Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 17, 2021 10:52:36 GMT -5
I see it as a country of entitlement. If you want something, you work for it. We have coddled people and turned them into victims. We should be empowering people to overcome hurdles. Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. Why does the goal have to be wildly wealthy? Why can’t we tell people if you bust your ass, you can dig yourself out of poverty and have a comfortable life. I’m not wildly wealthy but I live a good life
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 26, 2024 5:53:44 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2021 10:58:45 GMT -5
Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. Why does the goal have to be wildly wealthy? Why can’t we tell people if you bust your ass, you can dig yourself out of poverty and have a comfortable life. I’m not wildly wealthy but I live a good life And live below your means. My Ex had all the advantages- wealthy family that valued education, paid for his college education, a genius with inorganic chemistry- and he maxed out his credit cards and was a financial train wreck. He put up a splendid appearance but had no savings. I cringe at this now but the year after we met I took on a car loan in my name to buy a Camaro in HIS name that he'd ordered but couldn't finance. We do need to do something about the many people who used to be able to support a family if they had a strong back and a healthy work ethic- many of those jobs are gone or don't pay like they used to.
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,768
|
Post by jerseygirl on Feb 17, 2021 11:04:43 GMT -5
I see it as a country of entitlement. If you want something, you work for it. We have coddled people and turned them into victims. We should be empowering people to overcome hurdles. Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. Taking this to the extreme are you!?? Either poor and a victim or wildly wealthy? Com’on man!
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,368
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 17, 2021 11:24:58 GMT -5
We cannot even get people to stop smoking. People make poor decisions all the time. Sure, we could do more to encourage health, but then we run up against "freedom", just look at the mask and vaccine issues. How much do we want government controlling our life? If we leave it up to individuals, how do we get people to do what we should? Doing the right thing is hard, and in many instances not fun. I thought that employer-sponsored wellness programs were a very good start. My last employer had one and I racked up enough points to get a nice laptop. Sadly, some people cheat- the city of KC found that its employees were getting $200 gift cards for their 3-year olds completing marathons and you can hand your FitBit to a more athletic friend or put it on your dog. I also suspect that the effects are so long-term they didn't produce real savings for employers. Healthy 30-year olds can continue on to be healthy 60-year olds and that's where you can see the real differences in healthcare costs. It's also hard to measure the effects. My employer did determine that the costs were lower for those of us who were "engaged" (racked up a minimum number of points in a given time) but of course the "not engaged" would include people who saw no possibility of improvement or didn't want to do the work, so of course their costs would be higher. I'd also like to see them tax the heck out of empty-calorie processed food. I think all those programs are worthwhile; the problem is there is too much short term thinking. From the insurance companies viewpoint, the cost savings are something they will not see as they are unlikely to be insuring you at that time. The fragmentation of the healthcare system is clearly a problem, and the incentives do not align with all the stakeholders. I agree about the tax on soda and the like. Again, we do not tax tobacco in a rational fashion in many states. I do not think this is something that will come to fruition in a meaningful way either. I spend my day trying to get people to stop smoking and exercising. The success rate is not high. While an admirable goal, making our population healthier is a difficult proposition. The issue is what do we do with our current health and system?
