The Cult of Trump

[djAdvocate]

Sept 3, 2022 16:09:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 3, 2022 15:47:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

uh......sure it is.  you know what statutes i am talking about.

please stop playing tag with me bills.  we have been talking about this for MONTHS.

this is not some ass talk on my part.  you know that.

There is a statute that makes it a crime to denigrate the office of the president?

sure, if you consider "denigrate" to be the opposite of "uphold".  5 U.S.C. 7311.
now, please stop toying with me, bills.
you are starting to sound like Trump and his "there is no law called collusion" nonsense.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 3, 2022 16:12:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 3, 2022 15:45:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

a red flag worthy of investigation, impeachment, and removal, don't you think?

Oversight is a good thing.

right.  state secrets are typically raised by an authority OTHER than the president.  it makes sense to involve those persons in declassifying.  

if we say, as Trump does, that there are no state secrets if you are president, then the term really has no meaning.  my opinion, of course.

but if i am wrong, America is doomed, i think.  Trump can sell state secrets to the highest bidder, and nothing can be done about it.

[billisonboard]

Sept 3, 2022 17:43:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 3, 2022 16:09:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

There is a statute that makes it a crime to denigrate the office of the president?

sure, if you consider "denigrate" to be the opposite of "uphold".  5 U.S.C. 7311.
now, please stop toying with me, bills.
you are starting to sound like Trump and his "there is no law called collusion" nonsense.

If that is what you meant, then you should have said that.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 3, 2022 17:51:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 3, 2022 17:43:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sure, if you consider "denigrate" to be the opposite of "uphold".  5 U.S.C. 7311.
now, please stop toying with me, bills.
you are starting to sound like Trump and his "there is no law called collusion" nonsense.

If that is what you meant, then you should have said that.

that is not one thing.  it is many things.  ie, Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 8.  i am sure we could spend all night pulling statutes that he has either skirted or outright violated.  but it is not for me to decide, nor to dictate.  and i am not inclined to speculate what will finally do him in.  perhaps nothing.  but if it is nothing, i pray for America.

[djAdvocate]

i really DO feel like we have been talking about this for months, bills.  perhaps i am wrong.  but i think about it every day.  if i haven't said it, i would be shocked.

candidly, i think his very demeanor degrades the office.  if his staff felt as i do, they could have used the 14th to get him out.

[billisonboard]

Sept 3, 2022 17:47:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 3, 2022 16:12:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oversight is a good thing.

right.  state secrets are typically raised by an authority OTHER than the president.  it makes sense to involve those persons in declassifying.  

if we say, as Trump does, that there are no state secrets if you are president, then the term really has no meaning.  my opinion, of course.

but if i am wrong, America is doomed, i think.  Trump can sell state secrets to the highest bidder, and nothing can be done about it.

Makes perfect sense to involve them. The question is where does the final authority to declassify rest.

The bureaucracy should not withhold information from the person the people elected President.

The POTUS does not have the authority to sell governmental assets, and certainly not for personal profit. And a former president definitely is not so empowered.

The American voters messed up big time and there is a price to be paid.

[billisonboard]

Sept 3, 2022 18:07:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i really DO feel like we have been talking about this for months, bills.  perhaps i am wrong.  but i think about it every day.  if i haven't said it, i would be shocked.

candidly, i think his very demeanor degrades the office.  if his staff felt as i do, they could have used the 14th to get him out.

I don't keep track of what you have and haven't said in the past. In the post I quoted, you used a term and I responded to that term.

[tallguy]

Sept 3, 2022 18:15:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 3, 2022 17:47:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

right.  state secrets are typically raised by an authority OTHER than the president.  it makes sense to involve those persons in declassifying.  

if we say, as Trump does, that there are no state secrets if you are president, then the term really has no meaning.  my opinion, of course.

but if i am wrong, America is doomed, i think.  Trump can sell state secrets to the highest bidder, and nothing can be done about it.

Makes perfect sense to involve them. The question is where does the final authority to declassify rest.

The bureaucracy should not withhold information from the person the people elected President.

The POTUS does not have the authority to sell governmental assets, and certainly not for personal profit. And a former president definitely is not so empowered.

The American voters messed up big time and there is a price to be paid.

