minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 3, 2021 14:37:54 GMT -5
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 3, 2021 15:03:52 GMT -5
How much of your bill is Kw only? When I was out here during my medical nightmare, the only thing that I kept plugged in was my fridge and water heater. I also kep my apartment heat and a/c at the min/max it could be to maintain. It was then that I started looking at the base fee I paid before Kw hours were added. I probably paid $500 in fees/year only. The amount I paid for those few things still using power only amounted to another $10-20/mo. Those fees don’t go away, just because you are not using electricity.....the cost just becomes a much larger proportion of your bill.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 3, 2021 15:18:57 GMT -5
How much of your bill is Kw only? What they have in the chart was calculated from my last year's electric bills and is about right from what I can see. There is a $1.41/day charge for basic service, so about $44/month. Last month in addition to that the kWH was $128 and there was $12 in state tax that I would assume I wouldn't be paying. So about $140. But Feb is one of the sort of higher months.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 3, 2021 15:22:04 GMT -5
I think it probably comes down to just swapping one payment for another. If I could get that damn tax credit it would be a lot more attractive.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Mar 3, 2021 16:24:25 GMT -5
MPL, I think Moxie’s calculations might be a little foxy. Near as I can figure from Moxie’s information, the system that they are proposing can generate 1,001 kWh of electricity per month at peak, new system performance. According to your bill, you use more than 1,001 kWh of electricity at least four months out of the year. That means you will need to buy some electricity from the power company. Why is Moxie claiming you’ll never have to buy electricity again? Another concern I have is the amount of actual solar power you will generate compared to the ideal laboratory tested capacity of the proposed system. How much of the ideal system capacity will you lose to cloudy days, snowy days, dust and debris accumulating on the solar panels, etc. How are Moxie’s savings calculations affected by operating your solar system in the real world, rather than a lab? Then there is deterioration of the solar panel performance over time. That deterioration begins the day the panels are installed and never ends. If the panels can deliver 1,001 kWh per month when new, what can they deliver after one year, or after ten years? How has Moxie factored expected deterioration in system performance into their calculations? Moxie’s calculations claim a savings of about $1,600 per year. If you account for the time value of money on your investment of about $18,500 at Phil’s 11%, you’re giving up about $2,035 of investment income to save $1,600. And that’s under ideal conditions. Under real world conditions, I think your savings will be significantly less than $1,600 a year. My projection is that in the real world, it will cost you more than $500 a year to have solar power compared to buying your electricity from the power company.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 3, 2021 17:02:36 GMT -5
He told me that I would build up credits with the electric company that would offset the higher months, but there would be no payout for excess produced, just a credit system with an annual true-up.
But just now I talked with my aunt that is also considering it due to another neighbor down the road from her getting a system a few years ago and he pays NOTHING. Not even the base service charge and gets a check every month from our electric co-op. She said it used to be an annual check, but now it's monthly. He has 30 panels though, not 24.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 3, 2021 21:33:22 GMT -5
Ours will be net metering, for 10 years dollar per dollar. Of course will build up more in the summer to apply against the winter. Here the utility will not let you generate more then 100% or some percentage.
It used to be over 30 years they are rolling this stuff back instead of making it better. And there is a certain % the govt requires utilities to do from renewable energy and this accounts for some of it.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 3, 2021 21:50:23 GMT -5
Had my meeting with Moxie solar today. 27K for a system that would provide 104% of my needs with net metering. It would all fit on my south facing garage roof. They started at 43K! Then he threw a promotional 10% discount on and gave me an additional 5% because I turned down the physical gift promotion. This got it to 37K. Which was still way over what I wanted to spend.
Finally, I'm like "what if I just pay cash?" because his numbers were with financing. Dropped another 10K They seem like a good company from what I've been reading. 5 years bumper to bumper on everything with no costs. Then 25 year manufacturer where you just pay labor after that.
I don't know. I really need siding too which is probably just as much. And a UTV would be nice. That stupid tax credit that they push that would knock another 9K off the cost is just not going to help me and they don't get that. So, it's supposed to be that you can use it for 20 years as long as the credit is still in place or something like that. I really need to research that more.
