Die with Zero

[minnesotapaintlady]

Anyone read this book and care to discuss?  Since I paid for an audible subscription for the whole year I'm getting all kinds of "reading" in lately and this one came highly recommended on a few financial sites. Many people considered it "life changing". 

I don't know.  I think I have to listen to it again with more focus because I'm struggling with the concepts a bit, either that, or I'm just not the target audience. 

[Mrs. Dinero]

Is this in line with “your last check written should bounce”? Meaning spend YOUR hard earned money while you’re alive.

[nidena]

Based on the title, I could see that as a goal to strive for, assuming on the day before I die, I have "enough". 

<off to find this book now>

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 12, 2022 14:52:48 GMT -5 Mrs. Dinero said:

Is this in line with “your last check written should bounce”? Meaning spend YOUR hard earned money while you’re alive.

Not quite to that extreme, it advocates having enough to last you your entire life, but no more.  It's more about not dying with millions than dying broke.  Gifting and enjoying your money while you're alive. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

I think that one of the issues for me is that the difference between what will be just enough (in terms of you reitre and start drawdown in such a way as that you deplete yearly just a bit, but that depletion excellerates as you go on) and what will have enough moment to keep going and increasing into eternity - is not a huge difference. It could be just b-12 more months of working/saving to be the difference in outcome.

Given the uncertainties of planning and modeling and prediction - you might lose out on either scheme and not have enough for you lst few years. 

[dannylion]

People should probably do with their money whatever they think is best for them and their families, even if someone who knows nothing about them or their families writes a book telling them to do something else with it.  

Life is stressful enough already without some random person butting in and handing out unsolicited advice that might work for them but not necessarily for everyone.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 12, 2022 18:58:07 GMT -5 dannylion said:

Life is stressful enough already without some random person butting in and handing out unsolicited advice that might work for them but not necessarily for everyone.  

Is it really unsolicited if I bought the book?  

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2022 18:06:00 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Given the uncertainties of planning and modeling and prediction - you might lose out on either scheme and not have enough for your last few years. 

That would be my concern.  Mom and Dad, God bless 'em, overshot the mark and Dad, who outlived Mom by 5 years, left a decent sized estate (but not multi-millions).  Mom died in hospice care at home and Dad was in LTC for 18 months but sale of the house more than paid for that.  If one had been in LTC for years and the other in the house and then LTC it could have been a totally different story.

My investments have been increasing at 3.5% a year in the 8 years since I retired (that might be down a bit now).  I do NOT want to shoot for zero and leave DS and DDIL hunting around for a decent LTC place for me that takes Medicaid if I can possibly avoid it.

[busymom]

Life is too unpredictable to "know" when you'll die, or to be able to figure how much money you'll need at the end of your life.  My Mom would've been appalled at how much was spent first on assisted living, and then the nursing home at the end of her life.  Plus, even with her health issues, she lasted far longer than the doctors predicted she would.


For me personally, I want to be able to leave something for the next generation.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Again, I don't think he's saying to literally "Die with Zero".  He advocates making sure you have enough to take care of yourself until you die, but so many set a goal and keep upping the bar and working longer and hoarding money "just in case".  

Still, I think he's coming from a place different than me where he has WAY more than enough.  For example, for his 45th birthday he flew all his family to St. Bart's for a weeklong party and hired Natalie Merchant to play a private concert. 

[dannylion]

Apr 12, 2022 19:07:35 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 12, 2022 18:58:07 GMT -5 dannylion said:

Life is stressful enough already without some random person butting in and handing out unsolicited advice that might work for them but not necessarily for everyone.  

Is it really unsolicited if I bought the book?  

Or maybe by buying the book you just created another layer of the same issue.  Now the author has more money to worry about getting rid of before he/she dies in order to achieve his/her goal.  Whatever the author chooses as a goal is not a problem, advocating the same goal for others (everyone? -- haven't read the book and don't plan to do so) for whom it is not a good fit is where the problem arises.  If it's a good fit, then fine; but it's also okay to read the book, say "well, that was interesting, but I'm not going to do that," and then not give it any more thought.  