We are paying, and will continue to pay for a long time.  We finally got the truck stopped, and the drunk's foot off of the accelerator.  He may be still fighting to stay in the cab, wrenching the wheel whichever way he can and holding a death grip on the keys, but he can't drive anywhere any more.  Now to get him out of the truck and off to jail as we review the trail of destruction in his wake.  With his record, revocation of his license should be mandatory.  After that we do what we can to ensure that no drunk ever gets behind the wheel (of state) again.

[tbop77]

At his first rally since the FBI raided Mar-a-Lago, former President Donald Trump said 'it wasn't just my home that was raided, it was the hopes and dreams of every citizen who I've been fighting for'

At the first rally since the FBI raided his Mar-a-Lago estate, former President Donald Trump said it wasn't just his home that was raided, "it was the hopes and dreams of every citizen who I've been fighting for since the moment I came down the golden escalator in 2015, wanting to represent the people."

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/at-his-first-rally-since-the-fbi-raided-mar-a-lago-former-president-donald-trump-said-it-wasn-t-just-my-home-that-was-raided-it-was-the-hopes-and-dreams-of-every-citizen-who-i-ve-been-fighting-for/ar-AA11reyL?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5746a9263bb84db2a374108d681ecce5

The cult leader has spoke!  

[Opti]

Yeah, the cult leader programs them to think it's about them instead of the reality that it's about the crimes he commits.     Really sad it works on these sheeple.

[tbop77]

Trump's August 30 posting spree on Truth Social indicates a lurch toward the darkest corners of conspiracy theory, almost two years after he lost the presidency to Joe Biden.



Trump interacted with a meme that was shared in reply to a post highlighting the writings of "Q," the anonymous persona whose posts on fringe forums gave rise to QAnon and its baseless claims about a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles including Hillary Clinton.



"Trump has certainly amplified Q content before. He had retweeted Q believers or memes over 300 times on Twitter," Rothschild said. "But he had never shared something directly connected to a Q drop before."



The meme Trump shared referenced "the storm," a mass unsealing of indictments promised in QAnon lore that would culminate in his return to the White House.



He also re-posted images that put the words "your enemy is not in Russia" over the faces of top Democrats, including Biden.



It was a sign of what Truth Social -- and Trump's potential 2024 campaign -- could look like as the November 8 midterms approach.


www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-s-qanon-posts-highlight-truth-social-s-extremist-presence/ar-AA11r8HG?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5746a9263bb84db2a374108d681ecce5

And the cult followers are nuts....I find it alarming that anyone could support this.  

[Opti]

I wonder if your enemy is in Florida adverts would work. It would need to be a PAC or something similar using his stuff with Fake News over it followed by cuts of him speaking, the storming of the Capitol and the pic of the docs on the floor. 

[scgal]

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Sept 3, 2022 7:03:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

I don't see anything where he incited the riots. He never told them to break into the capitol. The impeachment should never have happened just another scared democrat stunt. I'm not going to comment about anything with Hillary.

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

[djAdvocate]

Sept 3, 2022 18:15:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 3, 2022 17:47:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

right.  state secrets are typically raised by an authority OTHER than the president.  it makes sense to involve those persons in declassifying.  

if we say, as Trump does, that there are no state secrets if you are president, then the term really has no meaning.  my opinion, of course.

but if i am wrong, America is doomed, i think.  Trump can sell state secrets to the highest bidder, and nothing can be done about it.

Makes perfect sense to involve them. The question is where does the final authority to declassify rest.

The bureaucracy should not withhold information from the person the people elected President.

withhold?  nowhere in this discussion have i stated, nor even implied, that information should be WITHHELD from a president.

i think we are having a misunderstanding, bills.  when i say "declassified" i mean something akin to a FOIA request, where the documents move from classified to public.  i never meant that the president should NOT have access to sensitive material.  i doubt anyone else here did, either.

the president ALONE should not be able to declassify SCIF materials, assuming that he did not classify them in the first place.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 4, 2022 7:10:55 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

At his first rally since the FBI raided Mar-a-Lago, former President Donald Trump said 'it wasn't just my home that was raided, it was the hopes and dreams of every citizen who I've been fighting for'

!  

that might be true, actually.  and those citizens scare the shit out of me.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

what path, if you don't mind me asking?

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

“All this crap the dems did to push him out of office and keep him from Running again”??

What “crap”??

Holding an election? How is that “crap”? That is what our country is founded on. Elections… will of the people. They happen every 4 years. The election that was held was fair and honest. No evidence was found of cheating or manipulation. Just because trump is a sore loser doesn’t make it true that there was any fraud. Even his people say so (Barr, Krebs).

