qofcc
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,869
|
Post by qofcc on Nov 18, 2021 11:29:28 GMT -5
In a situation where I'm trying to figure out options and give advice but I have no decision making authority. I've been researching options and looking for help brainstorming - you guys are always great at seeing things from different perspectives.
Mom is 82 and lives in Eastern PA. I live in Western NY so hours away and have never lived in that area doing all of my research online. Sis lives near mom and is a nurse but right now mom is mad at her and her family and they're frustrated with Mom and I'm playing peacemaker. If disaster strikes and someone has to make a decision for mom, it's going to be sis and not me. Parents divorced when I was 6 and she was 2 and they never forgave me for moving back to WNY with my dad when I was 12. We get along OK and I love them and do whatever I can for them. I visit annually and talk to mom a few times a month when she calls me or bothers to answer her phone but we're not close except when she's having a crisis and wants my advice which half the time she doesn't take.
So Mom did not do anything in the way of financial planning for her old age and until recently has been unwilling to share too many details about her finances or her medical issues. She's not dumb - she has a PHD in Psychology but she's doesn't know how to send a text message and she's not financially savvy. She also protects her privacy by lying and being a psychologist she's really good at telling people plausable stories that she thinks they want to hear and we believe her until she tells me one thing and my sister another and we compare notes and figure out what actually happened. This isn't an old age thing - she's been like this her whole life.
I went to visit Mom in June and she met us at a restaurant and somehow forgot to put the car in park while she was looking through a shopping bag on her lap. Her car rolled into the HVAC system (while she was in the drivers seat) and caused $10K of damage (her auto insurance paid). She said she didn't feel the car moving until she hit. She told one story to the restaurant employees in the parking lot, another to us, then something slightly different to the restaurant manager and she refused to tell sis until I told her if she didn't I would. The manager was very nice and told the police they'd handle it privately and didn't press charges but this was just the latest of at least a half dozen minor car accidents over the last 5 years. She also has has issues with sleepwalking/realistic nightmares where she thinks there's an intruder in her house. One time she "held them at gunpoint" and called the police. Police had sis take away her gun (IDK if she acutally had bullets). She's also been falling - a few months ago she said she felt dizzy and grabbed for a bookcase (IDK how large or heavy) to steady herself and it fell over on her and she was trapped for a few hours until she felt well enough to move things away and get up - she ended up with minor bruises.
Recently she called me and said she decided to stop driving because she agreed with what I've been telling her she could end up killing someone. Then she called and said she sold her car and I asked how she's going to get groceries and stuff and she said she stocked up before she sold it and she plans to walk to the convenience store if she needs stuff and sis and her family are not available (a mile away in the winter down a hill in PA). Sis says mom told her she got rid of the car because the transmission went. Sis doesn't believe she actually sold it because she doesn't have internet and doesn't know many people and she isn't saying who she sold it to. We're speculating her insurance was cancelled - which it should be! - but suspect ther may be a more recent accident. She has other medical issues - heart stents that need to be replaced from her triple bypass surgery, has metal pins put in her spine a couple years ago, had breast cancer recently and is having some cognitive decline (but it's hard to measure since she's always been a little batty).
Clearly she should not be living alone without assistance/supervision. She has told me she feels like the house is now too much for her - physically and financially - and she's ready to look into options for moving but she doesn't know where to look and she's overwhelmed at the thought of going through all her stuff and packing. Her friends told her about an income based senior apartment and she said she applied but there's a 3 year wait list. I don't think she can wait 3 years. As far as groceries, I told her if she gives me her SNAP and debit card info, I can take her order over the phone and have Walmart deliver her groceries and order stuff online from CVS and Target as she needs it. She is applying for a free senior bus pass that is supposed to offer door-to-door transportation for appointments. Sis & husband & 2 college age kids live ~20 min away and have been driving her to appointments and doing things around the house as needed but they are all very busy with work/school. I also told her if she finds a place to live, I'll take a week off work and help her gather the stuff she wants to keep and get it moved over and set up at the new place and the rest of the stuff in her house we can find someone to make it go away before listing the house. None of her belongings have any more than yard sale value.
Financials: Owns home - Zillow says value is ~$150K but house is pretty run down and her dog has destroyed the flooring so I'm thinking realistically $120-130K as-is. I think she has $5-7K in a savings account (she hasn't given me access to her bank records). Her SS check is $1400-1500/mo. She did not do any trust/estate planning. I know she had a will in the past. I think it says SIS is executor. I don't think she gave sis POA. She's not sure if she feels comfortable giving me POA. Sis is emergeny contact for healthcare and is probably proxy but she hasn't given SIS access to her electronic health records. She said she might feel comfortable giving that to me but hasn't done so yet.
