Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 4, 2021 16:53:42 GMT -5
No..... is it a Capitol offense?
Has anyone been executed for this?
If she had charged in with a gun and was a threat to life....... then shoot her for sure
but she wasn't ... and thats the point.
I'm not saying it wasn't a terrifying and disgusting incident btw
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 4, 2021 16:58:11 GMT -5
I'm not generally in favor of the police using deadly force, of course. And while I would possibly agree that if there was just one person who broke into the Capitol that day, shooting them MIGHT have been an overreaction (depending on other factors), that is NOT the situation they were faced with at all. If they just let her climb on through, what happens with the giant, angry, screaming mob behind her? Are they going to think "well, they told her not to come through but when she did there were no negative consequences....but still, to be safe I better stay out here"? No, they are going to pour in behind her with their frothing mouths and stated intent of violence.
Anyway....a few comments from the linked story that I found appropriate...
You attack the seat of government like it's a war, don't cry when you lose.
I still laugh my ass off at ALL of those fake-ass tough-guys hiding behind the skirt of this woman that day.
She died how she would've wanted. For a man who would only see her as a "2".
If that was not the appropriate moment for a Capitol Police officer to use his firearm, there will never be one.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 4, 2021 17:32:51 GMT -5
They have a point ......... breaking and entering and protesting are not death penalty offences. She wasn't armed and dangerous or about to kill someone ....so being shot dead would seem excessive.
Did they not have tasers?This is the point that Black people have been trying to make *forever*, so why would it be different here? Not trying to derail this into a racial debate. Just making a point. She chose to effectively declare war against the government, along with all the other insurrectionists. She paid the price.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2021 17:38:30 GMT -5
No..... is it a Capitol offense? Has anyone been executed for this? If she had charged in with a gun and was a threat to life....... then shoot her for sure but she wasn't ... and thats the point. I'm not saying it wasn't a terrifying and disgusting incident btw pawns rarely win the game in chess, but they are part of the overall strategy that leads to victory.
the Castle Doctrine comes from "a man's home is his Castle". it basically states that an intruder is considered a threat to livelihood and can be killed because of it. may states use this as a standard. i am kinda surprised you have never heard of this. it is a very "red state" thing.
basically, if you invade my house, it doesn't matter if you actually ARE a threat. you are on my property, and therefore, i consider you a threat. i can use lethal force to subdue you. that is what the CD says.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2021 17:39:52 GMT -5
They have a point ......... breaking and entering and protesting are not death penalty offences. She wasn't armed and dangerous or about to kill someone ....so being shot dead would seem excessive.
Did they not have tasers?This is the point that Black people have been trying to make *forever*, so why would it be different here? Not trying to derail this into a racial debate. Just making a point. She chose to effectively declare war against the government, along with all the other insurrectionists. She paid the price. i was going to bring up Tamir Rice again, but exhaustion gets the best of me in some of these discussions. thanks for "going there".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 4, 2021 18:45:50 GMT -5
They have a point ......... breaking and entering and protesting are not death penalty offences. She wasn't armed and dangerous or about to kill someone ....so being shot dead would seem excessive. Did they not have tasers? I wonder- would anyone use a taser in this circumstances? 1) Some protestors were carrying guns, maybe she wasn't - but there is sufficient reason to believe that mob was armed 2) There were hundred (if not thousands) of people behind her yelling the same thing she was, breaking the glass and helping her through. Any number of them could have been the first one, or the next one through the window. 3) The first line of defense had been totally overwhelmed, so it was sort of that one guy holding back that whole mob or else they would reach congresspeople. And they were threatening violence. As I understand Tasers, you can't use them serially. You tase one person, but you have to go through a lot to then tase the next guy - I think. In that scenario, knowing there multiple people breaking the glass to come through, it seems like you would have to be ready to disable anywhere between 1 and 800 people. Tasing one person probably wouldn't make everyone else run away, because tasers aren't a big enough threat, and someone standing there probably knows that the taser leads were stuck in the first person, and therefore the guy was out of tase power. However, that room cleared out when they found out that guy is willing to shoot real bullets. And they knew he probably had multiple shots before he would have to reload. Anyone an LEO that can confirm if taser would have been useful or appropriate in that particular situation?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 4, 2021 18:46:57 GMT -5
No..... is it a Capitol offense? Has anyone been executed for this? If she had charged in with a gun and was a threat to life....... then shoot her for sure but she wasn't ... and thats the point. I'm not saying it wasn't a terrifying and disgusting incident btw If she'd been climbing through the White House window she would have been dead even faster due to the threat to the president. Why should Congress be different? It's interesting when it's a white person people ask why didn't the police restrain themselves. When it's a person of color people rationalize why they deserved to die.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 4, 2021 21:14:04 GMT -5
NomoreDramaQ1015 - that's basically what I was trying to say, but you said it better.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2021 22:57:32 GMT -5
NomoreDramaQ1015 - that's basically what I was trying to say, but you said it better. I thought you said it just fine, moon.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 5, 2021 6:52:39 GMT -5
What seems to be forgotten by the people making the argument that Ashli was unarmed and merely strolling through the building is the reason she was there at all - to subvert the installation of a democratically elected president.
