MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 12:15:20 GMT -5
… when all adults involved with the child are intelligent, college educated, and encourage learning outside the classroom?
Sorry I’ve been MIA but if there is any topic I know you guys can help me work through, it’s this one.
Without getting into too much detail, the idea of moving to a lower COL town in my state has come up. My major concerns are the schools and safety. DS is currently in a great district, but I will never be able to buy a home there. In looking at more affordable areas, I’m seeing the public schools aren’t as good. I know that after K-12 none of this will matter… but what are your thoughts?
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Sept 13, 2021 13:05:50 GMT -5
IIRC he's pretty young. I would say good schools are incredibly important. Especially at a young age when they're easier to mold into good study habits. I live in the hood but paid for my kids to go to private school. I was able to get a break on tuition because of my income at the time. Perhaps you could qualify for some type of reduction in tuition for a private school if you chose to go that route.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 13, 2021 13:19:23 GMT -5
There are several different ways that school performance is measured. They are not equally relevant to your individual situation. I've lived in my area my entire life, and I know the reputations of the various schools. The various rankings don't give a great picture of what I know and hear from other parents.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 13, 2021 13:33:39 GMT -5
My big worry from "bad schools" was if there would be peer influence that did not support my values.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 14:17:35 GMT -5
IIRC he's pretty young. I would say good schools are incredibly important. Especially at a young age when they're easier to mold into good study habits. I live in the hood but paid for my kids to go to private school. I was able to get a break on tuition because of my income at the time. Perhaps you could qualify for some type of reduction in tuition for a private school if you chose to go that route. Yeah I’m considering private or charter school options too - thanks.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 14:18:15 GMT -5
There are several different ways that school performance is measured. They are not equally relevant to your individual situation. I've lived in my area my entire life, and I know the reputations of the various schools. The various rankings don't give a great picture of what I know and hear from other parents. That’s a good point, and why it’s so hard to really make a good decision on this.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 14:18:41 GMT -5
My big worry from "bad schools" was if there would be peer influence that did not support my values. Same!!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 15:08:05 GMT -5
Really, really depends on the kid. I think I would have done OK in a mediocre school as long as I wasn't afraid for my safety. I was a serious student and a pretty straight arrow. DS, OTOH, was in a supposedly excellent school system and I had to take him out and send him to a private military boarding school. (Yes, thank heaven, it worked.) If you think that the school is mediocre, not dangerous or seriously bad, my main concern would be that he might not get all the preparation he needs if he wants to go into something such as Math or Engineering, where he better start college with a year of Calculus or he'll already be behind. He may also be bored if they teach to the lowest level and there are no advanced classes.
Still, there's far more enrichment available than there used to be- on-line curses, many of them free, in addition to private tutoring. The latter might be more affordable if you have more manageable housing costs.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 13, 2021 15:47:40 GMT -5
Too often good schools are code for wealthy parents.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Sept 13, 2021 16:20:44 GMT -5
I think good parents are much more important than good schools.
