Opinion: What Kyle Rittenhouse's tears reveal about America

[Opti]

And it is well known that the central issue of his trial is whether Rittenhouse has a valid self-defense claim for the three shootings. Less familiar to the public, however, is that, by and large, the outcome of Rittenhouse’s case will turn less on the specific murky facts concerning what exactly transpired on the night of Aug. 25 than on the seemingly technical but actually essential issue of the burden of proof: Does Rittenhouse have to prove he was acting in justifiable self-defense, or does the state have to disprove it?



In Wisconsin, the state bears that burden: The prosecution must disprove at least one legal element of Rittenhouse’s self-defense claim, and do so beyond a reasonable doubt.

That the burden of proof is on the state, not the young man wielding the gun, may seem surprising to many, but Wisconsin’s approach is the mainstream one. It may be that Virginia is the last state that requires a defendant to prove he or she was acting in self-defense, after Ohio reformed its law in 2019.

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/16/rittenhouse-trial-self-defense/

[Tennesseer]

Nov 17, 2021 8:27:54 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The judge has been incredibly biased from the very beginning. I expect him to go easy on him. He's not going to get off completely, but he's not going to spend his life in jail.

The judge's cell phone has gone off several times while the court is in session.

Kyle Rittenhouse Trial Judge's Phone Rang With Lee Greenwood Trump Rally Theme

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 11:27:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 17, 2021 8:27:54 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The judge has been incredibly biased from the very beginning. I expect him to go easy on him. He's not going to get off completely, but he's not going to spend his life in jail.

The judge's cell phone has gone off several times while the court is in session.

Kyle Rittenhouse Trial Judge's Phone Rang With Lee Greenwood Trump Rally Theme

I'm apparently past my limit on Newsweek articles so I could only read about a paragraph. He shouldn't have had his phone on and it seems weird to me he had Rittenhouse pick the numbers to form the jury. 

[thyme4change]

I think the only hope we have is a hung jury. Does it only take 1 juror to prevent a conviction? But, since most people are followers, that one person will have to be strong as hell.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 11:53:06 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I think the only hope we have is a hung jury. Does it only take 1 juror to prevent a conviction? But, since most people are followers, that one person will have to be strong as hell.

A hung jury would lead to a mistrial which would lead to a new trial, correct?

[pulmonarymd]

Won't be a hung jury. They want to celebrate Thanksgiving

[Tennesseer]

Nov 17, 2021 11:44:44 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 17, 2021 11:27:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The judge's cell phone has gone off several times while the court is in session.

Kyle Rittenhouse Trial Judge's Phone Rang With Lee Greenwood Trump Rally Theme

I'm apparently past my limit on Newsweek articles so I could only read about a paragraph. He shouldn't have had his phone on and it seems weird to me he had Rittenhouse pick the numbers to form the jury. 

So am I limited.

Just Google Rittenhouse judge cell phone. Other articles out there.

[Opti]

The cellphone is not that important to me. I wonder what the outcome will be. I don't want him to become another RW poster child because he deserves it no more than Zimmerman did. I understand the car dealer's concern. But the minute someone on the dealership property kills someone, even in self defense, there are issues. They should have had a plan for if that happened.

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/10/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-tragedy-triumph/
This comment concerns me as well-

The takeaway here seems to be that if Grosskreutz had shot first and taken that head shot, he could have claimed self defense and walked, so whoever shoots first wins, at least according to the law in Wisconsin. There's something very wrong with this picture.

[swamp]

Nov 17, 2021 8:44:25 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 17, 2021 8:35:50 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

is a prosecutor allowed to appeal a ruling and sentencing? I know a defendant is.

I have no idea. swamp should know.

Limited appeal opportunities for the prosecution. They cannot appeal a sentence unless it’s an illegal sentence, like they got probation but were not eligible for it.

[Opti]

Another comment.

It's a weird case. Based on the facts alone he should probably walk, because he was physically threatened or accosted in each of the three cases before he pulled the trigger.

But that would be disastrous for the country, because it would set the precedent that you can travel anywhere in the US with your gun and kill at will as long as you're scared. And there are plenty of neighborhoods where almost anyone can seem scary to a white teenager from a small town.

Another good comment-

Sad, but probably true, but it doesn't make it right.

What should be the case - everyone within 3840 yards of person who is carrying an AR-15 is in imminent danger and should also believe their life is being threatened and can and should respond accordingly. No human can out run a bullet and shouldn't have to.

