raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 22, 2022 14:50:10 GMT -5
But your more interested in blaming the borrowers then the behemoths that created the mess. Of course people do stupid things with their money. This board is probably 50/50 of all good decisions led them here and the other half found their way here trying to dig their way out. There are people who navigate student loans without problems. The ideal of the system as designed. But that doesn't mean the system isn't a problem. I truly can't comprehend how private student loans are allowed to exist as-is, but they do. Your focus is on the wrong place. It reads to me like you want to keep punishing the borrowers because some might buy a nicer house or car if they have lower student loan payments. Only by struggling and deprivation can someone deserve a comfortable life. You paid your dues so no one else should get a break (or in this case an ethical student loan system). Thanks this reply very well written I wish I could do better than ramble my thoughts on keyboard. I do believe the system is wonky and needs a serious overhaul. I recall in one of my posts I would like to see a study done on the student loan debt to people on how they basically spend their money. I'm not talking about punishing people but holding them accountable. We talk all over this board about digging out of debt, savings, sacrificing to save. Is it unreasonable to think that people should sacrifice to pay off student debt no matter how bad the system is? They are sacrificing. These loans never go away. Underemployed, unemployed, disabled, doesn't matter. To the point as @athenac points out- social security is garnished. It impacts home purchases and budgeting, fico scores driving insurance costs. You don't believe anyone should have a loan after 10 years, but your assuming that anyone who does is lazy and it's just not true. I know of plenty of examples of people doing their best and paying their loans, but never paying them off. Most of dh's coworkers honestly. The balances balloon sometimes because of poor choices, but mostly because of design. I think your over worried about paying someone else's way. Letting them get something that they don't deserve. Otherwise why fight the idea of student loan reform? And all we're talking about is reform. Student loans shouldn't be a money making business. At least not the way they're currently structured. Forgiveness in some form may be the cheapest way to fix the current system, but it's a shortterm fix. Not a long term plan for student loans going forward.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 22, 2022 15:00:56 GMT -5
Thanks this reply very well written I wish I could do better than ramble my thoughts on keyboard. I do believe the system is wonky and needs a serious overhaul. I recall in one of my posts I would like to see a study done on the student loan debt to people on how they basically spend their money. I'm not talking about punishing people but holding them accountable. We talk all over this board about digging out of debt, savings, sacrificing to save. Is it unreasonable to think that people should sacrifice to pay off student debt no matter how bad the system is? They are sacrificing. These loans never go away. Underemployed, unemployed, disabled, doesn't matter. To the point as @athenac points out- social security is garnished. It impacts home purchases and budgeting, fico scores driving insurance costs. You don't believe anyone should have a loan after 10 years, but your assuming that anyone who does is lazy and it's just not true. I know of plenty of examples of people doing their best and paying their loans, but never paying them off. Most of dh's coworkers honestly. The balances balloon sometimes because of poor choices, but mostly because of design. I think your over worried about paying someone else's way. Letting them get something that they don't deserve. Otherwise why fight the idea of student loan reform? And all we're talking about is reform. Student loans shouldn't be a money making business. At least not the way they're currently structured. Forgiveness in some form may be the cheapest way to fix the current system, but it's a shortterm fix. Not a long term plan for student loans going forward. I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several.