I grew up in, and we still live in a rural "mediocre" district, but if you look at the kids whose parents cared, they all have advanced degrees and are doing just fine for themselves.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Sept 13, 2021 17:36:52 GMT -5
I am going to say important. Programs that they have (I am talking about reading programs and materials, math programs and materials, that they can actually do science experiments vs just reading about them that kind of stuff. Not after school clubs or activities, not saying those aren't important but not what I am talking about) class size, teacher moral and experience. Yes you can supplement at home after school and balance a lot, but you need to decided if both of you are going to have the energy and mental focus to supplement at home after a whole day of work/school.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 13, 2021 17:41:54 GMT -5
I do not have kids. It seems to me that "good school" is somewhat subjective. If the school provides what your kid needs/is interested in academically (or other) then it's a "good school" For some "good school" means it's got a prestigious name and makes the parents feel that their average kid is getting an above average education. I would think about what your kid(s) need - do they need smaller class size? does the school (or district) offer educational paths your kid is interested in? Will your kid be able to find a group of kids that can apply the "good kind" of peer pressure so your kid is more likely to apply themselves at school (because that's what their friends do) while also being involved with their friends and doing some kid stuff? I think friends can make a big difference in a kids school experience. Friends don't all need to be A+ students and little geniuses. They need to have some of the same values as your family. My friends (and family) who were involved with their kids (and school) tended to make sure the school had what the kid needed or could take the most advantage of (and wanted to do so.). Even if the school wasn't a highly rated "good school" the program or track their kid was on was usually pretty gosh darn good and opened a lot of learning and skills for the kid. (schools have tracks for students - even the "bad schools" so a "bad school" might have the resources to support the kids that can handle more difficult course material (so they jump into higher level HS courses or to give the kids a wider experience of different areas of a field of study or who excel in a particular subject or sport or art. ) I strongly think "good study habits" form at home maybe even before the kid gets to school (as in having some routines at home and some responsibilities and some parental expectations at home). But then, I was primed to do "homework" immediately when I got home from school- because that is what my older siblings did (and even through I wasn't in school - I got to do "homework" too (color or sit quietly doing something a 4 year old could do for 10 or so minutes so then I could go "out and play"). Cause I wanted to be like my older sibs even though it took them longer to finish their homework. )
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Sept 13, 2021 18:00:17 GMT -5
Too often good schools are code for wealthy parents. And white…
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 18:01:04 GMT -5
Too often good schools are code for wealthy parents. Yeah the current district is predominantly upper-middle to upper class, and a nice chunk of them are 1-income households. There is a palpable “mom clique”/Stepford Wives-esque feel to the school functions I’ve been able to attend. DS can manage to fit in with most kids but I know I feel massively uncomfortable around the adults.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 13, 2021 18:07:03 GMT -5
Does it matter what public HS system the grade schools feed into? I live in a dense urban area - and the grade schools feed into different HS districts. If you live on one side of the "border line" street you go to A High school if you live on the other B High school.
It wasn't such a big thing for the public schools... but it was for the private schools - since a kid from the A High School side of the line could go to a private GS in the B High School side - but the kid would have to go to the B high school.
I had this problem as a little kid. I went to a Private Grade School in a different suburb. I was the only kid who didn't live in the suburb. Back then, I couldn't use that suburb's public library (I didn't get to go to the Book Mobile when it came to the school because I didn't have a library card.) I couldn't use the suburbs after school or summer programs so I never saw my classmates over the summer and there were things during the school year I couldn't do with them.
I actually got to choose which of the 2 HS I wanted to attend... which was something new (the HS districts shared the kids in the two suburbs depending on which one you lived closer to. ) I opted to go to the one in the other suburb cause that was where my siblings went (and my parents were familiar with) and I thought I might see some of the kids from grade school there.
I'm guessing with newer suburbs or small communities this kind of a thing happens infrequently.
