Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,362
|
Post by Tiny on Jun 8, 2021 18:42:26 GMT -5
Not really going after the "disability" part of this. I'm pretty sure there's lots of people who have enlisted and are on active duty that aren't carrying a gun or expected to.
I'm guessing the draft is used to fill non-combatant jobs as was as the combatant job.
Somebody needs to push paper (order supplies). Somebody needs to cook food so everyone gets to eat. Somebody needs to do laundry and make sure people have a place to sleep at night. Somebody needs to build shelters/airfields whatever the heck is needed. Somebody needs to be able to repair equipment and probably program the equipment. Somebody needs to be doing all the support jobs. And I'm guessing you don't need to be in top notch fighting condition to do it.
I am NOT dissing the Military or the people who work those jobs. I'm just saying I'm betting there are a heck of a lot of non-combatant jobs supporting the combatant job. And I suspect in the past some of those drafted did non-combatant jobs.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,362
|
Post by Tiny on Jun 8, 2021 19:05:46 GMT -5
I'm disagreeing with the idea that traditionally women and perhaps female children have been 'sheltered' from ravages of war or war related violence because they are necessary to create the next generation (as a reason women shouldn't be part of the draft). Or maybe that in times of peace women and female children have gotten some special sort of treatment when they had no "male benefactor" to protect them... because they were needed to create the next generation.
And I am not disagreeing that in the modern age providing help to ALL families in difficult times is in the best interest of society (or a Nation).
IDK, for some reason the way this is worded rubs me the wrong way: On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women.
If having children is the end all and be all for my existence - then what does it mean when I can't or don't reproduce? Have I failed as a woman?
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 19:48:20 GMT -5
I'm disagreeing with the idea that traditionally women and perhaps female children have been 'sheltered' from ravages of war or war related violence because they are necessary to create the next generation (as a reason women shouldn't be part of the draft). Or maybe that in times of peace women and female children have gotten some special sort of treatment when they had no "male benefactor" to protect them... because they were needed to create the next generation. And I am not disagreeing that in the modern age providing help to ALL families in difficult times is in the best interest of society (or a Nation). IDK, for some reason the way this is worded rubs me the wrong way: On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. If having children is the end all and be all for my existence - then what does it mean when I can't or don't reproduce? Have I failed as a woman? Is continuation of our society the end all and be all for your existence? Or even a priority? If it is, what have you done to live that? There are a lot of things a person might do. Serving in the military to defend it, teach new generations about it, run for government office, volunteer on committees doing public service, parent the next generation either ones you gave birth to if you are female or through adoption or foster parenting, etc. If perpetuating our society is something you think is important but do nothing to make it happen, then you might reasonably consider yourself a failure. The idea that women should not be drafted was offered by someone who indicated that she had come close to dying when giving birth. She said that putting her life on the line for bringing into the world our nation's next generation should exempt her (and women in general) from mandatory military service which could mean putting her life on the line again. It was her belief that men should be the ones required to do that in the military. It was her sense of equity. I am hearing it not shared by many others.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 20:31:35 GMT -5
Not really going after the "disability" part of this. I'm pretty sure there's lots of people who have enlisted and are on active duty that aren't carrying a gun or expected to. I'm guessing the draft is used to fill non-combatant jobs as was as the combatant job. Somebody needs to push paper (order supplies). Somebody needs to cook food so everyone gets to eat. Somebody needs to do laundry and make sure people have a place to sleep at night. Somebody needs to build shelters/airfields whatever the heck is needed. Somebody needs to be able to repair equipment and probably program the equipment. Somebody needs to be doing all the support jobs. And I'm guessing you don't need to be in top notch fighting condition to do it. I am NOT dissing the Military or the people who work those jobs. I'm just saying I'm betting there are a heck of a lot of non-combatant jobs supporting the combatant job. And I suspect in the past some of those drafted did non-combatant jobs. Also medic is a common job for those with conscientious objection to being a combatant. Far from a simple yes or no on whether they are needed. When I was a recruiter, a qualification bar was set at the start of recruiting year that was slowly lowered based on how many people were signing up in a given year. In a draft situation, having no idea of what the need would be and no idea what the gap would be between volunteers and need make it impractical to pre-screen.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,679
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2021 6:21:48 GMT -5
Yeah, no. America didn't really have much support for mothers, widows, unmarried females, or orphans until the 20th century. I think this held true for most foreign countries as well. I think the big hey day of "social help" was between 1900 and 1935 in America. Before that women with a male benefactor (and some men) had to rely on the charity of others or just accept one's shitty lot in life OR accept one's fate (if bad things happened). And lots of Americans were unhappy when we did give financial supports women and children (who did not have male benefactors - if they had a male benefactor it was up to that man to provide what kind of care he could). Lots of countries today do just fine with giving women and children very little support (or legal rights). And an edit. I think the heart of the issue is - we have a societal culture where women do not have the same rights as men and are not treated equitably (or equally). Allowing women to serve in the military - either means the military jobs can be done by women (women's work) which means men in those military jobs will be demeaned (they are doing women's work and it's NOT as honorable as doing men's work). I think THAT's the issue. Hmmm. The IRS on Monday announced it has started sending letters to more than 36 million American families who may be eligible for the expanded child tax credit and monthly payments set to begin in July.