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 17, 2021 11:27:38 GMT -5
And how does one overcome the hurdle where all the wealth is owned by a handful of people? Those people who have made billions while millions lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands die? How can you attempt to thrive when you can barely survive thanks to increasing housing costs and medical costs that bankrupt thousands a year? I'm not completely against capitalism, but they way we've allowed it to run virtually unchecked has caused a ton of problems and not all of them can be solved by just trying to overcome hurdles. Funny about your comment about rising healthcare costs. For pages I argued that we need to reign in healthcare costs (not who pays them) and you were very much against any kind of change. We have conditioned people to think ultra rich are bad. It is very easy to succeed in this country if you are ambitious and willing to bust your ass. I came from government housing and earned enough to retire at 49 (and that was after working part-time for years when my kids were littlr, no child support or divorce settlement). Im no special star. What I am is someone who never thought of themselves as a victim. I knew it was my job to make my life better. We are now a country of people who don’t want to work hard and just want stuff handed to them. My generation raised them so we are to blame. The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, some people can make their life better, but you also went to college at a time when college was a lot cheaper. Housing was also cheaper. And some other things had to have aligned nicely for you that you prefer to call "hard work" when in reality it was luck or shit you couldn't control. Yes, and for pages you've gone on about this unrealistic idea of somehow reigning in costs but still keeping the capitalistic model because how dare you have taxes that pay for health care. It's just impossible to have it that way. It will take massive government regulation to reduce costs without going single payer. Government would have to subsidize law school, expand insurance for those that make less, expand bureaucracy to enforce new laws, etc etc etc. All things you rail against the government doing. You are right that your generation is to blame - but not for what you think. You're to blame for why basic jobs now need a college degree even though the tasks are basic. For the ridiculous rising costs of college. For the rising costs of housing. For how healthcare costs are rising cuz you didn't give a shit to do anything about it years ago. For the fact that wages have stagnated while all these other costs have increased that is crippling a huge portion of the young people - it's hard to earn enough to retire at 49 when the college loans, rent, and paying for healthcare take up almost all of your paycheck. For absolutely ignoring when production soared but instead of rewarding the people responsible for that the rich just kept all that money for themselves. For not giving a shit when multibillion dollar corporations pay their workers little enough that they have to use government benefits - and then being mad at the worker using benefits instead of the people in charge making billions wanting that next million in their bank account instead of paying their workers better.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 17, 2021 11:34:44 GMT -5
I thought that employer-sponsored wellness programs were a very good start. My last employer had one and I racked up enough points to get a nice laptop. Sadly, some people cheat- the city of KC found that its employees were getting $200 gift cards for their 3-year olds completing marathons and you can hand your FitBit to a more athletic friend or put it on your dog. I also suspect that the effects are so long-term they didn't produce real savings for employers. Healthy 30-year olds can continue on to be healthy 60-year olds and that's where you can see the real differences in healthcare costs. It's also hard to measure the effects. My employer did determine that the costs were lower for those of us who were "engaged" (racked up a minimum number of points in a given time) but of course the "not engaged" would include people who saw no possibility of improvement or didn't want to do the work, so of course their costs would be higher. I'd also like to see them tax the heck out of empty-calorie processed food. I think all those programs are worthwhile; the problem is there is too much short term thinking. From the insurance companies viewpoint, the cost savings are something they will not see as they are unlikely to be insuring you at that time. The fragmentation of the healthcare system is clearly a problem, and the incentives do not align with all the stakeholders. I agree about the tax on soda and the like. Again, we do not tax tobacco in a rational fashion in many states. I do not think this is something that will come to fruition in a meaningful way either. I spend my day trying to get people to stop smoking and exercising. The success rate is not high. While an admirable goal, making our population healthier is a difficult proposition. The issue is what do we do with our current health and system? Short term thinking indeed. A 10% tax on a bottle of soda brings up the cost like what? From $2 to $2.20? Not really going to change habits that much. But it sure is a regressive tax as it's going to impact those in lower income more than those that are higher (and also won't change how those in higher behave at all). But if anyone talks about adding a 10% tax on the people making billions a year everyone loses their mind even though losing that money will have very little impact on that.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,393
|
Post by thyme4change on Feb 17, 2021 12:51:59 GMT -5
Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. Taking this to the extreme are you!?? Either poor and a victim or wildly wealthy? Com’on man! Seems it was already extreme - because the average wage has stayed stagnant while the top 1% has increased their wealth exponentially, that naturally the entire country is entitled and lazy.
|
|
stillmovingforward
Senior Member
Hanging on by a thread
Joined: Jan 1, 2014 21:52:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,066
Today's Mood: Don't Mess with Me!
Location: Not Sure Yet
|
Post by stillmovingforward on Feb 17, 2021 13:56:58 GMT -5
Our state has a 50% tax on marijuana merchandise. There's a high sin tax for you! And people happily pay it.