Wow, this sounds terrible all around. Please, tell us how much they are trying to charge you per kWh, or just give us the size of the system, and the total cost. Reading what you are posting here, I would run.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 3, 2021 21:52:17 GMT -5
OMG, I just saw the scans. This is horrible, do not sign anything!!! Correction: I misread the discounts. It's probably right around the national average in terms of price.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 3, 2021 22:00:16 GMT -5
We went with Power Solar. It's similar, 10% off for cash.
We have 3 days to renege if we want, but hubs wants to do it. We have to contact Duke Energy, I want to talk with them. This company is in 11 states.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 4, 2021 0:38:18 GMT -5
OMG, I just saw the scans. This is horrible, do not sign anything!!! Because of the cost? I talked to two other people with comparable set-ups and they both said they paid a similar price with a different company (Novel Solar). Not being able to get the tax credit is giving me a lot of pause though. I think if I wait a couple years until the credit expires, the costs will magically come down once they can't put that discount line on their quotes.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 4, 2021 22:59:40 GMT -5
I just talked to some people here. My ins agent is paying over $650 a month for electric and gas, he is thinking of doing it. Another 2 are paying over $500 a month. These new higher rates just hit the last 2 months.
Going to read up, generally I see this stuff ahead of time, but haven't followed the utility bills and rates for awhile. I often read the proposed state rate increases, but have been doing other things.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 5, 2021 9:54:17 GMT -5
Ok, we are not considering a battery, maybe someday but not now, it alone is $20k. We have generators and ours doesn't go out often anymore it used to.
The net metering and this may just be in Indiana, I have been digging to find out. Here you are credited with just pure electricity costs so for us Tier1, Tier2, and Tier3. I'm sure they have all raised, need to put bill beside bill.
The riders for the electric is NOT credited, if you use 2500 on electric you still pay that. But in our state I know of 3 utilities closing down in the next 2 years and Duke is going to close more. Hubs expects rates to still increase as the mandate here is 40% renewable for Duke. Once that is met then no more net metering. Originally you could do net metering for 30 years, now its 10. If you do it before the end of 2022, you also get the 26% tax credit, yes we can use it. Not sure yet if its all one year or for 5, but not beyond that. They are really trying to discourage investment in solar. Should be encouraging. With the last covid bill they changed a lot of this, it was just in December so all has not been disseminated yet.
What they are offering MPL seems to be pretty much the same for all of them. Guess we will find out. We use 2500 to 2900 kwh, so high users.
Our bills went from $220 to $260 to $360, then $330. They came out and changed our meter last month. Said we had a low battery, guess that is for the reading?? We wonder if something is wrong with it. So will see what happens this time.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 5, 2021 10:02:33 GMT -5
Here is my big concern, this is coal country and they are closing down our big power plant close by in 2023. I expect before. I know of 3 being closed down in Indiana and expect more as we are way above average for coal fired. But building them only one I know of with gasification and coal, they had a $2 billion dollar cost overrun, I think that is what they are passing along to consumers. Have to dig deeper and read more to find out. If they build more of these I'm guessing they will be the same. Nobody around here has solar, I'm afraid disgruntled miners and power house workers may shot out our panels. They will be in our circle drive, I wanted them at the back of the lot. Hubs said he never thought of that. These people are mad and I can't say I blame them, but we can't change it. So I'm getting insurance if we can.
Over the next 20 years way more will be closed down. The utility near us owns thousands of acres out here, wouldn't surprise me if they build solar farms all around here as they have all the transmission lines.
It's the future, hubs later is planning adding more panels and a battery if they get less expensive. So hope we live here 10 more years I guess. Time will tell.