FACTS:

A bad guy with a gun is indistinguishable from a good guy with a gun.

A good guy with a gun can turn into a bad guy with a gun in the time it takes to pull the trigger.

[andi9899]

Nov 17, 2021 12:57:45 GMT -5 Opti said:

Another comment.

It's a weird case. Based on the facts alone he should probably walk, because he was physically threatened or accosted in each of the three cases before he pulled the trigger.

But that would be disastrous for the country, because it would set the precedent that you can travel anywhere in the US with your gun and kill at will as long as you're scared. And there are plenty of neighborhoods where almost anyone can seem scary to a white teenager from a small town.

Another good comment-

Sad, but probably true, but it doesn't make it right.

What should be the case - everyone within 3840 yards of person who is carrying an AR-15 is in imminent danger and should also believe their life is being threatened and can and should respond accordingly. No human can out run a bullet and shouldn't have to.

FACTS:

A bad guy with a gun is indistinguishable from a good guy with a gun.

A good guy with a gun can turn into a bad guy with a gun in the time it takes to pull the trigger.

No way should he walk. He deliberately traveled outside his home state with a gun he obtained illegally. He shot and killed 2 people and maimed one. He wouldn't have been there and scared if he had stayed his 17 yo ass at home instead of getting involved in something that had nothing to do with him.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 13:42:47 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 17, 2021 12:57:45 GMT -5 Opti said:

Another comment.

It's a weird case. Based on the facts alone he should probably walk, because he was physically threatened or accosted in each of the three cases before he pulled the trigger.

But that would be disastrous for the country, because it would set the precedent that you can travel anywhere in the US with your gun and kill at will as long as you're scared. And there are plenty of neighborhoods where almost anyone can seem scary to a white teenager from a small town.

Another good comment-

Sad, but probably true, but it doesn't make it right.

What should be the case - everyone within 3840 yards of person who is carrying an AR-15 is in imminent danger and should also believe their life is being threatened and can and should respond accordingly. No human can out run a bullet and shouldn't have to.

FACTS:

A bad guy with a gun is indistinguishable from a good guy with a gun.

A good guy with a gun can turn into a bad guy with a gun in the time it takes to pull the trigger.

No way should he walk. He deliberately traveled outside his home state with a gun he obtained illegally. He shot and killed 2 people and maimed one. He wouldn't have been there and scared if he had stayed his 17 yo ass at home instead of getting involved in something that had nothing to do with him.

The gun was in Kenosha as was his father and other relatives. Unfortunately the judge took away the gun charge right before the jury went to deliberate. 

Even though the fourth shot was in the guy's back, I think he is going to skate on the first killing. Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, deliberately following him while carrying a gun. Yet since no one saw anything, he got to walk on self defense. Unfortunately he has a claim to self defense in the remaining two incidents. Both those people saw him as an active shooter, and I would too the way he was carrying his gun in the street. Yet convictions can't happen on stupidity, only on the law and even more challenging only on the charges brought generally. 

I haven't followed the trial enough to know what I think should happen versus what I am suspecting will happen. 

[Opti]

This comment is wrong, the third person did not attack Kyle. 


Law3 is correct. It's a demonstrable fact that the only three people KR shot were shot after they attacked him. If that's not self defense, what is? They might well convict KR of lesser charges and misdemeanors to avoid another round of "mostly peaceful protests," but he seems on his way to acquittal regarding the shooting-related charges.

[happyhoix]

Nov 17, 2021 12:57:45 GMT -5 Opti said:

Another comment.

It's a weird case. Based on the facts alone he should probably walk, because he was physically threatened or accosted in each of the three cases before he pulled the trigger.

But that would be disastrous for the country, because it would set the precedent that you can travel anywhere in the US with your gun and kill at will as long as you're scared. And there are plenty of neighborhoods where almost anyone can seem scary to a white teenager from a small town.

Another good comment-

Sad, but probably true, but it doesn't make it right.

What should be the case - everyone within 3840 yards of person who is carrying an AR-15 is in imminent danger and should also believe their life is being threatened and can and should respond accordingly. No human can out run a bullet and shouldn't have to.

FACTS:

A bad guy with a gun is indistinguishable from a good guy with a gun.

A good guy with a gun can turn into a bad guy with a gun in the time it takes to pull the trigger.

