billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 15, 2021 16:34:47 GMT -5
Extending the Trump quote: ... if I were now President, the world would find that our withdrawal from Afghanistan would be a conditions-based withdrawal,” he said in a statement. “I personally had discussions with top Taliban leaders whereby they understood what they are doing now would not have been acceptable.”
“It would have been a much different and much more successful withdrawal, and the Taliban understood that better than anyone,” Trump continued. “What is going on now is not acceptable. It should have been done much better.” link He is doing his usual ego based letting us know that if he were in charge, it would have been a big, beautiful withdrawal.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Aug 15, 2021 16:58:22 GMT -5
I’m guessing that “condition based” withdrawal would be something like “I will withdraw troops if you sign all permits to build a Trump Tower in Kabul!”😂
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 15, 2021 18:04:42 GMT -5
Extending the Trump quote: ... if I were now President, the world would find that our withdrawal from Afghanistan would be a conditions-based withdrawal,” he said in a statement. “I personally had discussions with top Taliban leaders whereby they understood what they are doing now would not have been acceptable.”
“It would have been a much different and much more successful withdrawal, and the Taliban understood that better than anyone,” Trump continued. “What is going on now is not acceptable. It should have been done much better.” link He is doing his usual ego based letting us know that if he were in charge, it would have been a big, beautiful withdrawal. trump just making up crap again. he probably pulled out his Sharpie too.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 16, 2021 10:06:06 GMT -5
GOP takes down 2020 page touting Trump's 'historic peace agreement with the Taliban'One of the few areas of foreign policy President Biden and former President Donald Trump agreed on was ending the two-decade-long war in Afghanistan. With the Taliban's effective capture of Kabul, Afghanistan's capital, it appears the war is over two weeks before Biden's deadline, with a chaotic final rush to the exit. Biden is standing by his decision to pull out U.S. forces and contractors, but the Republican Party appears to be tiptoeing backward from Trump's role. The Republican National Committee has removed a page from the 2020 campaign that says "Biden has had a history of pushing for endless wars" while "Trump has continued to take the lead in peace talks as he signed a historic peace agreement with the Taliban in Afghanistan, which would end America's longest war," The Washington Post's David Weigel noted Sunday. Article here: linkThe trump/Taliban peace agreement should never have been signed before a peace agreement between the Taliban and the existing Afghanistan government had their own signed peace agreement.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Aug 16, 2021 10:31:03 GMT -5
Canada's role in Afghanistan cost us 18 billion dollars, not to mention the lives lost. And for what? Is that American dollars or Canadian? I agree one life was one too many.........I also wonder if America ever secretly repaid Canada as well as European nations for their cost there as we did in Vietnam. CIA moved planeloads of money around in Vietnam and I assume were doing the same thing in Afghanistan Small potatoes compared to out trillion dollar investment paid with borrowed money that we will be paying interest on for decades. Just sayin......
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 16, 2021 14:05:52 GMT -5
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 16, 2021 17:19:37 GMT -5
I feel bad for the people too, but everyone who has been alive since this 20 year war started knew this would be the outcome. What I find so surprising is the amount of people who are now so concerned for the innocent Afghans. These are the same people who for 2 decades have said we should just level the whole country and put up a parking lot. They never cared about these people one bit. And now that the Afghan army has laid down and rolled over, and there is complete chaos, all of a sudden they act like they weren't the same people who said all Muslims are bad, that they never change, that they are all terrorist, etc.
It was never going to matter who made the call to leave Afghanistan, this was what was inevitably going to happen. There is just not enough of them to fight for democracy, and many don't even want it.
Yes, it horrible, but does anyone see any other way this would have gone?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 16, 2021 17:32:53 GMT -5
In many ways I agree with you. Anyone who wasn't official should have considered how to leave the country once Trump signed the agreement. It still is sad even though at best this would have just gone slower.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 16, 2021 18:07:36 GMT -5
I feel bad for the people too, but everyone who has been alive since this 20 year war started knew this would be the outcome. What I find so surprising is the amount of people who are now so concerned for the innocent Afghans. These are the same people who for 2 decades have said we should just level the whole country and put up a parking lot. They never cared about these people one bit. And now that the Afghan army has laid down and rolled over, and there is complete chaos, all of a sudden they act like they weren't the same people who said all Muslims are bad, that they never change, that they are all terrorist, etc. It was never going to matter who made the call to leave Afghanistan, this was what was inevitably going to happen. There is just not enough of them to fight for democracy, and many don't even want it. Yes, it horrible, but does anyone see any other way this would have gone? All those "build the wall, refugees are still illegal, we don't need more immigrants" crowd certainly are being hard on Biden for not immediately saving all the translators and friendlies and their families. Where do they think those people would go? (Ps - I would have been fine if they had established a program a year ago to rescue all the loyalists and bring them to the USA. But, it would have to be on top of our normal quotas.)