She income qualifies for income based senior housing. There are 16 properties in her area. I've called them all. Still waiting on some callbacks but half have waiting lists > 3 years. 2 said their waiting lists are probably around a year but she should apply because sometimes the list goes much faster, there might only be 50 people ahead of her. I requested applications. I think low-income senior apartments make the best sense financially and if she had a medic alert bracelet and people nearby and maintenance people to shovel, etc and without driving I think she might be fine for quite a while.
PA has a new domicile care program that looks fantastic but apparently it is not yet available in her county (local office of aging said they've been getting requests and want to participate but they're not active yet) and it wouldn't make sense for her to move an hour away from family. There are some independent living senior places but the waiting lists are also long and the cost is much higher. Assisted living has openings immediately, but we're looking at $3-5K/mo and with her income and assets she would only have enough money for care for ~3 years at which point she'd have to apply for medicaid and go to a nursing home. I'm waiting on callbacks from some of the "care homes" which are less expensive and she might be able to pay for 5-6 yers.
Sis has been offering for the last 10 years to build an apartment for mom in her basement (basement doesn't have many windows but is currently a nice family room and bigger than mom's house) but mom doesn't want to live in the basement, if she lives with them she want's to live in BIL's home office - a glass walled room in the center of the house right on the other side of the wall from their bed - and share their bathroom. He said that's happing over his dead body and I don't blame him. They have looked into buying a bigger house with an inlaw suite but they are just a couple of years away from being empty nesters and wanted to downsize not spend more money to upsize - and they resent that mom doesn't respect their privacy or the cleanliness of their home and they don't want her pets. They really don't want her to live with them but they're torn feeling obligated but not wanting to do it if there's another choice.
I think it's too late at this point to put the proceeds from the house into a trust because it's highly likely she's going to need nursing home level care within the 5 year lookback period. If she can get into senior housing, I think the best option for preserving some assets would be for mom to use the PA Medicaid rule that says you can give $500/mo gifts without being counted against you to gift some money to me and sis with the understanding we wouldn't spend it while she's alive in case she needed things later we'd pay for them out of that money. When my dad went into a nursing home it seemed like there was a ton of stuff not covered - haircuts, cable TV channels he wanted, replacing his TV, tablet, phone, electric razor when they broke/wore out, replacing his wardrobe when he gained/lost significant weight, special orthotic shoes, snacks and restaurant meals he wanted for treats, deodorant, lotion, etc other than the generic brands they provice, etc. I easily spent $200/mo on these things. Not sure if she trusts us to do that. I wasn't expecting to inherit anything. Sis was but she is doing fine financially and would rather mom spend the money to not live with her than inherit the house.
Sis offered to have mom sign the house over to her (since mom has always promised to leave it to her) and she and DH would fix it up and rent it to supplement mom's income to pay rent somewhere else but now mom thinks sis is trying to steal her house - that's part of their argument. I told sis she can't do that for multiple reasons - it would have made sense 10 years ago but now if mom went into a nursing home within the 5 year lookback period PA Medicaid could sue both of us for her care based on the value of the house now - or take the house back and she'd lose all of the money they put into it - or if she sold it, she'd have capital gains based on mom's cost basis not stepped up value if they inherited it and it wouldn't be a homestead exemption because it would be an investment property.
My other idea was to see if while she's waiting for housing, could we try to find her a roommate/companion - maybe a person who works in healthcare - who could take the two upstairs bedrooms to live rent free in exchange for doing light housework/dishes and generally keeping an eye on things and driving her to the occasional appointment if needed. But I'm not sure if she'd go for that.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Nov 18, 2021 11:37:36 GMT -5
Welcome back! I’m in northeastern PA. If you are in my county (odds are probably slim), I might be able to point you in the right direction. Feel free to message me.
Best of luck!
|
|
qofcc
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,869
|
Post by qofcc on Nov 18, 2021 12:51:48 GMT -5
Welcome back! I’m in northeastern PA. If you are in my county (odds are probably slim), I might be able to point you in the right direction. Feel free to message me. Best of luck! thanks - I spoke with the office of the aging in that county and the nearest adjacent county. I have the contact info for all of the places I just haven't spoken with all of them yet. Biggest issue is the cheap options have a long waiting list and I'm afraid if we go with the more expensive options, she'll blow through the money well before she dies and end up having no choice but to go into a nursing home because she won't be able to pay for assisted living level care.
|
|
gs11rmb
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 12:43:39 GMT -5
Posts: 3,299
|
Post by gs11rmb on Nov 18, 2021 12:58:40 GMT -5
Will any of the nicer assisted living places let her stay if/when she runs out of money to pay and has to rely on Medicaid?