I haven’t kept up with the trial, but did any of the people he shot also have a weapon and were they also pointing their weapons at him?

Is it possible for some with a gun to be able to claim fear of attack from unarmed people?

This does seem dangerously like I could start legally shooting in a crowded room if I thought the other people might rush me. But isn’t that what courageous private citizens do - rush the guy with the gun?

[andi9899]

Nov 17, 2021 14:17:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 17, 2021 13:42:47 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

No way should he walk. He deliberately traveled outside his home state with a gun he obtained illegally. He shot and killed 2 people and maimed one. He wouldn't have been there and scared if he had stayed his 17 yo ass at home instead of getting involved in something that had nothing to do with him.

The gun was in Kenosha as was his father and other relatives. Unfortunately the judge took away the gun charge right before the jury went to deliberate. 

Even though the fourth shot was in the guy's back, I think he is going to skate on the first killing. Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, deliberately following him while carrying a gun. Yet since no one saw anything, he got to walk on self defense. Unfortunately he has a claim to self defense in the remaining two incidents. Both those people saw him as an active shooter, and I would too the way he was carrying his gun in the street. Yet convictions can't happen on stupidity, only on the law and even more challenging only on the charges brought generally. 

I haven't followed the trial enough to know what I think should happen versus what I am suspecting will happen. 

This murder was on video. I've watched the trial in its entirety. No way is this kid walking.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 16:10:43 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Nov 17, 2021 12:57:45 GMT -5 Opti said:

Another comment.

It's a weird case. Based on the facts alone he should probably walk, because he was physically threatened or accosted in each of the three cases before he pulled the trigger.

But that would be disastrous for the country, because it would set the precedent that you can travel anywhere in the US with your gun and kill at will as long as you're scared. And there are plenty of neighborhoods where almost anyone can seem scary to a white teenager from a small town.

Another good comment-

Sad, but probably true, but it doesn't make it right.

What should be the case - everyone within 3840 yards of person who is carrying an AR-15 is in imminent danger and should also believe their life is being threatened and can and should respond accordingly. No human can out run a bullet and shouldn't have to.

FACTS:

A bad guy with a gun is indistinguishable from a good guy with a gun.

A good guy with a gun can turn into a bad guy with a gun in the time it takes to pull the trigger.

I haven’t kept up with the trial, but did any of the people he shot also have a weapon and were they also pointing their weapons at him?

Is it possible for some with a gun to be able to claim fear of attack from unarmed people?

This does seem dangerously like I could start legally shooting in a crowded room if I thought the other people might rush me. But isn’t that what courageous private citizens do - rush the guy with the gun?

The first guy chased him at the car dealership. No gun but aggressive, threw rocks that night. This is the guy who just got discharged and is on video as being confrontational. Rosenbaum. In pics and video at this link.
nypost.com/2020/08/28/kenosha-shooting-victim-seen-in-video-confronting-armed-men/

It gets murkier after this, because once he shot this guy and ran, people saw him as an active shooter. Huber, his second victim, did beat him on the head with a skateboard. I don't know if they have video on this. Kyle shot him after that. The only person to have a gun out, and not out right away was the survivor whose bicep was vaporized per one account. This is the trickiest one for me. Per the victim's account he talked to and approached Kyle earlier. He said he was trying to determine if he was a shooter and says he was there to film among other things.

Yes courageous private citizens are supposed to rush the guy with a gun. Huber is dead because of it. I wish I lived in the reality where Kyle was smart after the initial shooting. Call the police, or put your gun down hands up and have someone else call the police. In that reality we could have had one simple self defense trial with no impending riot. (At least I want to believe that) Instead we are in this murky mess which I expect will end better for Kyle than victims #2 and #3.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 16:49:22 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 17, 2021 14:17:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

The gun was in Kenosha as was his father and other relatives. Unfortunately the judge took away the gun charge right before the jury went to deliberate. 

Even though the fourth shot was in the guy's back, I think he is going to skate on the first killing. Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, deliberately following him while carrying a gun. Yet since no one saw anything, he got to walk on self defense. Unfortunately he has a claim to self defense in the remaining two incidents. Both those people saw him as an active shooter, and I would too the way he was carrying his gun in the street. Yet convictions can't happen on stupidity, only on the law and even more challenging only on the charges brought generally. 

I haven't followed the trial enough to know what I think should happen versus what I am suspecting will happen. 

This murder was on video. I've watched the trial in its entirety. No way is this kid walking.