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Feb 17, 2021 14:06:33 GMT -5
I was once in a presentation by the head of a food bank who said, "Our dream is that this expands and is available to everyone in the community who needs it". Why isn't it her dream that the place closes down because no one needs it? OK, that's unrealistic but what can we do to get people into jobs so that they don't need food banks, especially those who are younger and trainable? And, to bring it back to health care, why are so many people making such poor choices? No, you can't fight genetics or the horrible "stuff happens" things like pancreatic cancer or Type 1 diabetes, but we've become a nation of pill-poppers when so much can be prevented or mitigated by diet and exercise and staying at a healthy weight. I was watching TV in a hotel last week and hadn't been exposed to commercials for months (I have Netflix). It was all junk food, mostly fast food chains. Horrible stuff. And I skip most of the middle aisles in grocery stores. I don't need cereal, yogurt and granola bars that are pretty much sugar bombs. My friends on FB post recipes that are even worse- they contain cream cheese, bacon, and way too much meat. "Loaded baked potato salad". Bacon, egg and cheese monkey bread. Bruschetta Chicken Alfredo pizza. Those are all from one poster- my SIL who's obese and has a ton of health problems. Big Food (something like 80% of our food comes from 6 companies) will say that we hall have free will and they're not forcing us to eat their fatty, sugary offerings but then they use terms in their marketing and packaging like "crave-able", "super-size", "big grab", "big gulp". Many of the countries with cheaper health care have populations with far healthier habits- but few people here want to hear about personal responsibility. Exactly. We have literally created cities of dependent people. They have been told they can’t overcome obstacles so why should they even try? It’s quite upsetting to see. I can see how it happens. I was judged because of where I lived. I had teachers tell me my only chance in life was to marry well (true story!). I can see how people would feed into the victimization. I have a different personality. I wanted to become successful to thumb my nose and everyone that told me I would never amount to much. How do we get across to people that the government isn’t here to change their life? They need to take back the power, bust their ass and make something of themselves? People think I’m cruel because I don’t think everyone is a victim. Some of us were much less fortunate. But short of a disability or major health issue, anyone can succeed if they put their heart and soul into it. I find it cruel that we have deemed people incapable of success. How dare we? We have an awful lot of people in the country whose livelihood is directly or indirectly dependent on convincing people that they are victims and that their situation in life is beyond their control. Politicians who claim to protect the public from victimizers and who will make everything fair, despite the decisions we make or the effort we put forth. Social workers whose employment would disappear if people became self sufficient. It appears that the social service system (as designed by the politicians) is structured to treat symptoms rather than address the causes of social problems. If it were otherwise, rather than focusing on aid for housing and nutrition, we’d really focus on job training and the support required so people become self sufficient. Subsistence programs would be ancillary to the primary mission, self sufficiency. Founders, managers, and employees of charities that provide subsistence support rather than self sufficiency support. Psychologists and psychiatrists who have no incentive to tell certain patients that their condition in life is the result of their decisions and behaviors and that to improve their lives they need to change their behavior and decisions. Why do we vilify successful people like Jeff Bezos? The child of a pregnant high school student and an 18 year old bicycle shop employee. And the step son of a Cuban immigrant who came to the US by himself at 16 years old, to make his way in a land where he didn’t speak the language. Given Bezos modest beginnings, that he became the wealthiest person in the country is a significant achievement.
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Feb 17, 2021 15:00:29 GMT -5
I see it as a country of entitlement. If you want something, you work for it. We have coddled people and turned them into victims. We should be empowering people to overcome hurdles. Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. I think there is a difference between working hard and working hard at something that society values highly. You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. What we work at and the geographic location of our work is one of the choices we make in life. We can choose to work hard flipping hamburgers at McDonalds in a small town with limited employment opportunities (and low pay). Or we can choose to work hard at acquiring an advanced education and pursue a highly technical career in a city far from where you grew up. Or we can take a lot of risk and work hard at starting and building a business that has a significant impact on society. (Think Gates, Bezos, Ford, Jobs, Swift (developed refrigerated rail cars that made long distance transportation of perishable food practical), etc.) Some place along the line, we seem to have adopted the idea that all hard work should be valued equally, regardless of the contribution that our work makes to society. The ultimate participation trophy. The illogical extension of that concept would be that my long hours on the couch watching TV, which causes calluses on my behind, would pay as well as being a police officer, or doctor, or rocket scientist, or starting Tesla, simply because I work hard at watching TV (hey, it takes a lot of TV schedule analysis and channel surfing to be able to continuously watch home improvement shows from 6:30 AM until 10:00 PM on Saturday).
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,368
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 17, 2021 15:10:59 GMT -5
What most people refuse to acknowledge however, is that ability is distributed on a bell curve, as is intelligence. Some people can try as hard as they can, and be hard workers, but they will never be better or have anything more than below average ability. It seems that many of you want to tell them "sucks to be you". we need to find a way so those who cannot do better can have an acceptable life. Now there will be some in this category who "won't" do what they should versus "cant" do any better. But trying to tease that out will lead to ridiculous rules.