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 25,650
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Nov 18, 2021 14:16:10 GMT -5
Only thing I can add since not in area is don’t let length of waiting list deter you from putting mom on list. By the time an apartment come up half the people on th list have made other arrangements, died are aren’t ready to move. People put names on list but don’t think to remove their names when they make other arrangements. Good luck.
|
|
qofcc
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,869
|
Post by qofcc on Nov 18, 2021 14:23:47 GMT -5
Will any of the nicer assisted living places let her stay if/when she runs out of money to pay and has to rely on Medicaid? As far as I can tell if an assisted living place has an attached nursing home then they can move you into the nursing home part but you can't stay in the assisted living part on Medicaid. Assisted/independent living is much nicer and you have privacy. Most nursing homes have double occupancy rooms like hospital rooms with a curtain and Medicaid won't pay for a private room if a double room is available. Having to give up your privacy and share a bedroom with a stranger seems like a horrible way to live the end of your life. My dad had so much trouble adjusting to it the nursing home he was in came up with a situation where they "had to temporarily" move him to a private room because they needed his double room for two female residents and they told me they would do all they could to make sure a double room never came available where he would have to move back.
|
|
resolution
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:09:56 GMT -5
Posts: 6,966
Mini-Profile Name Color: 305b2b
|
Post by resolution on Nov 18, 2021 14:35:39 GMT -5
She income qualifies for income based senior housing. There are 16 properties in her area. I've called them all. Still waiting on some callbacks but half have waiting lists > 3 years. 2 said their waiting lists are probably around a year but she should apply because sometimes the list goes much faster, there might only be 50 people ahead of her. I requested applications. I think low-income senior apartments make the best sense financially and if she had a medic alert bracelet and people nearby and maintenance people to shovel, etc and without driving I think she might be fine for quite a while. Thoughts? Suggestions? While the most important thing is going to be what your mother will agree to do, I would try for the income based senior housing. Make sure you help her complete the applications for the housing and get the process started while she is willing. PA is one of the only states that is actively enforcing filial support laws, where children can be held accountable to pay their parent's nursing home expenses. This article includes a list of things you can do to try to reduce your potential liability, and a lot of it focuses on helping your mom to apply and provide verification for whatever programs she is eligible to receive. I would also avoid having her gift her money away, as it will reduce the resources she has available for her care. www.paelderlaw.net/pennsylvanias-filial-support-law-children-can-be-held-responsible-for-parents-unpaid-nursing-home-bill/
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,113
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 18, 2021 15:31:10 GMT -5
We found out that in Iowa Medicaid does not cover Assisted Living.
I would put her on every low income senior housing list you can get her on.
The nursing home where my dad was only had double rooms--except for the hospice room. Apparently they converted two rooms for a hospice room with a family room attached.
Sadly by the time he went to a nursing home, he was too far gone to care about loss of privacy or anything else.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,306
|
Post by swamp on Nov 18, 2021 15:43:58 GMT -5
Why are you worrying about protecting her assets? She doesn’t have any. Use her money for her care and then switch to Medicaid when it runs out.
Get on the waiting list, sell her house, and in the meantime get a small apartment.
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 25,650
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Nov 18, 2021 16:16:41 GMT -5
In a situation where I'm trying to figure out options and give advice but I have no decision making authority. I've been researching options and looking for help brainstorming - you guys are always great at seeing things from different perspectives. Mom is 82 and lives in Eastern PA. I live in Western NY so hours away and have never lived in that area doing all of my research online. Sis lives near mom and is a nurse but right now mom is mad at her and her family and they're frustrated with Mom and I'm playing peacemaker. If disaster strikes and someone has to make a decision for mom, it's going to be sis and not me. Parents divorced when I was 6 and she was 2 and they never forgave me for moving back to WNY with my dad when I was 12. We get along OK and I love them and do whatever I can for them. I visit annually and talk to mom a few times a month when she calls me or bothers to answer her phone but we're not close except when she's having a crisis and wants my advice which half the time she doesn't take. So Mom did not do anything in the way of financial planning for her old age and until recently has been unwilling to share too many details about her finances or her medical issues. She's not dumb - she has a PHD in Psychology but she's doesn't know how to send a text message and she's not financially savvy. She also protects her privacy by lying and being a psychologist she's really good at telling people plausable stories that she thinks they want to hear and we believe her until she tells me one thing and my sister another and we compare notes and figure out what actually happened. This isn't an old age thing - she's been like this her whole life. I went to visit Mom in June and she met us at a restaurant and somehow forgot to put the car in park while she was looking through a shopping bag on her lap. Her car rolled into the HVAC system (while she was in the drivers seat) and caused $10K of damage (her auto insurance paid). She said she didn't feel the car moving until she hit. She told one story to the restaurant employees in the parking lot, another to us, then something slightly different to the restaurant manager and she refused to tell sis until I told her if she didn't I would. The manager was very nice and told the police they'd handle it privately and didn't press charges but this was just the latest of at least a half dozen minor car accidents over the last 5 years. She also has has issues with sleepwalking/realistic nightmares where she thinks there's an intruder in her house. One time she "held them at gunpoint" and called the police. Police had sis take away her gun (IDK if she acutally had bullets). She's also been falling - a few months ago she said she felt dizzy and grabbed for a bookcase (IDK how large or heavy) to steady herself and it fell over on her and she was trapped for a few hours until she felt well enough to move things away and get up - she ended up with minor bruises. Recently she called me and said she decided to stop driving because she agreed with what I've been telling her she could end up killing someone. Then she called and said she sold her car and I asked how she's going to get groceries and stuff and she said she stocked up before she sold it and she plans to walk to the convenience store if she needs stuff and sis and her family are not available (a mile away in the winter down a hill in PA). Sis says mom told her she got rid of the car because the transmission went. Sis doesn't believe she actually sold it because she doesn't have internet and doesn't know many people and she isn't saying who she sold it to. We're speculating her insurance was cancelled - which it should be! - but suspect ther may be a more recent accident. She has other medical issues - heart stents that need to be replaced from her triple bypass surgery, has metal pins put in her spine a couple years ago, had breast cancer recently and is having some cognitive decline (but it's hard to measure since she's always been a little batty). Clearly she should not be living alone without assistance/supervision. She has told me she feels like the house is now too much for her - physically and financially - and she's ready to look into options for moving but she doesn't know where to look and she's overwhelmed at the thought of going through all her stuff and packing. Her friends told her about an income based senior apartment and she said she applied but there's a 3 year wait list. I don't think she can wait 3 years. As far as groceries, I told her if she gives me her SNAP and debit card info, I can take her order over the phone and have Walmart deliver her groceries and order stuff online from CVS and Target as she needs it. She is applying for a free senior bus pass that is supposed to offer door-to-door transportation for appointments. Sis & husband & 2 college age kids live ~20 min away and have been driving her to appointments and doing things around the house as needed but they are all very busy with work/school. I also told her if she finds a place to live, I'll take a week off work and help her gather the stuff she wants to keep and get it moved over and set up at the new place and the rest of the stuff in her house we can find someone to make it go away before listing the house. None of her belongings have any more than yard sale value. Financials: Owns home - Zillow says value is ~$150K but house is pretty run down and her dog has destroyed the flooring so I'm thinking realistically $120-130K as-is. I think she has $5-7K in a savings account (she hasn't given me access to her bank records). Her SS check is $1400-1500/mo. She did not do any trust/estate planning. I know she had a will in the past. I think it says SIS is executor. I don't think she gave sis POA. She's not sure if she feels comfortable giving me POA. Sis is emergeny contact for healthcare and is probably proxy but she hasn't given SIS access to her electronic health records. She said she might feel comfortable giving that to me but hasn't done so yet. She income qualifies for income based senior housing. There are 16 properties in her area. I've called them all. Still waiting on some callbacks but half have waiting lists > 3 years. 2 said their waiting lists are probably around a year but she should apply because sometimes the list goes much faster, there might only be 50 people ahead of her. I requested applications. I think low-income senior apartments make the best sense financially and if she had a medic alert bracelet and people nearby and maintenance people to shovel, etc and without driving I think she might be fine for quite a while. PA has a new domicile care program that looks fantastic but apparently it is not yet available in her county (local office of aging said they've been getting requests and want to participate but they're not active yet) and it wouldn't make sense for her to move an hour away from family. There are some independent living senior places but the waiting lists are also long and the cost is much higher. Assisted living has openings immediately, but we're looking at $3-5K/mo and with her income and assets she would only have enough money for care for ~3 years at which point she'd have to apply for medicaid and go to a nursing home. I'm waiting on callbacks from some of the "care homes" which are less expensive and she might be able to pay for 5-6 yers. Sis has been offering for the last 10 years to build an apartment for mom in her basement (basement doesn't have many windows but is currently a nice family room and bigger than mom's house) but mom doesn't want to live in the basement, if she lives with them she want's to live in BIL's home office - a glass walled room in the center of the house right on the other side of the wall from their bed - and share their bathroom. He said that's happing over his dead body and I don't blame him. They have looked into buying a bigger house with an inlaw suite but they are just a couple of years away from being empty nesters and wanted to downsize not spend more