billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 7, 2021 16:46:24 GMT -5
Some time back this discussion was had on the board. A former poster, Shooby, made the point that females risk their lives in bringing the nation's next generation into the world and that is their contribution. Made me less certain they should have to register. I look forward to further discussion.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 7, 2021 17:15:51 GMT -5
Are current wars still fought by legions of soldiers on the field of battle hand to hand? (I may have watched one too many old war movies.)
Isn't there a disconnect of sorts - in that women can voluntarily join the military (as can men) - but if we go to war and the draft is needed only men would be told when and where to show up to fulfill their obligation and duty as Americans? But, women would still be able to voluntarily enlist at the same time - or would they be turned away?
I know very little about this.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jun 7, 2021 17:24:47 GMT -5
The way I read it is that the Supreme Court does not want to get involved with creating regulations... that is Congress' responsibility.
"...But they [SCOTUS] noted Congress is currently considering the question of including women in the draft registration. In 2016 it created the National Commission on Military, National, and Public Service to study the matter, and the commission has now released a final report recommending that draft registration include both men and women between the ages of 18 and 26.... ..."It remains to be seen whether that will actually happen," the three justices said, but "at least for now, the Court's longstanding deference to Congress on matters of national defense and military affairs cautions against granting review while Congress actively weighs the issue.""
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 7, 2021 17:26:24 GMT -5
Isn't there a disconnect? Right now Women can join voluntarily military just like men? But if we go to war only men can be told they must show and enlist? I assume women could opt to voluntarily enlist where men would told what day to show up? A disconnect from what? Yes both can volunteer. Only males are required to pre-register so that the time from enacting of a draft to implement would be lessened. The specifics of a future draft are not in place currently. It could be more than just males. I don't see any situation that women would be banned from volunteering. EDIT: didn't see your edit
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jun 7, 2021 17:33:46 GMT -5
As for the draft, yes, I think that women should be drafted just like men. I also feel that women should be paid as much as men.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 7, 2021 17:39:16 GMT -5
I don't think either should be drafted. If enough Americans won't volunteer, I say we negotiate for peace or surrender.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 7, 2021 18:19:21 GMT -5
Isn't there a disconnect? Right now Women can join voluntarily military just like men? But if we go to war only men can be told they must show and enlist? I assume women could opt to voluntarily enlist where men would told what day to show up? A disconnect from what? Yes both can volunteer. Only males are required to pre-register so that the time from enacting of a draft to implement would be lessened. The specifics of a future draft are not in place currently. It could be more than just males. I don't see any situation that women would be banned from volunteering. EDIT: didn't see your edit Sorry about the editing... It feels like a disconnect because if men AND women can volunteer to do military Job A. But during wartime men are required to do show up and do Job A. If women can perform military "jobs" voluntarily (just like men) when America doesn't need to require men to sign up to do those "jobs" why would women be excluded from the draft? It's not like we currently aren't at war (Afghanistan) or been participating in other wars (in the last 20 years) - and there are women in the military and I'm pretty sure some of them have been in combat situations. That's the disconnect - like the draft needs to be updated to what's currently happening. Maybe disconnect is the wrong word... (is the fear that drafting women along with men - would take away 'cushy' jobs from some of the men get drafted? kind of like how Affirmative Action keeps college educations from "some" white guys?? because the school must accept a minority and there aren't enough "seats" so some white guys don't get to go to college)?
