thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 0:21:59 GMT -5
Today at the grocery store, I bought a jicama. The cashier said "I learned this one - it is a jicama! In my country it is called {{some word I didn't hear, and I can't remember}}". She said "When I came here, I had to ask what it is called in English."
I said "I wonder if it has a true English name, jicima is...." at this point my mouth was forming the word Mexican, because I was thinking that was the origin of the vegetable (which come to think of it, it may not be originally Mexican.) I was able to stop myself and change to Spanish referring to the etymology of the word.
However, this brain fart is the exact type of thing where I say inappropriate things - sometimes racist, sometimes stupid, sometimes rude.
Do you do this kind of dumb ass stuff? Do you have any funny stories about it? Tell us!
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 8, 2021 6:38:57 GMT -5
Many years ago, I told a boyfriend--a Black man--you're just a dark-skinned white guy, thinking I was paying him a compliment. It took about a week for me to realize that it was NOT, in fact, a compliment. I apologized profusely. More and more, I find words and phrases that I WON'T say because of their origins. Things like "long time, no see" or "tar and feathered". That may not be the direction you're going here but I thought I'd share anyway.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 8, 2021 6:52:39 GMT -5
So. Of course, (classical) music is still very much a middle class/upper middle class/wealthy endeavor. As part of teacher training, folks with means, well, are the mentors training the teachers. So, we are taught pithy things like telling the kids "Practice every day that ends in 'y'" or "Practice every day that you brush your teeth." Which doesn't work when you teach a population that can't read (well), and likely does not have a toothbrush in the house. Thankfully, I stopped myself before saying "Practice every day that ends in "y", but not before the teeth brushing.
That was a super humbling experience. And I am much more direct/careful in what I say. I also worked with the Hispanic and Latino populations when I taught. I learned real quick not to lump both backgrounds together. (That particular mentor talked to me about that once..as I had no idea).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2021 7:25:43 GMT -5
I said a word my dad says regularly having no idea it was a racist term because I had never heard it in context. Whoops. I dropped that term from my vocabulary.
It's a part of society it's invisibly and visibly blended into the fabric of our lives from day one. My goal is to eventually stop saying stupid shit but that is a lofty goal. The bigger goal for me is to be aware of when I say stupid shit, allow myself to be called out (whether it's by my inner voice or by someone else), accept I was wrong and educate myself to not do it again.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 8, 2021 8:03:59 GMT -5
I get caught on phrases I never knew the origins of. Note I don't know what's wrong with long time no see. And a bunch of things I don't mean anything by but people have had bad experiences with. My new job is extremely progressive and gives ongoing training on this stuff, which I'm all for. Anyway, last week I learned not to ask people I don't know well where they are from. (I tend to do that when they have accents) It implies that people are not Canadian. Not even remotely what I mean when I ask but apparently it's how it gets taken.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 8:56:04 GMT -5
More and more, I find words and phrases that I WON'T say because of their origins. Things like "long time, no see" or "tar and feathered". What is the problem with tar & feathered? I mean - clearly not a kind concept, but I didn't know a racist bent?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2021 9:07:13 GMT -5
I get caught on phrases I never knew the origins of. Note I don't know what's wrong with long time no see. And a bunch of things I don't mean anything by but people have had bad experiences with. My new job is extremely progressive and gives ongoing training on this stuff, which I'm all for. Anyway, last week I learned not to ask people I don't know well where they are from. (I tend to do that when they have accents) It implies that people are not Canadian. Not even remotely what I mean when I ask but apparently it's how it gets taken. With you on the "long time no see". Found this: Who First Said 'Long Time, No See' And In Which Language?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Apr 8, 2021 9:32:21 GMT -5
The one I talk about the most I've probably already shared here.
After living in the (very white) north part of the greater Phoenix area I saw a Black man in our local market. He was the first Black man I had seen in the market after six years of living in our small town. I caught myself staring and wanting to go up and greet him by saying "Welcome to the neighborhood". I didn't and reflected how odd and akward that would have been. But staring was probably mis-interpreded as well. And I wasn't the only one!