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pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 22, 2022 15:34:26 GMT -5
More nonsense without data to back it up. There are significant consequences to this. Medical school graduates make rational decisions to pay their loans back. They choose higher paying specialties and choose to live where their income potential is greater. That leads to imbalances in supply and shortages. Society will suffer in the long term without fixing this. But continue to beat this dead horse sbout people being irresponsible
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raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
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Post by raeoflyte on May 22, 2022 17:02:20 GMT -5
They are sacrificing. These loans never go away. Underemployed, unemployed, disabled, doesn't matter. To the point as @athenac points out- social security is garnished. It impacts home purchases and budgeting, fico scores driving insurance costs. You don't believe anyone should have a loan after 10 years, but your assuming that anyone who does is lazy and it's just not true. I know of plenty of examples of people doing their best and paying their loans, but never paying them off. Most of dh's coworkers honestly. The balances balloon sometimes because of poor choices, but mostly because of design. I think your over worried about paying someone else's way. Letting them get something that they don't deserve. Otherwise why fight the idea of student loan reform? And all we're talking about is reform. Student loans shouldn't be a money making business. At least not the way they're currently structured. Forgiveness in some form may be the cheapest way to fix the current system, but it's a shortterm fix. Not a long term plan for student loans going forward. I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several. I strongly disagree. Your system would mean that only kids from high income families could go to college and/or limit graduates for much needed but low(er) income professions. Sure people "complain". Paying on a loan for 10, 15, or 20 years and still owing the same amount or more sucks. Doesn't mean they aren't still making payments.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
Senior Member
So well rounded, I'm pointless...
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:49:31 GMT -5
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on May 22, 2022 21:56:19 GMT -5
They are sacrificing. These loans never go away. Underemployed, unemployed, disabled, doesn't matter. To the point as @athenac points out- social security is garnished. It impacts home purchases and budgeting, fico scores driving insurance costs. You don't believe anyone should have a loan after 10 years, but your assuming that anyone who does is lazy and it's just not true. I know of plenty of examples of people doing their best and paying their loans, but never paying them off. Most of dh's coworkers honestly. The balances balloon sometimes because of poor choices, but mostly because of design. I think your over worried about paying someone else's way. Letting them get something that they don't deserve. Otherwise why fight the idea of student loan reform? And all we're talking about is reform. Student loans shouldn't be a money making business. At least not the way they're currently structured. Forgiveness in some form may be the cheapest way to fix the current system, but it's a shortterm fix. Not a long term plan for student loans going forward. I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several. People who took loans out in the past 10 years are old enough to have seen the impact of the Great Recession and know how important it is to have a degree. Life with out one can be brutal, especially if you have no job or work history for an employer to consider instead. The costs of college are through the roof and you don’t want to be the one degree-less snd job searching when the next recession hits. I would say it is near impossible to cash flow college through work nowadays. I know you said you did snd I did also (for undergrad and masters). That was in the late 1990s-2008. But things have changed a lot. To give sone numbers,I got my BS in 2003. I worked full time + in manufacturing (making $12-$13 an hour) while going to school full time and was able to live good (I had a small apt shared with a friend. A newer car and cash flowed tuition and books). The cost at my state school was $850 a semester for full time, went up to $900 a semester for the last year. In 2010, my brother was going to another one of the state schools in that chain (similar quality, different geographic location). Cost has skyrocketed to $3200 per semester. It almost QUADRUPLED in less than 10 years. He was working part time in a sandwich shop (this was during the big recession... his area hadlike15-20%unrmployment so the fact that he was able to get even a part Time job, paying less than what I making 10 years early was at least something). Where would someone come up with $3200 a semester when they have a minimum wage job part time? Did he want to work part time? No. But could he get a better job full time with no degree in the middle of a recession? No. I was in the military at the time so I paid for his tuition for one semester (my parents scrapped together for the other semester and he got done). But how many people have siblings or relatives who have an extra $3200 sitting around? Most don’t. So your options are loans. He is smart and a hard worker but if you don’t have it, you don’t have it, I guess he could have kept scrapping by part time at the sandwich shop when what little you make goes to rent snd food. I looked at the costs today... like $3800 per semester for over 7 units, $2500 for 6 units or less
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on May 22, 2022 22:15:46 GMT -5
It's still possible to cash flow here (MN) if you live at home and are within commuting distance of a state school. Tuition and books runs 8-9K/year at the two by me. Not too hard to cover that making $15/hour part time during the school year and piling on more hours in the summer. My state also has a grant program that goes up to something like 120K income, so students coming from average income families would qualify for some of that as well. The flagship is free tuition if AGI is under 50K. Across the river in WI, the state schools are cheaper yet.