So what's your opinion on Rosenbaum and that killing?

[Opti]

One video here-

heavy.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-video-photos-graphic/#:~:text=Joseph%20Rosenbaum%E2%80%99s%20Behavior%20Before%20the%20Shooting%20Part%20of,station%20parking%20lot%20getting%20agitated%20with%20another%20person.

there are also drone videos. I did not find either of them that helpful. 


I do not have a Youtube account, so I cannot watch this one.

[Opti]

I like this video. Unfortunately being stupid is not against the law. He should have stayed and called the police, not phone a friend and run.
Around 18:55 you can see Rosenbaum on the ground with someone trying to assist him and Kyle phoning a friend.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 17, 2021 17:35:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

One video here-

heavy.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-video-photos-graphic/#:~:text=Joseph%20Rosenbaum%E2%80%99s%20Behavior%20Before%20the%20Shooting%20Part%20of,station%20parking%20lot%20getting%20agitated%20with%20another%20person.

there are also drone videos. I did not find either of them that helpful. 


I do not have a Youtube account, so I cannot watch this one.

You need a Facebook account to watch it? News to me.

[Opti]

Tenn, they are age restricting some violent videos. I did not find unrestricted versions. 

The police definitely treated the armed white guys different. The worst was seeing Kyle walk with hands up towards the police vehicle, and the vehicle not even stopping to talk to him while people are yelling "he shot someone". 

[Tennesseer]

Nov 17, 2021 17:35:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

One video here-

heavy.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-video-photos-graphic/#:~:text=Joseph%20Rosenbaum%E2%80%99s%20Behavior%20Before%20the%20Shooting%20Part%20of,station%20parking%20lot%20getting%20agitated%20with%20another%20person.

there are also drone videos. I did not find either of them that helpful. 


I do not have a Youtube account, so I cannot watch this one.

On this one just tap 'Watch on Youtube' and it should open up on Youtube. Once there, acknowledge you want to watch it. It should be on the screen. Just tap 'Confirm'.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 18:30:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 17, 2021 17:35:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

One video here-

heavy.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-video-photos-graphic/#:~:text=Joseph%20Rosenbaum%E2%80%99s%20Behavior%20Before%20the%20Shooting%20Part%20of,station%20parking%20lot%20getting%20agitated%20with%20another%20person.

there are also drone videos. I did not find either of them that helpful. 


I do not have a Youtube account, so I cannot watch this one.

On this one just tap 'Watch on Youtube' and it should open up on Youtube. Once there, acknowledge you want to watch it. It should be on the screen. Just tap 'Confirm'.

I get asked to sign in and confirm my age. Are you logged into Google? 

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2021 16:49:22 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Nov 17, 2021 14:17:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

The gun was in Kenosha as was his father and other relatives. Unfortunately the judge took away the gun charge right before the jury went to deliberate. 

Even though the fourth shot was in the guy's back, I think he is going to skate on the first killing. Zimmerman stalked Trayvon, deliberately following him while carrying a gun. Yet since no one saw anything, he got to walk on self defense. Unfortunately he has a claim to self defense in the remaining two incidents. Both those people saw him as an active shooter, and I would too the way he was carrying his gun in the street. Yet convictions can't happen on stupidity, only on the law and even more challenging only on the charges brought generally. 

I haven't followed the trial enough to know what I think should happen versus what I am suspecting will happen. 

This murder was on video. I've watched the trial in its entirety. No way is this kid walking.

You have a lot more confidence in how things work in this country than I do. I pray you are right.

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 18:35:49 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 17, 2021 16:49:22 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

This murder was on video. I've watched the trial in its entirety. No way is this kid walking.

You have a lot more confidence in how things work in this country than I do. I pray you are right.

Having watched the Fatal night in Kenosha video again, I am feeling disheartened. The only positive thing was one of the armed white guys saying Huber "died a good death'. Huber tried to do the right thing and he's dead. 

[Tennesseer]

Nov 17, 2021 18:33:41 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 17, 2021 18:30:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

On this one just tap 'Watch on Youtube' and it should open up on Youtube. Once there, acknowledge you want to watch it. It should be on the screen. Just tap 'Confirm'.

I get asked to sign in and confirm my age. Are you logged into Google? 

Ahh. Yea-I'm always signed into Google, be it Google mail (Gmail) or Youtube.