We are heading to town to work on MIL's stuff again, sigh. To drugstore, grocery and home. And I'm MAKING myself work on taxes today.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 10:31:56 GMT -5
OMG, I just saw the scans. This is horrible, do not sign anything!!! Because of the cost? I talked to two other people with comparable set-ups and they both said they paid a similar price with a different company (Novel Solar). Not being able to get the tax credit is giving me a lot of pause though. I think if I wait a couple years until the credit expires, the costs will magically come down once they can't put that discount line on their quotes. I have corrected my post above, I had misread the discounts. I agree with you - without the federal tax credit, it wouldn't be worth it. If you can wait until 2023, and if the tax credits really expire, I can see prices coming down. The price they are quoting you is around the national average, I think. Have you tried Tesla? About 25 - 30% lower cost than your quote there ....
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Mar 5, 2021 10:45:37 GMT -5
Ok, we are not considering a battery, maybe someday but not now, it alone is $20k.
WOW ..... our whole system 2 years ago was $20K and that included a $5K battery. The battery stores power during the day for night time usage.
We won't see an actual payback on our solar system, but hopefully will be a selling point when that time comes
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 10:48:51 GMT -5
MPL, I think Moxie’s calculations might be a little foxy. Near as I can figure from Moxie’s information, the system that they are proposing can generate 1,001 kWh of electricity per month at peak, new system performance. According to your bill, you use more than 1,001 kWh of electricity at least four months out of the year. That means you will need to buy some electricity from the power company. Why is Moxie claiming you’ll never have to buy electricity again? Another concern I have is the amount of actual solar power you will generate compared to the ideal laboratory tested capacity of the proposed system. How much of the ideal system capacity will you lose to cloudy days, snowy days, dust and debris accumulating on the solar panels, etc. How are Moxie’s savings calculations affected by operating your solar system in the real world, rather than a lab? Then there is deterioration of the solar panel performance over time. That deterioration begins the day the panels are installed and never ends. If the panels can deliver 1,001 kWh per month when new, what can they deliver after one year, or after ten years? How has Moxie factored expected deterioration in system performance into their calculations? Moxie’s calculations claim a savings of about $1,600 per year. If you account for the time value of money on your investment of about $18,500 at Phil’s 11%, you’re giving up about $2,035 of investment income to save $1,600. And that’s under ideal conditions. Under real world conditions, I think your savings will be significantly less than $1,600 a year. My projection is that in the real world, it will cost you more than $500 a year to have solar power compared to buying your electricity from the power company. Skeeter, You say you want to do the correct analysis, but I am reading between the lines of your posts that you are opposed to the solar idea, and will find the arguments against it. Maybe I am wrong? When I asked you to comment on my specific financial assumptions, you didn't respond. "Near as I can figure from Moxie’s information, the system that they are proposing can generate 1,001 kWh of electricity per month at peak, new system performance. According to your bill, you use more than 1,001 kWh of electricity at least four months out of the year. That means you will need to buy some electricity from the power company. Why is Moxie claiming you’ll never have to buy electricity again?" You keep on bringing this up. It's called net metering. If you bring the time value of money into the equation, then you'll also have to consider increases in electricity prices. Here where I live, it's been 5% annually over the 5 years. The estimated 0.5% degradation of the solar panels is rather small compared to that. "Another concern I have is the amount of actual solar power you will generate compared to the ideal laboratory tested capacity of the proposed system. How much of the ideal system capacity will you lose to cloudy days, snowy days, dust and debris accumulating on the solar panels, etc. How are Moxie’s savings calculations affected by operating your solar system in the real world, rather than a lab?" The estimate should already include specifics about the location, shading, dust, and a margin. It's not "ideal laboratory conditions" as you are saying that are typically used for the estimates. Moxie estimates a monthly production of about 960kWh for MPL (11,565 / year) for a 9.6kW system. At 10 hours of sunlight per day, a 9.6kW system would produce 2,880kWh per month under "ideal laboratory conditions". The estimate given is about 1/3 of that. Now this all being said, it will be difficult to come up with a financial justification of a $2.80/kWh system without the 26% federal tax credit, but MPL's case is special in that regard, because she won't receive the credit.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 5, 2021 11:16:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the no credit part is a tough pill to swallow and really changes things. I'm going to take time this weekend to research whether or not I can really set it aside for 20 years and use when I do eventually need it, but I worry about banking on anything that requires the government keeps backing it.
