Business & Family Dilemmas

[TheOtherMe]

I have seen many people take money from businesses in various ways on tax returns.  They truly do not see it as a salary.  They don't comprehend the business and they are two different entities and the money should be separated.

It is not correct, but that is most likely his thinking.

I hope this is all wrapped up by December 31.

[debthaven]

I'm glad things are moving forward. 

But, it doesn't sound like you've been honest with him. Your concerns are justified. Why are you not being open with him (I mean about his entitlement)? 

My guess is he is trying to ensure that his other kids are OK when he goes... at your expense. 

Maybe you're OK with that just to cut these ties and have peace, maybe you're not. 

But I think you still need to have this discussion with him. 

[Ryan]

Nov 19, 2022 18:50:01 GMT -5 debthaven said:

I'm glad things are moving forward. 

But, it doesn't sound like you've been honest with him. Your concerns are justified. Why are you not being open with him (I mean about his entitlement)? 

My guess is he is trying to ensure that his other kids are OK when he goes... at your expense. 

Maybe you're OK with that just to cut these ties and have peace, maybe you're not. 

But I think you still need to have this discussion with him. 

Yeah, I think ultimately I'll be happy if we can cut ties on the business and just move on.  My frustration/anger has had more to do with his unwillingness to just let it go when the writing is clearly on the wall.  During points of exasperation when dealing with him, I have said "There isn't enough profit here, so either you or I continue with the business.  You're 75 and about to hit a payday, do you think that's logical for you to keep everything?"  I also point blank told him that I brought him into the business to help him fund retirement, which it did, and now it's time to move on.  

I feel like I've been very direct without being too hurtful.  I really would love to know where all the money went, but I suspect the answer wouldn't be all that satisfying.  I don't think he was looting the company, I think he just isn't a very good business person.  He's a good General Manager, but not someone that can run a company and make financial decisions.  If we had someone that was good at those things, they probably would've caught this 5 years ago and forced a move out of the building.  I've made a lot of money over the years with this business and him working there meant I didn't really have to do anything day to day.  

[seriousthistime]

If your father is 75, he is most certainly collecting Social Security because the benefit maxes out at age 70.  There is no advantage to waiting past age 70.  If he watches money so carefully, he would know that. 

But I also wonder if he doesn't have much of a SS benefit based on his work record.  I can't recall what you said about whether he was getting paid a salary or if his "salary" was through reimbursement of expenses or rent received, or both, or more.  If it was not reported on a W-2 or 1099, he probably didn't report this as earned income and it was not subjected to SS payroll tax or self-employment tax and his "salary" likely didn't count toward future SS benefits.  Sounds like your mother had her own W-2 or 1099 income that was reported correctly with FICA and SS, and she also has a pension from her working years. 

Even if he didn't report "salary" as earned income that counted toward SS benefits, he is entitled to collect half of your mother's benefit if it is more than the benefit earned on his work record. 

I'm sorry this is happening and recognize that as much as you want there to be a meeting of the minds where everyone involved feels the resolution is fair and equitable, you are concerned about the rift.  I hope your dad sees the benefit to slowing down. 

I retired at the end of 2020. As a mid-level manager in a small federal agency with an aging professional work force, I saw how people think they're ready to retire but then keep postponing for another 3 months, or another 6, or until year end... and I would say to them that the thing about deciding to retire is that you aren't guaranteed X number of years of retirement. You have X number of years of life. The longer you work, the less you get to spend doing things you want to do with the rest of your life, and doing them with the people you love. Every single day you work is a day less to spend as a retired person.  You don't get a longer life so you can enjoy that 20 year retirement you expected.  And the days of retirement you rob yourself of by continuing to work from age 75 to 80, say, means you are less likely to be healthy enough to do all the things in retirement that you could do when you were 75.  When I was a young person, I worked for a large insurance company back East. You would recognize the name of the company.  People generally worked until 65, probably because of the pension benefits that were payable then.  A woman I worked with was delighted to be planning all the things she wanted to do when she retired, set a date of her 65th birthday for retirement, and the preparations were in motion. She was so happy to be planning all the things she saved up to do in retirement. She died suddenly, 2 weeks before retirement.  

At the ripe old age of 20, I decided that was never going to be me.  Maybe your father has just not envisioned what he could do with his time.  Have you enlisted your mother's help on this, or would she not be on board with him retiring and bothering her all day -- if that is what he would do.

[Pink Cashmere]

Nov 20, 2022 16:54:58 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

If your father is 75, he is most certainly collecting Social Security because the benefit maxes out at age 70.  There is no advantage to waiting past age 70.  If he watches money so carefully, he would know that. 

But I also wonder if he doesn't have much of a SS benefit based on his work record.  I can't recall what you said about whether he was getting paid a salary or if his "salary" was through reimbursement of expenses or rent received, or both, or more.  If it was not reported on a W-2 or 1099, he probably didn't report this as earned income and it was not subjected to SS payroll tax or self-employment tax and his "salary" likely didn't count toward future SS benefits.  Sounds like your mother had her own W-2 or 1099 income that was reported correctly with FICA and SS, and she also has a pension from her working years. 