To claim otherwise would be like saying the Boston tea party attendees were merely vandalizing a shipment of tea.
In fact the Clown of the House (Marjorie Greene) crowed about how this was a 1776 moment. It almost was.
Ashli and her friends were assaulting the county, not grabbing potato chips from a 7-11. If she didn’t understand the gravity of her choice she should have.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 5, 2021 8:05:34 GMT -5
They are also forgetting she was part of a mob chanting about killing Nancy pelosi, AOC and mike pence. There was a full blue rot outside with officers getting beat with whatever the crowd could get their hands on.
I can see why they are assuming her intentions were not all sunshine and roses.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 5, 2021 10:03:04 GMT -5
If we're going to be upset at any policeman's actions let's be pissed about the ones busy taking selfies with the rioters. This man did his job, he protected our elected officials from a mob that was out for blood. I don't want to even consider what they would have done if they got them. They built freaking gallows outside for pete's sake. Honestly the January 6th riot is one of the few times I feel like MORE of them should have been dead. It absolutely stuns me that people got so far into the building they could put their feet on Pelosi's chair and take pictures of stuff in their offices. They should have been blown away just like if they stormed the White House. But if you're black and get shot while pulled over? Well that's what you get for not respecting the popo. How were they supposed to know you were reaching for your driver's license and not a gun? Everyone is taught how to behave when interacting with the cops, clearly he didn't listen. It's tragic he's dead but let this be a lesson to everyone about how to behave with the cops. White woman who is part of a mob that for the past several hours has been chanting about hanging the VP? Well clearly she's climbing in the window for tea and cookies! Here let me have a polite conversation with you and make sure I do my absolute best to use non lethal force.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 5, 2021 10:04:39 GMT -5
While I was watching the riot happen I kept saying to myself that if the crowd were black, they’d be dead.
ETA: I supporting their right to protest (even though I think they are stupid and misguided) until they started to break down the barriers around the capital. At that point, the tear gas and rubber bullets should have come out. Once they breached the building, the real bullets should have started.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 5, 2021 10:06:49 GMT -5
While I was watching the riot happen I kept saying to myself that if the crowd were black, they’d be dead. DH and I said the same thing. I said that was the biggest display of white rage/privilege I have ever seen in my life and hope to never see it again.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 5, 2021 10:12:15 GMT -5
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on May 5, 2021 10:39:20 GMT -5
While I was watching the riot happen I kept saying to myself that if the crowd were black, they’d be dead. ETA: I supporting their right to protest (even though I think they are stupid and misguided) until they started to break down the barriers around the capital. At that point, the tear gas and rubber bullets should have come out. Once they breached the building, the real bullets should have started. As I was watching that - I was where are the lines of Riot Police? Where's the tear gas? Where's the fire hoses? Where are the guns with Rubber Bullets? That looked like NO "protest" I have ever seen or been to - and I've been to truly peaceful protests where the riot police (mounted police, police paddy wagons, and general "we're gonna arrest people and it won't be "polite" either) were out in force - because of what was being protested and the estimated size of the protesters. And the protesters were majority white - and we were protesting an unpopular GOP backed war. Heck, I've seen more security and riot police and more preparedness by local government/police for the upcoming "celebrations" after a major sport team wins the championship than I saw at the Capitol. And the scariest thing was even WE (on this board) all knew something was going to happen. we were talking about it and probably watching for it to happen. I got up that morning and tuned in to see what was going to happen and how it would be handled. I am totally on the side of the people who were protecting the Capitol. They all got screwed over by their upper management/leaders. They got thrown under the bus - they got left out to dry. I think the policeman had every right to shot. It must have been terrifying to be in the Capitol to have to choose between "do my duty to protect" or "stand down because we are under prepared for this". I have no idea how the Capitol was NOT prepared for this. Like I said - I've seen tons more preparation of the scary kind - riot police, mounted police, paddy wagons waiting for arrests -- for a protest consisting of mostly Suburban women and old folks (protesting war) than I saw queued up and ready to handle the "protest" outside the Capitol. Again... who knew security was so lax at the Capitol...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on May 5, 2021 10:47:48 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this lawsuit might bring out the details of WHY there was so little security that day at the Capitol. Were the Capitol police told to not "use force" against the protestors? And who gave the order for that? What were the Capitol police told about how their day might go? I would imagine there was some briefing and planning. I doubt they all went into this with a "just another day" at the office frame of mind. A lot was going on that day - that was known ahead of time. Believe me - I still wonder where were all the typical riot police/security for this "protest"
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 5, 2021 10:50:04 GMT -5
The "What's on Netflix tonight" reaction of the general population is what really concerns me.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 5, 2021 10:53:48 GMT -5
As an aside,.....Do you have some sort of "use of reasonable force" edict?