But, if you are researching schools - it's probably a good idea to find out how it works rather than assume the "obvious" thing is what happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 18:07:37 GMT -5
I think good parents are much more important than good schools. I grew up in, and we still live in a rural "mediocre" district, but if you look at the kids whose parents cared, they all have advanced degrees and are doing just fine for themselves. I totally agree with this. My siblings and I went to parochial schools and DS, as I mentioned, went to a private military boarding school for HS. They all ran on lean budgets- paid teachers less than the public school system, no lavish budgets for the arts or fancy electronics. BUT- the kids were there because their parents made it a financial priority and they supported whatever rules and discipline were in place. At DS' school, one punishment for infraction of the rules was having to rake leaves on the school grounds. manual labor. Oh, the HUMILIATION! DS learned to run a floor-polisher. He was proud of that. DS and DDIL moved to a so-so school district because they were home-schooling and they could get more house for the money. I asked him what the concern was about the schools and he said there are just a lot of kids from single-parent families or who have other difficulties at home. Of course they need support but if their issues keep your kid from getting a decent education, it becomes your problem. (Reminder: I WAS a single mother during most of DS' schooling. I know most of them are doing their best.) You need to look at what makes the district perceived to be lower quality than the higher-cost areas and decide if it's something you can live with or if it's a dealbreaker.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 18:09:54 GMT -5
Too often good schools are code for wealthy parents. And white… That part.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 18:15:10 GMT -5
Does it matter what public HS system the grade schools feed into? I live in a dense urban area - and the grade schools feed into different HS districts. If you live on one side of the "border line" street you go to A High school if you live on the other B High school. It wasn't such a big thing for the public schools... but it was for the private schools - since a kid from the A High School side of the line could go to a private GS in the B High School side - but the kid would have to go to the A high school (while all their classmates went to B High School) I had this problem as a little kid. I went to a Private Grade School in a different suburb. I was the only kid who didn't live in the suburb. Back then, I couldn't use that suburb's public library (I didn't get to go to the Book Mobile when it came to the school because I didn't have a library card.) I couldn't use the suburbs after school or summer programs so I never saw my classmates over the summer and there were things during the school year I couldn't do with them. I actually got to choose which of the 2 HS I wanted to attend... which was something new (the HS districts shared the kids in the two suburbs depending on which one you lived closer to. ) I opted to go to the one in the other suburb (rather than the one I was suppose to go to under the new "rules" ) cause that was where my siblings went (and my parents were familiar with) and I thought I might see some of the kids from grade school there. I'm guessing with newer suburbs or small communities this kind of a thing happens infrequently. But, if you are researching schools - it's probably a good idea to find out how it works rather than assume the "obvious" thing is what happens. Yes the high school matters to me. A LOT. He’s in 5th grade now (omg can you believe it?!?) so I have a little time before I need to worry about that.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 13, 2021 18:59:59 GMT -5
I have a couple friends who went to "bad" schools. And I have a friend whose son is now in the "bad" school. They all did very well. Around here, schools do what they can to keep (and nuture) anyone who will bring their test scores up. We have charters and open enrollment, so losing students happen. Being the good, smart kid has advantages. Teachers may be assigned to make sure the kid does well (and keep them out of trouble). Getting all As is a little easier. Getting a high class ranking is easier.
Having just gone through our in state college application process - they take unweighted GPA, so my kid's B in the AP class worked against him. And they look at GPA and class rating to discount tuition. If my son had gone to the "bad" school, gotten more As and graduated at the top of his class, it would have saved us $20,000. How much worse is the education? Unknown.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 19:13:36 GMT -5
I’m fairly certain I went to a mediocre school for K-12. But I knew I wanted better for myself, so I got good grades and got the heck out of dodge for college. I think a lot has to do with the kid, the parents, and the opportunities the school offers.
I found this absolutely adorable Quaker private school, and from what I see so far I think he would excel in that environment. Small class sizes, a Montessori type style, and an emphasis on community and being a good person… I feel like I dreamed up this place for him. Not cheap, but they offer financial aid. And seeing as I make half the money the average family receiving financial aid makes, there may be an opportunity there.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Sept 13, 2021 19:31:48 GMT -5
I think this gets into a circular argument. Good schools are good because parents emphasize education, reinforce it to the kids, get better teachers who demand excellence so the involved parents are happy.
In my opinion, it is very dependent on the student and the parent. Good schools are more important to parents with less education and students who could go either way. High achievers/affluent families will be in a good way in mediocre schools because of talent/finances. Families on the other end need good schools but rarely get them. Those in the middle benefit the most in my opinion.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 13, 2021 19:57:06 GMT -5
Too often good schools are code for wealthy parents. Yeah the current district is predominantly upper-middle to upper class, and a nice chunk of them are 1-income households. There is a palpable “mom clique”/Stepford Wives-esque feel to the school functions I’ve been able to attend. DS can manage to fit in with most kids but I know I feel massively uncomfortable around the adults. Yes, but it does wear on the kids. I know by 8th grade DS was tired of being with the upper middle class/wealthy kids.
DD1 is there, too.