Even if he didn't report "salary" as earned income that counted toward SS benefits, he is entitled to collect half of your mother's benefit if it is more than the benefit earned on his work record. 

I'm sorry this is happening and recognize that as much as you want there to be a meeting of the minds where everyone involved feels the resolution is fair and equitable, you are concerned about the rift.  I hope your dad sees the benefit to slowing down. 

I retired at the end of 2020. As a mid-level manager in a small federal agency with an aging professional work force, I saw how people think they're ready to retire but then keep postponing for another 3 months, or another 6, or until year end... and I would say to them that the thing about deciding to retire is that you aren't guaranteed X number of years of retirement. You have X number of years of life. The longer you work, the less you get to spend doing things you want to do with the rest of your life, and doing them with the people you love. Every single day you work is a day less to spend as a retired person.  You don't get a longer life so you can enjoy that 20 year retirement you expected.  And the days of retirement you rob yourself of by continuing to work from age 75 to 80, say, means you are less likely to be healthy enough to do all the things in retirement that you could do when you were 75.  When I was a young person, I worked for a large insurance company back East. You would recognize the name of the company.  People generally worked until 65, probably because of the pension benefits that were payable then.  A woman I worked with was delighted to be planning all the things she wanted to do when she retired, set a date of her 65th birthday for retirement, and the preparations were in motion. She was so happy to be planning all the things she saved up to do in retirement. She died suddenly, 2 weeks before retirement.  

At the ripe old age of 20, I decided that was never going to be me.  Maybe your father has just not envisioned what he could do with his time.  Have you enlisted your mother's help on this, or would she not be on board with him retiring and bothering her all day -- if that is what he would do.

This is off topic (my apologies Ryan) but the bolded really struck a nerve with me, because the bolded spoke to all the thoughts tumbling around in the back of my mind constantly, when I think about my own retirement one day. Thank you for stating it so clearly that we only have a certain number of years to live (and we don’t know the number, of course) whether we spend our latter years working after we can retire or retired and having more time for the people we love and the things we enjoy to do. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 18, 2022 23:58:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Oct 13, 2022 19:32:17 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I'm not sure on the social security question, but almost certain my mom takes it and also has a pension.  I think their retirement wasn't going particularly well in their 50's, but then they really started to pour it on over the last 20 years.  The business was profitable, they inherited money from both of their parents, and expenses were reduced.  My dad is frugal enough to where if he's actually spending money, he likely has more than enough.

I do have siblings in the situation you described though, 1 with substance abuse and 1 is just not motivated.  Not sure how much financial support they have offered them, but I don't think it's been that much.  If I were to guess, I'd say that there are 2 main reasons he doesn't want to quit....he wants someplace to go everyday and he likes the security that having an income source provides...even if he doesn't need it.

He wants to sell the building as opposed to lease because he knows he'll have to put like $100K into the building and doesn't really want to deal with that.  I get it and it makes sense.  

I think that is why he really wanted to get a multi-tenant building, something small.  If he rolled the proceeds from the sale into the building then he could continue to work at a smaller scale and then have the income from the other units.  I did consider that for a split second, but even that doesn't really make sense.  He's better off just renting out all the units, the single unit would be a money loser for him.  

I'm proposing a buy-out plan for him and I'm hoping that if I can propose something over like 3 years, it'll alleviate one of the (money) concerns about stopping working.  I'm hoping that he'll like retirement so much that he'll wish he did it earlier.  

Just to round out the story, the building is still on the market but very, very close to being sold.  After he reiterated his desire to stay in the business, I had a talk with him and he backed down.  We said we'd revisit a buyout amount and then figure it out later.  My main issue with the lack of control I had and visibility into the finances.  I told him that I wanted the buyout to be finalized by 12/31/22 so we could just finalize the amount and move on, I literally cannot take this dragging out any longer.  

So initially, I think he was thinking that he owned the inventory and all the assets, so the purchase agreement would be for all of that.  As I was thinking about it, I thought why would I pay for all of that, all of the proceeds to purchase those things came from the business.  I proposed we split the bank balances and the inventory and I'd buy out his 50%.  He is sitting there confused not understanding why I would have a right to this.  I kept reiterating that all the money to purchase those assets came from cash flow from the business, which is (more or less) owned 50/50.  He's struggling with this, then I ask him how much he takes from the business as a salary.  He says he hasn't taken a salary.  However after further probing, it turns out he was taking a pretty large amount of funds from the business through various means and pretty much said something like "Do you want me to just give everything to you or split it 50/50".  I agreed to 50/50 and we moved on.

I went home and told my wife that I really wasn't mad, although I should be.  Then after I thought about it more, I really did start to get mad.  Mostly because I was kicking myself about not confronting him during years where we were wildly profitable and cash was coming in like crazy.  To be fair, I think it was a very slow leak over many years that just revealed itself when things got slow.  We were always able to buy inventory, but I found it strange that we didn't have ample reserves.  I was always able to cash my distribution checks, but it was weird that I had to wait longer and longer.  If you divided up the money between 1) Reinvest in inventory 2) Overhead 3) Dad profit 4) Son profit, he was basically borrowing from "inventory" money to pay himself and never really considering why that was an issue.  I blame myself a bit for not pushing him on this.