It's the "going away" to college part that gets spendy.
eta: Just ran the NPC on the school closest to us and with 80K AGI on the FAFSA, the state grant was $4750 off the $9500 tuition and fees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 23:57:39 GMT -5
It's the "going away" to college part that gets spendy. eta: Just ran the NPC on the school closest to us and with 80K AGI on the FAFSA, the state grant was $4750 off the $9500 tuition and fees. Agreed on the "going away" part. Schools seem to be trying to outdo each other with fancy dorms and someone has to pay for them- or you go to a place in a major city (CCNY, U. of Chicago) and you have to find your own place at crazy-high prices. DS is thinking that his kids will start Community College courses that will transfer to decent universities (I know that not all do). They're home-schooled so they can start those when they're ready. I'm still stashing away money in their 529s (well, except that little bit I spent on Business Class airfare to Munich for this trip ) because I want them to have options. There are also co-op programs- that's how Dad got through the University of Cincinnati, where it was pioneered. At the time it was available only in Engineering but it's since been expanded to many majors. You attend school for the entire first year, then alternate quarters between a co-op job and attending school. Typically you have the same co-op employer the entire time, with increasing levels of responsibility every time you return. At the time I went to UC, the Engineering majors could pretty much pay their way through a combination of co-op income and living at home for school, when co-opping or both. Most of the Engineers I knew had offers from the co-op company as well as other firms. U. of Toronto offers this as well- one of my previous employers had co-op students in their actuarial program.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 6:36:30 GMT -5
I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several. I strongly disagree. Your system would mean that only kids from high income families could go to college and/or limit graduates for much needed but low(er) income professions. Sure people "complain". Paying on a loan for 10, 15, or 20 years and still owing the same amount or more sucks. Doesn't mean they aren't still making payments. Lower income kids (although this is not just for kids ) can go to college anyone can take out the loan but they shouldn't be surprised on how hard it will be to pay it back. What I want is a study done on who has a significant amount of SL debt after 10 years compared to their lifestyle and life choices. I think most people are irresponsible, I maybe wrong.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 23, 2022 6:36:39 GMT -5
I probably toured over 50 colleges with my 3 sons. I have yet yo see these mythical. Luxury dorms. At my alma mater, almost all the dorms from my time there are still in use. The really crappy ones are gone. New housing has been built, but that was done so more students could live on campus, which was cheaper than living in the surrounding neighborhood and decreased town gown tensions. Yes they are now all air conditioned, but since the first day of school one year when I was there was 102 degrees, that seems reasonable.
When I linked in NC, tuition at INC chapel hill was $600 a semester. It is now almost $9000. Minimum wage was $3.35 then, now it is $7.25.
In most state systems, not every program is available at every school. Unless you live close to that school, you are forced to live away.