Are you speaking about the j6 committee? You don’t think it is te govt’s responsibility to find out what happened there? There was a riot that KILLED people. And multiple leaders, including our VP and house speaker were threatened to be killed. That’s not important enough to investigate?

The first impeachment involved trying to withhold aid to another country until they spy on your political competition (who was a private US citizen at that point). You don’t see a problem with that? You think we should be using our foreign aid as a bargaining chip for our president’s personal grudges? What if it wasn’t him but some other official (secretary of state or military general) and they wanted info on another American they had a petty grudge with. That’s ok?

You didn’t think the second impeachment because why??? You think it’s ok for a president to lie to the people, get them riled up and have them threaten to kill your colleagues?

I guess we have a very different opinion of what “low behavior” is…

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

The files are marked confidential. Unless they were declassified, Trump, now a private citizen has no legal right to possess them in his private home.

He signed a law making such behavior a felony, so he, more than anyone else, should know better

He claimed s he “declassified”. Where is the proof? There is a process to follow, where is the paper trail? Nobody who is asked remembers him doing so.

His lawyer don’t seem to want to claim they were declassified when they go to court. Wonder why that is?

Some of the folders are empty. Does that not concern you?

Trump had the crowd chanting “LOCK HER Up”. Seems to me the same standard should apply to him.

You are bending over backwards to try to minimize this. Do you have the same standards when other people are accused of crimes? Or is it only conservatives?

[tbop77]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

New ad throws Republicans' own words about the Jan. 6 attack back in their faces

www.alternet.org/2022/01/new-ad-throws-republicans-own-words-about-the-jan-6-back-in-their-faces/

They all knew!  That is why the impeachment was such a farce.  It showed how scared repubs are and how low they will go.

What I'm afraid of is all the crap repubs have pulled to enable him to continue destroying this country.  How low will they stoop?  You are misinformed, it's not the hatred of Trump, it is the hatred of what he is doing to the country.  

[Opti]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

Trump is very good at programming the people who are susceptible to his kind of persuasion. He is practiced enough not to say go storm the Capitol directly. That's why he laced his speech with you need to be strong to take back the country, marching to the Capitol, and lying that a constitutional lawyer said Pence could reject electors and turn the election back to them.

You don't want to acknowledge Trump subversion of the democracy of the US. So, you choose not to and pretend it's all about the Dems when the Dems are constantly reacting to transgressions of Trump. The people who stormed the Capitol believe Trump told them to do so. Some of this is even in court records from trials. It's weird you cannot admit that 1+ 1 + 1 = 3.

The Repubs have been at a low level since Trump became the chosen candidate. 

[happyhoix]

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:27:09 GMT -5 dondub said:

Proud Boys….stand back and stand by.

Come to Washington on Jan. 6th, it will be a wild time.

Let’s go to the Capitol (stop the steal)

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

So let me ask you this. 

Remember when Gore and Bush had such a close election? Remember the hanging chads? Remember how Gore decided to concede to Bush, even against the advice of many dems (and of myself) that he should continue to litigate the outcome of that election? 

Gore did that because he didn’t want to continue to tear the country apart. He wanted an end to the turmoil, for the good of the nation. For the good of the nation, right? And did Gore sulk back to Tennessee, repeatedly holding rallies talking about how he’d been cheated and how the voting was corrupt? 

Now think about how Trump behaved after the election - an election where there was a substantial number of votes for Biden. Where there was no question Biden got more votes, especially after 60 different court cases Trump pushed failed to show enough voter fraud to have changed the outcome of the election. But instead of conceding with grace and preparing to run again in 2024, Trump refuses to concede. He persists in his Big Lie that he was cheated. He foments Americans to fight for him, very literally. At his rally on J6, he called on his minions at the rally to walk to the Capital and ‘fight like hell’ for him. 

Comparing those two different losers of presidential elections, can you understand why so many people are angry with Trump? One president placed the country first, the other placed himself first. One president left a sad but, within a short period of time, a united country behind. The other continues to foment and we’re closer now then we’ve ever been to a second civil war because of him. That’s why people dislike him and why so many don’t want him to be president again in 2024. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 4, 2022 8:09:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 3, 2022 18:15:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Makes perfect sense to involve them. The question is where does the final authority to declassify rest.