My wife was even more baffled by this.  My dad is a very normal, honest guy and she was so confused as to how he thought this was ok.  She also was confused as to why he would even accept me buying him out when I basically provided him an income for the last 20 years and he's on the cusp of selling a $1.5M building that he doesn't own a mortgage on.  She's like "Why is he even willing to accept anything from you?"

I have to admit, it confuses me too.  The only explanation I can think of is that he went through some very stressful, low income years when he was younger and had all of us kids and that kind of shaped him.  I remember when I was young, I asked him if he would be upset if he lost a $1 bill.  He's like "Yeah, kind of".  I said "What about if you lost $5" and he said "Yeah, that would bother me".  I finally said "What if you lost $20" and he said "That would bother me for the entire day".  

I just want to put this entire fiasco to bed, but I have a feeling there will be way more conversations about this. 

I'm less inclined to give him slack on the scarcity angle. I've had a lot of scarcity, scary times as a single parent on my own and I can't see how that is influencing his thinking here. I'm kind of angry on your behalf.

To me it looks like an ego issue, like he was cutting you into a good thing, rather than you cutting him into a good thing. Over time he took more and more personal ownership for the success of the business and now you're trying to go back to the origins of the partnership and he just didn't want to know that is wasn't all his business savvy that did it. Also likely a father/son dynamic where he is leading you, helping you, etc.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 20, 2022 17:07:06 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Nov 20, 2022 16:54:58 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

If your father is 75, he is most certainly collecting Social Security because the benefit maxes out at age 70.  There is no advantage to waiting past age 70.  If he watches money so carefully, he would know that. 

But I also wonder if he doesn't have much of a SS benefit based on his work record.  I can't recall what you said about whether he was getting paid a salary or if his "salary" was through reimbursement of expenses or rent received, or both, or more.  If it was not reported on a W-2 or 1099, he probably didn't report this as earned income and it was not subjected to SS payroll tax or self-employment tax and his "salary" likely didn't count toward future SS benefits.  Sounds like your mother had her own W-2 or 1099 income that was reported correctly with FICA and SS, and she also has a pension from her working years. 

Even if he didn't report "salary" as earned income that counted toward SS benefits, he is entitled to collect half of your mother's benefit if it is more than the benefit earned on his work record. 

I'm sorry this is happening and recognize that as much as you want there to be a meeting of the minds where everyone involved feels the resolution is fair and equitable, you are concerned about the rift.  I hope your dad sees the benefit to slowing down. 

I retired at the end of 2020. As a mid-level manager in a small federal agency with an aging professional work force, I saw how people think they're ready to retire but then keep postponing for another 3 months, or another 6, or until year end... and I would say to them that the thing about deciding to retire is that you aren't guaranteed X number of years of retirement. You have X number of years of life. The longer you work, the less you get to spend doing things you want to do with the rest of your life, and doing them with the people you love. Every single day you work is a day less to spend as a retired person.  You don't get a longer life so you can enjoy that 20 year retirement you expected.  And the days of retirement you rob yourself of by continuing to work from age 75 to 80, say, means you are less likely to be healthy enough to do all the things in retirement that you could do when you were 75.  When I was a young person, I worked for a large insurance company back East. You would recognize the name of the company.  People generally worked until 65, probably because of the pension benefits that were payable then.  A woman I worked with was delighted to be planning all the things she wanted to do when she retired, set a date of her 65th birthday for retirement, and the preparations were in motion. She was so happy to be planning all the things she saved up to do in retirement. She died suddenly, 2 weeks before retirement.  

At the ripe old age of 20, I decided that was never going to be me.  Maybe your father has just not envisioned what he could do with his time.  Have you enlisted your mother's help on this, or would she not be on board with him retiring and bothering her all day -- if that is what he would do.

This is off topic (my apologies Ryan) but the bolded really struck a nerve with me, because the bolded spoke to all the thoughts tumbling around in the back of my mind constantly, when I think about my own retirement one day. Thank you for stating it so clearly that we only have a certain number of years to live (and we don’t know the number, of course) whether we spend our latter years working after we can retire or retired and having more time for the people we love and the things we enjoy to do. 

It's true we never can know. Is it weird that I'm not too concerned about an early sudden death? At least I won't be disappointed about anything?

Rather - i am trying to enjoy the day to day more, than worry about retiring now and maybe not having enough money for a great retirement or working too long and not needing all the money I've hoarded. It is important to hit a balance there, but right now, I don't think i have all the info I need. 

For me, knowing that all the money goes to my kids makes it worth it, even if I keel over before retirement. Of course, better for them if I continue on as the matriarch.

