Ten Dead In Buffalo, New York

[djAdvocate]

May 16, 2022 6:58:27 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Arizona Republican is claiming the gunman was a federal agent.

Yes, a federal agent at 17 who cleverly posted a 180 page racist manifesto so he could shoot up a grocery store a year later.

Anything is better than admitting it’s too easy to get guns in this country.

Speaking of guns, there was an armed ex cop security guard at the store who shot the shooter three times but couldn’t penetrate the body armor. The gunman killed him.

So I guess we don’t need good men with guns all around to stop the bad guys - everyone needs to be armed and also wearing full body armor all the time, to thwart the crazies with guns.

well, that is certainly A solution.

[happyhoix]

May 16, 2022 20:27:25 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 16, 2022 6:58:27 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Arizona Republican is claiming the gunman was a federal agent.

Yes, a federal agent at 17 who cleverly posted a 180 page racist manifesto so he could shoot up a grocery store a year later.

Anything is better than admitting it’s too easy to get guns in this country.

Speaking of guns, there was an armed ex cop security guard at the store who shot the shooter three times but couldn’t penetrate the body armor. The gunman killed him.

So I guess we don’t need good men with guns all around to stop the bad guys - everyone needs to be armed and also wearing full body armor all the time, to thwart the crazies with guns.

Already? I thought the Repubs were still in the "thoughts and prayers" phase. You know the one right before they turn around and ignore anything THAT bad happened - followed by whining about how we should not deprive the "good" ones for the actions of the lone wolves. Lime invading their privacy (HA the hypocrites -guns are worthy of privacy while human bodies are supposedly not) and confiscate their guns...

I know - she rocketed right through the tots and pears part and went directly to crazy town.

we have Alex Jones to thank for the whole ‘false flag’ bullshit. No need to mourn if no one actually died - they’re all just feds and actors!

GOP is an inhuman shit show these days. 

[teen persuasion]

My state senator has decided NY needs to bring the death penalty back.

NY Republican leaders want death penalty

... We do not tolerate racism. We do not tolerate terrorism. We do not tolerate acts of extreme violence on innocent civilians. We must bring capital punishment back to our state today, and deliver the only justice that is appropriate in this case and to ensure acts such as these never happen again.”

So very pro-life.

Ya know, Rob, I'd really prefer you start with banning assault rifles, before you go all eye for an eye. Cut down the number of deaths that have to occur before you get your legal vengeance; an ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure. Besides, threat of death doesn't really deter these guys.

[happyhoix]

May 16, 2022 21:29:20 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

My state senator has decided NY needs to bring the death penalty back.

NY Republican leaders want death penalty

... We do not tolerate racism. We do not tolerate terrorism. We do not tolerate acts of extreme violence on innocent civilians. We must bring capital punishment back to our state today, and deliver the only justice that is appropriate in this case and to ensure acts such as these never happen again.”

So very pro-life.

Ya know, Rob, I'd really prefer you start with banning assault rifles, before you go all eye for an eye. Cut down the number of deaths that have to occur before you get your legal vengeance; an ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure. Besides, threat of death doesn't really deter these guys.

You are correct. Delusional people aren’t deterred by the death penalty,

I would like New York to do an in-depth root cause investigation into why, when this kid talked about mass murder a year ago and the school reported this to the cops, they didn’t put him on the list of people not allowed to buy firearms.

That wouldn’t have guaranteed this guy couldn’t get a gun, given how easy it is to circumvent those laws, but it would be a good starting point in figuring out what needs to change to make sure crazy people can’t get guns.

[teen persuasion]

May 17, 2022 8:48:44 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

May 16, 2022 21:29:20 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

My state senator has decided NY needs to bring the death penalty back.

NY Republican leaders want death penalty

So very pro-life.

Ya know, Rob, I'd really prefer you start with banning assault rifles, before you go all eye for an eye. Cut down the number of deaths that have to occur before you get your legal vengeance; an ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure. Besides, threat of death doesn't really deter these guys.