Moxie does sell Tesla stuff. Their batteries are all Tesla, not sure about the panels. I did just go to Tesla's site and the estimate I got was very similar.
12.24 kW Solar Panels $24,600 Federal Tax Credit -$6,396
Select local utility to see incentives (My co-op offers none, but holy crap, Xcel Energy which covers a lot of area around here, but not mine, gives $9200 towards the panels! Someone that could use the tax credit and was on Xcel could get this system for 9K!!
Price After Incentives $18,204 Est. 25 Year Savings $31,703
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 13:07:56 GMT -5
Yeah, the no credit part is a tough pill to swallow and really changes things. I'm going to take time this weekend to research whether or not I can really set it aside for 20 years and use when I do eventually need it, but I worry about banking on anything that requires the government keeps backing it.
Moxie does sell Tesla stuff. Their batteries are all Tesla, not sure about the panels. I did just go to Tesla's site and the estimate I got was very similar.
12.24 kW Solar Panels $24,600 Federal Tax Credit -$6,396
Select local utility to see incentives (My co-op offers none, but holy crap, Xcel Energy which covers a lot of area around here, but not mine, gives $9200 towards the panels! Someone that could use the tax credit and was on Xcel could get this system for 9K!!
Price After Incentives $18,204 Est. 25 Year Savings $31,703
There is a big difference between your Moxie bid vs Tesla. If I read your Moxie bid correctly, then they want $27,000 for a 9.6kW system. That's $2.81 per kW. Tesla is (as you said) $24,600 for a 12.24kW system, or $2.01 per kW. The Tesla price is lower by 28.5%. Heck, the Tesla price without a Federal tax credit is lower than the Moxie estimate with Federal tax credit! This is your "backdoor approach" to getting the tax credit (equivalent). BTW, you could opt for a Tesla system at 8.16kW - which would be closer to the 9.6kW of the Moxie system - and that would cost you "only" $16,400.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 13:09:14 GMT -5
Ok, we are not considering a battery, maybe someday but not now, it alone is $20k.WOW ..... our whole system 2 years ago was $20K and that included a $5K battery. The battery stores power during the day for night time usage. We won't see an actual payback on our solar system, but hopefully will be a selling point when that time comes There is a little more to it, like the solar system size, and the battery size, for example.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 5, 2021 13:25:11 GMT -5
Price After Incentives $18,204 Est. 25 Year Savings $31,703 One choice would be to keep your $18,204 and invest it at 11%/yr for 25 years, that would be about $248,000.
BTW: For those who are considering batteries, you need to purchase two of the $18,204 panel arrays - one to supply power for your daytime usage and another to power your storage batteries for your night-time usage.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 5, 2021 13:44:07 GMT -5
Price After Incentives $18,204 Est. 25 Year Savings $31,703 One choice would be to keep your $18,204 and invest it at 11%/yr for 25 years, that would be about $248,000.
BTW: For those who are considering batteries, you need to purchase two of the $18,204 panel arrays - one to supply power for your daytime usage and another to power your storage batteries for your night-time usage.
What? Neither person I spoke to said anything like that. They said the excess produced would be stored in the batteries instead of going back in the grid. In my case, since we almost never have power outages and our electric co-op has a solid one for one credit on power fed back into the grid they said a battery would be more than I'd need.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 17:13:01 GMT -5
Price After Incentives $18,204 Est. 25 Year Savings $31,703 One choice would be to keep your $18,204 and invest it at 11%/yr for 25 years, that would be about $248,000.
BTW: For those who are considering batteries, you need to purchase two of the $18,204 panel arrays - one to supply power for your daytime usage and another to power your storage batteries for your night-time usage.