I think I'd be at considerable financial risk if I retired now - if inflation keeps high and market stays down. If next year is a 40% market increase then continued bull for a few years and down to 3-4% inflation....yeah I could probably retire now and be ok.

[Ryan]

Nov 20, 2022 16:54:58 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

If your father is 75, he is most certainly collecting Social Security because the benefit maxes out at age 70.  There is no advantage to waiting past age 70.  If he watches money so carefully, he would know that. 

But I also wonder if he doesn't have much of a SS benefit based on his work record.  I can't recall what you said about whether he was getting paid a salary or if his "salary" was through reimbursement of expenses or rent received, or both, or more.  If it was not reported on a W-2 or 1099, he probably didn't report this as earned income and it was not subjected to SS payroll tax or self-employment tax and his "salary" likely didn't count toward future SS benefits.  Sounds like your mother had her own W-2 or 1099 income that was reported correctly with FICA and SS, and she also has a pension from her working years. 

Even if he didn't report "salary" as earned income that counted toward SS benefits, he is entitled to collect half of your mother's benefit if it is more than the benefit earned on his work record. 

I'm sorry this is happening and recognize that as much as you want there to be a meeting of the minds where everyone involved feels the resolution is fair and equitable, you are concerned about the rift.  I hope your dad sees the benefit to slowing down. 

I retired at the end of 2020. As a mid-level manager in a small federal agency with an aging professional work force, I saw how people think they're ready to retire but then keep postponing for another 3 months, or another 6, or until year end... and I would say to them that the thing about deciding to retire is that you aren't guaranteed X number of years of retirement. You have X number of years of life. The longer you work, the less you get to spend doing things you want to do with the rest of your life, and doing them with the people you love. Every single day you work is a day less to spend as a retired person.  You don't get a longer life so you can enjoy that 20 year retirement you expected.  And the days of retirement you rob yourself of by continuing to work from age 75 to 80, say, means you are less likely to be healthy enough to do all the things in retirement that you could do when you were 75.  When I was a young person, I worked for a large insurance company back East. You would recognize the name of the company.  People generally worked until 65, probably because of the pension benefits that were payable then.  A woman I worked with was delighted to be planning all the things she wanted to do when she retired, set a date of her 65th birthday for retirement, and the preparations were in motion. She was so happy to be planning all the things she saved up to do in retirement. She died suddenly, 2 weeks before retirement.  

At the ripe old age of 20, I decided that was never going to be me.  Maybe your father has just not envisioned what he could do with his time.  Have you enlisted your mother's help on this, or would she not be on board with him retiring and bothering her all day -- if that is what he would do.

Yeah, he collects SS, but I can't remember how much.  I was a little upset when he positioned it initially like "I'm not collecting a salary, we just live off SS".  At first I was kind of thinking, why would you not saying something about that if that was the case.  LIke "Hey, I'm coming in everyday and not making any money, I'd rather just save myself the trouble".  After thinking about it for a few minutes as we're talking, I started questioning him on whether he runs expenses through and he said yes....I'm speculating, but I do feel like right when I went towards that line of questioning, he quickly realized that he is probably more than making up for any lack of salary.  

If I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume no ill intent, which I am, then I'm just upset that it didn't occur to him that this was wrong.

[Ryan]

Nov 20, 2022 18:40:24 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Nov 18, 2022 23:58:19 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Just to round out the story, the building is still on the market but very, very close to being sold.  After he reiterated his desire to stay in the business, I had a talk with him and he backed down.  We said we'd revisit a buyout amount and then figure it out later.  My main issue with the lack of control I had and visibility into the finances.  I told him that I wanted the buyout to be finalized by 12/31/22 so we could just finalize the amount and move on, I literally cannot take this dragging out any longer.  

So initially, I think he was thinking that he owned the inventory and all the assets, so the purchase agreement would be for all of that.  As I was thinking about it, I thought why would I pay for all of that, all of the proceeds to purchase those things came from the business.  I proposed we split the bank balances and the inventory and I'd buy out his 50%.  He is sitting there confused not understanding why I would have a right to this.  I kept reiterating that all the money to purchase those assets came from cash flow from the business, which is (more or less) owned 50/50.  He's struggling with this, then I ask him how much he takes from the business as a salary.  He says he hasn't taken a salary.  However after further probing, it turns out he was taking a pretty large amount of funds from the business through various means and pretty much said something like "Do you want me to just give everything to you or split it 50/50".  I agreed to 50/50 and we moved on.

I went home and told my wife that I really wasn't mad, although I should be.  Then after I thought about it more, I really did start to get mad.  Mostly because I was kicking myself about not confronting him during years where we were wildly profitable and cash was coming in like crazy.  To be fair, I think it was a very slow leak over many years that just revealed itself when things got slow.  We were always able to buy inventory, but I found it strange that we didn't have ample reserves.  I was always able to cash my distribution checks, but it was weird that I had to wait longer and longer.  If you divided up the money between 1) Reinvest in inventory 2) Overhead 3) Dad profit 4) Son profit, he was basically borrowing from "inventory" money to pay himself and never really considering why that was an issue.  I blame myself a bit for not pushing him on this.