You are correct. Delusional people aren’t deterred by the death penalty,

I would like New York to do an in-depth root cause investigation into why, when this kid talked about mass murder a year ago and the school reported this to the cops, they didn’t put him on the list of people not allowed to buy firearms.

That wouldn’t have guaranteed this guy couldn’t get a gun, given how easy it is to circumvent those laws, but it would be a good starting point in figuring out what needs to change to make sure crazy people can’t get guns.

From bits I've seen, it was up to the school to pursue it further.  The school dropped it, so law enforcement was out of the loop.

The presumption is that the school doesn't want to ruin his life by labeling him mentally ill or a potential mass murderer (a la Minority Report), so err on the side of doing too little instead of too much.

We need to stop stigmatizing mental health issues (so that we're afraid to label it), and push for treating mental health as the part of overall health, and healthcare, it should be.

The thing is, I'm not convinced he's crazy. Our current political climate has normalized his beliefs, normalized violence like this. If we don't want citizens to do things like this, we shouldn't encourage them to own the tools to do this. No one NEEDS an assault rifle, full stop. I'd liken it to the original Catch-22 thought process: if you even think you want to own an assault rifle, then you definitely shouldn't be eligible to get one. If you didn't want one, you could be eligible, but you'd never want it to begin with.

[teen persuasion]

The other problem with Ortt and the other Republicans bringing back the death penalty in response to this, is the message it sends: revenge killing IS the answer.

No, NO, we don't want more killing, we want less. No more knee-jerk responses after the fact, how about some proactive moves to reduce violence and death?

I can only conclude that doesn't fit with that party's agenda, based on their lack of platform, and their actions, over and over and over.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

DH and I debated this too. I said we have hordes of white men in particular who are experiencing massive social upheaval with no assistance in adjusting to it being spoon fed a diet of victimization and hate by Fox News and an entire government party.

Add to that the message in America about good guys with guns. You're a hero if you defend your neighbors from a black kid walking through. Cops are found not guilty for shooting people who were asleep in their homes.

What kind of breeding ground do you think you're creating here?

This isn't a line crazy. This is an entirely radicalized group. We're growing
Our own terrorists. This is only going to get worse.

[swamp]

May 17, 2022 8:48:44 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

May 16, 2022 21:29:20 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

My state senator has decided NY needs to bring the death penalty back.

NY Republican leaders want death penalty

So very pro-life.

Ya know, Rob, I'd really prefer you start with banning assault rifles, before you go all eye for an eye. Cut down the number of deaths that have to occur before you get your legal vengeance; an ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure. Besides, threat of death doesn't really deter these guys.

You are correct. Delusional people aren’t deterred by the death penalty,

I would like New York to do an in-depth root cause investigation into why, when this kid talked about mass murder a year ago and the school reported this to the cops, they didn’t put him on the list of people not allowed to buy firearms.

That wouldn’t have guaranteed this guy couldn’t get a gun, given how easy it is to circumvent those laws, but it would be a good starting point in figuring out what needs to change to make sure crazy people can’t get guns.

The WaPo is reporting that he told everyone it was a joke to get out of class and kept the story up.   He wrote about it in his manifestos. 

[Tennesseer]

The Right’s Violence Problem
The Buffalo killings are part of a pattern: Most extremist violence in the U.S. comes from the political right.

Over the past decade, the Anti-Defamation League has counted about 450 U.S. murders committed by political extremists.

Of these 450 killings, right-wing extremists committed about 75 percent. Islamic extremists were responsible for about 20 percent, and left-wing extremists were responsible for 4 percent.

Nearly half of the murders were specifically tied to white supremacists:




As this data shows, the American political right has a violence problem that has no equivalent on the left. And the 10 victims in Buffalo this past weekend are now part of this toll. “Right-wing extremist violence is our biggest threat,” Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, has written. “The numbers don’t lie.”

The pattern extends to violence less severe than murder, like the Jan. 6 attack on Congress. It also extends to the language from some Republican politicians — including Donald Trump — and conservative media figures that treats violence as a legitimate form of political expression. A much larger number of Republican officials do not use this language but also do not denounce it or punish politicians who do use it; Kevin McCarthy, the top House Republican, is a leading example.

