Will there be Lawyers at the Pearly Gates

[Tiny]

Checking to make sure that all the i's were dotted and t's crossed on anything religious that was "beyond" the recipient's control?  

This article made me laugh:    All baptisms performed by Phoenix priest invalid because he changed one word  

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/all-baptisms-performed-by-phoenix-priest-invalid-because-he-changed-one-word/ar-AATSLw5?li=BBnb7Kz

Arango, who has been practicing as a priest for more than two decades, used the phrase “We baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," instead of "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."



"The issue with using 'We' is that it is not the community that baptizes a person, rather, it is Christ, and Him alone, who presides at all of the sacraments, and so it is Christ Jesus who baptizes," Olmsted said.

The Diocese of Phoenix said Arango "has not disqualified himself from his vocation and ministry" and "remains a priest in good standing."



Those who believe they or their children were baptized by Arango can fill out a form online to be properly baptized. Subsequent sacraments, including marriage, may need to be repeated by those who had invalid baptisms performed by Arango, according to the Diocese of Phoenix.

And then I "cried" alittle:   How many people have shown up at the Pearly Gates and been turned away because of a technicality  when they were baptized or married (or what if it was when they Confessed that one heinous sin (and then never did it again!)??        How many people have been denied Heaven because of someone else's actions even if those actions were done intending no 'malice' ?      

[chiver78]

 


I'll reserve other comments, since some posters think I hate Catholicism. 

[busymom]

From a Protestant perspective, it is God who gives the blessing during Baptism, so if the priest says a word wrong, it shouldn't make any difference.  But then, I'm Protestant, so what do I know...   


I can't even imagine the anxiety this must be giving some people.  I was a baby when I was baptized, and can't imagine worrying that they'll turn me away at the gates of Heaven if the pastor used a wrong word.  

[Tennesseer]

Those affected were baptized with good intention.  The Power-That-Be doesn't care about nouns and pronouns.

[Tiny]

I'm guessing the incorrect wording was published in hand outs at the services - so the attendees could follow along and participate. Perhaps someone who got the hand out realized the mistake and complained in a loud and vocal way?

I will admit, I'm kind of surprised this "mistake" - weather in a handouts meant to be kept as a "memento" of the occasion by participants OR only spoken during the course of the ceremony made it beyond the walls of office where the priest who said the wrong words or published the wrong words in handouts was "spoken to" by his superior. I'm surprised the documents were corrected so that going forward they would be correct and that the priest wasn't advised to update his "script".

I'm surprised anything was said for something that seems so trivial and easily corrected going forward. Not like some other stuff the Church swept under the rug...


And yes, if it turns out the God of the Bible is the real deal  - I hope it's the compassionate and merciful version of it and not the vengeful grudge holding version. 

[dondub]

There aren’t any Pearly Gates anyway so no biggie.

[Tiny]

IDK about no Pearly Gates.... I'm pretty sure I had a "holy card" with an image of the Pearly Gates as a kid... you know one of those ones that when you held it one way it showed the Gates sort of open and then when you tilted the card the Gates Opened wide and the sky behind it got brighter. I think I got it for being the only kid in class to ace a spelling test in 3rd grade.

[Tennesseer]

In 1950s Catholic Grammer school, we hade Little King day in our school's cafegymatorium.  A small statue of Jesus was set on a table with a bucket to its side.  We students walked up to it and put our spare change in the bucket for a long forgotten reason.  I think the money was used to replenish the nuns' liquor, beer and wine.

[dondub]

Feb 15, 2022 17:08:50 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

In 1950s Catholic Grammer school, we hade Little King day in our school's cafegymatorium.  A small statue of Jesus was set on a table with a bucket to its side.  We students walked up to it and put our spare change in the bucket for a long forgotten reason.  I think the money was used to replenish the nuns' liquor, beer and wine.

Pagan babies!

[Tennesseer]

Feb 15, 2022 17:13:46 GMT -5 dondub said:

Feb 15, 2022 17:08:50 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

In 1950s Catholic Grammer school, we hade Little King day in our school's cafegymatorium.  A small statue of Jesus was set on a table with a bucket to its side.  We students walked up to it and put our spare change in the bucket for a long forgotten reason.  I think the money was used to replenish the nuns' liquor, beer and wine.

Pagan babies!