My wife was even more baffled by this.  My dad is a very normal, honest guy and she was so confused as to how he thought this was ok.  She also was confused as to why he would even accept me buying him out when I basically provided him an income for the last 20 years and he's on the cusp of selling a $1.5M building that he doesn't own a mortgage on.  She's like "Why is he even willing to accept anything from you?"

I have to admit, it confuses me too.  The only explanation I can think of is that he went through some very stressful, low income years when he was younger and had all of us kids and that kind of shaped him.  I remember when I was young, I asked him if he would be upset if he lost a $1 bill.  He's like "Yeah, kind of".  I said "What about if you lost $5" and he said "Yeah, that would bother me".  I finally said "What if you lost $20" and he said "That would bother me for the entire day".  

I just want to put this entire fiasco to bed, but I have a feeling there will be way more conversations about this. 

I'm less inclined to give him slack on the scarcity angle. I've had a lot of scarcity, scary times as a single parent on my own and I can't see how that is influencing his thinking here. I'm kind of angry on your behalf.

To me it looks like an ego issue, like he was cutting you into a good thing, rather than you cutting him into a good thing. Over time he took more and more personal ownership for the success of the business and now you're trying to go back to the origins of the partnership and he just didn't want to know that is wasn't all his business savvy that did it. Also likely a father/son dynamic where he is leading you, helping you, etc.

Yes, I think you're 100% right.  I think that over time, he completely forgot about how this all evolved.  Towards the end, I had to bring him back into line by walking him through the timeline on how we got to where we were.  I have a full-time job, my wife works, and was collecting a nice profit from this business.  I think he thought I wasn't really doing any work for the money I was taking.  Some of my siblings kind of put my parents on a pedestal and I'm sure they were saying things like "You're the one doing all the work on the business", which might have given him justification for things.

I should've addressed this a long time ago because I never liked how we handled finances, but when I presented him with a total of my calculated pay, he never fought me so I just let it be.  He did do a lot of work during those years and it really did allow me to be pretty hands off.  Still though, this past year has just driven me crazy with his attitude towards just stepping aside and moving on.  I've gone different angles too, basically saying that I want to make one final push on the business so I can save for my 4 kids college (all going within 6 years).  You'd think it would put things into perspective for him, but he still seemed to take it personal.

[Ryan]

Nov 20, 2022 19:07:08 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Nov 20, 2022 17:07:06 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

This is off topic (my apologies Ryan) but the bolded really struck a nerve with me, because the bolded spoke to all the thoughts tumbling around in the back of my mind constantly, when I think about my own retirement one day. Thank you for stating it so clearly that we only have a certain number of years to live (and we don’t know the number, of course) whether we spend our latter years working after we can retire or retired and having more time for the people we love and the things we enjoy to do. 

It's true we never can know. Is it weird that I'm not too concerned about an early sudden death? At least I won't be disappointed about anything?

Rather - i am trying to enjoy the day to day more, than worry about retiring now and maybe not having enough money for a great retirement or working too long and not needing all the money I've hoarded. It is important to hit a balance there, but right now, I don't think i have all the info I need. 

For me, knowing that all the money goes to my kids makes it worth it, even if I keel over before retirement. Of course, better for them if I continue on as the matriarch.

I think I'd be at considerable financial risk if I retired now - if inflation keeps high and market stays down. If next year is a 40% market increase then continued bull for a few years and down to 3-4% inflation....yeah I could probably retire now and be ok.

THis is the thing that has driven my wife nuts about this entire thing.  She knows my dad is a good person, but is so confused on why he's hung up on 1) Staying involved 2) If he has to get out, getting paid for his 50%.   In her mind, she can't comprehend why he wouldn't just voluntarily hand over the keys and tell me to keep it going.  I can understand if you started a business, had 4 kids, and 1 decided to run it.  You have an obligation to sell the asset and then distribute to the other kids.  That's not the case here.

[debthaven]

Ryan, you've been much franker with your Dad than I had realized. I think at this point you just have to bite the bullet and get it done. 

I know it's not easy. Best of luck to you.

[giramomma]

Nov 21, 2022 0:52:21 GMT -5 Ryan said:

THis is the thing that has driven my wife nuts about this entire thing.  She knows my dad is a good person, but is so confused on why he's hung up on 1) Staying involved 2) If he has to get out, getting paid for his 50%.   In her mind, she can't comprehend why he wouldn't just voluntarily hand over the keys and tell me to keep it going.  I can understand if you started a business, had 4 kids, and 1 decided to run it.  You have an obligation to sell the asset and then distribute to the other kids.  That's not the case here.

Age does weird things to people.

It makes them stubborn and dig in.

It gives them a long time to tell themselves things that may or may not be true. If it's not true, but what they tell themselves. That's what they believe.

Dealing with parents in the final decades of their lives is NOT for the faint of heart.