It’s important to emphasize that not all extremist violence comes from the right — and that the precise explanation for any one attack can be murky, involving a mixture of ideology, mental illness, gun access and more. In the immediate aftermath of an attack, people are sometimes too quick to claim a direct cause and effect. But it is also incorrect to pretend that right-wing violence and left-wing violence are equivalent problems.

Fears in Washington
If you talk to members of Congress and their aides these days — especially off the record — you will often hear them mention their fears of violence being committed against them.

Some Republican members of Congress have said that they were reluctant to vote for Trump’s impeachment or conviction partly because of the threats against other members who had already denounced him. House Republicans who voted for President Biden’s infrastructure bill also received threats. Democrats say their offices receive a spike in phone calls and online messages threatening violence after they are criticized on conservative social media or cable television shows.

People who oversee elections report similar problems. “One in six elec­tion offi­cials have exper­i­enced threats because of their job,” the Brennan Center, a research group, reported this year. “Ranging from death threats that name offi­cials’ young chil­dren to racist and gendered harass­ment, these attacks have forced elec­tion offi­cials across the coun­try to take steps like hiring personal secur­ity, flee­ing their homes, and putting their chil­dren into coun­sel­ing.”

Rest of article here: The Right’s Violence Problem

[happyhoix]

May 17, 2022 10:01:47 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

The other problem with Ortt and the other Republicans bringing back the death penalty in response to this, is the message it sends: revenge killing IS the answer.

No, NO, we don't want more killing, we want less. No more knee-jerk responses after the fact, how about some proactive moves to reduce violence and death?

I can only conclude that doesn't fit with that party's agenda, based on their lack of platform, and their actions, over and over and over.

They’re terrified they’ll be labeled gun grabbers. Here in the South, all the gop candidates have commercials showing them carrying their guns around.

A former poster on here told me once that if you start taking guns away from angry men, they’ll start taking guns from every guy who beats his wife.

Personally, I think that’s a great idea, given the statistics about women getting killed by their spouses. At least have a mandatory cooling off period before you get your armory back. But for the GOP that’s gun grabbing.

[djAdvocate]

this has been the case for years.  maybe decades.
nobody on the right acknowledges it.

[teen persuasion]

Tucker Carlson was trying to call the shooter mentally ill, and Twitter was having none of it.

As many pointed out, he methodically planned out his attack, stockpiled ammo and guns, researched where to go, decided against attacking an elementary school (because he thought it would be more secured), did on-site reconnaissance beforehand, wore body armor and brought a first aid kit to deal with any injuries he sustained, and even apologized to a white person for *almost* shooting them. He is SANE, not mentally ill.

At the same time, many repeatedly insisted that racism != mental illness, and to stop equating the two, because of the real injury it does to those actually suffering from mental illness.

Of course, many also pointed out that the shooter clearly espoused Tucker's Great Replacement Theory, so if he's labeling the shooter as mentally ill, and they think alike ...

[djAdvocate]

if mentally ill defines his audience, then yes.

he is mentally ill.

[bean29]

May 16, 2022 11:16:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

May 16, 2022 11:05:59 GMT -5 swamp said:

You mean by actually being pro life? 

I believe Irishpad has a complicated situation - as he is an "ordained minister" kind of person.... and so is honor/duty bound to uphold the laws/rules of the position he holds in his religious organization.  A kind of conflict of interest in this conversation.      

Yeah, I am ok with this. I am. Pro Choice. My Mom & her friends have been Pro-Life most of my life. They have participated in food pantries, meal programs, in the 60’s the women in Mom’s Church were teaching inner city women to sew so they could get jobs as seamstresses. One of my Mom’s good friends is one of the only Black members of their church. They were part of my parents monthly lunch group and really part of church leadership (accepted). There are also a few of the members of that group that have homosexual children. They are not disowned, and it is not hidden. It is not quite recognized, but not hidden, and no one in that group would accept eliminating people (by murder). Their solution is to pray for change. I am fine with that because their prayers are as likely to move them to change (acceptance) as they are to make the homosexual individual “normal”.