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 7, 2021 18:42:42 GMT -5
I didn’t realize that boys still had to register! I still have copy of registration of my son but that was back in 1984.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 7, 2021 18:59:04 GMT -5
A disconnect from what? Yes both can volunteer. Only males are required to pre-register so that the time from enacting of a draft to implement would be lessened. The specifics of a future draft are not in place currently. It could be more than just males. I don't see any situation that women would be banned from volunteering. EDIT: didn't see your edit Sorry about the editing... It feels like a disconnect because if men AND women can volunteer to do military Job A. But during wartime men are required to do show up and do Job A. If women can perform military "jobs" voluntarily (just like men) when America doesn't need to require men to sign up to do those "jobs" why would women be excluded from the draft? It's not like we currently aren't at war (Afghanistan) or been participating in other wars (in the last 20 years) - and there are women in the military and I'm pretty sure some of them have been in combat situations. That's the disconnect - like the draft needs to be updated to what's currently happening. Maybe disconnect is the wrong word... (is the fear that drafting women along with men - would take away 'cushy' jobs from some of the men get drafted? kind of like how Affirmative Action keeps college educations from "some" white guys?? because the school must accept a minority and there aren't enough "seats" so some white guys don't get to go to college)? Got the "disconnect" now. I think that there is a strong amount of avoidance going on in Congress. Changing the status quo would give motivation to those who think there should be no registration to protest. It would motivate those who don't think women should be serving at all and those who think it is okay for them to volunteer but they shouldn't be forced to serve to protest. And those who think it only fair both have to register will just say "cool" and move on. I think most of the resistance is just old fashioned women are the fairer sex and men folk need to protect them sexism.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 7, 2021 21:33:35 GMT -5
As for the draft, yes, I think that women should be drafted just like men. I also feel that women should be paid as much as men. This
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 7, 2021 21:48:30 GMT -5
In theory I don't have a problem with requiring both sexes to register in the draft.
In practice I have a big ass problem with a government treating women as equal as men when it comes to the draft but that doesn't treat them equally in other areas.
So sign me up for the draft once the government no longer tells me what I have to do with my body and there's legislature that ensures I'm paid as much as men and it's mandated that women have paid time to heal after birthing a human.
Until then - fuck off.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 8, 2021 3:50:34 GMT -5
A disconnect from what? Yes both can volunteer. Only males are required to pre-register so that the time from enacting of a draft to implement would be lessened. The specifics of a future draft are not in place currently. It could be more than just males. I don't see any situation that women would be banned from volunteering. EDIT: didn't see your edit Sorry about the editing... It feels like a disconnect because if men AND women can volunteer to do military Job A. But during wartime men are required to do show up and do Job A. If women can perform military "jobs" voluntarily (just like men) when America doesn't need to require men to sign up to do those "jobs" why would women be excluded from the draft? It's not like we currently aren't at war (Afghanistan) or been participating in other wars (in the last 20 years) - and there are women in the military and I'm pretty sure some of them have been in combat situations. That's the disconnect - like the draft needs to be updated to what's currently happening. Maybe disconnect is the wrong word... (is the fear that drafting women along with men - would take away 'cushy' jobs from some of the men get drafted? kind of like how Affirmative Action keeps college educations from "some" white guys?? because the school must accept a minority and there aren't enough "seats" so some white guys don't get to go to college)? I agree there is a huge disconnect in the concept of the draft and the reality of a future war and how it would work. The reality of a large war that requires large numbers of able-bodied men (and maybe women) to March across land for combat is old school thought. New wars are fought with less manpower more equipment. You need people to move equipment, support equipment, operate equipment, repair equipment. Less infantry, more specialized fighting forces. So we still have a selective service for males, yet we haven’t had a draft in 50 years. But we still collect names, and spend money making sure everyone signs up. I’m not sure what happens if you don’t sign up, I know it can prevent college aid, not sure what else. How much money is spent collecting names and nothing else? I just think it is archaic system that needs to be done away with. You should include women if you have it, but better to just ditch the whole system.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 8, 2021 9:19:35 GMT -5
In theory I don't have a problem with requiring both sexes to register in the draft. In practice I have a big ass problem with a government treating women as equal as men when it comes to the draft but that doesn't treat them equally in other areas. So sign me up for the draft once the government no longer tells me what I have to do with my body and there's legislature that ensures I'm paid as much as men and it's mandated that women have paid time to heal after birthing a human. Until then - fuck off. It is often said that a man should have no say in what a woman does with her body. If the draft only applies to males, should congresswoman be allowed to vote on matters that affect males' bodies ? They can be literally be blown to bits and have no choice in this mandatory service. Congresswomen have been voting on this since it's inception in 1917. How about the government stop overreaching and telling people what to do with their own body regardless of gender. Then everyone can be in charge of themselves.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 8, 2021 9:52:52 GMT -5
Some time back this discussion was had on the board. A former poster, Shooby, made the point that females risk their lives in bringing the nation's next generation into the world and that is their contribution. Made me less certain they should have to register. I look forward to further discussion. Motherhood is voluntary (in an ideal world at least), and we haven't yet devolved into the Handmaid's Tale.