[Pink Cashmere]

Nov 21, 2022 18:58:05 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Nov 21, 2022 0:52:21 GMT -5 Ryan said:

THis is the thing that has driven my wife nuts about this entire thing.  She knows my dad is a good person, but is so confused on why he's hung up on 1) Staying involved 2) If he has to get out, getting paid for his 50%.   In her mind, she can't comprehend why he wouldn't just voluntarily hand over the keys and tell me to keep it going.  I can understand if you started a business, had 4 kids, and 1 decided to run it.  You have an obligation to sell the asset and then distribute to the other kids.  That's not the case here.

Age does weird things to people.

It makes them stubborn and dig in.

It gives them a long time to tell themselves things that may or may not be true. If it's not true, but what they tell themselves. That's what they believe.

Dealing with parents in the final decades of their lives is NOT for the faint of heart.

I feel like most people in my life have been pretty honest about how trying to be a good parent and raising children, is not for the faint of heart.

But nobody ever spoke on the possibility that one day you might have to “parent” your parent(s) and how much more difficult and complicated that can be…… and it’s also also not for the faint of heart. 

[TheOtherMe]

I certainly found out that parenting my parent was very complicated and not for the faint of heart.

I hope I don't get like that but I've watched my aunts and uncles go down the same path my parents did so I probably will.

Even my grandma, who I actually knew, was adamant that she was never going to a nursing home.  She lived with a son who never married.  My sister and I actually did talk about we doubt if the other 11 siblings had any idea of what he went through.

Some were upset that he didn't do an estate.  Uh, all she had was whatever gifts her kids and grandkids had given her a the minimum social security.  He earned it.

I did have a problem when he died and we had to buy back any gifts we had given grandma if we wanted them.

[raeoflyte]

My mom said that having 85 year old parents is like having a 5 year old who lives by themselves but needs you for everything. And as my parents reach mid 70's I can see how that slide happens. But my parents can too and are prepping.

[saveinla]

I am seeing that with my in laws now - they are very stubborn and also want to live separately. My DH and his brothers are struggling with them.

We  were lucky with my parents - they lived with my sister and were very helpful - both of them contributed both money and some work to the home and did not demand anything from my sister. They also died very suddenly, so we were lucky in that way also. We miss them a lot, but are happy they did not suffer and we did not have to go through the mental decline that comes with age.

[giramomma]

Nov 22, 2022 8:06:51 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

My mom said that having 85 year old parents is like having a 5 year old who lives by themselves but needs you for everything. And as my parents reach mid 70's I can see how that slide happens. But my parents can too and are prepping.

Yes. I think Covid isolation did my inlaws in physically. They used to go to the gym and walk/work out. They stopped that.

My inlaws are good about the "business" things. They just updated all of their paperwork. DH is the executor of their wills and he met with them and the lawyer. They are making another pass at cleaning out their house.

It's the physical stuff they are stubborn about. MIL should have had knee replacement surgery in her early 70s. She thought she could put it off. I'm betting she'll need it when she's 80 and her choices are that or a wheelchair. I'm not a health professional, but I'd wager a guess that recovery would have been easier when she was younger.

I've decided all I can do now is literally get my house in order so that when I/we have to drop everything to take care of folks, or estates, that we can just focus on work and other people's houses and our kids. I don't know how to manage two jobs, three minor children, and cleaning out/updating 2-3 houses at the same time. If my cancer comes back, I don't know how we're supposed to manage cancer treatment on top of that.

Adulting absolutely blows. It's the dirty little secret no one tells you about. Can you imagine college graduation speeches if folks were really honest about moving through adulthood? They'd be freaking depressing.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 22, 2022 8:06:51 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

My mom said that having 85 year old parents is like having a 5 year old who lives by themselves but needs you for everything. And as my parents reach mid 70's I can see how that slide happens. But my parents can too and are prepping.

sounds about right, age of onset may vary.....confirms my idea for to aim for 80/85 for a senior ind living apt in a facility that can move you to assisted and the nursing home level care.

hopefully by then vegan senior living will be readily available

[Ryan]

Nov 21, 2022 18:58:05 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Nov 21, 2022 0:52:21 GMT -5 Ryan said:

THis is the thing that has driven my wife nuts about this entire thing.  She knows my dad is a good person, but is so confused on why he's hung up on 1) Staying involved 2) If he has to get out, getting paid for his 50%.   In her mind, she can't comprehend why he wouldn't just voluntarily hand over the keys and tell me to keep it going.  I can understand if you started a business, had 4 kids, and 1 decided to run it.  You have an obligation to sell the asset and then distribute to the other kids.  That's not the case here.

Age does weird things to people.

It makes them stubborn and dig in.

It gives them a long time to tell themselves things that may or may not be true. If it's not true, but what they tell themselves. That's what they believe.

Dealing with parents in the final decades of their lives is NOT for the faint of heart.

I understand where they are coming from.  It would be a weird feeling to end certain phases of life and then realize that you're really not going to be revisiting it.  Things like a kids last baseball game, graduating from HS, and the last one getting married.  When you get older, I would imagine that you're reluctant to let go because it basically is the end of something you may have enjoyed...or to put it more morbidly, it's one step closer to death.  