The kids are also with the same people for 9-10 years. So there's that as well.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 13, 2021 19:59:53 GMT -5
Outside of test scores, what info can you get to rate schools? How much does moving limit future options? (Harder to move back, change schools if it doesn't work etc.)
When I was trying to pick a district test scores were the most obvious rating system. Our home elementary at the time had 97% of kids on free and reduced lunch and I was worried about my kids growing up as a "have" with such a serious gap. (We were poor back then, but apparently a different level of poor than 97% of our neighbors).
The district we moved to had better test scores, but wasn't all white/upper middle class, at least in elementary. The elementary school still had 80% of kids on free lunch, but plenty of the 20% lived in million dollar homes so we are still solidly middle. It also supports kids speaking over a dozen different home languages. Middle school demographic is a much whiter/more affluent group.
There are so many options now I get lost in indecision. But as long as youre not limiting future options, I don't see an issue with a move. If it doesn't work out, you can course correct.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 13, 2021 20:18:20 GMT -5
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the best school vs. an average school. Which school has the most opportunity to explore? Which school will fit your child, no matter how they might grow/change/get to know themselves better?
DH and I have done nothing "wrong," and yet we've ended up with at least one kid that's not going to a 4 year college. Rather he's going to a tech school to be a mechanic. We didn't really "see" this was his path until 10th grade.
We are very fortunate that the high school has a full auto shop, complete with lifts. The other day, he rode in a car on a lift to learn how to test brake fluid. We are fortunate that he goes to a high school where there is a place for him.
They also have pretty good academics. He's taken AP history classes most every year. (I know. Don't ask). What's interesting is that one would assume since DS is on the tech school (or working full time out of HS) path, (and has eh grades) that he'd be hanging out with the trouble makers, however you define that. Yet, he's the first to say "I'm not stupid enough to tell the teacher to F*ck off." "I'm not stupid enough to do drugs at school." All of his friends are college bound. It's a pretty interesting dynamic to watch.
(And while I'm on that. In my parts, the rich folks just have the better drugs and better alcohol. Because more money. The private high school in town takes the kids that fail out of public schools, because parents can donate money to buy their kids a spot in the school). One of my old clients has a dad who splits his time between here and DC, because he's has a pretty big political career out there. She went to our state flagship, in the town we live in, because it's good enough. She knows she's going to need to go to grad school. So getting into her best, perfect dream school for undergrad isn't even a thing. because she knew there would be grad school bills to foot in the future. DD1 is looking down paths that will have her going to grad school. We'll counsel her to do the same. Pick a pretty good college, in case your interests change...but will still get you to grad school if you choose.
ETA: The things I would look at are- Teacher/Principal Turnover Curriculum
What does discipline look like What kind of opportunities are there with student orgs, club sports, etc.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 13, 2021 20:29:45 GMT -5
I was talking to my cousin Saturday. She's a Hs teacher at a district with a lessee reputation. We were talking about school last year, and we both thought it was great because the class sizes were smaller. My oldest went from testing end of 4th grade math to beyond 8th grade level last year. She described the same sort of thing with teaching her students. So, that's leading me to think class size is more important than I had realized before that conversation.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 13, 2021 20:32:39 GMT -5
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the best school vs. an average school. Which school has the most opportunity to explore? Which school will fit your child, no matter how they might grow/change/get to know themselves better?
DH and I have done nothing "wrong," and yet we've ended up with at least one kid that's not going to a 4 year college. Rather he's going to a tech school to be a mechanic. We didn't really "see" this was his path until 10th grade.
We are very fortunate that the high school has a full auto shop, complete with lifts. The other day, he rode in a car on a lift to learn how to test brake fluid. We are fortunate that he goes to a high school where there is a place for him.
They also have pretty good academics. He's taken AP history classes most every year. (I know. Don't ask). What's interesting is that one would assume since DS is on the tech school (or working full time out of HS) path, (and has eh grades) that he'd be hanging out with the trouble makers, however you define that. Yet, he's the first to say "I'm not stupid enough to tell the teacher to F*ck off." "I'm not stupid enough to do drugs at school." All of his friends are college bound. It's a pretty interesting dynamic to watch.