As to moving, it seems to me that the areas that vote republican are the ones who will not move for better opportunity. They want things to be better where they live instead of moving for opportunity.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 17, 2021 15:17:27 GMT -5
How many people that we deem essential workers are paid a pittance? How can we deem them essential to our life yet then say they don't work hard enough to earn more?
Bezo made literal billions while he was undoubtedly ensconced away so he could avoid covid while those he employed worked to make him money and got covid. Same with Walmart. And yet you want to venerate Bezo but not the people busting ass to get shipments out so those with enough money could stay at home?
And trying to compare people working at lower paid jobs to you wanting to get paid for watching TV is fucked up and illuminates how little you think of the people.
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,368
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 17, 2021 15:23:09 GMT -5
Bezos is the unicorn. He is 1 out of billions. Yet we hold him up as an example. The likelihood of any person becoming Bezos is the result of ability, timing, and just plain good fortune. He is not anyone who we should hold as an example for someone born into poverty with below average intelligence. That person might as well play the lottery, their chance of winning that is better than becoming Jeff Bezos
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 21,302
|
Post by giramomma on Feb 17, 2021 16:16:17 GMT -5
You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. You think that society doesn't value CNAs? Last time I checked, the US population is starting to age, and someone needs to take care of them. Or, maybe we just don't care.
What about dishwashers? (Google tells me being a dishwasher is one of the lowest paid jobs in my state.) You REALLY want to eat at sit-down restaurants with disposable everything. Order a nice $20 glass of wine so it can be enjoyed out of a plastic or paper cup? Or are you happy to eat off of the same plates that the folks that used the same table before you ate off of. We don't need social workers..Let folks stay in abusive situations. Right? It's their fault they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps..including minor children. And we certainly don't need daycare providers now do we? What value do they provide? Of course 3 month old babies should survive at home, alone for 9-11 hours a day.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 17, 2021 16:52:36 GMT -5
Funny about your comment about rising healthcare costs. For pages I argued that we need to reign in healthcare costs (not who pays them) and you were very much against any kind of change. We have conditioned people to think ultra rich are bad. It is very easy to succeed in this country if you are ambitious and willing to bust your ass. I came from government housing and earned enough to retire at 49 (and that was after working part-time for years when my kids were littlr, no child support or divorce settlement). Im no special star. What I am is someone who never thought of themselves as a victim. I knew it was my job to make my life better. We are now a country of people who don’t want to work hard and just want stuff handed to them. My generation raised them so we are to blame. The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, some people can make their life better, but you also went to college at a time when college was a lot cheaper. Housing was also cheaper. And some other things had to have aligned nicely for you that you prefer to call "hard work" when in reality it was luck or shit you couldn't control. Yes, and for pages you've gone on about this unrealistic idea of somehow reigning in costs but still keeping the capitalistic model because how dare you have taxes that pay for health care. It's just impossible to have it that way. It will take massive government regulation to reduce costs without going single payer. Government would have to subsidize law school, expand insurance for those that make less, expand bureaucracy to enforce new laws, etc etc etc. All things you rail against the government doing. You are right that your generation is to blame - but not for what you think. You're to blame for why basic jobs now need a college degree even though the tasks are basic. For the ridiculous rising costs of college. For the rising costs of housing. For how healthcare costs are rising cuz you didn't give a shit to do anything about it years ago. For the fact that wages have stagnated while all these other costs have increased that is crippling a huge portion of the young people - it's hard to earn enough to retire at 49 when the college loans, rent, and paying for healthcare take up almost all of your paycheck. For absolutely ignoring when production soared but instead of rewarding the people responsible for that the rich just kept all that money for themselves. For not giving a shit when multibillion dollar corporations pay their workers little enough that they have to use government benefits - and then being mad at the worker using benefits instead of the people in charge making billions wanting that next million in their bank account instead of paying their workers better. I graduated college with debt of $18k. My first years salary was $20k. But I knew I chose a profession where my salary would quickly move up. What I didn’t do was sit around and moan and complain about how the taxpayers should absorb my debt that I willingly signed up for. I also taught my daughter to use her head. Instead of taking on signicant debt, she is going to a state school. I have zero pity for any idiot that takes on $100k in student loan debt for a job that will make you $50k. The problem with the younger generations is they want what they want but they want others to foot the bill. As for housing costs, considering you can still get houses for around $100k in my area and not get killed after dark, I don’t think I’m to blame. If housing is too expensive in the big cities, people should move. Or places like California that are just insane. But again, people prefer to bitch and complain and blame others for their own choices. Got it on the healthcare. No one wants to focus on costs but it’s somehow my generations fault that people won’t worry about the cost of an MRI. You are kind of proving my point about your generation. You want to make the decisions and then bitch that everyone else should shoulder the cost
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 17, 2021 17:02:37 GMT -5
You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. You think that society doesn't value CNAs? Last time I checked, the US population is starting to age, and someone needs to take care of them. Or, maybe we just don't care.