The bureaucracy should not withhold information from the person the people elected President.

withhold?  nowhere in this discussion have i stated, nor even implied, that information should be WITHHELD from a president.

i think we are having a misunderstanding, bills.  when i say "declassified" i mean something akin to a FOIA request, where the documents move from classified to public.  i never meant that the president should NOT have access to sensitive material.  i doubt anyone else here did, either.

the president ALONE should not be able to declassify SCIF materials, assuming that he did not classify them in the first place.

Noted. Withhold was the wrong word to use. In rereading it, not sure why I typed that sentence.

I don't think the president ever classifies things "in the first place". That is certainly not the way I see it working. And again we simply disagree on the president having our not having the final say.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 4, 2022 9:20:38 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 4, 2022 8:09:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

withhold?  nowhere in this discussion have i stated, nor even implied, that information should be WITHHELD from a president.

i think we are having a misunderstanding, bills.  when i say "declassified" i mean something akin to a FOIA request, where the documents move from classified to public.  i never meant that the president should NOT have access to sensitive material.  i doubt anyone else here did, either.

the president ALONE should not be able to declassify SCIF materials, assuming that he did not classify them in the first place.

Noted. Withhold was the wrong word to use. In rereading it, not sure why I typed that sentence.

I don't think the president ever classifies things "in the first place". That is certainly not the way I see it working. And again we simply disagree on the president having our not having the final say.

according to EO 9-31418, classification may be done by the following:


(1) the President and the Vice President;

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and

(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant

to paragraph (c) of this section.

(b) Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are

also authorized to classify information at a lower level.

(c) Delegation of original classification authority.

it also says THIS:

(d) All original classification authorities must receive training in proper

classification (including the avoidance of over-classification) and declassification as provided in this order and its implementing directives at least

once a calendar year. Such training must include instruction on the proper

safeguarding of classified information and on the sanctions in section 5.5

of this order that may be brought against an individual who fails to classify

information properly or protect classified information from unauthorized

disclosure. Original classification authorities who do not receive such mandatory training at least once within a calendar year shall have their classification

authority suspended by the agency head or the senior agency official designated under section 5.4(d) of this order until such training has taken

place. A waiver may be granted by the agency head, the deputy agency

head, or the senior agency official if an individual is unable to receive

such training due to unavoidable circumstances. Whenever a waiver is granted, the individual shall receive such training as soon as practicable.

how many here think he had any classification training?  then again, (and i am speculating here) i doubt Trump EVER classified ANY documents.  he just doesn't seem like the type.

my understanding is that DHS secretary is one such authority.  the head of the DOD is another.  the head of the AEC is another.  part THREE of this order specifies who may DECLASSIFY information:

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified

as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this

order.

(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official

is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority;

(2) the originator’s current successor in function, if that individual has

original classification authority;

(3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor

in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority;

or (4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency

head or the senior agency official of the originating agency.


it would appear from this section that the president is not actually authorized to declassify unless he classified in the first place.  (NOTE: Trump has NOT asserted that this is the case) it is YOUR contention that Trump classified the documents in question.  i seriously doubt that.  do you have any proof to back it up?  or are you just conjecture-ing?


www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2010-01-05/pdf/E9-31418.pdf

[scgal]

Sept 4, 2022 9:10:10 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

So let me ask you this. 

Remember when Gore and Bush had such a close election? Remember the hanging chads? Remember how Gore decided to concede to Bush, even against the advice of many dems (and of myself) that he should continue to litigate the outcome of that election? 

Gore did that because he didn’t want to continue to tear the country apart. He wanted an end to the turmoil, for the good of the nation. For the good of the nation, right? And did Gore sulk back to Tennessee, repeatedly holding rallies talking about how he’d been cheated and how the voting was corrupt? 

Now think about how Trump behaved after the election - an election where there was a substantial number of votes for Biden. Where there was no question Biden got more votes, especially after 60 different court cases Trump pushed failed to show enough voter fraud to have changed the outcome of the election. But instead of conceding with grace and preparing to run again in 2024, Trump refuses to concede. He persists in his Big Lie that he was cheated. He foments Americans to fight for him, very literally. At his rally on J6, he called on his minions at the rally to walk to the Capital and ‘fight like hell’ for him. 

Comparing those two different losers of presidential elections, can you understand why so many people are angry with Trump? One president placed the country first, the other placed himself first. One president left a sad but, within a short period of time, a united country behind. The other continues to foment and we’re closer now then we’ve ever been to a second civil war because of him. That’s why people dislike him and why so many don’t want him to be president again in 2024. 