There is the famous Phil script, was waiting for that. But, you can maybe do better with a lower risk? Take the $1,600 annual savings from the solar production, add an estimated electric price increase (say 5% annually, as it has been in our case for the last 5 years), and invest that at 11% for 25 years, and you'll have $272,000. Also an option. And not quite as closely tied to the stock market performance. (what I mean is that if the stock market returns only 6% over the 25% years, then your approach (lump sum investing) would yield $78,000; whereas the solar approach would give you $144,000)
At an annual 3% price increase of electricity, you would be at $230,000. And you saved the planet along the way!!
I am not sure why you would need a night and a day battery. As long as the battery is big enough for your needs, one should be sufficient. That comment of yours does not make sense to me, but maybe you can explain? EDIT: re-reading your last comment: no, MPL would not need two solar arrays. She would still be connected to the grid, and the battery is for power outage backup only. Even for an off-grid system, sizing it at twice the annual power consumption would probably be overkill, but it's not the case here anyways.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 5, 2021 19:35:41 GMT -5
I am not sure why you would need a night and a day battery. As long as the battery is big enough for your needs, one should be sufficient. That comment of yours does not make sense to me, but maybe you can explain? True, I was just emphasizing that you need almost twice as much solar area if you want enough power during the day to both run your house and store enough power for night-time.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Mar 5, 2021 21:06:21 GMT -5
Because of the cost? I talked to two other people with comparable set-ups and they both said they paid a similar price with a different company (Novel Solar). Not being able to get the tax credit is giving me a lot of pause though. I think if I wait a couple years until the credit expires, the costs will magically come down once they can't put that discount line on their quotes. I have corrected my post above, I had misread the discounts. I agree with you - without the federal tax credit, it wouldn't be worth it. If you can wait until 2023, and if the tax credits really expire, I can see prices coming down. The price they are quoting you is around the national average, I think. Have you tried Tesla? About 25 - 30% lower cost than your quote there .... The Tesla system looked pretty good. I gave them my address and they priced my house at $12k after discounts. Then they said they don't service my area, darn it.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 5, 2021 21:55:26 GMT -5
I am not sure why you would need a night and a day battery. As long as the battery is big enough for your needs, one should be sufficient. That comment of yours does not make sense to me, but maybe you can explain? True, I was just emphasizing that you need almost twice as much solar area if you want enough power during the day to both run your house and store enough power for night-time.
The quotes I had were for enough panels to provide 103% of my electrical need, not just daytime.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 5, 2021 22:20:48 GMT -5
I have corrected my post above, I had misread the discounts. I agree with you - without the federal tax credit, it wouldn't be worth it. If you can wait until 2023, and if the tax credits really expire, I can see prices coming down. The price they are quoting you is around the national average, I think. Have you tried Tesla? About 25 - 30% lower cost than your quote there .... The Tesla system looked pretty good. I gave them my address and they priced my house at $12k after discounts. Then they said they don't service my area, darn it. Crap. I didn't notice the little note on the bottom of the estimate page. They don't service my area either.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 22:26:01 GMT -5
The Tesla system looked pretty good. I gave them my address and they priced my house at $12k after discounts. Then they said they don't service my area, darn it. Crap. I didn't notice the little note on the bottom of the estimate page. They don't service my area either. Would you mind pasting a screen shot? I haven't seen that on their webpage (yet).
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 5, 2021 22:30:47 GMT -5
The Tesla system looked pretty good. I gave them my address and they priced my house at $12k after discounts. Then they said they don't service my area, darn it. Crap. I didn't notice the little note on the bottom of the estimate page. They don't service my area either. This only applies to 100% off grid systems, but then, it does get complicated. If you want to disconnect from the grid, and live in an area where there isn't all that much solar to be harvested in the winter, you'll need some big batteries. Most people use their power company as the "storage medium" through net metering, but it is something to keep in mind for sure. I just noticed that I responded to the wrong post, this was in response to Phil's last message. :-)
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 5, 2021 22:45:57 GMT -5
Crap. I didn't notice the little note on the bottom of the estimate page. They don't service my area either. Would you mind pasting a screen shot? I haven't seen that on their webpage (yet). It was just a little blurb on the bottom of the screen where you enter your address and they give the estimate.
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