[CCL]

Just checked and my library has it for free so I'll check it out.

I think it gets a lot more complicated even you are married. Two lifetimes to try to predict and provide for.

[TheOtherMe]

I am not worrying about leaving anything to my heirs.  I'm not married and have no children.  My cats can not inherit money.  

My will is currently being redone.  It was emailed to me last week but my address was wrong so that had to be corrected.  Anything I have (which will mostly be the equity in my house) will be divided equally between my four niece and nephews.

I have told the one who said he will act as executor to take his fee even if it means his siblings get nothing because he will have a house to sell if all goes as planned.

[nidena]

Apr 12, 2022 20:14:00 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I am not worrying about leaving anything to my heirs.  I'm not married and have no children.  My cats can not inherit money.  

My will is currently being redone.  It was emailed to me last week but my address was wrong so that had to be corrected.  Anything I have (which will mostly be the equity in my house) will be divided equally between my four niece and nephews.

I have told the one who said he will act as executor to take his fee even if it means his siblings get nothing because he will have a house to sell if all goes as planned.

I feel like I could have typed that as well.  Though my executor is my SIL with my nephew being next in line.

I have a feeling that my own life will be lived spending the money as it comes in with a small amount going into savings for the later years in case the pension, disability, and social security aren't enough when the time comes.

[CCL]

I read two chapters. So far, I think the guy's kinda boring.

[plugginaway22]

I would be interested in reading it. My grandparents lived so frugally and died with over a million. Never spent or gave any of it away 'in case'. My Dad was 65 and retired when he inherited and we all were sad that they never spent any of it. But maybe their happiness was felt knowing that their children would be the recipients, even though by that time neither needed it.

I want to enjoy sharing my money with our kids while I am alive. But the magic formula to give while keeping enough is elusive.

[buystoys]

I agree with the concept, but do worry about having enough should DH or I need LTC.  I know we won't spend it all with our regular spending.  Well, unless a lot of drastic things happen.  Based on our eight years of retirement, we'll be in good shape.  There's no way to tell the future, though.  Since we're at the tail end of the Boomers, there is a lot that can change about LTC costs and that makes it really difficult to plan as it is.

If I had a working crystal ball, I'd be happy to spend my last dollar. 

[Happy prose]

Apr 12, 2022 19:21:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Again, I don't think he's saying to literally "Die with Zero".  He advocates making sure you have enough to take care of yourself until you die, but so many set a goal and keep upping the bar and working longer and hoarding money "just in case".  

Still, I think he's coming from a place different than me where he has WAY more than enough.  For example, for his 45th birthday he flew all his family to St. Bart's for a weeklong party and hired Natalie Merchant to play a private concert. 

I'd say he has a few more dollars than I do. 

[wvugurl26]

I think the problem is predicting just how much you need. LTC can eat up the money in a hurry. I think there is wisdom to spending some throughout your life. Gifts earlier in life could have a lot more impact than after your death.

My grandma on mom's side has been (begrudgingly) giving gifts now. They said it's what they wanted to do when grandpa was still alive. So my aunt has pushed her to do so. She would absolutely be the person going around acting poor, chasing a nickel savings at the grocery store to end up leaving millions.

Gifts to her younger set of grandchildren now could absolutely have much more impact than a pile of cash when she's dead. They are college age, getting started in life.

If DH's parents died now, each sibling would get a 7 figure inheritance. I would rather they enjoy some of that money now. They worked hard for it. It's their money but we've tried to encourage them to think about what they want to do. And ways to give now and avoid some of the tax bite for us later.

BIL/SIL inherited $100k and it just went to the taxes mostly. I know nice problems to have. But I feel if you can do some estate planning and think about options its a nice thing to do.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 13, 2022 4:59:58 GMT -5 Happy prose said:

Apr 12, 2022 19:21:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Again, I don't think he's saying to literally "Die with Zero".  He advocates making sure you have enough to take care of yourself until you die, but so many set a goal and keep upping the bar and working longer and hoarding money "just in case".  

Still, I think he's coming from a place different than me where he has WAY more than enough.  For example, for his 45th birthday he flew all his family to St. Bart's for a weeklong party and hired Natalie Merchant to play a private concert. 