I really would like to see the church advocating for jobs/food/housing/healthcare solutions for the poor. They need to demand more for their votes than they have in the past. I hope they can advocate for exception of life/health of the mother/rape/incest.

Just saying oh they are racist and don’t care about babies once they are born is not true. That is the next issue. Churches are full of older people, not young people. There is not a lot they can do other than pray/vote/donate. I have taken. My Mom to Church 3x in the last Month. Most people there are 50-80 years old. The parking lot is in very bad shape and needs replacing. Will be very expensive to do.

Republicans used these people as a wedge issue. Their focus is going to move on to something else, and you can bet it will not line up with past republican talking points.

[bean29]

May 17, 2022 9:47:15 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

May 17, 2022 8:48:44 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

You are correct. Delusional people aren’t deterred by the death penalty,

I would like New York to do an in-depth root cause investigation into why, when this kid talked about mass murder a year ago and the school reported this to the cops, they didn’t put him on the list of people not allowed to buy firearms.

That wouldn’t have guaranteed this guy couldn’t get a gun, given how easy it is to circumvent those laws, but it would be a good starting point in figuring out what needs to change to make sure crazy people can’t get guns.

From bits I've seen, it was up to the school to pursue it further.  The school dropped it, so law enforcement was out of the loop.

The presumption is that the school doesn't want to ruin his life by labeling him mentally ill or a potential mass murderer (a la Minority Report), so err on the side of doing too little instead of too much.

We need to stop stigmatizing mental health issues (so that we're afraid to label it), and push for treating mental health as the part of overall health, and healthcare, it should be.

The thing is, I'm not convinced he's crazy. Our current political climate has normalized his beliefs, normalized violence like this. If we don't want citizens to do things like this, we shouldn't encourage them to own the tools to do this. No one NEEDS an assault rifle, full stop. I'd liken it to the original Catch-22 thought process: if you even think you want to own an assault rifle, then you definitely shouldn't be eligible to get one. If you didn't want one, you could be eligible, but you'd never want it to begin with.

Nearly every state has involuntary commitment laws. Basically you can not be forced into treatment against your will (unless you are a danger to yourself or others). You can not be forced to take meds or talk to a psychiatrist. There must be a commitment hearing. My Mom said there was one once for my Dad and it was hell and she never wanted to go through it again. There is nothing the school could do other than notify law enforcement.

[happyhoix]

May 17, 2022 21:00:14 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Tucker Carlson was trying to call the shooter mentally ill, and Twitter was having none of it.

As many pointed out, he methodically planned out his attack, stockpiled ammo and guns, researched where to go, decided against attacking an elementary school (because he thought it would be more secured), did on-site reconnaissance beforehand, wore body armor and brought a first aid kit to deal with any injuries he sustained, and even apologized to a white person for *almost* shooting them. He is SANE, not mentally ill.

At the same time, many repeatedly insisted that racism != mental illness, and to stop equating the two, because of the real injury it does to those actually suffering from mental illness.

Of course, many also pointed out that the shooter clearly espoused Tucker's Great Replacement Theory, so if he's labeling the shooter as mentally ill, and they think alike ...

Do what was Tuckers point, that sometimes there are mentally ill people around, and sometimes they shoot ten people for no reason, and there’s nothing that can be done about it?

Or is he saying Biden and the Dems caused the guy to be mentally ill?

[teen persuasion]

May 18, 2022 5:15:52 GMT -5 bean29 said:

May 17, 2022 9:47:15 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

From bits I've seen, it was up to the school to pursue it further.  The school dropped it, so law enforcement was out of the loop.

The presumption is that the school doesn't want to ruin his life by labeling him mentally ill or a potential mass murderer (a la Minority Report), so err on the side of doing too little instead of too much.

We need to stop stigmatizing mental health issues (so that we're afraid to label it), and push for treating mental health as the part of overall health, and healthcare, it should be.