We all complain about the delayed adulthood of kids these days. But this is one factor that plays into this. It is no longer easy to cash flow education, and with credential creep, getting out into ghe workforce takes longer
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 23, 2022 6:37:42 GMT -5
I strongly disagree. Your system would mean that only kids from high income families could go to college and/or limit graduates for much needed but low(er) income professions. Sure people "complain". Paying on a loan for 10, 15, or 20 years and still owing the same amount or more sucks. Doesn't mean they aren't still making payments. Lower income kids (although this is not just for kids ) can go to college anyone can take out the loan but they shouldn't be surprised on how hard it will be to pay it back. What I want is a study done on who has a significant amount of SL debt after 10 years compared to their lifestyle and life choices. I think most people are irresponsible, I maybe wrong. Sucks yo be poor then. Again with this idea that most people are irresponsible. Let’s punish everyone since some people are
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scgal
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Joined: Sept 18, 2020 16:56:48 GMT -5
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 6:50:41 GMT -5
I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several. People who took loans out in the past 10 years are old enough to have seen the impact of the Great Recession and know how important it is to have a degree. Life with out one can be brutal, especially if you have no job or work history for an employer to consider instead. The costs of college are through the roof and you don’t want to be the one degree-less snd job searching when the next recession hits. I would say it is near impossible to cash flow college through work nowadays. I know you said you did snd I did also (for undergrad and masters). That was in the late 1990s-2008. But things have changed a lot. To give sone numbers,I got my BS in 2003. I worked full time + in manufacturing (making $12-$13 an hour) while going to school full time and was able to live good (I had a small apt shared with a friend. A newer car and cash flowed tuition and books). The cost at my state school was $850 a semester for full time, went up to $900 a semester for the last year. In 2010, my brother was going to another one of the state schools in that chain (similar quality, different geographic location). Cost has skyrocketed to $3200 per semester. It almost QUADRUPLED in less than 10 years. He was working part time in a sandwich shop (this was during the big recession... his area hadlike15-20%unrmployment so the fact that he was able to get even a part Time job, paying less than what I making 10 years early was at least something). Where would someone come up with $3200 a semester when they have a minimum wage job part time? Did he want to work part time? No. But could he get a better job full time with no degree in the middle of a recession? No. I was in the military at the time so I paid for his tuition for one semester (my parents scrapped together for the other semester and he got done). But how many people have siblings or relatives who have an extra $3200 sitting around? Most don’t. So your options are loans. He is smart and a hard worker but if you don’t have it, you don’t have it, I guess he could have kept scrapping by part time at the sandwich shop when what little you make goes to rent snd food. I looked at the costs today... like $3800 per semester for over 7 units, $2500 for 6 units or less College does nothing more than open doors. You can get an associates and work to get a bachelors. There are all kinds of ways. Heck take out the loans I did, but I put a priority on paying them back. The problem is you can drive a 50k car and feel and see it, you can live in a 200-400k house you feel it and see it. When people go to college they never see the money they go to class get a diploma and go to work they never associate with the paying the money back. When they do they are sticker shock on how much it cost to use that money. So why should people get forgiveness. Overhaul the system but pay the damn bill.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 7:05:48 GMT -5
More nonsense without data to back it up. There are significant consequences to this. Medical school graduates make rational decisions to pay their loans back. They choose higher paying specialties and choose to live where their income potential is greater. That leads to imbalances in supply and shortages. Society will suffer in the long term without fixing this. But continue to beat this dead horse sbout people being irresponsible That is why I would like to see a study to get some data. I stated several times that the system needs to be overhauled without forgiveness. I also mentioned about personal choices. It's a choice for a certain profession. Its a choice where that person lives. Has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. There was a study done in 2019 that 35% of dr pay off their loans in under 5 years. This is nothing what I'm seeing around me. I know on a couple of people who paid their loans off under 10 years and several keeps kicking the can down the road while increasing their lifestyle
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Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
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Post by Cookies Galore on May 23, 2022 7:19:33 GMT -5
They are sacrificing. These loans never go away. Underemployed, unemployed, disabled, doesn't matter. To the point as @athenac points out- social security is garnished. It impacts home purchases and budgeting, fico scores driving insurance costs. You don't believe anyone should have a loan after 10 years, but your assuming that anyone who does is lazy and it's just not true. I know of plenty of examples of people doing their best and paying their loans, but never paying them off. Most of dh's coworkers honestly. The balances balloon sometimes because of poor choices, but mostly because of design. I think your over worried about paying someone else's way. Letting them get something that they don't deserve. Otherwise why fight the idea of student loan reform? And all we're talking about is reform. Student loans shouldn't be a money making business. At least not the way they're currently structured. Forgiveness in some form may be the cheapest way to fix the current system, but it's a shortterm fix. Not a long term plan for student loans going forward. I'm all for reform not forgiveness. I don't consider people lazy irresponsible yes. People took out a loan to go to school hopefully to better themselves in the career path they choose. That choice is theirs and theirs alone. It doesn't matter what goes on they own that debt. I highly doubt many people who took out a student loan in the past 10 years did not hear about the student loan problems yet they still make the choice to take out the loan to go to school, but when the time comes to pay it back oh woes me. I see people who own nice homes not overly huge have 50k in student debt whining about it yet 50k car in the drive and putting a 60k inground pool in. I know not everyone is doing that but how many people on here can honestly say out of all their friends and family that not one of them is being irresponsible with their student loan. I know several. Funnily enough, all things that tend to have lower interest rates than student loans.