I'd say he has a few more dollars than I do. 

Yeah, I read he has a 60M net worth.  Was a hedge fund manager/CEO. 

A lot of it made me think though, especially about scheduling things off of your bucket list all through your life instead of saving them all up for the end when you might have all the time and money, but not the health to do so. 

I do think his target audience are those hoarding millions, but still, something to think about.  I mean last year I squirreled nearly 50% of my gross away for retirement.  Did I really need to do that?  Probably not?  Could I have taken 10K of that and taken the kids on another Alaskan cruise complete with sled dog excursion instead and not had my retirement affected at all?  Probably.  More than likely I will die with that 10K and all it's associated earnings over the next 30 years still in my account.

[Deleted]

While I can agree with giving away money you don't need, especially to causes that are important to you and to family members facing college expenses or who could use a down payment on a house, some of us have notions of what it means to "enjoy life" that don't cost what we could safely spend. I'm sure Mom and Dad felt that way. They lived in a small home in N. Myrtle Breach, saw no need to travel, especially as they got into their 80s, and drove modest cars although they replaced them every 4-5 years. Unlike me, Mom wasn't into fine jewelry and they sure weren't interested in designer clothes.

In my case- I'm also not interested in designer clothes or handbags, I drive a Honda Civic, I make 2 major trips per year and a lot of smaller road trips and I love the house I'm in with its $60K mortgage balance. I have a pile of fine jewelry and rarely add to it at this point.  Yesterday I was tickled pink to get 92 cents/gallon off of gas with my grocery store loyalty card.  I filled up the gas can for my lawn mower, too!

So, I AM enjoying my money and don't need to buy more Stuff to spend down faster. I'm grateful to be in this position.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 13, 2022 7:28:52 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

So, I AM enjoying my money and don't need to buy more Stuff to spend down faster. I'm grateful to be in this position.

He pushes experiences, not stuff.  He actually cautions a lot about spending on stuff.

More like, you want to tour Europe on the cheap staying in hostels?  Do that in your 20's.  Want to climb Mt. Everest?  Better not put that off until retirement in your 60's. 

[saveinla]

This is somewhat of what we do - we paid for our son's undergraduate education and paid off the loans that he took, so that he did not have to start his life with loans. He is doing his PhD on his own. We will also pay for whatever choice of wedding he wants and will help him as much as we can (and he will allow) when we are alive. 

Currently he needs a new car but will not accept our help, so I know it will be a struggle. 

[bean29]

Apr 12, 2022 19:21:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Again, I don't think he's saying to literally "Die with Zero".  He advocates making sure you have enough to take care of yourself until you die, but so many set a goal and keep upping the bar and working longer and hoarding money "just in case".  

Still, I think he's coming from a place different than me where he has WAY more than enough.  For example, for his 45th birthday he flew all his family to St. Bart's for a weeklong party and hired Natalie Merchant to play a private concert. 

LOL, I hear you on that.

I would think the goal to have enough to take care of yourself until you die, and live a good life with the $$ you have rather than leaving a sizeable estate, would make sense.  My Mom inherited from an Aunt who always talked about building her Dream Home, but never did it.  She left an estate big enough that my Aunt said she could have build her Dream home and redecorated it several times.  We can deny ourselves luxuries to pass on wealth to our children, but we can't force them to save/invest it wisely.  If they choose to spend it on hookers and blow, they can.  

If that is what they will do with it, I would rather spend it on myself.

[NastyWoman]

Apr 13, 2022 8:27:07 GMT -5 saveinla said:

This is somewhat of what we do - we paid for our son's undergraduate education and paid off the loans that he took, so that he did not have to start his life with loans. He is doing his PhD on his own. We will also pay for whatever choice of wedding he wants and will help him as much as we can (and he will allow) when we are alive. 

Currently he needs a new car but will not accept our help, so I know it will be a struggle. 