The thing is, I'm not convinced he's crazy. Our current political climate has normalized his beliefs, normalized violence like this. If we don't want citizens to do things like this, we shouldn't encourage them to own the tools to do this. No one NEEDS an assault rifle, full stop. I'd liken it to the original Catch-22 thought process: if you even think you want to own an assault rifle, then you definitely shouldn't be eligible to get one. If you didn't want one, you could be eligible, but you'd never want it to begin with.

Nearly every state has involuntary commitment laws. Basically you can not be forced into treatment against your will (unless you are a danger to yourself or others). You can not be forced to take meds or talk to a psychiatrist. There must be a commitment hearing. My Mom said there was one once for my Dad and it was hell and she never wanted to go through it again. There is nothing the school could do other than notify law enforcement.

This wasn't about commitment, it was about invoking the red flag laws - to take away your guns/weapons (temporarily), if you are deemed a threat to others or yourself.

It was something Police Commissioner Gramaglia said in a press conference on local news.  Of course, I can't find *that* soundbite online.  It was essentially: Someone asked why the red flag laws hadn't kicked in, if he'd made previous comments and law enforcement was notified.  Gramaglia said LE had done their part, he was evaluated, and the ball was back in the school's court.  It was up to the school whether to choose to do *something*, or choose NOT to do something.  School chose to do nothing, LE had no options.

[laterbloomer]

It's one thing to read about how fairly civilized societies devolved into fascist states in the past, it's a totally different experience to watch it happen in front of you and feel totally powerless to do anything about it.

[Tennesseer]

Opinion: What a Nobel laureate's take on Donald Trump reveals about today

Shortly after Donald Trump was elected President of the United States, Nobel laureate Toni Morrison wrote in The New Yorker: "Unlike any nation in Europe, the United States holds whiteness as the unifying force. Here, for many people, the definition of 'Americanness' is color." Reflecting on efforts -- largely by White men -- to define themselves by sustaining that poisonous definition, Morrison argues that those "who are prepared to abandon their humanity out of fear of black men and women, suggest the true horror of lost status."

In Morrison's formulation, fear-driven devotion to racial status is more powerful to many White Americans than even self-interest, shame or any belief in humanity. And it is this reality, that White Americans' anxieties in the face of a changing country have been and continue to be weaponized with disastrous and violent results, that has been instrumental in fueling the spread of so-called "replacement theory," the false and bigoted claim that elites are conspiring to replace Whites with minorities.

Morrison passed away in 2019, but her words echoed with a prescient rattle this week. They hovered, hauntingly, over a Tops grocery store in a majority-Black East Buffalo neighborhood, where a young White man livestreamed the racist mass killing of 10 people. The alleged shooter also posted a hateful rant self-identifying as a White supremacist and expressing a belief in replacement theory.

"Racism, anti-Semitism and a resentment of immigrants are nothing new," emphasized Frida Ghitis. "What is new is that in America, a land of diversity and immigrants, what used to be a fringe theory has found sympathetic voices in one of the two main political parties."

Ghitis diagnosed deep irony that the "growing threat to democracy in the United States is occurring at a moment when US foreign policy has accomplished an extraordinary, historic feat; one that among other things serves to fortify democracy around the world." That feat? Shoring up NATO, which is attracting new members, and leading America's allies with a cohort that may soon include Sweden and Finland. "It's a high point in America's global leadership," Ghitis concluded, "but only if you look at it with one eye closed."

Like Morrison, theologian and activist Keith Magee pondered the brutal, dehumanizing cost of a race-fueled fear of change on all Americans. Writing specifically as a Black father of a young Black son, Magee addressed White teenage males after the slaughter in Buffalo to express empathy with the change and trauma of 21st century pandemic life -- and ask a question.

"Because you are male, you were born a winner of the patriarchal jackpot. You are more likely to rise to the top of the career ladder and will be better paid on your way up. The state will not attempt to dictate what you can and cannot do with your own body. On top of that, because you are White, and you live in a country that is structurally racist, you enjoy the huge privilege your skin color gives you ... My question to you is this -- what are you going to do with all that luck?"

He urged young White American men to consider that "luck, like love, is unlimited. The more you share it, the more there is to go around. You will not lose your place in the world if other people are no longer marginalized."