I recently had another unintended "step in it" experience here in the SF Bay Area. I regularly walk in our local County park. Over the years I've become friendly with a man who is a full blood Piute. He's an interesting guy, very active in his culture but is also gay with a white partner. He's very proud to be an elder with his tribe and we've had many wonderful conversations about Native American culture. He is a Luddite though and the younger members of the Tribe tease him. One asked him how he can communicate with others because he doesn't even use a computer. I responded "Did you tell him smoke signals?" He looked at me and said "That's kind of racist". I said it wasn't meant that way and we laughed it off but it bothered me a bit. It was a couple of weeks before I saw him again and said "I hope you understand I wasn't meaning to offend. Many cultures used smoke as a way of communicating. I meant it in terms of a simple way of communicating vs the highly techincal and complex way of communicating via computer." He said, "No, I know you but if you said it in mixed company <meaning with other Native Americans> I would have harkened back to my old activist days and called you out".
We then talked about the current situation whereby people looking at things through a certain lens and how it's easy to get offended if you're looking for it.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Apr 8, 2021 9:35:48 GMT -5
Nobody's perfect, and I think it's great that you acknowledge, care, and try to do better in the future. What more can you ask for?
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Apr 8, 2021 9:38:05 GMT -5
I only ever have had jicama served as Jicama by my Mexican relatives with lime and salt. What is the English name for it? I don't think my husband would take kindly to describing it as "Spanish" instead - I think he would take that as an insult too...but I get your larger point. I read the piece on Long time, no see. I don't see anywhere that they are saying it should not be used as a greeting. I am definately the kind of person that tends to "Open mouth, insert foot", realizing after the fact that I should not have phrased something quite that way.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Apr 8, 2021 9:46:10 GMT -5
I went to cheer up my terminally ill friend, who was having a rough time, by asking him if he wanted to go fishing.... He was delighted. Then in a moment of absolute stupidity ........As I was leaving I said "I'll get you a licence ...... do you want the full year, or just six months"....... ooops
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 8, 2021 9:55:11 GMT -5
I lived in Liberia during Tolbert time which basically means that I can't talk about that time at all.
I'm not Liberian-American and I haven't kept in touch with my school pals, so I don't know the correct replacements for the words that we used. I just know better than to use those words in the US.
Then there's the colonialism. Lots of pitfalls there too.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 12:51:06 GMT -5
I only ever have had jicama served as Jicama by my Mexican relatives with lime and salt. What is the English name for it? I don't think my husband would take kindly to describing it as "Spanish" instead - I think he would take that as an insult too...but I get your larger point. I read the piece on Long time, no see. I don't see anywhere that they are saying it should not be used as a greeting. I am definately the kind of person that tends to "Open mouth, insert foot", realizing after the fact that I should not have phrased something quite that way. Spanish language, Mexican item. Hmmmm. Depending on context, if you asked me what the word is "in American" I may think you are kinda dumb. But, I used to work with a lot of Europeans, and we would compare slang and idioms and refer to them as "American" or "British" - so maybe that is the same thing. I actually think I said "Spanish of some sort" maybe that is even worse? So many landmines, which one will kill me?
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Apr 8, 2021 12:57:29 GMT -5
Not racial, but I was recently told by one of my video game acquaintances that another member was transitioning to male and now prefers male pronouns.
Shortly after that, my husband joined our voice/chat server and the two of them started making some suggestive comments about him. My instant response was "Sorry ladies, he's already taken." It was like the next day that I remembered about the gender change.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 8, 2021 14:07:24 GMT -5
Such a sad story! And it's so weird that you could have called them "b^^^^es" instead of "ladies" and it might have been perfect.