money to upsize - and they resent that mom doesn't respect their privacy or the cleanliness of their home and they don't want her pets. They really don't want her to live with them but they're torn feeling obligated but not wanting to do it if there's another choice. I think it's too late at this point to put the proceeds from the house into a trust because it's highly likely she's going to need nursing home level care within the 5 year lookback period. If she can get into senior housing, I think the best option for preserving some assets would be for mom to use the PA Medicaid rule that says you can give $500/mo gifts without being counted against you to gift some money to me and sis with the understanding we wouldn't spend it while she's alive in case she needed things later we'd pay for them out of that money. When my dad went into a nursing home it seemed like there was a ton of stuff not covered - haircuts, cable TV channels he wanted, replacing his TV, tablet, phone, electric razor when they broke/wore out, replacing his wardrobe when he gained/lost significant weight, special orthotic shoes, snacks and restaurant meals he wanted for treats, deodorant, lotion, etc other than the generic brands they provice, etc. I easily spent $200/mo on these things. Not sure if she trusts us to do that. I wasn't expecting to inherit anything. Sis was but she is doing fine financially and would rather mom spend the money to not live with her than inherit the house. Sis offered to have mom sign the house over to her (since mom has always promised to leave it to her) and she and DH would fix it up and rent it to supplement mom's income to pay rent somewhere else but now mom thinks sis is trying to steal her house - that's part of their argument. I told sis she can't do that for multiple reasons - it would have made sense 10 years ago but now if mom went into a nursing home within the 5 year lookback period PA Medicaid could sue both of us for her care based on the value of the house now - or take the house back and she'd lose all of the money they put into it - or if she sold it, she'd have capital gains based on mom's cost basis not stepped up value if they inherited it and it wouldn't be a homestead exemption because it would be an investment property. My other idea was to see if while she's waiting for housing, could we try to find her a roommate/companion - maybe a person who works in healthcare - who could take the two upstairs bedrooms to live rent free in exchange for doing light housework/dishes and generally keeping an eye on things and driving her to the occasional appointment if needed. But I'm not sure if she'd go for that. Thoughts? Suggestions? I just saw this - I would chew off my right arm before I would have a room mate. Didn't like room mates when young and old age NO WAY but that's just me. Try to find independent living if she is able and what she can afford. Use HER money to do what is best for her and not try to protect it!! It will all wash out in the end unless someone is expecting an inheritance JMHO I never understand trying to protect assets and letting government/state pick up tab But again that's just my take on it. I'm not a lot younger than your Mom but this is something I have discussed with my son - in fact I discussed it with him when I hit 62
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,196
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 18, 2021 16:19:18 GMT -5
I would also say it's not cool to try to get her a roommate who works in health care with the intent to mooch off that person for free assistance. You wouldn't do your job for free would you? Why do people assume health care workers want to do so?
If you want her to stay in her home then you should shell out the expense. That is what assets are supposed to be for.
|
|
resolution
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:09:56 GMT -5
Posts: 6,966
Mini-Profile Name Color: 305b2b
|
Post by resolution on Nov 18, 2021 16:52:32 GMT -5
My husband's grandmother had a caretaker that lived with her and provided that kind of assistance. She got free room and board plus $50,000 per year.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,196
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 18, 2021 16:59:34 GMT -5
My husband's grandmother had a caretaker that lived with her and provided that kind of assistance. S he got free room and board plus $50,000 per year.So you paid her ON TOP of free room/board. No where in the OP does it mention a stipend. Just live there for free. Which maybe someone would take but dealing with elderly people myself at the moment it seems that A LOT of people assume that health care works in particular should do work for little to nothing. Unless rent there is so sky high it's either accept the deal or homelessness I wouldn't consider that a fair deal myself. The mother has the assets they just don't want to spend them. If she had none I would think differently.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,704
|
Post by raeoflyte on Nov 18, 2021 17:01:33 GMT -5
I would also say it's not cool to try to get her a roommate who works in health care with the intent to mooch off that person for free assistance. You wouldn't do your job for free would you? Why do people assume health care workers want to do so? If you want her to stay in her home then you should shell out the expense. That is what assets are supposed to be for. Free rent could be a good trade though. Set it up for a specific # of hours per month, what tasks, and keep a ledger on both sides if mom agrees and you could find someone.
|
|
haapai
Junior Associate
Character
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:40:06 GMT -5
Posts: 5,877
|
Post by haapai on Nov 18, 2021 17:09:48 GMT -5
Why are you worrying about protecting her assets? She doesn’t have any. Use her money for her care and then switch to Medicaid when it runs out. Get on the waiting list, sell her house, and in the meantime get a small apartment. This is pretty much what I typed out and then decided not to post. I did not post because I have no experience with such situations. I am the peanut gallery.