Of course I see it and I don't condone his actions. I'm also intelligent enough to not let let emotions, and circumstantial findings get me to the point of seeing something that is not there and not based on fact. 

[scgal]

Sept 4, 2022 8:27:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sept 4, 2022 7:55:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

That is very subjective. Are they the best words to use for his collaboration NO but anthing short of him saying go storm the capitol will not cut it. We need to stop 1+1=5 and stop guessing what the intent is. He is innocent of the riot. That is why the 2nd impeachment was such a farce and is showing how scared the dems are and how low they will go. 

Now like I said if he broke any laws with all this so called classified material it is on him do what they have to do or not do. That is all on him. What I'm afraid of is that with all this crap the dems have pulled to push him out of office and keep him from running again will hurt this country if the Repubs stoop to their low level. You guys think that Trump made us the laughing stock of the world I think its all the dems actions. Most here are so blinded by their hate of Trump cannot see the negative effects of what will happen. I agree with DJ but not on the same terms, this country is truly screwed (to me if we keep going down this path).

The files are marked confidential. Unless they were declassified, Trump, now a private citizen has no legal right to possess them in his private home.

He signed a law making such behavior a felony, so he, more than anyone else, should know better

He claimed s he “declassified”. Where is the proof? There is a process to follow, where is the paper trail? Nobody who is asked remembers him doing so.

His lawyer don’t seem to want to claim they were declassified when they go to court. Wonder why that is?

Some of the folders are empty. Does that not concern you?

Trump had the crowd chanting “LOCK HER Up”. Seems to me the same standard should apply to him.

You are bending over backwards to try to minimize this. Do you have the same standards when other people are accused of crimes? Or is it only conservatives?

Those empty folders mean nothing he has already seen them he has seen thousands of classified documents in his four years. 

[djAdvocate]

scgal- do you mind answering post 765, above?

[Opti]

Sept 4, 2022 10:22:41 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 4, 2022 8:27:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The files are marked confidential. Unless they were declassified, Trump, now a private citizen has no legal right to possess them in his private home.

He signed a law making such behavior a felony, so he, more than anyone else, should know better

He claimed s he “declassified”. Where is the proof? There is a process to follow, where is the paper trail? Nobody who is asked remembers him doing so.

His lawyer don’t seem to want to claim they were declassified when they go to court. Wonder why that is?

Some of the folders are empty. Does that not concern you?

Trump had the crowd chanting “LOCK HER Up”. Seems to me the same standard should apply to him.

You are bending over backwards to try to minimize this. Do you have the same standards when other people are accused of crimes? Or is it only conservatives?

Those empty folders mean nothing he has already seen them he has seen thousands of classified documents in his four years. 

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-fbi-found-dozens-of-empty-classified-folders-at-trumps-mar-a-lago-what-was-in-them/ar-AA11qcsA

One was 48 empty folders with classified banners that FBI agents recovered during the Aug. 8 search of Trump's Palm Beach, Florida, estate and members-only club. The other was 42 folders marked "return to staff secretary/military aide."

Andrew Weissmann, another former federal prosecutor, tweeted, "It’s the empty classified folders that are of most concern. Where are the contents?"

The empty folders mean something, what we don't know yet. Did he sell them or use them for bribes for people who hadn't seen them yet?

[happyhoix]

Sept 4, 2022 10:21:14 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 4, 2022 9:10:10 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

So let me ask you this. 

Remember when Gore and Bush had such a close election? Remember the hanging chads? Remember how Gore decided to concede to Bush, even against the advice of many dems (and of myself) that he should continue to litigate the outcome of that election? 

Gore did that because he didn’t want to continue to tear the country apart. He wanted an end to the turmoil, for the good of the nation. For the good of the nation, right? And did Gore sulk back to Tennessee, repeatedly holding rallies talking about how he’d been cheated and how the voting was corrupt? 

Now think about how Trump behaved after the election - an election where there was a substantial number of votes for Biden. Where there was no question Biden got more votes, especially after 60 different court cases Trump pushed failed to show enough voter fraud to have changed the outcome of the election. But instead of conceding with grace and preparing to run again in 2024, Trump refuses to concede. He persists in his Big Lie that he was cheated. He foments Americans to fight for him, very literally. At his rally on J6, he called on his minions at the rally to walk to the Capital and ‘fight like hell’ for him. 