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engineerdoe
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Post by engineerdoe on Apr 8, 2021 14:11:58 GMT -5
I only ever have had jicama served as Jicama by my Mexican relatives with lime and salt. What is the English name for it? I don't think my husband would take kindly to describing it as "Spanish" instead - I think he would take that as an insult too...but I get your larger point. I read the piece on Long time, no see. I don't see anywhere that they are saying it should not be used as a greeting. I am definately the kind of person that tends to "Open mouth, insert foot", realizing after the fact that I should not have phrased something quite that way. Spanish language, Mexican item. Hmmmm. Depending on context, if you asked me what the word is "in American" I may think you are kinda dumb. But, I used to work with a lot of Europeans, and we would compare slang and idioms and refer to them as "American" or "British" - so maybe that is the same thing. I actually think I said "Spanish of some sort" maybe that is even worse? So many landmines, which one will kill me? I had to see what the origin of Jicama was and it seems the spelling and pronunciation we currently use is Spanish but it is also very close to the original native mexican language. Sadly, the american name would be : yam bean. (stoopid americans ruining everything) ((I am american)) Also never knew that jicama plants have both beans and the root as edible! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhizus_erosus
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 14:45:36 GMT -5
Not racial, but I was recently told by one of my video game acquaintances that another member was transitioning to male and now prefers male pronouns. Shortly after that, my husband joined our voice/chat server and the two of them started making some suggestive comments about him. My instant response was "Sorry ladies, he's already taken." It was like the next day that I remembered about the gender change. Well, maybe you just meant "for those of you who are in the conversation that are ladies, he's taken" instead of "everyone here is a lady, and he is taken" or something like that. But, alas, we don't get to amend or footnote the things that come out of our mouths.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Apr 8, 2021 16:12:29 GMT -5
Spanish language, Mexican item. Hmmmm. Depending on context, if you asked me what the word is "in American" I may think you are kinda dumb. But, I used to work with a lot of Europeans, and we would compare slang and idioms and refer to them as "American" or "British" - so maybe that is the same thing. I actually think I said "Spanish of some sort" maybe that is even worse? So many landmines, which one will kill me? I had to see what the origin of Jicama was and it seems the spelling and pronunciation we currently use is Spanish but it is also very close to the original native mexican language. Sadly, the american name would be : yam bean. (stoopid americans ruining everything) ((I am american)) Also never knew that jicama plants have both beans and the root as edible! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhizus_erosusI thought it was a Turnip but I was not sure. your link says it is related to the turnip - they call it a Mexican Turnip.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 17:13:00 GMT -5
I have "liked" every comment here because it's important to have this conversation and I've learned a lot. On the jicama thing, that's the name it's sold under at my local Hispanic groceries. It's a really great veggie but a PITA to peel. My take-away from all this is that we are listening to other folks and sensitive to how the words from our mouths and keyboards come across on their ears and keyboards. As long as we are talking honestly, there is hope for a better future.
Personally, I'm uncertain on the appropriate gender and sexual identity pronouns. I have acquaintances and friends across the complex spectrum of sexuality, and some I have no clue what their gender identity is. I don't much care; I do care about the work they are doing in my community on voter education and engagement. Honesty, empathy and activism mean a whole lot more to me than what box you check on a form and what form your sexual desire embraces. Technically I am old, white, 1/2 Hispanic and hetero. But that only a small part of who I am; the total me will only be discovered by those who get to know me.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 8, 2021 17:14:15 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2021 18:33:59 GMT -5
I selected the older article to link because I thought it provided a good discussion of the origin of the phrase without the influence of the current climate of sensitivity. Based on it, I don't see it as historically inappropriate. However I will likely not use it because it is easy enough to express the sentiment without those specific words.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 8, 2021 18:53:30 GMT -5
I selected the older article to link because I thought it provided a good discussion of the origin of the phrase without the influence of the current climate of sensitivity. Based on it, I don't see it as historically inappropriate. However I will likely not use it because it is easy enough to express the sentiment without those specific words. I can see that point. This article, though, is one that lead me to not using the phrase.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Apr 8, 2021 18:57:04 GMT -5
I didn't see long time no see mentioned in this article. Did I miss it?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 8, 2021 19:10:51 GMT -5
Why should I stop using "long time, no see" just because some racist assholes (or their editor/publishers) used it to poke fun at anyone below them in the 19th century?