However, bodily autonomy, for everyone should be assured and the draft should be abolished. If you can't get enough citizens to volunteer for your war, maybe you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 10:07:17 GMT -5
Some time back this discussion was had on the board. A former poster, Shooby, made the point that females risk their lives in bringing the nation's next generation into the world and that is their contribution. Made me less certain they should have to register. I look forward to further discussion. Motherhood is voluntary (in an ideal world at least), and we haven't yet devolved into the Handmaid's Tale.
However, bodily autonomy, for everyone should be assured and the draft should be abolished. If you can't get enough citizens to volunteer for your war, maybe you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place.
On an individual level, you correct on motherhood. On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. I do agree we shouldn't draft anyone. I am looking at this as an "if ..., then ..." situation.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 8, 2021 10:14:01 GMT -5
Motherhood is voluntary (in an ideal world at least), and we haven't yet devolved into the Handmaid's Tale.
However, bodily autonomy, for everyone should be assured and the draft should be abolished. If you can't get enough citizens to volunteer for your war, maybe you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place.
On an individual level, you correct on motherhood. On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. I do agree we shouldn't draft anyone. I am looking at this as an "if ..., then ..." situation. I'm not sure war is a societal requirement for survival on par with procreation. But my argument would be the same; if you can't make a convincing argument for the propagation of the species/society, maybe it's not worth saving.
Incentives are one thing, forced compliance another. If you want to give people money and benefits to enlist/have kids, by all means, do so. Though I do think we could probably chill out on the procreation front for a while.
For the draft analogy to be an if...then...situation you would need to be talking about conscripting women into childbirth and frankly, I would rather enlist than have a kid.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 8, 2021 10:23:04 GMT -5
Until the ERA goes through, and women have all of the legal freedoms that men enjoy, I don't believe women should have to sign up for the draft.
And speaking of the stupidity of the draft, our special needs son was required, by law, to sign up. Due to how his disability has affected him, he'd be the last person you'd want to hand a loaded gun.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 10:32:41 GMT -5
On an individual level, you correct on motherhood. On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. I do agree we shouldn't draft anyone. I am looking at this as an "if ..., then ..." situation. I'm not sure war is a societal requirement for survival on par with procreation. But my argument would be the same; if you can't make a convincing argument for the propagation of the species/society, maybe it's not worth saving.
Incentives are one thing, forced compliance another. If you want to give people money and benefits to enlist/have kids, by all means, do so. Though I do think we could probably chill out on the procreation front for a while.
For the draft analogy to be an if...then...situation you would need to be talking about conscripting women into childbirth and frankly, I would rather enlist than have a kid.
I agree many of the wars the US gets itself into aren't survival level conflicts but WWII was. Experts sound the alarm on declining birth rates among younger generations: "It's a crisis" good point. As I said earlier, I welcome this discussion.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 10:35:33 GMT -5
Until the ERA goes through, and women have all of the legal freedoms that men enjoy, I don't believe women should have to sign up for the draft. And speaking of the stupidity of the draft, our special needs son was required, by law, to sign up. Due to how his disability has affected him, he'd be the last person you'd want to hand a loaded gun. How do you determine person "A" should not drafted if you don't start with them registering?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 8, 2021 10:42:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure war is a societal requirement for survival on par with procreation. But my argument would be the same; if you can't make a convincing argument for the propagation of the species/society, maybe it's not worth saving.