Dean Obeidallah rejected the toxic notion that Whiteness could ever define American identity, arguing that that "demographic change is nothing to fear in America. In fact, it's part of what makes our nation so exceptional ... It's why on the Great Seal of the United States we see the words in Latin, 'E Pluribus Unum' -- which means 'Out of Many, One.' Those who reject that philosophy to instead embrace the 'Great Replacement Theory' are literally rejecting what it means to be American."

In the wake of a horrific event like the Buffalo massacre, people understandably search for solutions, noted Nicole Hemmer, who observed that the "problem of radicalization and right-wing violence is a deeply entrenched and difficult one, one with complexities that require a society-wide approach across political and social institutions to address ... That endeavor is made more difficult by staunch conservative opposition to necessary reforms. Which doesn't mean it will be impossible to defang right-wing radicalism, but rather that Americans will have to enact systemic changes over the long-term to bring that violence under control."

Opinion: What a Nobel laureate's take on Donald Trump reveals about today

[NastyWoman]

WHAT THE F***?

This has to be the most idiotic thing ever and I hope Ben Collins, who came up with this shit, loses his job over this.

www.rawstory.com/buffalo-payton-gendron-toothache/

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

IDK if you read the article but the guy is an expert in radicalism and was discussing how it can start.

Dude is already on a platform saying Jews are evil.

Dude is struggling to obtain dental care and oh guess what the dentist is Jewish.

Now confirmation bias is going to kick in. Now he's going to look for more "proof" these people are right.

And if Jews are conspiring who else is?

I'll have to find the title but I just got done reading a book discussing this using the flat earth movement.

I was shocked reading interviews from devout flat Esther's where their conversion started from things as innocuous as a tooth ache could be.

Then once the possibility of a flat earth was open to discussion it became what else am I being lied to about?

People tend to assume these shootings are line mad gunmen and there's nothing we can do.

In reality they are average Joe's dissatisfied with life surfing the web in places who.are feeding them.the narrative that there is always someone to blame.

All it takes is one anecdote (Hey my dentist who won't see me is Jewish!) and our biological hardworking kicks in and down the wormhole people go.


ETA: here's the title

Off the edge : flat Earthers, conspiracy culture, and why people will believe anything 

It was really enlightening but also hella disturbing to realize how easy it can be to convert someone to something so illogical 

[tallguy]

May 23, 2022 12:15:14 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

All it takes is one anecdote (Hey my dentist who won't see me is Jewish!) and our biological hardworking kicks in and down.the wormhole people go.

I'm thinking you meant down the rabbit hole.  Wormhole has a different meaning entirely in science and science fiction.  

As a general rule I think it is wise to not get your holes mixed up.  Just sayin'    

[Tennesseer]

Poor flat Esther.

(Damn spellcheck.)

[teen persuasion]

DS5 just learned the state cancelled his American History Regents exam - because state officials are concerned the civil rights issues on the test might be *too* close to home right now for those still dealing with the aftermath of the shooting. The AH Regents was scheduled for June 1, just next week (which is EARLY).

He's a junior, and hasn't yet taken ANY Regents in HS because they've been cancelled due to Covid the past 2 years, and now this one too. No science, no math, no language. Junior year is usually the big Regents year, with Eng3 and AH on top of the yearly math and science. How are colleges supposed to evaluate this generation of kids, with no markers to compare them to? And how do you qualify for a Regents Diploma (let alone an Advanced Regents Diploma) if over half the tests were cancelled?

[teen persuasion]

Garland announced federal charges against Buffalo shooter (we don't say his name, here).

And in other news: college basketball recruit arrested for possession of LOTS of guns and ammo in his fanny pack and car - just blocks from the site of the shooting. The college's athletic facility is ON Jefferson Ave.

link

Dude, you may not be local, but bringing all those guns to college? One month to the day after the shooting?

[teen persuasion]

NY AG suing gun parts manufacturers, to get ghost guns off the streets.

Attorney General James uses national gun distributors fueling gun violence crisis