That brought back some really fond memories. In 2007 DS2 was in that same position but he had decided that he wanted to buy my car (and I would get a new one).  I was totally fine with the concept but just wanted to gift him my 11yo car. DS2 was not having that. He wanted to buy the car. So we entered into a strange situation where he the buyer kept trying to up the price and I, the seller, did everything I could come up with to get that number as low as possible. Little scratch - big deduction as the car was not pristine. Low mileage and good maintenance records?  Try to get the price up... you get the gist. Ultimately we settled on a number, I handed over the keys and then added in some money to replace the car battery as I had not "gotten around to do it". He thought that was cheating, and it was since that battery still had a few years of life in it, but ultimately he accepted the deal. 

[movingforward]

I might try and read it...I am a SINK so not worried about leaving money to anyone. Lately, I have been loosening the purse strings a bit.

I don't currently have a will in place and need to start putting something together. Hopefully, I will live a lot longer and this will could possibly be redone several times. I talked to my best friend about leaving her my townhouse if something unexpected were to happen. I have an elderly cat and I don't want him uprooted. If something were to happen to me he would be upset enough with my absence, I don't want to put any further stress on him. She could come and live in my house and take care of him.

I would like to set up some sort of trust for the local humane society and Meals on Wheels.

At any rate, I'm not looking to die with a large sum of money. My goal right now though is to hoard enough money to really enjoy things when I no longer have to work. I visualize spending a lot on travel in my 50s and 60s while I am young enough to enjoy it. Life doesn't always work out the way you want but I sure hope I have the freedom and the funds to make this happen.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I think something like this is a fine balance to walk.  We have talked about gifting money, but at this point we are doing our damnedest to see everything we want to see and do while we are still capable.  When we slow down, then gifting will be come an option for us.  

Right now, I am choosing middle of the line accommodations for our trips but TD keeps talking about possibly bumping things up a level.  My concern is that once you bump up, it is very difficult to go back!  I don't want to experience the Explorer Suite, then have to go back to the cabin which I find more than satisfactory right now and find it wanting.  

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2022 7:48:08 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

He pushes experiences, not stuff.  He actually cautions a lot about spending on stuff.

More like, you want to tour Europe on the cheap staying in hostels?  Do that in your 20's.  Want to climb Mt. Everest?  Better not put that off until retirement in your 60's. 

I can agree with that! I spend a lot on experiences with my grandchildren but very little on Stuff. My flight to Germany next month will be in Business Class. As mich noted it's easy to get spoiled. I'd hate to do a long-haul in Coach now although I would if it were all I could afford. Having said that= I could take longer or more frequent major trips and I just don't want to. The longest I've done is 3 weeks- India and Nepal so it's good to maximize time when you travel that distance- but that was sort of my limit.

[geenamercile]

I like the concept.  I think it could be hard to plan for as living for 5 years longer than you think could throw a major wrench.  My goal is to be able to live off of my SS and Pension when I retire, use the savings for things I want.  I think it may be easier for me to plan to die with 0 since I have the pension that will stop when I die.  Also at this point I will only have to plan for myself.    

[tskeeter]

I think the idea of managingthe size of your estate has some merit.

Recently I did a couple of math exercises.  I projected what the RMD’s on our tIRA accounts would be.  And I estimated the growth of our net worth as a way to see what our estate is likely to be when we die.

I discovered that unless we found a way reduce the size of our tIRA’s, by the time we have to take RMD’s our RMD’s would be more than the $400K that Biden is proposing as the trigger point to be in the same federal income tax bracket tax Gates, Bezos, Buffett, and the like.

More importantly, the growth in our net worth is likely to subject a good portion of our estate to  40% federal estate tax.  A 65 year old couple with a net worth of $2 million could find that their well managed investment portfolio can grow to more than $24 million by the time the surviving spouse reaches their mid 90’s.  If you’re single with a $1 million nest egg, you could reach estate tax territory by your mid 90’s, too.  Given that DW’s family has a history of longevity (her Grandmother, born in 1885, lived to over 100 years old), our estate could continue to grow for another 30 or 40 years.  We think it’s best to give our estate to the people and organizations we want to benefit while we’re still alive, rather than turn it over to a bunch of Washington politicians to decide who will benefit from our decades of hard work.  Hint, we’re opposed to politicians using our estate to line their own pockets.