Does unlimited PTO work better for employers or employees?

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2021 21:10:25 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

One of DH's previous employers had separate sick time and PTO, on top of his built-in school holidays. After he'd been there a few years, they changed policy to cap PTO annually - you could no longer carryover more than one year's worth of PTO (whatever it was, 10 days, maybe). At year-end, it was cashed out at 50%; if you didn't burn it, cashing it out was a tiny bump in pay over your normal salary. Sick leave, though, continued to carryover.

Now, teachers hate taking sick days, it's much more work to prep a lesson for a sub to do in your absence, and then catchup after losing that day in your schedule. So DH accrued a lot of sick days over a dozen years with that agency. Partially it was an insurance policy in case he ever got seriously sick or needed surgery, etc, but mostly it was just the massive inconvenience of actually taking a sick day.

When he got fed up with the administration, and was ready to quit, he began seriously researching policies to see what he could expect to get when he left (normally he doesn't think about that stuff). I think PTO was paid out 100%, and sick leave 50%. He arranged to contribute 50% of his final compensation to nearly max his 401k (left a bit of room to capture a match at the next employer), spread it over 5 checks (to reduce tax withholding by not having it in one big lump sum), and the remainder was enough to cover our expenses for the rest of the year (he quit in June).

A few months later, he heard thru the grapevine - New policy: sick leave accrual payout capped at $2500. I'm positive the change in policy was because of the pain of paying out that chunk to DH. They had to pay him, because of current policy, but then they changed policy so it wouldn't happen again.

Something I hadn't calculated until that situation: when they pay out your accrued PTO or sick leave years later, they are paying it out at your current pay rate, not the pay rate you necessarily earned it at.

You are right: teachers hate taking sick days.  I can't tell you how hard it was for me to come up with autonomous lessons the kids could do without me.  This was especially true for multiple days when DH was so sick.  And don't get me started on subs who brought their own movies to show!  They made it look like MY lesson plan was to show Aladdin or whatever.  Subs don't teach.  They supervise, which is important.  But if you can drag yourself in, you do.

Alabama pays out sick leave as retirement credit.  Teachers don't get vacation days.  Our contracts specify a certain number of working days.

I retired with 6 or 7 months credit.  It would have been more, but DH was hospitalized every year at the beginning of school for the last 5 or more years.

[giramomma]

Feb 8, 2021 17:40:08 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Do professors negotiate?

I just realized I don't know squat about being a professor at a University. Maybe I just assumed there was a standard package and you take it or leave it.

That's how it is for us.

My benefits package is the same as the professors get.

Hourly workers get a different benefits package.

Up until the pandemic, my university was trying to narrow the difference between the two.

So, for example, I started out with 22 days of vacation.

An hourly worker starts out with two weeks and generally it takes a while to get to four weeks.

I think sick days are similar for both of types of employees.

Hourly workers also had the opportunity to unionize. When state workers still had the ability to bargain, hourly workers often got raises when I and professors didn't.

We are also paid differently. I'm paid once a month (as well as professors). Hourly folks are paid every two weeks. Well, now I'm going to be paid every two weeks as well in the next fiscal year. I don't know who, exactly, thought this was a good idea.

[tskeeter]

Feb 8, 2021 12:09:32 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

The only way unlimited PTO is not gonna be a disaster for employers is if they somehow convince their employees not to take it— most likely fear of being fired.

The tech industry in general is known for working people to death. I’ve spent months on end working 10+ hour days, and 90% of the unpaid overtime I put in has been due to piss poor management. – Not having the right tools for the job, users who don’t know what they want but they want it yesterday, not getting proper support from other groups, usually because they’ve been gutted. When they say unlimited PTO, what they really mean is no PTO.

Agree.

”Unlimited PTO” will be just like many other employee benefit “improvements” implemented since the early 80’s.  Pay for performance (bonus) programs that, over a few years, actually reduce compensation costs.  (I worked in finance and saw the projections.)  Empowering employees by laying off their boss, then expecting the employees to do things that used to be their boss’s job without giving the employees additional pay.  Replacing pension plans with 401K plans on the premise that they provide employees with retirement plans that make it easier to change employers when what they really do is reduce the cost of retiree benefits.