Incentives are one thing, forced compliance another. If you want to give people money and benefits to enlist/have kids, by all means, do so. Though I do think we could probably chill out on the procreation front for a while.
For the draft analogy to be an if...then...situation you would need to be talking about conscripting women into childbirth and frankly, I would rather enlist than have a kid.
I agree many of the wars the US gets itself into aren't survival level conflicts but WWII was. Experts sound the alarm on declining birth rates among younger generations: "It's a crisis" good point. As I said earlier, I welcome this discussion. Yeah...the author and I are going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of crisis. I have heard/read similar articles and in the short term, US context, maybe. But it's not that we don't have the resources to support our population, its that wealth is being aggregated in an increasingly lopsided fashion. There are other ways to address this than more laborers for the mill.
I will continue to be okay with declining birth rates as long as well still have persistent global issues with famine, inequity, habitat destruction, exploitation and the like.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 8, 2021 11:12:57 GMT -5
Until the ERA goes through, and women have all of the legal freedoms that men enjoy, I don't believe women should have to sign up for the draft. And speaking of the stupidity of the draft, our special needs son was required, by law, to sign up. Due to how his disability has affected him, he'd be the last person you'd want to hand a loaded gun. How do you determine person "A" should not drafted if you don't start with them registering? The standard registration form has nothing on it to flag a person who isn't appropriate to serve. There should be some sort of box to check, and then you could add, for example, a physician's statement proving that this person isn't "fit" to serve. They'd save themselves a lot of work, down the road, if they could remove people early in the process.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 8, 2021 13:28:50 GMT -5
Motherhood is voluntary (in an ideal world at least), and we haven't yet devolved into the Handmaid's Tale.
However, bodily autonomy, for everyone should be assured and the draft should be abolished. If you can't get enough citizens to volunteer for your war, maybe you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place.
On an individual level, you correct on motherhood. On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. I do agree we shouldn't draft anyone. I am looking at this as an "if ..., then ..." situation. Yeah, no. America didn't really have much support for mothers, widows, unmarried females, or orphans until the 20th century. I think this held true for most foreign countries as well. I think the big hey day of "social help" was between 1900 and 1935 in America. Before that women with a male benefactor (and some men) had to rely on the charity of others or just accept one's shitty lot in life OR accept one's fate (if bad things happened). And lots of Americans were unhappy when we did give financial supports women and children (who did not have male benefactors - if they had a male benefactor it was up to that man to provide what kind of care he could). Lots of countries today do just fine with giving women and children very little support (or legal rights). And an edit. I think the heart of the issue is - we have a societal culture where women do not have the same rights as men and are not treated equitably (or equally). Allowing women to serve in the military - either means the military jobs can be done by women (women's work) which means men in those military jobs will be demeaned (they are doing women's work and it's NOT as honorable as doing men's work). I think THAT's the issue.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 8, 2021 13:44:03 GMT -5
Until the ERA goes through, and women have all of the legal freedoms that men enjoy, I don't believe women should have to sign up for the draft. And speaking of the stupidity of the draft, our special needs son was required, by law, to sign up. Due to how his disability has affected him, he'd be the last person you'd want to hand a loaded gun. Is this a state or federal thing? I don't know anyone who has registered outside of those who have enlisted voluntarily.
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daisylu
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Post by daisylu on Jun 8, 2021 14:32:46 GMT -5
Until the ERA goes through, and women have all of the legal freedoms that men enjoy, I don't believe women should have to sign up for the draft. And speaking of the stupidity of the draft, our special needs son was required, by law, to sign up. Due to how his disability has affected him, he'd be the last person you'd want to hand a loaded gun. Is this a state or federal thing? I don't know anyone who has registered outside of those who have enlisted voluntarily. Federal, all men age 18-25. According to law, a man must register with Selective Service within 30 days of his 18th birthday. Selective Service accepts late registrations up until a man reaches his 26th birthday.