I don't think, at this point, there is much chance of saving what assets she has in order to make her life more comfortable in any of the ways that you wish that you could. It's more a matter of getting her moved to a safer place and minimizing the load and stress that your sis has to deal with. Just getting her out of her house on a non-emergency basis would be a very good thing. Emptying out a house that someone has had to leave because they are in a nursing home is a financial, emotional, and legal nightmare.
You are going to have to make some choices that nobody wants to talk about. There's almost no money, not much time, and not much cooperation. You are in triage mode. Triage mode is lonely but you seem to have a good head on your shoulders.
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 25,650
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Nov 18, 2021 17:19:49 GMT -5
Why are you worrying about protecting her assets? She doesn’t have any. Use her money for her care and then switch to Medicaid when it runs out. Get on the waiting list, sell her house, and in the meantime get a small apartment. This is pretty much what I typed out and then decided not to post. I did not post because I have no experience with such situations. I am the peanut gallery.
I don't think, at this point, there is much chance of saving what assets she has in order to make her life more comfortable in any of the ways that you wish that you could. It's more a matter of getting her moved to a safer place and minimizing the load and stress that your sis has to deal with. Just getting her out of her house on a non-emergency basis would be a very good thing. Emptying out a house that someone has had to leave because they are in a nursing home is a financial, emotional, and legal nightmare.
You are going to have to make some choices that nobody wants to talk about. There's almost no money, not much time, and not much cooperation. You are in triage mode. Triage mode is lonely but you seem to have a good head on your shoulders.
I had to deal with all this on top of making my mother move here. Her health was declining and I couldn't keep dropping everything at work/home to take care of problems as they arose. I knew what benefits/places to live and so on here and was totally clueless about the state/city she lived in. I told her she had no choice. I called movers to pack her, flew over, spent the night and flew her back here. She just didn't have much choice but I know that isn't a good solution for everyone. It worked out OK. She had her own apartment until that didn't work, went into assisted living till that didn't work and had to go into a nursing home. I feel for folks dealing with this when it isn't cut and dried and there are others involved in the decision making.
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,746
|
Post by jerseygirl on Nov 18, 2021 18:28:11 GMT -5
I hired a live in caretaker for my sister, around $45000 year , that included separate bedroom snd bath. She shopped snd cooked for them, I paid for food . I was VERY fortunate to find a kind , trustworthy and hardworking woman Doubt you’d find someone willing to help with an old person just for free rent
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 21,273
|
Post by giramomma on Nov 18, 2021 19:46:23 GMT -5
A couple of suggestions: Have you looked at meals on wheels? What about contacting churches, etc? Some offer volunteers to rake, shovel snow, etc.
So. I have a mom somewhat like yours. Alters information to fit whatever narrative mom is feeling at the time. I am also not on any legal paperwork. I am also the (only) child. Which means knowing the parents health and financial standing is none of my business.
My mom needs to leave her home, but will not relinquish control. I cannot tell my mom she is moving, even though she recognizes the need. She will not respond to "you have no choice."
Mom either can't find help, pisses off the help, or won't pay for help around the house. So. as I see it, I have two options. 1) call APS
2) go to court and have her declared incompetent I'm avoiding option #2 at all costs, because I don't want to be responsible for my mom. I've spent years in therapy to undo that thinking and behaviors. Not going back to it. Which leaves 1. I think at some point mom will injure herself to the point where a dr will not release her to go back home. And that will force the issue.
The other outcome is that she decides she's upset enough with me because I'm not making choices she approves of..or somehow I'm making others do things she doesn't approve of, and she'll stop talking to me. She'd rather die alone and be "right." It presents a whole other sort of issues. But, in some ways, less complicated. In the mean time, it's not worth my energy. I know it seems rude and quite unloving. But I don't really enjoy doing things that are the equivilant of beating my head up against a wall.
Good luck. Lord knows none of this is easy.
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 25,650
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Nov 19, 2021 8:41:05 GMT -5
A couple of suggestions: Have you looked at meals on wheels? What about contacting churches, etc? Some offer volunteers to rake, shovel snow, etc.
So. I have a mom somewhat like yours. Alters information to fit whatever narrative mom is feeling at the time. I am also not on any legal paperwork. I am also the (only) child. Which means knowing the parents health and financial standing is none of my business.
My mom needs to leave her home, but will not relinquish control. I cannot tell my mom she is moving, even though she recognizes the need. She will not respond to "you have no choice."