What about dishwashers? (Google tells me being a dishwasher is one of the lowest paid jobs in my state.) You REALLY want to eat at sit-down restaurants with disposable everything. Order a nice $20 glass of wine so it can be enjoyed out of a plastic or paper cup? Or are you happy to eat off of the same plates that the folks that used the same table before you ate off of. We don't need social workers..Let folks stay in abusive situations. Right? It's their fault they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps..including minor children. And we certainly don't need daycare providers now do we? What value do they provide? Of course 3 month old babies should survive at home, alone for 9-11 hours a day.
You are confusing valuing a position and being able to afford to pay them How many people could afford daycare if the workers got paid $20/hr In my state, the ratio is one daycare worker to four babies. Spread the cost of the rent, the directors salary, insurance (sky high, btw), equipment, training and everything else that I’m not thinking of to each child. $10/hr or More per infant. Now, how many people make enough to pay $400 a week for infant care? Then the complaint would be that daycare is unaffordable to working moms.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 17, 2021 19:35:53 GMT -5
The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, some people can make their life better, but you also went to college at a time when college was a lot cheaper. Housing was also cheaper. And some other things had to have aligned nicely for you that you prefer to call "hard work" when in reality it was luck or shit you couldn't control. Yes, and for pages you've gone on about this unrealistic idea of somehow reigning in costs but still keeping the capitalistic model because how dare you have taxes that pay for health care. It's just impossible to have it that way. It will take massive government regulation to reduce costs without going single payer. Government would have to subsidize law school, expand insurance for those that make less, expand bureaucracy to enforce new laws, etc etc etc. All things you rail against the government doing. You are right that your generation is to blame - but not for what you think. You're to blame for why basic jobs now need a college degree even though the tasks are basic. For the ridiculous rising costs of college. For the rising costs of housing. For how healthcare costs are rising cuz you didn't give a shit to do anything about it years ago. For the fact that wages have stagnated while all these other costs have increased that is crippling a huge portion of the young people - it's hard to earn enough to retire at 49 when the college loans, rent, and paying for healthcare take up almost all of your paycheck. For absolutely ignoring when production soared but instead of rewarding the people responsible for that the rich just kept all that money for themselves. For not giving a shit when multibillion dollar corporations pay their workers little enough that they have to use government benefits - and then being mad at the worker using benefits instead of the people in charge making billions wanting that next million in their bank account instead of paying their workers better. I graduated college with debt of $18k. My first years salary was $20k. But I knew I chose a profession where my salary would quickly move up. What I didn’t do was sit around and moan and complain about how the taxpayers should absorb my debt that I willingly signed up for. I also taught my daughter to use her head. Instead of taking on signicant debt, she is going to a state school. I have zero pity for any idiot that takes on $100k in student loan debt for a job that will make you $50k. The problem with the younger generations is they want what they want but they want others to foot the bill. As for housing costs, considering you can still get houses for around $100k in my area and not get killed after dark, I don’t think I’m to blame. If housing is too expensive in the big cities, people should move. Or places like California that are just insane. But again, people prefer to bitch and complain and blame others for their own choices. Got it on the healthcare. No one wants to focus on costs but it’s somehow my generations fault that people won’t worry about the cost of an MRI. You are kind of proving my point about your generation. You want to make the decisions and then bitch that everyone else should shoulder the cost So you ignore the fact that since you were in college prices have skyrocketed while wages have stayed stagnant. If you can get a house in your area for $100k I bet dollars to donuts