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on May 23, 2022 7:25:15 GMT -5
In most state systems, not every program is available at every school. Unless you live close to that school, you are forced to live away. True. If my son would have stayed at home he would have had to major in electrical, composite, or general engineering, because aerospace was only offered at the bigger universities. But, that wouldn't have been the end of the world. I was looking at the future plans section of all the 2022 grads in town and well over half that stated they were going to college named one of the local schools as where they were going so it's still the most popular option.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 23, 2022 8:11:12 GMT -5
I strongly disagree. Your system would mean that only kids from high income families could go to college and/or limit graduates for much needed but low(er) income professions. Sure people "complain". Paying on a loan for 10, 15, or 20 years and still owing the same amount or more sucks. Doesn't mean they aren't still making payments. Lower income kids (although this is not just for kids ) can go to college anyone can take out the loan but they shouldn't be surprised on how hard it will be to pay it back. What I want is a study done on who has a significant amount of SL debt after 10 years compared to their lifestyle and life choices. I think most people are irresponsible, I maybe wrong. Personal responsibility over corporate responsibility? Reform for future students, but if you signed up knowing the short comings of the system that's on you? That certainly encourages companies to put profit over ethics.
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raeoflyte
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Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
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Post by raeoflyte on May 23, 2022 8:16:11 GMT -5
In most state systems, not every program is available at every school. Unless you live close to that school, you are forced to live away. True. If my son would have stayed at home he would have had to major in electrical, composite, or general engineering, because aerospace was only offered at the bigger universities. But, that wouldn't have been the end of the world. I was looking at the future plans section of all the 2022 grads in town and well over half that stated they were going to college named one of the local schools as where they were going so it's still the most popular option.
How far is your commuter school? I'm thrilled to see 2 University campuses in Denver finally. We've always had DU, but there is no in state break there. They're up to $50k a year, up from $30k when I priced them 10 years ago. The options we had when I was looking were to drive 60-90 minutes 1 way. Which is commutable, but I don't think I could do that everyday.
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pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 23, 2022 8:17:09 GMT -5
More nonsense without data to back it up. There are significant consequences to this. Medical school graduates make rational decisions to pay their loans back. They choose higher paying specialties and choose to live where their income potential is greater. That leads to imbalances in supply and shortages. Society will suffer in the long term without fixing this. But continue to beat this dead horse sbout people being irresponsible That is why I would like to see a study to get some data. I stated several times that the system needs to be overhauled without forgiveness. I also mentioned about personal choices. It's a choice for a certain profession. Its a choice where that person lives. Has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. There was a study done in 2019 that 35% of dr pay off their loans in under 5 years. This is nothing what I'm seeing around me. I know on a couple of people who paid their loans off under 10 years and several keeps kicking the can down the road while increasing their lifestyle 5 years after they finished training, which takes anywhere from 3-12 years. During that time they are making 50-75K. And 35% means that over 65% don't. Most of which are in the lower paying specialties. As I said, physicians will make rational decisions. Taking debt burden into specialty choice is rational. It may be a good choice for that person, but it is a choice that leads to an undersupply of lower paid specialties, which from a societal perspective is not ideal. These studies have been done. You just don't like the results. Conservatives would rather not help people to avoid those who are "undeserving" from getting benefits. People will scam whatever system is in place. We should be helping people improve their standing. This should be looked at from a utilitarian perspective. If we get a positive benefit it is worth doing, even if some people are undeserving. My wife and I both have advanced degrees, financed in part by loans. We pain over $100k in federal taxes last year. The government got an excellent ROI. It would have been nice for it to be a little less onerous.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on May 23, 2022 8:59:24 GMT -5
True. If my son would have stayed at home he would have had to major in electrical, composite, or general engineering, because aerospace was only offered at the bigger universities. But, that wouldn't have been the end of the world. I was looking at the future plans section of all the 2022 grads in town and well over half that stated they were going to college named one of the local schools as where they were going so it's still the most popular option.