Mom either can't find help, pisses off the help, or won't pay for help around the house. So. as I see it, I have two options. 1) call APS
2) go to court and have her declared incompetent I'm avoiding option #2 at all costs, because I don't want to be responsible for my mom. I've spent years in therapy to undo that thinking and behaviors. Not going back to it. Which leaves 1. I think at some point mom will injure herself to the point where a dr will not release her to go back home. And that will force the issue.
The other outcome is that she decides she's upset enough with me because I'm not making choices she approves of..or somehow I'm making others do things she doesn't approve of, and she'll stop talking to me. She'd rather die alone and be "right." It presents a whole other sort of issues. But, in some ways, less complicated. In the mean time, it's not worth my energy. I know it seems rude and quite unloving. But I don't really enjoy doing things that are the equivilant of beating my head up against a wall.
Good luck. Lord knows none of this is easy.
No it does not seem that way to some of us. I won't go into details but I just did what had to be done where my mother was concerned and never looked back. I also recognize that fact that my circumstances were different as far as a life long relationship was concerned. Don't beat yourself up over your decisions or feelings. You deal with enough in your life now as it is. OK I'll shut up. It just hurts for me to see the pain/guilt/suffering some go thru.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,113
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 19, 2021 8:43:29 GMT -5
I would also say it's not cool to try to get her a roommate who works in health care with the intent to mooch off that person for free assistance. You wouldn't do your job for free would you? Why do people assume health care workers want to do so? If you want her to stay in her home then you should shell out the expense. That is what assets are supposed to be for. Free rent could be a good trade though. Set it up for a specific # of hours per month, what tasks, and keep a ledger on both sides if mom agrees and you could find someone. The "roommate" needs some money to live on. There needs to be a stipend of some kind depending on the level of care.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,704
|
Post by raeoflyte on Nov 19, 2021 8:50:36 GMT -5
Free rent could be a good trade though. Set it up for a specific # of hours per month, what tasks, and keep a ledger on both sides if mom agrees and you could find someone. The "roommate" needs some money to live on. There needs to be a stipend of some kind depending on the level of care. I don't think she's looking for full time care though? It sounded to me like maybe 10 hours a week. Help with dishes and laundry, a few appointments. If it was more than that it wouldn't make sense, and it's not a long term solution. CNA's here make very little money, so roommates are a given. A roommate situation with free rent wouldn't be a bad set up for a lot of people.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 21:50:28 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 9:00:17 GMT -5
I think at some point mom will injure herself to the point where a dr will not release her to go back home. And that will force the issue.
The other outcome is that she decides she's upset enough with me because I'm not making choices she approves of..or somehow I'm making others do things she doesn't approve of, and she'll stop talking to me. She'd rather die alone and be "right." It presents a whole other sort of issues. But, in some ways, less complicated. In the meantime, it's not worth my energy. I know it seems rude and quite unloving. But I don't really enjoy doing things that are the equivalent of beating my head up against a wall.
Good luck. Lord knows none of this is easy. gira, in a perfect world your mother would be a source of emotional support (and maybe even practical help) for you right now. It's really sad that she's an additional source of stress instead. Keeping your focus on taking care of yourself and your family is the right decision.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,679
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Nov 19, 2021 9:33:39 GMT -5
The "roommate" needs some money to live on. There needs to be a stipend of some kind depending on the level of care. I don't think she's looking for full time care though? It sounded to me like maybe 10 hours a week. Help with dishes and laundry, a few appointments. If it was more than that it wouldn't make sense, and it's not a long term solution. CNA's here make very little money, so roommates are a given. A roommate situation with free rent wouldn't be a bad set up for a lot of people. Not sure a live in CNA or HHA would want a deal like that. They would probably need to work a FT job elsewhere or at least a PT one.If someone lived there, they'd be dealing with issues like sleep walking and losing sleep over it. Then if she's already having issues with falls, those happen any time of day. Plus this aide would likely have to work full shifts even if they were PT. Hours vary, but day shift might be 7 to 3 and evening shift might be 3 to 11 plus commute time at a minimum.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,704
|
Post by raeoflyte on Nov 19, 2021 10:05:03 GMT -5
I definitely don't think that hired help should or would take free rent for work. I read op as possibly looking for a roommate. Someone who has eyes on mom to call for help if needed and do some very light help around the house. Maybe a ride sometimes.