I got the role of one of the three Magi in our first grade Nativity play because I had at home a baptismal chalice. When I brought it in for the Christmas play the nun was kind enough not to correct me as I had brought in an eye wash glass.

[dondub]

Feb 15, 2022 17:28:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 15, 2022 17:13:46 GMT -5 dondub said:

Pagan babies!

I got the role of one of the three Magi in our first grade Nativity play because I had at home a baptismal chalice. When I brought it in for the Christmas play the nun was kind enough not to correct me as I had brought in an eye wash glass.

www.brooklineconnection.com/history/Schools/PaganBabies.html

[Tennesseer]

Feb 15, 2022 18:04:54 GMT -5 dondub said:

Feb 15, 2022 17:28:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I got the role of one of the three Magi in our first grade Nativity play because I had at home a baptismal chalice. When I brought it in for the Christmas play the nun was kind enough not to correct me as I had brought in an eye wash glass.

www.brooklineconnection.com/history/Schools/PaganBabies.html

Much like the Mormons after the fact baptizing the Jews who died during the Holocaust. Jews around the world were appalled at the actions of the Mormons as were many other faiths and sects.

[teen persuasion]

Feb 15, 2022 17:13:46 GMT -5 dondub said:

Feb 15, 2022 17:08:50 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

In 1950s Catholic Grammer school, we hade Little King day in our school's cafegymatorium.  A small statue of Jesus was set on a table with a bucket to its side.  We students walked up to it and put our spare change in the bucket for a long forgotten reason.  I think the money was used to replenish the nuns' liquor, beer and wine.

Pagan babies!

I remember the nuns collecting change to baptize Pagan babies, too!  We used to snicker about buying babies for $5, even as kids we thought it was ridiculous.  This was 1970s, even early 80s.

[teen persuasion]

Back to the OP: it doesn't make any sense that one word (singular vs plural pronoun) invalidates the sacrament.

We were always taught that anyone can baptize, not just a priest. There was even the concept of Baptism of Intent (IIRC) - just the desire to be baptized at the last second before death was enough to "count" as truly being baptized.

I know I learned about this more than once over 9 years Catholic elementary school, 4 years Catholic HS, 4 years Jesuit college.


I did have to laugh at all the banter on Twitter about the story - oops, didn't say the right magic words for the spell to work. Or, it's leviOsa, not levioSAR.

[busymom]

That's a good point, teen persuasion.  I'd almost forgotten that nurses were allowed to baptize newborn babies, if it didn't look like they were going to survive until a pastor or priest could arrive at the hospital.  So, what is the opinion of the Catholic church on emergency baptisms?  Are they valid?

[dondub]

Feb 15, 2022 21:37:53 GMT -5 busymom said:

That's a good point, teen persuasion.  I'd almost forgotten that nurses were allowed to baptize newborn babies, if it didn't look like they were going to survive until a pastor or priest could arrive at the hospital.  So, what is the opinion of the Catholic church on emergency baptisms?  Are they valid?

The church can deem anything it wants to be valid. Latest validity moment was Pope Ratzo I and his support of pedophilia back in Munich. So valid they made him Pope!

[Opti]

Feb 15, 2022 17:08:50 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

In 1950s Catholic Grammer school, we hade Little King day in our school's cafegymatorium.  A small statue of Jesus was set on a table with a bucket to its side.  We students walked up to it and put our spare change in the bucket for a long forgotten reason.  I think the money was used to replenish the nuns' liquor, beer and wine.

our school's cafegymatorium


                       

[Tennesseer]

Feb 15, 2022 21:37:53 GMT -5 busymom said:

That's a good point, teen persuasion.  I'd almost forgotten that nurses were allowed to baptize newborn babies, if it didn't look like they were going to survive until a pastor or priest could arrive at the hospital.  So, what is the opinion of the Catholic church on emergency baptisms?  Are they valid?

And if the baby didn't survive before being baptizec, it went to limbo according to my grammar school nuns.

[irishpad]

Feb 15, 2022 21:37:53 GMT -5 busymom said:

That's a good point, teen persuasion .  I'd almost forgotten that nurses were allowed to baptize newborn babies, if it didn't look like they were going to survive until a pastor or priest could arrive at the hospital.  So, what is the opinion of the Catholic church on emergency baptisms?  Are they valid?