Comparing those two different losers of presidential elections, can you understand why so many people are angry with Trump? One president placed the country first, the other placed himself first. One president left a sad but, within a short period of time, a united country behind. The other continues to foment and we’re closer now then we’ve ever been to a second civil war because of him. That’s why people dislike him and why so many don’t want him to be president again in 2024. 

Of course I see it and I don't condone his actions. I'm also intelligent enough to not let let emotions, and circumstantial findings get me to the point of seeing something that is not there and not based on fact. 

You aren’t paying enough attention to what’s been happening. 

Trump instructed his minions on J6 to march on the Capital and ‘fight like hell’ in order to delay certifying the vote so he could have a little extra time to push the GOPers in the various states to throw out their actual votes and come up with new GOP electors to declare their state for Trump. He succeeded in delaying the vote. This is fact. This actually happened. 

What Trump didn’t count on is that he pissed off McConnell enough McConnell made it his mission to clear out the Capital and get all the congressmen back into chambers to finish certifying the vote. This is also fact. 

Would you argue neither of these things happened? 

[billisonboard]

Sept 4, 2022 10:12:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 4, 2022 9:20:38 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Noted. Withhold was the wrong word to use. In rereading it, not sure why I typed that sentence.

I don't think the president ever classifies things "in the first place". That is certainly not the way I see it working. And again we simply disagree on the president having our not having the final say.

according to EO 9-31418, classification may be done by the following:


(1) the President and the Vice President;

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and

(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant

to paragraph (c) of this section.

(b) Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are

also authorized to classify information at a lower level.

(c) Delegation of original classification authority.

it also says THIS:

(d) All original classification authorities must receive training in proper

classification (including the avoidance of over-classification) and declassification as provided in this order and its implementing directives at least

once a calendar year. Such training must include instruction on the proper

safeguarding of classified information and on the sanctions in section 5.5

of this order that may be brought against an individual who fails to classify

information properly or protect classified information from unauthorized

disclosure. Original classification authorities who do not receive such mandatory training at least once within a calendar year shall have their classification

authority suspended by the agency head or the senior agency official designated under section 5.4(d) of this order until such training has taken

place. A waiver may be granted by the agency head, the deputy agency

head, or the senior agency official if an individual is unable to receive

such training due to unavoidable circumstances. Whenever a waiver is granted, the individual shall receive such training as soon as practicable.

how many here think he had any classification training?  then again, (and i am speculating here) i doubt Trump EVER classified ANY documents.  he just doesn't seem like the type.

my understanding is that DHS secretary is one such authority.  the head of the DOD is another.  the head of the AEC is another.  part THREE of this order specifies who may DECLASSIFY information:

Sec. 3.1. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified

as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this

order.

(b) Information shall be declassified or downgraded by:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official

is still serving in the same position and has original classification authority;

(2) the originator’s current successor in function, if that individual has

original classification authority;

(3) a supervisory official of either the originator or his or her successor

in function, if the supervisory official has original classification authority;

or (4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency

head or the senior agency official of the originating agency.


it would appear from this section that the president is not actually authorized to declassify unless he classified in the first place.  (NOTE: Trump has NOT asserted that this is the case) it is YOUR contention that Trump classified the documents in question.  i seriously doubt that.  do you have any proof to back it up?  or are you just conjecture-ing?


www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2010-01-05/pdf/E9-31418.pdf

Great info. Thanks for providing it.

There is little in this executive order signed by the president that gives direction to the president.

I need to just give up on my attempt to discuss this general issue. I just can't move it past Trump 24/7.

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 4, 2022 10:22:41 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 4, 2022 8:27:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The files are marked confidential. Unless they were declassified, Trump, now a private citizen has no legal right to possess them in his private home.

He signed a law making such behavior a felony, so he, more than anyone else, should know better

He claimed s he “declassified”. Where is the proof? There is a process to follow, where is the paper trail? Nobody who is asked remembers him doing so.

His lawyer don’t seem to want to claim they were declassified when they go to court. Wonder why that is?

Some of the folders are empty. Does that not concern you?

Trump had the crowd chanting “LOCK HER Up”. Seems to me the same standard should apply to him.

You are bending over backwards to try to minimize this. Do you have the same standards when other people are accused of crimes? Or is it only conservatives?

Those empty folders mean nothing he has already seen them he has seen thousands of classified documents in his four years. 

So if a doctor lost your medical chart it would be no big redo because he had already seen it? That’s not what the law says