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 16, 2021 18:46:21 GMT -5
I feel bad for the people too, but everyone who has been alive since this 20 year war started knew this would be the outcome. What I find so surprising is the amount of people who are now so concerned for the innocent Afghans. These are the same people who for 2 decades have said we should just level the whole country and put up a parking lot. They never cared about these people one bit. And now that the Afghan army has laid down and rolled over, and there is complete chaos, all of a sudden they act like they weren't the same people who said all Muslims are bad, that they never change, that they are all terrorist, etc. It was never going to matter who made the call to leave Afghanistan, this was what was inevitably going to happen. There is just not enough of them to fight for democracy, and many don't even want it. Yes, it horrible, but does anyone see any other way this would have gone? Yeah, my relative, who during the early parts of the BLM riots and then protests was literally screaming in anger that the rioters should be rounded up and shot - and then their families should be arrested and shot as well. And that this was the way to end it. Kill them all. When he started going on about how all those innocent afghans would be taken out and shot... and how bad he felt... over and over again... I was confused and then my insincerity meter went off the charts. He was mocking the Democrats and Joe Biden. He was mocking how people were upset and up in arms by the things trump did and said (hey! trump's very fine people deserved sympathy and compassion! but didn't get it). Here were Democrats/Biden doing things trump would do and no one was upset or worried about the "poor innocent lives that were being lost" in Afghanistan. He doesn't care about what happens in Afghanistan - just that the Democrats seems to have done a 180 and are now OK with letting people die. I feel strongly about Afghanistan since the war started (it was wrong on so many levels). And I've followed the war over the years. I don't know how anyone thought some version (maybe less awful/maybe more awful) of what's happening now wouldn't happen. And the local populations HAVE been living in a war zone for the last 20 years... they haven't had peace at all. I'm guessing the local populations may have seen this coming. Or expected something like it to happen. This is one of those times when Hope is the evilest of all virtues.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Aug 16, 2021 19:49:01 GMT -5
I'm upset about this. I have barely read this thread because I'm so annoyed. I cannot actuall talk to anyone IRL about this because I'm sure I'll present as an atrocious beeyotch.
1. How dare both parties just switch back and forth and blame whomever the sitting president is for whatever is happening. That's BS on both sides. 2. How the freaking long were we supposed to stay there? How is it the US's fault that the Afghani people cannot determine how to rule themselves? 3. If were' supposed to feel guilty about the current situation in Afghanistan, then why haven't we invaded Myanmar or Syria or Dufor when it was ridiculous or Rwanda or Cuba or Venezuela? or or or or or 4. WE complain about how much money we spent and now we want to spend more? WTAH? 5. We care about this particular set of people but the people from Honduras can eat poop? WTAH? 6. We spent how many millions of dollars on this but we cannot properly fund K-12 education? 7. How dare anyone say that any American life lost was lost in vain? That's BS every.single.time. We do the best we can with the information and resources that we have AT THE TIME and it is what it its. ANY life that ends prematurally by unnautrual causes is technically in vain!
AAAGGHHH I'm not even spelling words correctly.
I'm sorry. I'm not yelling at any of you. I'm just so annoyed about all of this and had to get that out.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 16, 2021 20:38:15 GMT -5
I'm upset about this. I have barely read this thread because I'm so annoyed. I cannot actuall talk to anyone IRL about this because I'm sure I'll present as an atrocious beeyotch.
1. How dare both parties just switch back and forth and blame whomever the sitting president is for whatever is happening. That's BS on both sides. 2. How the freaking long were we supposed to stay there? How is it the US's fault that the Afghani people cannot determine how to rule themselves? 3. If were' supposed to feel guilty about the current situation in Afghanistan, then why haven't we invaded Myanmar or Syria or Dufor when it was ridiculous or Rwanda or Cuba or Venezuela? or or or or or 4. WE complain about how much money we spent and now we want to spend more? WTAH? 5. We care about this particular set of people but the people from Honduras can eat poop? WTAH? 6. We spent how many millions of dollars on this but we cannot properly fund K-12 education? 7. How dare anyone say that any American life lost was lost in vain? That's BS every.single.time. We do the best we can with the information and resources that we have AT THE TIME and it is what it its. ANY life that ends prematurally by unnautrual causes is technically in vain!
AAAGGHHH I'm not even spelling words correctly.
I'm sorry. I'm not yelling at any of you. I'm just so annoyed about all of this and had to get that out. How many million? Over $2M million. $2,261,000 Million. AKA $2.261 trillion link
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 17, 2021 7:58:21 GMT -5
I'm upset about this. I have barely read this thread because I'm so annoyed. I cannot actuall talk to anyone IRL about this because I'm sure I'll present as an atrocious beeyotch.