Yes they are valid.   Even a non-Christian can do a valid baptism if they do it with the intention of doing what the church does when it normally baptizes a person and using the Trinitarian formula (in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit)   Paragraph 1256 from the Catechism.   I too find it odd that they declared those baptisms (of that priest in Phoenix)  invalid since the intention of all parties was to do a valid baptism.  I could do a sacrament in an illicit manner (not following the form prescribed) but it would still be considered valid.  Like if I messed up on some of the words in the Eucharistic Prayer, even though I messed up (illicit) it would be considered valid.      

[irishpad]

Feb 15, 2022 23:22:44 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 15, 2022 21:37:53 GMT -5 busymom said:

That's a good point, teen persuasion .  I'd almost forgotten that nurses were allowed to baptize newborn babies, if it didn't look like they were going to survive until a pastor or priest could arrive at the hospital.  So, what is the opinion of the Catholic church on emergency baptisms?  Are they valid?

And if the baby didn't survive before being baptizec, it went to limbo according to my grammar school nuns.

Forget about the whole limbo thing.  That was a theory proposed by St. Augustine when he was dealing with the question about what happens to an innocent that didn't have an opportunity to get baptized.   That theory was never adopted by church teaching.   That theory somehow got in the Baltimore Catechism which was used in the United States.   Make a reference to Limbo to other Catholics around the world and they wouldn't know what you are talking about.   Limbo is so 5th century  

[Tennesseer]

Feb 15, 2022 23:43:28 GMT -5 irishpad said:

Feb 15, 2022 23:22:44 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

And if the baby didn't survive before being baptizec, it went to limbo according to my grammar school nuns.

Forget about the whole limbo thing.  That was a theory proposed by St. Augustine when he was dealing with the question about what happens to an innocent that didn't have an opportunity to get baptized.   That theory was never adopted by church teaching.   That theory somehow got in the Baltimore Catechism which was used in the United States.   Make a reference to Limbo to other Catholics around the world and they wouldn't know what you are talking about.   Limbo is so 5th century  

I know. But I learned about it in the '50s via the Baltimore Catechism. I think it was after high school that limbo was finally trashed. Like it was the baby's fault it wasn't baptized so punish the baby. Never made sense to me.

[dondub]

Feb 15, 2022 23:52:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 15, 2022 23:43:28 GMT -5 irishpad said:

Forget about the whole limbo thing.  That was a theory proposed by St. Augustine when he was dealing with the question about what happens to an innocent that didn't have an opportunity to get baptized.   That theory was never adopted by church teaching.   That theory somehow got in the Baltimore Catechism which was used in the United States.   Make a reference to Limbo to other Catholics around the world and they wouldn't know what you are talking about.   Limbo is so 5th century  

I know. But I learned about it in the '50s via the Baltimore Catechism. I think it was after high school that limbo was finally trashed. Like it was the baby's fault it wasn't baptized so punish the baby. Never made sense to me.

[dondub]

Of course to escape limbo you gotta do this...

[Tiny]

Feb 15, 2022 23:52:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 15, 2022 23:43:28 GMT -5 irishpad said:

Forget about the whole limbo thing.  That was a theory proposed by St. Augustine when he was dealing with the question about what happens to an innocent that didn't have an opportunity to get baptized.   That theory was never adopted by church teaching.   That theory somehow got in the Baltimore Catechism which was used in the United States.   Make a reference to Limbo to other Catholics around the world and they wouldn't know what you are talking about.   Limbo is so 5th century  

I know. But I learned about it in the '50s via the Baltimore Catechism. I think it was after high school that limbo was finally trashed. Like it was the baby's fault it wasn't baptized so punish the baby. Never made sense to me.

No,  I learned about Limbo in my Catholic Grade School in the 1970's.     

Limbo didn't "close" until 2007?    www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/world/europe/21briefs-limbo.html   

I have an older  still born brother in a separate area of our Catholic Cemetery with a numbered marker.   He's listed as Boy Our Family Last Name.   He was buried in '58 or '59.    I had "hints" growing up that something had happened in the past to make me a "special" baby - for my older parents - beyond them being older...   but no one ever talked about it.   And talking about babies in limbo was taboo.    I had no idea (i was born mid 1960's) .   My poor parents  and maybe my poor older siblings who may have some recollection of this pregnancy that did not end well.