Not someone who us taking shifts for full time or even part time care of mom.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,679
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Nov 19, 2021 10:27:48 GMT -5
I definitely don't think that hired help should or would take free rent for work. I read op as possibly looking for a roommate. Someone who has eyes on mom to call for help if needed and do some very light help around the house. Maybe a ride sometimes. Not someone who us taking shifts for full time or even part time care of mom. Unless they are retired. The roommate will need income. Likely from work.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,704
|
Post by raeoflyte on Nov 19, 2021 10:33:38 GMT -5
I definitely don't think that hired help should or would take free rent for work. I read op as possibly looking for a roommate. Someone who has eyes on mom to call for help if needed and do some very light help around the house. Maybe a ride sometimes. Not someone who us taking shifts for full time or even part time care of mom. Unless they are retired. The roommate will need income. Likely from work. Yes, again I'm not talking about live in help. My sister has a roommate. They share cooking and cleaning. Dsis gives roommate rides sometimes. When I've gotten very concerned about dsis and can't reach her, I call her roommate. And of course they both work. The mom here isn't ready for a nursing home and full time care, but living alone is getting to be too much. Maybe they won't get any responses if they offer it. More likely mom will put the kibosh on it before it gets that far because roommates can be a real pain. But there aren't really assets here to work with. Mom needs to take sis up on the offer to move into their basement. That would preserve the funds while signing up and waiting for senior housing. But if she won't do that, they're stuck trying to help her from afar.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,679
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Nov 19, 2021 11:56:33 GMT -5
Unless they are retired. The roommate will need income. Likely from work. Yes, again I'm not talking about live in help. My sister has a roommate. They share cooking and cleaning. Dsis gives roommate rides sometimes. When I've gotten very concerned about dsis and can't reach her, I call her roommate. And of course they both work. The mom here isn't ready for a nursing home and full time care, but living alone is getting to be too much. Maybe they won't get any responses if they offer it. More likely mom will put the kibosh on it before it gets that far because roommates can be a real pain. But there aren't really assets here to work with. Mom needs to take sis up on the offer to move into their basement. That would preserve the funds while signing up and waiting for senior housing. But if she won't do that, they're stuck trying to help her from afar. It's live in help whether you call it that or not. Any room-mate is going to figure that out quickly when they learn sleep-walking might be the least of the issues. Falling and being unable to get up for hours is a sign of future fall issues to come. Not being able to focus enough to even notice the car is moving may mean other daily life tasks are affected as well. I do agree the basement move would be the best in the short term. At least then someone can see what's really going on and better assess her real ability to function. Could they try convincing her to stay for a short time during the holidays?
|
|
qofcc
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,869
|
Post by qofcc on Nov 19, 2021 13:27:36 GMT -5
Free rent could be a good trade though. Set it up for a specific # of hours per month, what tasks, and keep a ledger on both sides if mom agrees and you could find someone. The "roommate" needs some money to live on. There needs to be a stipend of some kind depending on the level of care. right - I wasn't talking about a caretaker - someone assist with ADLs, manage medication, provide 24/7 supervision and make sure paitent is going to doctor appointments. That's a full-time job. I was talking about a roommate/companion - someone who would share the home as a roommate and take care of the light housekeeping as they would in their own home - clean the bathroom weekly, make sure the kitchen is reasonably clean on a daily basis, sweep/mop/vacuum as needed, take out the trash, shovel the walk as needed maybe help her change the bedding, but also would spend a little time each day with her after they get home from work chatting and asking how her day went, maybe sharing a meal or watching the news together just to keep an eye on her making sure she's alert and healthy and contacting her family to intervene if she is not. No more than 1-2 hours/day. As a short-term option for the 1-3 years if she opts for the getting on the waiting list for an apartment.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 19, 2021 13:35:02 GMT -5
It sounds nice in theory, but good luck finding someone like that who is trustworthy.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,306
|
Post by swamp on Nov 19, 2021 13:40:58 GMT -5
The "roommate" needs some money to live on. There needs to be a stipend of some kind depending on the level of care. right - I wasn't talking about a caretaker - someone assist with ADLs, manage medication, provide 24/7 supervision and make sure paitent is going to doctor appointments. That's a full-time job. I was talking about a roommate/companion - someone who would share the home as a roommate and take care of the light housekeeping as they would in their own home - clean the bathroom weekly, make sure the kitchen is reasonably clean on a daily basis, sweep/mop/vacuum as needed, take out the trash, shovel the walk as needed maybe help her change the bedding, but also would spend a little time each day with her after they get home from work chatting and asking how her day went, maybe sharing a meal or watching the news together just to keep an eye on her making sure she's alert and healthy and contacting her family to intervene if she is not. No more than 1-2 hours/day. As a short-term option for the 1-3 years if she opts for the getting on the waiting list for an apartment. Spin it anyway you want. It’s still a caretakers, not a roommate.
|
|