that the average wage in that same area is under $40k. But you also ignore that not everyone can or wants to own a house. Kind of ironic for a landlord. So what about rent prices? Because those are going up crazy in some places. Also - lovely on the stop bitching and move then. I take it you have a vegetable garden in your backyard complete with chicken and pigs? Were you also make your own toiletries? No? Well otherwise all those big cities and even smaller cities still need people that work at the grocery store and other places. You can't blame them for living in some places unless you don't need their services yourself. For fuck's sake - knowing how much a fucking MRI costs isn't going to bring down the cost of healthcare in the US. For someone who retired from a career in numbers I don't know why you're still crowing on that point when people have pointed out multiple other reason why healthcare cost so damn much here. I don't think everyone else should shoulder the cost - just mostly the asshole billionaires that saw their money and salary sky rocket while they held wages of their employees stagnant. A ton of problems would be solved if they weren't greedy assholes, but they are. And instead of the government doing shit about it and actually taxing the billionaires and greedy ass corporations they just suck their dick instead. Sorry I won't attack people when their wages either aren't or are barely keeping up with inflation over the people making money hand over fist and not giving a shit that a huge chunk of their employees need your taxes to survive because the Walmart family wants to upgrade their yacht.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,882
|
Post by happyhoix on Feb 17, 2021 19:36:05 GMT -5
You think that society doesn't value CNAs? Last time I checked, the US population is starting to age, and someone needs to take care of them. Or, maybe we just don't care.
What about dishwashers? (Google tells me being a dishwasher is one of the lowest paid jobs in my state.) You REALLY want to eat at sit-down restaurants with disposable everything. Order a nice $20 glass of wine so it can be enjoyed out of a plastic or paper cup? Or are you happy to eat off of the same plates that the folks that used the same table before you ate off of. We don't need social workers..Let folks stay in abusive situations. Right? It's their fault they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps..including minor children. And we certainly don't need daycare providers now do we? What value do they provide? Of course 3 month old babies should survive at home, alone for 9-11 hours a day.
You are confusing valuing a position and being able to afford to pay them How many people could afford daycare if the workers got paid $20/hr In my state, the ratio is one daycare worker to four babies. Spread the cost of the rent, the directors salary, insurance (sky high, btw), equipment, training and everything else that I’m not thinking of to each child. $10/hr or More per infant. Now, how many people make enough to pay $400 a week for infant care? Then the complaint would be that daycare is unaffordable to working moms. Should daycare really be limited to what a family can pay though? Poor women have the dilemma of leaving their kid in a crappy daycare they can afford or simply not working and living on a government subsidy so they can care for their kid themselves. If everyone got free quality daycare, poor families could work without worrying about how their kids are, and kids would be better educated. And don’t say we can’t afford it - we can’t afford paying welfare and a bunch of uneducated citizens.
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Feb 17, 2021 20:16:32 GMT -5
You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. You think that society doesn't value CNAs? Last time I checked, the US population is starting to age, and someone needs to take care of them. Or, maybe we just don't care.
What about dishwashers? (Google tells me being a dishwasher is one of the lowest paid jobs in my state.) You REALLY want to eat at sit-down restaurants with disposable everything. Order a nice $20 glass of wine so it can be enjoyed out of a plastic or paper cup? Or are you happy to eat off of the same plates that the folks that used the same table before you ate off of. We don't need social workers..Let folks stay in abusive situations. Right? It's their fault they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps..including minor children. And we certainly don't need daycare providers now do we? What value do they provide? Of course 3 month old babies should survive at home, alone for 9-11 hours a day.