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2021 18:49:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 17, 2021 18:35:49 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

You have a lot more confidence in how things work in this country than I do. I pray you are right.

Having watched the Fatal night in Kenosha video again, I am feeling disheartened. The only positive thing was one of the armed white guys saying Huber "died a good death'. Huber tried to do the right thing and he's dead. 

I don’t watch videos that I know will likely upset my nerves, and I’m not sure who Huber was. I don’t keep up with cases like this as they unfold, because I don’t want to be any angrier than I already am.

My thought, having not watched any videos or delving into all the details of the case, is that the defense of him being in the right because it was self defense…… is bullshit.

If people tried to stop him because he was a real and immediate threat, especially after having shot the first person….. if it’s considered that they were attacking him…. THEY WERE HEROES TRYING TO STOP AN ACTIVE SHOOTER. I don’t understand how it makes sense for him to be considered to have been defending himself. If I, unarmed with a lethal weapon, try to stop a random person that’s not obviously a LEO, from shooting more unarmed people, how is that wrong?!

I’m willing to bet all the money I have in any account on this earth, that if my black ass drove my 17yo son to a whole ‘nother state with his illegally obtained firearm, to “protect” whatever during a riot, and he killed some people, we BOTH would be in a world of trouble and we’d both get locked up for a very long  time, like forever.

But that’s me and my son. We are not the same as this *child* and his Mother. 

[Opti]

Nov 17, 2021 19:11:53 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 17, 2021 18:49:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Having watched the Fatal night in Kenosha video again, I am feeling disheartened. The only positive thing was one of the armed white guys saying Huber "died a good death'. Huber tried to do the right thing and he's dead. 

I don’t watch videos that I know will likely upset my nerves, and I’m not sure who Huber was. I don’t keep up with cases like this as they unfold, because I don’t want to be any angrier than I already am.

My thought, having not watched any videos or delving into all the details of the case, is that the defense of him being in the right because it was self defense…… is bullshit.

If people tried to stop him because he was a real and immediate threat, especially after having shot the first person….. if it’s considered that they were attacking him…. THEY WERE HEROES TRYING TO STOP AN ACTIVE SHOOTER. I don’t understand how it makes sense for him to be considered to have been defending himself. If I, unarmed with a lethal weapon, try to stop a random person that’s not obviously a LEO, from shooting more unarmed people, how is that wrong?!

I’m willing to bet all the money I have in any account on this earth, that if my black ass drove my 17yo son to a whole ‘nother state with his illegally obtained firearm, to “protect” whatever during a riot, and he killed some people, we BOTH would be in a world of trouble and we’d both get locked up for a very long  time, like forever.

But that’s me and my son. We are not the same as this *child* and his Mother. 

I should have stayed away from it Pink, because I went down the rabbit hole with the Zimmerman trial and I was very unhappy with the result. Because this guy ran from where he killed Rosenbaum, he was more an active runner. He tripped and fell, and that's where it  went further south. 

But I agree, if he wasn't a fresh faced white guy, things would have been different. I hope future heroes are more cautious. A guy sitting on the road with a rifle is in a very stable shooting position, as sadly Kyle proved. 

[andi9899]

Nov 17, 2021 17:20:01 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 17, 2021 16:49:22 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

This murder was on video. I've watched the trial in its entirety. No way is this kid walking.

So what's your opinion on Rosenbaum and that killing?

My opinion doesn't matter, but since you asked I'll tell you.

I think he needs to go down for it. He shot him 4 times. He said he was attacking him. Ok. The first shot shattered his pelvis. He could have stopped there since the guy wouldn't have been able to get up and continue the attack. The second shot went through his hand. Again, he could have stopped there since he was already disabled. The third shot grazed his head. Again, he could have stopped there. It was the fourth shot that was the kill shot. Had he stopped shooting after shots 1-3, Rosenbaum would still be alive. He'd be injured, but alive. He needs to pay for that life he took.

[andi9899]

Nov 17, 2021 18:08:30 GMT -5 Opti said:

I like this video. Unfortunately being stupid is not against the law. He should have stayed and called the police, not phone a friend and run.
Around 18:55 you can see Rosenbaum on the ground with someone trying to assist him and Kyle phoning a friend.

That's another thing. He lied and claimed he was a medic and was only there to help people. Why did he not render aid to Rosenbaum after shooting him? Instead he made a phone call. To me, this demonstrates a disregard for human life which is necessary to convict him on that charge.