The maximum enhanced credit, which was established by the American Rescue Plan in March, is $3,600 for children younger than age 6 and $3,000 for those between 6 and 17 for 2021.
link Parents often get perks during hard times as part of a national save the children thought pattern. It certainly is welcome for those who fall in the bottom 40%. It would be another thread to discuss society's ying/yang playoff of rights when it comes to women and children. Right now, children cant choose the vaccine for their own health if it goes against their parents desires. Meanwhile, some states want to choose to make a woman's choice and health less important should she find herself newly pregnant. Yet abortion is considered by some to be murder who seem to not notice all the times children are abused in our society. Ones you would expect, like autistic and developmentally disabled. Men seem to get to opt out of these dilemnas entirely, unless one of those kids is theirs. Does anyone notice how many of the underfunded households seem to have a high percentage of child abuse and death? Good thing I need to go to work, as this is an angry rant point for me right now. I almost want to start an anti birth at all costs advertising campaign. It would feature the kids and infants who died too soon, after an abused life. My tag line on the image or poster would be something like .... "Isn't great the parents had no choice to abort, so this child could grow up and end their life this way?" Needs work. Recent URL which is much less funny than some of the arranged wedding mishaps in India. www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/11-year-old-boy-testifies-against-stepfather-says-he-heard-loud-bang-and-saw-baby-joe-on-the-floor/ar-AAKPGyR?ocid=msedgntpSummary, yet another dead autistic child by a adult who should have cared for him.
|
|
tractor
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 15:19:30 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by tractor on Jun 9, 2021 10:56:32 GMT -5
I think the draft is an old system that needs to go away, just like the style of combat has changed since it was first started, the process for recruitment should change as well. The draft just simply isn’t needed anymore.
The fact that all males 18-25 are required to register in order to get any federal aid, including student loans seems discriminatory to me. Just end the process and be done with it.
The “next” real war will be fought with computers and drones, on the ground troop combat requires significantly fewer bodies that during past wars.
|
|
hurley1980
Well-Known Member
I am all that is wrong with the world....don't get too close, I'm contagious.
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 17:35:06 GMT -5
Posts: 1,942
Member is Online
|
Post by hurley1980 on Jun 9, 2021 11:08:24 GMT -5
I don't think we need the draft anymore, but I guess if we did, it wouldn't care if women were included as long as it is realistic about the types of jobs women can do. I know there are strong tough women out there that can do the same job as any man, but I was not one of them. When I was 18, I weighed 100 lbs. I was in peak shape, because I was a dancer and a gymnast, but there is no way I could run miles with a pack weighing half my weight on my back. I could have done administrative tasks or laundry or something, but I wouldnt have been physically able to do a lot of the stuff my ex did in the army.
My friends mom is about my size, she was in the army when she was young. I remember her telling me they were doing training where they were instructing landing helicopters. She had to have 2 men with her, because she was so light, they wind from the helicopter was literally blowing her away. There were so many things she just couldnt do in the army that bigger women and men could do.
Its a fact that women just aren't as strong as men as we are built different. So the draft would need to take that into consideration.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2021 14:36:31 GMT -5
I was thinking about those who have issues with a male only registration system and potentially males only draft. If there were to be reinstatement of a draft that only includes men thus perpetuating male privilege, one way to mitigate it would be to volunteer if female and of a suitable age or strongly encourage daughters/granddaughters or other females to volunteer.
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Jun 9, 2021 14:46:23 GMT -5
I was thinking about those who have issues with a male only registration system and potentially males only draft. If there were to be reinstatement of a draft that only includes men thus perpetuating male privilege, one way to mitigate it would be to volunteer if female and of a suitable age or strongly encourage daughters/granddaughters or other females to volunteer. The male privilege of coming home in a box? And it’s 1 2 3 what are we fighting’ for...