Failure to register is a felony and non-registrants may be denied the following benefits for life:
Federal (and some state) student loans and grant programs
Federal job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly Workforce Investment Act)
Federal (and many state and local) jobs
Up to a 5-year delay of U.S. citizenship proceedings for immigrants
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jun 8, 2021 15:21:35 GMT -5
People who become physicians can be drafted until age 50. Seems unfair for male physicians, don't you think?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 15:57:32 GMT -5
How do you determine person "A" should not drafted if you don't start with them registering? The standard registration form has nothing on it to flag a person who isn't appropriate to serve. There should be some sort of box to check, and then you could add, for example, a physician's statement proving that this person isn't "fit" to serve. They'd save themselves a lot of work, down the road, if they could remove people early in the process. 1. The odds that guys who register will be drafted is close to zero. The odds that any one particular guy will be drafted is astronomical. 2. People lie. People falsify documents. If there were a box to check and a paper sent along, they would have to be verified. This could be done before hand on the astronomical chance that individual might be drafted at some point in the window or be archived and pulled out if necessary. Or with the system now, if by astronomical chance the person is drafted, the process of determining fitness could begin as it would for all draftees. I think the cost effective process is to wait and see.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 8, 2021 16:09:38 GMT -5
Sorry about the editing... It feels like a disconnect because if men AND women can volunteer to do military Job A. But during wartime men are required to do show up and do Job A. If women can perform military "jobs" voluntarily (just like men) when America doesn't need to require men to sign up to do those "jobs" why would women be excluded from the draft? It's not like we currently aren't at war (Afghanistan) or been participating in other wars (in the last 20 years) - and there are women in the military and I'm pretty sure some of them have been in combat situations. That's the disconnect - like the draft needs to be updated to what's currently happening. Maybe disconnect is the wrong word... (is the fear that drafting women along with men - would take away 'cushy' jobs from some of the men get drafted? kind of like how Affirmative Action keeps college educations from "some" white guys?? because the school must accept a minority and there aren't enough "seats" so some white guys don't get to go to college)? I agree there is a huge disconnect in the concept of the draft and the reality of a future war and how it would work. The reality of a large war that requires large numbers of able-bodied men (and maybe women) to March across land for combat is old school thought. New wars are fought with less manpower more equipment. You need people to move equipment, support equipment, operate equipment, repair equipment. Less infantry, more specialized fighting forces. So we still have a selective service for males, yet we haven’t had a draft in 50 years. But we still collect names, and spend money making sure everyone signs up. I’m not sure what happens if you don’t sign up, I know it can prevent college aid, not sure what else. How much money is spent collecting names and nothing else? I just think it is archaic system that needs to be done away with. You should include women if you have it, but better to just ditch the whole system. I agree with that. If we continue to have a draft, it should be applied evenly to both genders; but I don't see the need to continue with the draft at all. We've seemingly been in multiple endless wars for decades and haven't needed to call anyone up from the draft, so I struggle to think of a time when that would be necessary. It takes less manpower to pilot a drone from a control room than to fly physical planes full of gunners I suppose. If we are going to require that everyone register to serve, maybe we should just go with mandatory service, like Israel. Almost all men and women are required to serve for 2+ years. I assume there are exceptions made for caregivers, and alternating periods of service in the case of a couple with a child, so both aren't enlisted at the same time? But I don't know, I haven't researched it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 16:11:26 GMT -5
On an individual level, you correct on motherhood. On a societal level it is required for survival. That is why we have financial supports for those who have children. A draft would be meeting a societal not an individual survival requirement. Division of responsibility to society might justify not drafting women. I do agree we shouldn't draft anyone. I am looking at this as an "if ..., then ..." situation. Yeah, no. America didn't really have much support for mothers, widows, unmarried females, or orphans until the 20th century. I think this held true for most foreign countries as well. I think the big hey day of "social help" was between 1900 and 1935 in America. Before that women with a male benefactor (and some men) had to rely on the charity of others or just accept one's shitty lot in life OR accept one's fate (if bad things happened). And lots of Americans were unhappy when we did give financial supports women and children (who did not have male benefactors - if they had a male benefactor it was up to that man to provide what kind of care he could). Lots of countries today do just fine with giving women and children very little support (or legal rights). And an edit. I think the heart of the issue is - we have a societal culture where women do not have the same rights as men and are not treated equitably (or equally). Allowing women to serve in the military - either means the military jobs can be done by women (women's work) which means men in those military jobs will be demeaned (they are doing women's work and it's NOT as honorable as doing men's work). I think THAT's the issue. Hmmm. The IRS on Monday announced it has started sending letters to more than 36 million American families who may be eligible for the expanded child tax credit and monthly payments set to begin in July.