[Ryan]

Well, I guess the saga is getting very close to being over so I thought I'd provide an update.  My dad's building ended up going under contract for higher than expected.  While he was under contract, there was some stress because my mom ended up having some health issues and was in/out of the hospital.  To me, it just made it that much more clear that he needed to take care of this building issue sooner rather than later.  

The building closed this week and my dad is renting the space from the current owner for another month.  Not really sure if my dad likes this or not, but he'll get used to it.  I would go into the building a lot over this winter and I could never understand why he would want to come into this building each day, it was pretty depressing.  

I'm excited to move onto the next part of the business.  Our expenses were probably averaging $7K/month there and now overhead will be significantly cheaper.  I'm sure my family is a little upset with me for "forcing" retirement, but they did seem to understand when I explained my side of the story.  He ended up accepting the decision without me having to bring up the "nuclear" option, which would be to explain that the business doesn't have any money because of the way he's been managing the cash.  

[Pink Cashmere]

Mar 10, 2023 14:49:32 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Well, I guess the saga is getting very close to being over so I thought I'd provide an update.  My dad's building ended up going under contract for higher than expected.  While he was under contract, there was some stress because my mom ended up having some health issues and was in/out of the hospital.  To me, it just made it that much more clear that he needed to take care of this building issue sooner rather than later.  

The building closed this week and my dad is renting the space from the current owner for another month.  Not really sure if my dad likes this or not, but he'll get used to it.  I would go into the building a lot over this winter and I could never understand why he would want to come into this building each day, it was pretty depressing.  

I'm excited to move onto the next part of the business.  Our expenses were probably averaging $7K/month there and now overhead will be significantly cheaper.  I'm sure my family is a little upset with me for "forcing" retirement, but they did seem to understand when I explained my side of the story.  He ended up accepting the decision without me having to bring up the "nuclear" option, which would be to explain that the business doesn't have any money because of the way he's been managing the cash.  

Thanks for the update. First of all, I hope your Mom is doing better now. 

Second, it seems you and your Dad have made some sort of peace with the situation, which is good. It’s also good that you are excited to move to the next phase. Hopefully your Dad can figure out something else to occupy him if he feels there is a void in his life from no longer having the role he played in the business. Who knows, maybe he will discover that life is more enjoyable than he expected now.

All the best to you and your family.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

congrats Ryan, glad this is winding down for you.


Hopefully, all the family drama stuff will just fade with time.

[Ryan]

Mar 10, 2023 16:44:41 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Mar 10, 2023 14:49:32 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Well, I guess the saga is getting very close to being over so I thought I'd provide an update.  My dad's building ended up going under contract for higher than expected.  While he was under contract, there was some stress because my mom ended up having some health issues and was in/out of the hospital.  To me, it just made it that much more clear that he needed to take care of this building issue sooner rather than later.  

The building closed this week and my dad is renting the space from the current owner for another month.  Not really sure if my dad likes this or not, but he'll get used to it.  I would go into the building a lot over this winter and I could never understand why he would want to come into this building each day, it was pretty depressing.  

I'm excited to move onto the next part of the business.  Our expenses were probably averaging $7K/month there and now overhead will be significantly cheaper.  I'm sure my family is a little upset with me for "forcing" retirement, but they did seem to understand when I explained my side of the story.  He ended up accepting the decision without me having to bring up the "nuclear" option, which would be to explain that the business doesn't have any money because of the way he's been managing the cash.  

Thanks for the update. First of all, I hope your Mom is doing better now. 

Second, it seems you and your Dad have made some sort of peace with the situation, which is good. It’s also good that you are excited to move to the next phase. Hopefully your Dad can figure out something else to occupy him if he feels there is a void in his life from no longer having the role he played in the business. Who knows, maybe he will discover that life is more enjoyable than he expected now.

All the best to you and your family.

Yeah, I think he has accepted it, but I still think there is a little resentment.  We had a little disagreement the other day because he forgot the terms of the buyout that we talked about a few months and wanted to revisit the whole arrangement.  I don't think he forgot, I think he just used it as a way to bring an argument he'd be formulating in his head where, even though he spent the money to not benefit the business, that was his allocated money to spend so it was no issue.  I told him it comes to whether he sees me as an owner.  If he does, then I own 50% of the inventory.  If he doesn't, then he owes me commissions for the last 2 years that he didn't pay because I (acting like an owner) didn't take money when we were breaking even.  

That seems to have squashed any arguments for now, but can't wait to have this totally behind us.

[happyhoix]

Feb 17, 2022 0:17:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Feb 16, 2022 21:15:39 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Some people are the types that can't quit working, even in retirement. CountryGirl's husband is one of those.

What else does your dad do? Nothing? Maybe that's part of the equation, helping your dad find different things to do with his life.

Or you help your dad find a new job.