How far is your commuter school? I'm thrilled to see 2 University campuses in Denver finally. We've always had DU, but there is no in state break there. T hey're up to $50k a year, up from $30k when I priced them 10 years ago. The options we had when I was looking were to drive 60-90 minutes 1 way. Which is commutable, but I don't think I could do that everyday. Two are within 20 minutes of our house, one public, one private (3 if you count the community college). The state college is less than a mile from the high school. We have reciprocity with WI, so if you cross the creek to their schools there are another 3 within 40 minutes (again, one public, one private, one technical school). Going an hour out gets you one more 4 year state school, but that school only does healthcare degrees.
Are those costs just tuition?!? eta: Never mind. I figured out you were talking about the private school and not the state ones. Our private schools are high too (although not that bad) but they also give out lots of scholarship money.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 9:10:59 GMT -5
Lower income kids (although this is not just for kids ) can go to college anyone can take out the loan but they shouldn't be surprised on how hard it will be to pay it back. What I want is a study done on who has a significant amount of SL debt after 10 years compared to their lifestyle and life choices. I think most people are irresponsible, I maybe wrong. Personal responsibility over corporate responsibility? Reform for future students, but if you signed up knowing the short comings of the system that's on you? That certainly encourages companies to put profit over ethics. I'm not saying to be unethical, but profits keep companies open.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 9:13:10 GMT -5
That is why I would like to see a study to get some data. I stated several times that the system needs to be overhauled without forgiveness. I also mentioned about personal choices. It's a choice for a certain profession. Its a choice where that person lives. Has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. There was a study done in 2019 that 35% of dr pay off their loans in under 5 years. This is nothing what I'm seeing around me. I know on a couple of people who paid their loans off under 10 years and several keeps kicking the can down the road while increasing their lifestyle 5 years after they finished training, which takes anywhere from 3-12 years. During that time they are making 50-75K. And 35% means that over 65% don't. Most of which are in the lower paying specialties. As I said, physicians will make rational decisions. Taking debt burden into specialty choice is rational. It may be a good choice for that person, but it is a choice that leads to an undersupply of lower paid specialties, which from a societal perspective is not ideal. These studies have been done. You just don't like the results. Conservatives would rather not help people to avoid those who are "undeserving" from getting benefits. People will scam whatever system is in place. We should be helping people improve their standing. This should be looked at from a utilitarian perspective. If we get a positive benefit it is worth doing, even if some people are undeserving. My wife and I both have advanced degrees, financed in part by loans. We pain over $100k in federal taxes last year. The government got an excellent ROI. It would have been nice for it to be a little less onerous. I haven't seen the studies at least not with the parameters i'm looking for. I'm conservative and I want all people who is willing to put in the effort to prosper to certainly prosper.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 23, 2022 9:20:21 GMT -5
Perhaps you should do your own study with the parameters you want. That way you will get the results you want.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 23, 2022 9:24:05 GMT -5
5 years after they finished training, which takes anywhere from 3-12 years. During that time they are making 50-75K. And 35% means that over 65% don't. Most of which are in the lower paying specialties. As I said, physicians will make rational decisions. Taking debt burden into specialty choice is rational. It may be a good choice for that person, but it is a choice that leads to an undersupply of lower paid specialties, which from a societal perspective is not ideal. These studies have been done. You just don't like the results. Conservatives would rather not help people to avoid those who are "undeserving" from getting benefits. People will scam whatever system is in place. We should be helping people improve their standing. This should be looked at from a utilitarian perspective. If we get a positive benefit it is worth doing, even if some people are undeserving. My wife and I both have advanced degrees, financed in part by loans. We pain over $100k in federal taxes last year. The government got an excellent ROI. It would have been nice for it to be a little less onerous. I haven't seen the studies at least not with the parameters i'm looking for. I'm conservative and I want all people who is willing to put in the effort to prosper to certainly prosper. Only those you feel are "deserving"