1. How dare both parties just switch back and forth and blame whomever the sitting president is for whatever is happening. That's BS on both sides. 2. How the freaking long were we supposed to stay there? How is it the US's fault that the Afghani people cannot determine how to rule themselves? 3. If were' supposed to feel guilty about the current situation in Afghanistan, then why haven't we invaded Myanmar or Syria or Dufor when it was ridiculous or Rwanda or Cuba or Venezuela? or or or or or 4. WE complain about how much money we spent and now we want to spend more? WTAH? 5. We care about this particular set of people but the people from Honduras can eat poop? WTAH? 6. We spent how many millions of dollars on this but we cannot properly fund K-12 education? 7. How dare anyone say that any American life lost was lost in vain? That's BS every.single.time. We do the best we can with the information and resources that we have AT THE TIME and it is what it its. ANY life that ends prematurally by unnautrual causes is technically in vain!
AAAGGHHH I'm not even spelling words correctly.
I'm sorry. I'm not yelling at any of you. I'm just so annoyed about all of this and had to get that out. How many million? Over $2M million. $2,261,000 Million. AKA $2.261 trillion linkThe really annoying part is a good chunk of that went to the Afghanistan president and his cronies, who have now fled the country and retired to their villas someplace where they can enjoy life in a first world setting. The Afghanistan military didn’t think their government was worth fighting for, and they are right. I’m glad Biden publicly took ownership of this circus, rather than trying to blame someone else, as the former president would have done. Good or bad, Biden owns it. Sorry for Afghanistan, hopefully anyone who wants to get out has the opportunity to leave, and if those that remain chose to return to being an illiterate, Middle Ages religious feudal society, that’s fine, as long as they refrain from harboring terrorists.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 17, 2021 8:18:14 GMT -5
How many million? Over $2M million. $2,261,000 Million. AKA $2.261 trillion linkThe really annoying part is a good chunk of that went to the Afghanistan president and his cronies, who have now fled the country and retired to their villas someplace where they can enjoy life in a first world setting. The Afghanistan military didn’t think their government was worth fighting for, and they are right. I’m glad Biden publicly took ownership of this circus, rather than trying to blame someone else, as the former president would have done. Good or bad, Biden owns it. Sorry for Afghanistan, hopefully anyone who wants to get out has the opportunity to leave, and if those that remain chose to return to being an illiterate, Middle Ages religious feudal society, that’s fine, as long as they refrain from harboring terrorists. I did not know it was that bad until I read a few articles. Explains why some of them just flew themselves across the border.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 17, 2021 9:11:43 GMT -5
It is sad that not enough of the military thought that their fellow citizens were worth fighting for.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 17, 2021 9:13:58 GMT -5
The really annoying part is a good chunk of that went to the Afghanistan president and his cronies, who have now fled the country and retired to their villas someplace where they can enjoy life in a first world setting. The Afghanistan military didn’t think their government was worth fighting for, and they are right. I’m glad Biden publicly took ownership of this circus, rather than trying to blame someone else, as the former president would have done. Good or bad, Biden owns it. Sorry for Afghanistan, hopefully anyone who wants to get out has the opportunity to leave, and if those that remain chose to return to being an illiterate, Middle Ages religious feudal society, that’s fine, as long as they refrain from harboring terrorists. I did not know it was that bad until I read a few articles. Explains why some of them just flew themselves across the border. Reminds me of senator Ted Cruz fleeing the cold in Texas and flying to Cancun this past winter. Poor ted.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 17, 2021 9:21:51 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 17, 2021 10:03:51 GMT -5
My response was for flying out of the country for their lives and mocking Cruz for fleeing the cold.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 17, 2021 10:47:56 GMT -5
My response was for flying out of the country for their lives and mocking Cruz for fleeing the cold. Understood. My response was just that I wasn't equating the deadly serious events in Afghanistan to our partisan bickering.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 17, 2021 11:04:29 GMT -5
It is sad that not enough of the military thought that their fellow citizens were worth fighting for. Apparently the officers in their military had a habit of stealing the wages of their direct reports. If everyone in power was grifting the system to enrich themselves I can understand why the general population, including the foot soldiers, might fare better under a different government. It’s unfortunate that Afghanistan can’t seem to break free of the war lord form of government, whether it’s the president at the top of the heap gaining all the rewards or a religious war lord at the top of the heap.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2021 11:18:20 GMT -5
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 17, 2021 11:50:19 GMT -5
I cant help but notice, looking at all the pictures of the fleeing Afghans in planes, that most of them are men! You would think those planes would be full of women and children that are the most in danger of losing everything, but maybe they just can't get to the airport. Where are these men's families? Are they just abandoning them for their own self interest? This is all my own speculation, but it doesn't look very good to me. Not a lot of older people on those planes either. Maybe this is just the group that was able to fight there way onto the planes easiest....