He has hobbies, he is a big crafter, he does a lot of projects around the house, he has a big house to take care of, he is active in his neighborhood, him and my mom travel at least 5 times a year.  That's partially why I was confused as to why he wanted to continue doing this.  He has made comments recently saying things like "I feel very unproductive" (because order volume is down) and he's made comments about wanting to take a week off during the busy season, but not sure if he would be able to do that.  

I don't think it's just staying busy though.  I think he has used the business to help out all of his kids in various ways.  I have 3 siblings and 1 is a preschool teacher, 1 is a SAHM, and the other probably should be on disability since they haven't worked steadily in awhile.  He almost views the business as an easy way to dish out money to the family.  He'll have them come in to work, he'll pay them.  However they aren't really working that hard.  

There are probably lots of reasons though and he doesn't articulate what he's thinking.  He has plenty to do to stay busy, he could rent out his building and make more money.  I have no idea why he'd want to continue doing this, it completely baffles me.  



 

Maybe he hasn’t realized the money he’d get from renting it out? Do you have a commercial realtor friend who could come by and quote what he might make in rent?

If he’s worried about ways to employ the siblings maybe he could pay them for yard work/ housework or helping with his crafty stuff.

When you get older you tend to get stuck in doing things the way you always have, may you could help him think through some new scenarios that would be even better than the current one.

[Ryan]

Mar 15, 2023 11:11:46 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 17, 2022 0:17:40 GMT -5 Ryan said:

He has hobbies, he is a big crafter, he does a lot of projects around the house, he has a big house to take care of, he is active in his neighborhood, him and my mom travel at least 5 times a year.  That's partially why I was confused as to why he wanted to continue doing this.  He has made comments recently saying things like "I feel very unproductive" (because order volume is down) and he's made comments about wanting to take a week off during the busy season, but not sure if he would be able to do that.  

I don't think it's just staying busy though.  I think he has used the business to help out all of his kids in various ways.  I have 3 siblings and 1 is a preschool teacher, 1 is a SAHM, and the other probably should be on disability since they haven't worked steadily in awhile.  He almost views the business as an easy way to dish out money to the family.  He'll have them come in to work, he'll pay them.  However they aren't really working that hard.  

There are probably lots of reasons though and he doesn't articulate what he's thinking.  He has plenty to do to stay busy, he could rent out his building and make more money.  I have no idea why he'd want to continue doing this, it completely baffles me.  



 

Maybe he hasn’t realized the money he’d get from renting it out? Do you have a commercial realtor friend who could come by and quote what he might make in rent?

If he’s worried about ways to employ the siblings maybe he could pay them for yard work/ housework or helping with his crafty stuff.

When you get older you tend to get stuck in doing things the way you always have, may you could help him think through some new scenarios that would be even better than the current one.

He closed on the building and has over $1.4M in the bank right now, so he's set financially (he wasn't hurting before).  The one that was going to work in the business, I think my dad realized that was not going to work and it wasn't a viable plan.  I don't understand my dad's thought process at all.  I can understand people working when all of their friends are there, but he was going there to work by himself.  It made sense when we were making a lot of money, I'd be motivated to do that as well.  It got to be silly when he still wanted to do it, despite the building itself gobbling up any profit the business would make.  The building was absolutely freezing in the winter time and boiling in the summer time.  Plus his decision was essentially taking money out of his kids pocket.

My dad doesn't really discuss feelings at all, so hard to know what he's thinking.  I am assuming he just thinks of it as being the end of an era and he's sad about it.  Understandable to have those feelings, but he's had a year to process this, I'm surprised he still feels this way.  Especially since having him (and the building) at the center of the operation was very, very suspect given his age.  At any moment, he could've had a health issue like my mom and we would've been screwed.

[haapai]

Has your dad made any moves toward vacating the space that he is renting back?  Is there anything of value in that space that he is in danger of losing?  Will he get dinged with disposal fees if the space isn't emptied?

Technically, this isn't your problem but you sound like a good kid.  It can be very difficult to vacate a space that you've occupied for years or decades.  So much of what is left at the end has no value or requires special (expensive and time-consuming) disposal.  You might get called upon again and it will be difficult. 

[Ryan]

Mar 16, 2023 17:33:09 GMT -5 haapai said:

Has your dad made any moves toward vacating the space that he is renting back?  Is there anything of value in that space that he is in danger of losing?  Will he get dinged with disposal fees if the space isn't emptied?

Technically, this isn't your problem but you sound like a good kid.  It can be very difficult to vacate a space that you've occupied for years or decades.  So much of what is left at the end has no value or requires special (expensive and time-consuming) disposal.  You might get called upon again and it will be difficult. 

He has to be out by the end of April, so that is a good thing.  He's actually motivated to get out even early because he's paying a prorated amount for utilities/property taxes and it comes out to maybe like $80/day.  I think he was kind of surprised at the cost to operate the building, when you're paying monthly (utilities) or semi-annually (property taxes), you don't think about it breaking down to how much it costs per day.  

Still I don't think he totally understands the issue, he knows the building costs were ultimately too high, but doesn't seem like he gets that he essentially was selling inventory to fund the losses.  Inventory was cut by 2/3 and cash was still low.