I didn’t say that society doesn’t value any of the occupations you cited. What I did say was that working hard is not the measure by which people’s work is valued. Our society determines the value of work effort by examining a large array of factors. Some of those factors might include how many people are capable of doing the work, how many people are willing to do the work, how much training is required to do the work, whether or not the work requires an unusual level of skill, and how much demand there is for what a job produces. Why does our society value the work of a surgeon more highly than the work of a dishwasher? After all, as you pointed out, most of us prefer to eat off of clean dishes. Most all of us are capable of washing dishes, most of us are willing to wash dishes as an alternative to using dirty dishes, the training required to become a competent dish washer is minimal, about 10 minutes, and nearly all adults have the physical ability necessary to wash dishes. In contrast, not many of us have the manual dexterity required for demanding surgery. A competent surgeon requires a lot of training. Often ten years or more. Not too many of us are capable of doing our own heart transplant. Nor would we be willing to accept the risk of doing our own heart transplant. So we’re not willing to do the work of a surgeon. Last, there is the demand factor. Both athletics and chess require a high level of skill. But chess matches do not have the spectator appeal of professional athletics. We seem to have a dearth of 70,000 seat chess stadiums. I guess that’s why we don’t see newspaper reports about the latest multi-million dollar contract signed by a high profile chess player.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,393
|
Post by thyme4change on Feb 17, 2021 20:52:05 GMT -5
Sure, because every person we know know that has worked hard their whole life is wildly wealthy. I think there is a difference between working hard and working hard at something that society values highly. You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. What we work at and the geographic location of our work is one of the choices we make in life. We can choose to work hard flipping hamburgers at McDonalds in a small town with limited employment opportunities (and low pay). Or we can choose to work hard at acquiring an advanced education and pursue a highly technical career in a city far from where you grew up. Or we can take a lot of risk and work hard at starting and building a business that has a significant impact on society. (Think Gates, Bezos, Ford, Jobs, Swift (developed refrigerated rail cars that made long distance transportation of perishable food practical), etc.) Some place along the line, we seem to have adopted the idea that all hard work should be valued equally, regardless of the contribution that our work makes to society. The ultimate participation trophy. The illogical extension of that concept would be that my long hours on the couch watching TV, which causes calluses on my behind, would pay as well as being a police officer, or doctor, or rocket scientist, or starting Tesla, simply because I work hard at watching TV (hey, it takes a lot of TV schedule analysis and channel surfing to be able to continuously watch home improvement shows from 6:30 AM until 10:00 PM on Saturday). What about highly valued, but low paid work?
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Feb 17, 2021 21:17:08 GMT -5
I think there is a difference between working hard and working hard at something that society values highly. You can work very hard at moving buckets of water from one side of a lake to the other. But it’s not an activity that society places a lot of value on. So it’s work that doesn’t pay very well. What we work at and the geographic location of our work is one of the choices we make in life. We can choose to work hard flipping hamburgers at McDonalds in a small town with limited employment opportunities (and low pay). Or we can choose to work hard at acquiring an advanced education and pursue a highly technical career in a city far from where you grew up. Or we can take a lot of risk and work hard at starting and building a business that has a significant impact on society. (Think Gates, Bezos, Ford, Jobs, Swift (developed refrigerated rail cars that made long distance transportation of perishable food practical), etc.) Some place along the line, we seem to have adopted the idea that all hard work should be valued equally, regardless of the contribution that our work makes to society. The ultimate participation trophy. The illogical extension of that concept would be that my long hours on the couch watching TV, which causes calluses on my behind, would pay as well as being a police officer, or doctor, or rocket scientist, or starting Tesla, simply because I work hard at watching TV (hey, it takes a lot of TV schedule analysis and channel surfing to be able to continuously watch home improvement shows from 6:30 AM until 10:00 PM on Saturday). What about highly valued, but low paid work? First, let’s be clear. Low paid does not equal unimportant. I’m considering “valued” in more of an economic sense. In that context, what do you have in mind? In general, I’d argue that highly valued from an economic perspective and low paid would be mutually exclusive. If it’s highly valued, wouldn’t you be willing to pay a good price for it? For example, clean drinking water is important, but not highly valued because in most places it is readily available in massive quantities at the turn of a faucet. Now, if you were in the middle of a desert, miles and hours from a source of clean drinking water, the water might become highly valued, something you’d pay a lot of money for, as a result of it’s scarcity.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,393
|
Post by thyme4change on Feb 17, 2021 22:06:21 GMT -5
What about highly valued, but low paid work? First, let’s be clear. Low paid does not equal unimportant. I’m considering “valued” in more of an economic sense. In that context, what do you have in mind? In general, I’d argue that highly valued from an economic perspective and low paid would be mutually exclusive. If it’s highly valued, wouldn’t you be willing to pay a good price for it? For example, clean drinking water is important, but not highly valued because in most places it is readily available in massive quantities at the turn of a faucet. Now, if you were in the middle of a desert, miles and hours from a source of clean drinking water, the water might become highly valued, something you’d pay a lot of money for, as a result of it’s scarcity. Yes, we are aware that capitalism drives the economic pressure, and that is how we decide how much people get paid. And if you aren't good at those things, you are lazy, entitled and poor - and you deserve it.
|
|