The maximum enhanced credit, which was established by the American Rescue Plan in March, is $3,600 for children younger than age 6 and $3,000 for those between 6 and 17 for 2021.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 8, 2021 16:39:03 GMT -5
I agree there is a huge disconnect in the concept of the draft and the reality of a future war and how it would work. The reality of a large war that requires large numbers of able-bodied men (and maybe women) to March across land for combat is old school thought. New wars are fought with less manpower more equipment. You need people to move equipment, support equipment, operate equipment, repair equipment. Less infantry, more specialized fighting forces. So we still have a selective service for males, yet we haven’t had a draft in 50 years. But we still collect names, and spend money making sure everyone signs up. I’m not sure what happens if you don’t sign up, I know it can prevent college aid, not sure what else. How much money is spent collecting names and nothing else? I just think it is archaic system that needs to be done away with. You should include women if you have it, but better to just ditch the whole system. I agree with that. If we continue to have a draft, it should be applied evenly to both genders; but I don't see the need to continue with the draft at all. We've seemingly been in multiple endless wars for decades and haven't needed to call anyone up from the draft, so I struggle to think of a time when that would be necessary. It takes less manpower to pilot a drone from a control room than to fly physical planes full of gunners I suppose. If we are going to require that everyone register to serve, maybe we should just go with mandatory service, like Israel. Almost all men and women are required to serve for 2+ years. I assume there are exceptions made for caregivers, and alternating periods of service in the case of a couple with a child, so both aren't enlisted at the same time? But I don't know, I haven't researched it. Mandatory service numbers: Current number of people on uniform: 1.3M linkBirths in 2000: 4,058,814 Births in 2001: 4,025,933 linkSay only half of those born each year do mandatory 2 years service so in any give year you would add 4M to the 1.3M currently serving - plus staff to train and provide other supports. You want to pay the taxes for that military? I don't.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Jun 8, 2021 16:46:19 GMT -5
I agree with that. If we continue to have a draft, it should be applied evenly to both genders; but I don't see the need to continue with the draft at all. We've seemingly been in multiple endless wars for decades and haven't needed to call anyone up from the draft, so I struggle to think of a time when that would be necessary. It takes less manpower to pilot a drone from a control room than to fly physical planes full of gunners I suppose. If we are going to require that everyone register to serve, maybe we should just go with mandatory service, like Israel. Almost all men and women are required to serve for 2+ years. I assume there are exceptions made for caregivers, and alternating periods of service in the case of a couple with a child, so both aren't enlisted at the same time? But I don't know, I haven't researched it. Mandatory service numbers: Current number of people on uniform: 1.3M linkBirths in 2000: 4,058,814 Births in 2001: 4,025,933 linkSay only half of those those born each year do mandatory 2 years service so in any give year you would add 4M to the 1.3M currently serving - plus staff to train and provide other supports. You want to pay the taxes for that military? I don't. I don’t want to pay taxes for at least 60% of the military budget we have now!
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