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2022 9:29:07 GMT -5
I haven't seen the studies at least not with the parameters i'm looking for. I'm conservative and I want all people who is willing to put in the effort to prosper to certainly prosper. Only those you feel are "deserving" This would actually tie in nicely with the woke thread. Student loans were supposed to help even out the playing field for those who couldn't count on daddy building a new campus library to get them accepted. Instead they are starting to widen the gap because while you can get the education many cannot move onto the next step of wealth building.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 9:37:25 GMT -5
I haven't seen the studies at least not with the parameters i'm looking for. I'm conservative and I want all people who is willing to put in the effort to prosper to certainly prosper. Only those you feel are "deserving" What have I ever posted would elude to that comment.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 9:40:02 GMT -5
Only those you feel are "deserving" This would actually tie in nicely with the woke thread. Student loans were supposed to help even out the playing field for those who couldn't count on daddy building a new campus library to get them accepted. Instead they are starting to widen the gap because while you can get the education many cannot move onto the next step of wealth building. And that would tie into the whole system needing a much overdue overhaul.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 9:42:00 GMT -5
Perhaps you should do your own study with the parameters you want. That way you will get the results you want. I wish I could. To be clear not the end result to justify my belief but to actually know if it is a major component of the problem.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 23, 2022 9:57:09 GMT -5
Only those you feel are "deserving" What have I ever posted would elude to that comment. You say it in every post. You want to know how many people are not doing what you approve of. Clearly you believe those people are undeserving.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 23, 2022 10:01:16 GMT -5
This would actually tie in nicely with the woke thread. Student loans were supposed to help even out the playing field for those who couldn't count on daddy building a new campus library to get them accepted. Instead they are starting to widen the gap because while you can get the education many cannot move onto the next step of wealth building. And that would tie into the whole system needing a much overdue overhaul. Which is what people said you are the one who constantly says the burden is on the loan holder to know better and saying the reason they struggle is because they are all buying McMansions and taking out $50k car loans. I'm sure they also regularly eat steak and lobster while holding onto their Coach purses. It is Coach that YM likes to stereotype struggling people with right I forget.
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scgal
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Post by scgal on May 23, 2022 10:07:04 GMT -5
What have I ever posted would elude to that comment. You say it in every post. You want to know how many people are not doing what you approve of. Clearly you believe those people are undeserving. I surely hope you diagnose medical issues better than comprehending a post. What I say and I will put this very simply is I see people spending a lot of money before they pay their student loans yet they complain that they cannot pay their loans off. To which I would like to see a study done on that subject. Not once did I ever post that those people are undeserving. I wonder how many dems jump to conclusions like this.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 23, 2022 10:13:49 GMT -5
Personal responsibility over corporate responsibility? Reform for future students, but if you signed up knowing the short comings of the system that's on you? That certainly encourages companies to put profit over ethics. I'm not saying to be unethical, but profits keep companies open. Why are student loans a money making business? They have virtually no risk to the lender and are meant for education to benefit society. And besides that, if a company can't make money ethnically they shouldn't be in business and they should be held accountable.
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