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Aug 17, 2021 14:48:59 GMT -5
I cant help but notice, looking at all the pictures of the fleeing Afghans in planes, that most of them are men! You would think those planes would be full of women and children that are the most in danger of losing everything, but maybe they just can't get to the airport. Where are these men's families? Are they just abandoning them for their own self interest? This is all my own speculation, but it doesn't look very good to me. Not a lot of older people on those planes either. Maybe this is just the group that was able to fight there way onto the planes easiest.... On the runway, so true! Picture of the transport with 640 people pushed in there, I could see a better mix of males and females based on the number of scarves in the picture. Might have been children sitting on the mother's lap? Saw a report this morning on cable saying there were many women, children, and old peope in the airport terminal trying to get out. Also saw a video of people climbing the concrete wall at the airport pulling children over to the other side I assume they were not going to be running down the runways chasing the planes............. but based on the miliary basically abandoning their posts, it is safe to assume many were former soldiers running down the runway with the jet..............
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 17, 2021 14:56:58 GMT -5
I cant help but notice, looking at all the pictures of the fleeing Afghans in planes, that most of them are men! You would think those planes would be full of women and children that are the most in danger of losing everything, but maybe they just can't get to the airport. Where are these men's families? Are they just abandoning them for their own self interest? This is all my own speculation, but it doesn't look very good to me. Not a lot of older people on those planes either. Maybe this is just the group that was able to fight there way onto the planes easiest.... On the runway, so true! Picture of the transport with 640 people pushed in there, I could see a better mix of males and females based on the number of scarves in the picture. Might have been children sitting on the mother's lap? Saw a report this morning on cable saying there were many women, children, and old peope in the airport terminal trying to get out. Also saw a video of people climbing the concrete wall at the airport pulling children over to the other side I assume they were not going to be running down the runways chasing the planes............. but based on the miliary basically abandoning their posts, it is safe to assume many were former soldiers running down the runway with the jet.............. Still looks like a lot of dudes to me, but it is hard to tell unless you look for scarves. Some women aren't wearing them. I do see children though!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 17, 2021 15:13:02 GMT -5
On the runway, so true! Picture of the transport with 640 people pushed in there, I could see a better mix of males and females based on the number of scarves in the picture. Might have been children sitting on the mother's lap? Saw a report this morning on cable saying there were many women, children, and old peope in the airport terminal trying to get out. Also saw a video of people climbing the concrete wall at the airport pulling children over to the other side I assume they were not going to be running down the runways chasing the planes............. but based on the miliary basically abandoning their posts, it is safe to assume many were former soldiers running down the runway with the jet.............. Still looks like a lot of dudes to me, but it is hard to tell unless you look for scarves. Some women aren't wearing them. I do see children though! It doesn't look to be 50/50.....
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 17, 2021 15:22:18 GMT -5
On the runway, so true! Picture of the transport with 640 people pushed in there, I could see a better mix of males and females based on the number of scarves in the picture. Might have been children sitting on the mother's lap? Saw a report this morning on cable saying there were many women, children, and old peope in the airport terminal trying to get out. Also saw a video of people climbing the concrete wall at the airport pulling children over to the other side I assume they were not going to be running down the runways chasing the planes............. but based on the miliary basically abandoning their posts, it is safe to assume many were former soldiers running down the runway with the jet.............. Still looks like a lot of dudes to me, but it is hard to tell unless you look for scarves. Some women aren't wearing them. I do see children though! I would guess that who ever could send their families away in the months leading up to this did so - which means husbands who were working - might have sent their other families away months ago. OK, I know I'm using movies and a book or two I've read as "proof" but In the graphic novel and movie 'Persepolis' (2007) the heroine's family (and other families) send their daughters abroad (to school) to avoid the increasingly fundamentalist Islamic Government. The wives (and grand parents) also find ways to leave before the final "no one gets out" happens. It's the husbands/fathers who are the last to leave (they are also the workers/breadwinners for their families). This movie is autobiographical for the most part. It makes sense. I'm sure some of the inhabitants could see this coming. I'm sure if they could send their loved ones away (out of the country) they did as soon as they could. I am happy to see women in the photo - but the ratio of men to women based on the photo may not tell the whole story. This isn't the first time something like this has happened... and that makes it even worse. Humans aren't getting any better.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 17, 2021 15:23:10 GMT -5
Hopefully the people granting access to the plane in those last chaotic hours took into account transgender and non-binary individuals and have them represented at proper levels.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 17, 2021 15:51:13 GMT -5
I agree with Tiny. Its hard to know what the mix should be or who was leaving versus who left already. Sad situation though especially on how quick everything collapsed.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 17, 2021 15:59:21 GMT -5
Same with the boatloads of 'refugees' washing up on Europe's shores. Mostly all men.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 17, 2021 20:27:21 GMT -5
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