(And while I'm on that. In my parts, the rich folks just have the better drugs and better alcohol. Because more money. The private high school in town takes the kids that fail out of public schools, because parents can donate money to buy their kids a spot in the school). One of my old clients has a dad who splits his time between here and DC, because he's has a pretty big political career out there. She went to our state flagship, in the town we live in, because it's good enough. She knows she's going to need to go to grad school. So getting into her best, perfect dream school for undergrad isn't even a thing. because she knew there would be grad school bills to foot in the future. DD1 is looking down paths that will have her going to grad school. We'll counsel her to do the same. Pick a pretty good college, in case your interests change...but will still get you to grad school if you choose.
ETA: The things I would look at are- Teacher/Principal Turnover Curriculum
What does discipline look like What kind of opportunities are there with student orgs, club sports, etc. I think it’s awesome that your DS is getting the chance to have hands-on mechanical experience and that you and the school support that. That’s ultimately what I want for my DS - for his school to educate him and help guide him to realize what he wants to do in his professional life. A 4-year college isn’t for everyone and there’s nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I’d be just as proud of my son if he became an auto mechanic or plumber or electrician as if he became an engineer or astronaut. I’d like a school with faculty that see him for who he is and what he can contribute to the world instead of just another kid. His current district has a lot of kids and I do worry about him getting lost in the shuffle.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 13, 2021 20:59:54 GMT -5
Another thing I thought of on the way home. For the upper middle class and or wealthy families, they are doing things like spending thousands on tutors, college coaches, coaches to help with exuctive functions, exam prep, etc. It could be upward of 15K...I think it's 5K a year...times at least three years. These are also the same families that have the expensive house, the boat, etc.
DS has a friend whose parents make the kid go to summer school if the kid gets a B or lower in a class. This is the price of making sure your kid can compete. It ain't cheap.
I don't know how it is at the private HS anymore, but there was considerable pressure to have a big birthday bash for 16...not quite like a quincera (I butchered the spelling, so sorry). but close.
ETA: Our school district has 27000 kids. There's 2K kids at DS's high school, 500 in his grade. It is amazing how small his world is. His freshman year, he had a class with a kid that went to the same preschool, and they never saw each other again from like 6-14. He's had kids from little league in his classes. He's found his lane, and it's been good.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Sept 13, 2021 21:32:24 GMT -5
When my kids were young, we lived in a county with bad school ratings. The elementary school was ok, but after that ratings were horrible. Oldest 2 started at public. Oldest did great, was in gifted program. Kid 2 had issues due to ADD. Kid 3 started in private school so he could start K5 early. After 2 years we moved others to private school and that is where they went through 12 grade. Every year we would consider all the money and wonder if it was worth it.
We knew many kids who went through the horrible rated public school and did very well. These were mostly kids who had upper middle class, involved parents, and many were in gifted program.
The only test scores that matter are your own kids.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 14, 2021 7:07:17 GMT -5
I really appreciate everyone’s input. This will be a massive undertaking, as it will involve some sort of legal/court mediation (at best) or battle (at worst). Basically, it’s become pretty clear that I need to have more control over these types of choices for DS.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Sept 14, 2021 7:16:50 GMT -5
I know now I was lucky to have full custody of my kids, who were both outliers. We lived pre-divorce in a "great" school system oriented toward the high-achieving bright and very bright child with high-achieving parents. My DD needed something more. She applied and got herself accepted into community college at age 14, skipping high school entirely. My ex was furious.
I moved a county over to a school system that was much closer to the university DD would attend two years later as a junior. This county had a school system much more diverse and far better with outliers. DS was accepted into magnet programs where he did extremely well and received the kind of individual attention he needed. He also benefited greatly from the diversity. His best friends came form all backgrounds and cultures, which he appreciated. One friend is now an MD; one is now an engineer, one a truck driver. My ex again had no say in the move, and again, he was furious. But it was much better for both kids.
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