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2021 14:51:24 GMT -5
I was thinking about those who have issues with a male only registration system and potentially males only draft. If there were to be reinstatement of a draft that only includes men thus perpetuating male privilege, one way to mitigate it would be to volunteer if female and of a suitable age or strongly encourage daughters/granddaughters or other females to volunteer. The male privilege of coming home in a box? And it’s 1 2 3 what are we fighting’ for... I will admit I am a bit confused with the idea that this is a male privilege/power situation but it reads like some do see it that way.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 9, 2021 21:01:14 GMT -5
I was thinking about those who have issues with a male only registration system and potentially males only draft. If there were to be reinstatement of a draft that only includes men thus perpetuating male privilege, one way to mitigate it would be to volunteer if female and of a suitable age or strongly encourage daughters/granddaughters or other females to volunteer. Nothing stops men from volunteering in the draft. An old coworker did that in order to pick which branch he went into. There was another reason why he did too but I'm forgetting. Ironically he was only in for a month or two due to timing. Years later he signed up with another branch and did his 20 then.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2021 21:06:11 GMT -5
I was thinking about those who have issues with a male only registration system and potentially males only draft. If there were to be reinstatement of a draft that only includes men thus perpetuating male privilege, one way to mitigate it would be to volunteer if female and of a suitable age or strongly encourage daughters/granddaughters or other females to volunteer. Nothing stops men from volunteering in the draft. An old coworker did that in order to pick which branch he went into. There was another reason why he did too but I'm forgetting. Ironically he was only in for a month or two due to timing. Years later he signed up with another branch and did his 20 then. And if enough people no matter the gender they identify as volunteer, it will eliminate any need for a draft.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 9, 2021 21:50:08 GMT -5
True. I'm not a draft component. My biggest thought on it was the first comment I posted. As a whole I'm anti the military complex so the draft probably falls under that.
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Jun 9, 2021 21:57:40 GMT -5
So there we all were finished with the monotonous all Catholic school HS graduation, May 1970, and we broke into this song:
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2021 22:01:20 GMT -5
True. I'm not a draft component. My biggest thought on it was the first comment I posted. As a whole I'm anti the military complex so the draft probably falls under that. This one? In theory I don't have a problem with requiring both sexes to register in the draft. In practice I have a big ass problem with a government treating women as equal as men when it comes to the draft but that doesn't treat them equally in other areas. So sign me up for the draft once the government no longer tells me what I have to do with my body and there's legislature that ensures I'm paid as much as men and it's mandated that women have paid time to heal after birthing a human. Until then - fuck off. The only problem I see is that the people who want to keep you barefoot and pregnant are the same people who don't support you registering for the draft.
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Jun 9, 2021 22:03:45 GMT -5
But not to worry as we were an almost all white class of a Jesuit prep school. Only 2 members of my class went into the military. One enlisted in the Navy, a family tradition. The other became a Marine MP in San Diego. Safe duty and a clear indication how the privileged were allowed to skate with the 2S deferment and/or a lottery number that either allowed total freedom from the draft or DickCheney type behavior. Not one individual from my HS 1966-72 died in ‘Nam. Not even sure if any set foot in country. More than just white privileged.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 9, 2021 22:23:50 GMT -5
True. I'm not a draft component. My biggest thought on it was the first comment I posted. As a whole I'm anti the military complex so the draft probably falls under that. This one? In theory I don't have a problem with requiring both sexes to register in the draft. In practice I have a big ass problem with a government treating women as equal as men when it comes to the draft but that doesn't treat them equally in other areas. So sign me up for the draft once the government no longer tells me what I have to do with my body and there's legislature that ensures I'm paid as much as men and it's mandated that women have paid time to heal after birthing a human. Until then - fuck off. The only problem I see is that the people who want to keep you barefoot and pregnant are the same people who don't support you registering for the draft. Then I'll hope their number comes up in the draft...
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,432
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2021 22:26:52 GMT -5
So there we all were finished with the monotonous all Catholic school HS graduation, May 1970, and we broke into this song: Read a cute story. Country Joe was in town to do a concert. The local sheriff informed him, "This is a decent town and if you do that fucking cheer I will yank you off that fucking stage so fucking fast your fucking head will spin. Hear me boy." Country Joe assures him he heard. He takes the stage. There are thirty some cops, arms akimbo, lined up on the floor facing him. He yells, "Give me a L" And the crowd answers "L" "Give me an O" And the crowd answers "O" "Give me a V" And the crowd answers "V" "Give me an E" And the crowd answers "E" He smiles down at the cops and yells "What's that spell?" And the crowd of thousands behind the cops answer, "fuck - Fuck - " FUCK.
|
|
dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
|
Post by dondub on Jun 9, 2021 22:48:43 GMT -5
😂😎😂😎😂😎😂😎
|
|