The words and the order of them might sound pidgin or ignorant to someone who speaks standard English but if you try to say the same thing in ASL you'll land up saying something that translates back into something very similar to "long time, no see." There's a universal grammar behind much of our language and if you attempt to learn a second language as an adult, there's a good chance that you'll land up saying things very similar to "long time, no see" with utter sincerity and a profound hope that your meaning gets across even though you know that you sound like an idiot.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 8, 2021 19:23:36 GMT -5
It doesn't end with what is or is not (perceived to be) racist in our language though. It is becoming very complicated, very fast when other situations/groups are taken into account. I read this article today about how discriminatory ableist and hurtful language can be. Turning a blind eye, falling on deaf ears, etc. all no-nos. I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by being stupid but I am now sure that I probably done so more than once in the past. www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210330-the-harmful-ableist-language-you-unknowingly-use"...This kind of ‘ableist’ language is omnipresent in conversation: making a “dumb” choice, turning a “blind eye” to a problem, acting “crazy”, calling a boss “psychopathic”, having a “bipolar” day. And, for the most part, people who utter these phrases aren’t intending to hurt anyone – more commonly, they don’t have any idea they’re engaging in anything hurtful at all. However, for disabled people like me, these common words can be micro-assaults..."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2021 20:12:58 GMT -5
It doesn't end with what is or is not (perceived to be) racist in our language though. It is becoming very complicated, very fast when other situations/groups are taken into account. I read this article today about how discriminatory ableist and hurtful language can be. Turning a blind eye, falling on deaf ears, etc. all no-nos. I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by being stupid but I am now sure that I probably done so more than once in the past. www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210330-the-harmful-ableist-language-you-unknowingly-use"...This kind of ‘ableist’ language is omnipresent in conversation: making a “dumb” choice, turning a “blind eye” to a problem, acting “crazy”, calling a boss “psychopathic”, having a “bipolar” day. And, for the most part, people who utter these phrases aren’t intending to hurt anyone – more commonly, they don’t have any idea they’re engaging in anything hurtful at all. However, for disabled people like me, these common words can be micro-assaults..." From the link: Often avoiding ableist euphemisms just means choosing more straightforward and literal language – rather than “fall on deaf ears”, one might say “ignoring” or “choosing not to engage”. It might be more fun to say, "long time no see" but more appropriate to say, "It has been what feels to me to have been a long time since I have noted your presence visually."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2021 21:40:05 GMT -5
They talk about The Masters golf tournament in the article. It is a by invitation only tournament at which those who have displayed mastery of the game play. I could support moving the tournament to a different course based on the history of Augusta, but think we should retain the naming of humans who master something Masters.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 23:01:28 GMT -5
There is a reality that language changes and only takes on the meaning that we all agree on. I am still not sure on how "long time no see" is offensive. It is a translation from either one of two marginalized groups, and no one really knows. Unless a critical mass can make the association, it isn't offending people. We translate and borrow a lot of phrases from other cultures.
I can get on board with stopping 'blacklist' and the master-slave when talking about code or machinery, but is having a "mastery of a skill" really rankling people? Did the word "master" exist before slavery? I know that "dumb" used to mean mute, but now it is synonymous with "low intelligence". Most people don't associate the word with hearing and speech disabilities.
I am accepting that 'literally' now means ' figuratively', so maybe someone can avoid going out of their way to research phrases to start being offended by.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 8, 2021 23:07:59 GMT -5
I had to see what the origin of Jicama was and it seems the spelling and pronunciation we currently use is Spanish but it is also very close to the original native mexican language. Sadly, the american name would be : yam bean. (stoopid americans ruining everything) ((I am american)) Also never knew that jicama plants have both beans and the root as edible! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhizus_erosusI thought it was a Turnip but I was not sure. your link says it is related to the turnip - they call it a Mexican Turnip. Related, but not the same. It is kinda like kohlrabi. Same deal, root vegetable, related, but still has its own identity. There are many colors in the blue family, but if you are looking for a specific shade or tone, it is nice that they have specific names.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 9, 2021 0:08:54 GMT -5
Mid-January, I was in a class via Zoom.
You know how on here when someone writes a phrase or sentence one way and another poster will quote it, strike through a portion, and retype it a different way that (usually) alters the meaning to what the subsequent poster wants to say, and then the subsequent poster says “fixed”?
Well, I did that in the Zoom chat. And a third person announced that I was being racist because the person I did it to is black. Since I’m who’re, I was squashing that person’s voice. When I pointed out that, while what I did may have been uncouth, possibly unprofessional, I’d have done it to regardless of the color of the person’s skin, I was told I wasn’t listening.
This is called white fragility. I (the white person) got offended when I was called out in my behavior toward a POC. I do acknowledge that white fragility exists. I’m just still not sure how I was being racist when it was a behavior choice I made regardless of who actually said it.
I’m—as you all know—a super over sensitive person. We’re three months out from that scenario, and I’m still confused and hurt about it.
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