Seems to be few occurrences where a response has been disproportionate.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2021 16:53:22 GMT -5
As an aside,.....Do you have some sort of "use of reasonable force" edict? Seems to be few occurrences where a response has been disproportionate. armed insurrection? machine guns. mow them down.
unarmed, permitted, civil protest? no weapons at all.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 5, 2021 19:24:51 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this lawsuit might bring out the details of WHY there was so little security that day at the Capitol. Were the Capitol police told to not "use force" against the protestors? And who gave the order for that? What were the Capitol police told about how their day might go? I would imagine there was some briefing and planning. I doubt they all went into this with a "just another day" at the office frame of mind. A lot was going on that day - that was known ahead of time. Believe me - I still wonder where were all the typical riot police/security for this "protest" Yes they were told not to use maximum force. Hopefully who said that will come out in the investigation and suitable punishment is heaped on him/her.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 6, 2021 7:45:47 GMT -5
They have a point ......... breaking and entering and protesting are not death penalty offences. She wasn't armed and dangerous or about to kill someone ....so being shot dead would seem excessive. Did they not have tasers? From what I've seen on the argument with this, killing unarmed protesters is ok, depending on political position. No it’s not. You obviously didn’t read the thread, or are just being dumb. Killing unarmed protesters is never ok. If shouts were fired down at the White House, I’d be calling Green for the prosecution of the cops. Shooting someone who is in the midst of storming the capital abs was part of a violent mob who cause injury to the officers is expected.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 6, 2021 8:30:03 GMT -5
No it’s not. You obviously didn’t read the thread, or are just being dumb. Killing unarmed protesters is never ok. If shouts were fired down at the White House, I’d be calling Green for the prosecution of the cops. Shooting someone who is in the midst of storming the capital abs was part of a violent mob who cause injury to the officers is expected. I was obviously rebutting spells post. It was an unarmed woman crawling through a broken window. What could she possibly do to a police officer with taser and gun and billy club ? It was one of many persons involved in a violent invasion of the US Capital.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 6, 2021 9:01:02 GMT -5
From what I've seen on the argument with this, killing unarmed protesters is ok, depending on political position. No it’s not. You obviously didn’t read the thread, or are just being dumb. Killing unarmed protesters is never ok. If shouts were fired down at the White House, I’d be calling Green for the prosecution of the cops. Shooting someone who is in the midst of storming the capital abs was part of a violent mob who cause injury to the officers is expected. I vote that. He is being willfully obtuse, part of his act.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 6, 2021 9:31:30 GMT -5
It was one of many persons involved in a violent invasion of the US Capital. At that point it was one unarmed woman crawling through one broken window. Ok to kill ? It was one of many persons involved in a violent invasion of the US Capital.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 6, 2021 9:46:17 GMT -5
Breaking windows is a violent act. I would expect anyone doing a B&E to high-level government property to get shot. I'm really surprised more people there were not shot. It is not a good look for our government that this circus was allowed to happen in the first place. It makes us look weak.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 6, 2021 9:53:17 GMT -5
It was one of many persons involved in a violent invasion of the US Capital. At that point it was one unarmed woman crawling through one broken window. Ok to kill ? Reality:
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 6, 2021 9:55:13 GMT -5
Breaking windows is a violent act. I would expect anyone doing a B&E to high-level government property to get shot. I'm really surprised more people there were not shot. It is not a good look for our government that this circus was allowed to happen in the first place. It makes us look weak. Yet the same posters wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone breaking into their house.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 6, 2021 10:13:18 GMT -5
Breaking windows is a violent act. I would expect anyone doing a B&E to high-level government property to get shot. I'm really surprised more people there were not shot. It is not a good look for our government that this circus was allowed to happen in the first place. It makes us look weak. Yet the same posters wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone breaking into their house. Exactly. Nevermind the fact that attacking the very seat of power is an act of war, in which defense/casualties would be expected.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 6, 2021 11:30:23 GMT -5
It was one of many persons involved in a violent invasion of the US Capital. At that point it was one unarmed woman crawling through one broken window. Ok to kill ? Just her alone? Shooting her is probably excessive. Shooting her as part of the mob chanting hang mike peace that was breaking in and already hurt officers? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Frankly if she came to my house at chanting she was going to kill someone at my house and broke in through a window I would have shot her too.
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