In just a few years in corporate America, unlimited PTO will become a license for businesses to increase workloads to 60, 70, and 80 hours a week.  (I worked for a company that refused to allow salaried employees to shift to a four days a week, 10 hours a day schedule because they had designed salaried work loads to require 50 hours a week and a 4/10 schedule would reduce the production of salaried employees by 20%.)

Unlimited PTO is a corporate fairytale that will ultimately be used to take advantage of employees.

[teen persuasion]

Feb 8, 2021 23:23:08 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Feb 8, 2021 21:10:25 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

One of DH's previous employers had separate sick time and PTO, on top of his built-in school holidays. After he'd been there a few years, they changed policy to cap PTO annually - you could no longer carryover more than one year's worth of PTO (whatever it was, 10 days, maybe). At year-end, it was cashed out at 50%; if you didn't burn it, cashing it out was a tiny bump in pay over your normal salary. Sick leave, though, continued to carryover.

Now, teachers hate taking sick days, it's much more work to prep a lesson for a sub to do in your absence, and then catchup after losing that day in your schedule. So DH accrued a lot of sick days over a dozen years with that agency. Partially it was an insurance policy in case he ever got seriously sick or needed surgery, etc, but mostly it was just the massive inconvenience of actually taking a sick day.

When he got fed up with the administration, and was ready to quit, he began seriously researching policies to see what he could expect to get when he left (normally he doesn't think about that stuff). I think PTO was paid out 100%, and sick leave 50%. He arranged to contribute 50% of his final compensation to nearly max his 401k (left a bit of room to capture a match at the next employer), spread it over 5 checks (to reduce tax withholding by not having it in one big lump sum), and the remainder was enough to cover our expenses for the rest of the year (he quit in June).

A few months later, he heard thru the grapevine - New policy: sick leave accrual payout capped at $2500. I'm positive the change in policy was because of the pain of paying out that chunk to DH. They had to pay him, because of current policy, but then they changed policy so it wouldn't happen again.

Something I hadn't calculated until that situation: when they pay out your accrued PTO or sick leave years later, they are paying it out at your current pay rate, not the pay rate you necessarily earned it at.

You are right: teachers hate taking sick days.  I can't tell you how hard it was for me to come up with autonomous lessons the kids could do without me.  This was especially true for multiple days when DH was so sick.  And don't get me started on subs who brought their own movies to show!  They made it look like MY lesson plan was to show Aladdin or whatever.  Subs don't teach.  They supervise, which is important.  But if you can drag yourself in, you do.

Alabama pays out sick leave as retirement credit.  Teachers don't get vacation days.  Our contracts specify a certain number of working days.

I retired with 6 or 7 months credit.  It would have been more, but DH was hospitalized every year at the beginning of school for the last 5 or more years.

DH has never worked for a district school, only for agencies with alternative schools, often with residential students.  So he's not in the state retirement system, and has only his own contributions to 401k accounts.  He's in a weird hybrid situation, with a 35  hour 40 week school year schedule inside an agency with 40 hr 52 week office schedules.  So benefits get mangled across the divide.

[stillmovingforward]

I agree about the downgrade in 401(k) contributions. Of my last 3 employers, 2 cancelled 401(k) matches due to economic conditions asend my current one offers a 401(k) but doesn't contribute to it. At least they were up front and honest about it!

[Tiny]

Feb 8, 2021 15:19:57 GMT -5 imawino said:

Feb 8, 2021 15:16:30 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Getting paid on "getting it done" does not mean there are no schedule requirements.

I agree.  That's why I think it's unlikely that someone not gaming the system never needed a day off for 30 years.  

I'm just throwing this out there.  I think you are debating how time off works for people in "Education".    If that is true - there may be a Union and labor contracts involved.   This is often very different than the sick/vacation time off that people NOT working in education get. 

One of the "perks" in my School District for teachers is the ability to "bank" an unlimited amount of unused 'sick time' and 'vacation time'.   Another 'perk' is that there are usually 2 to 3 holidays or 'teacher institute' days  each month when they do not to come to work (or account for the day as a sick/vacation day if they do not attend the 'institute' day.   Over her 30 year career -my friend was able to bank 160 days plus of unused "sick/vacation time".   She would have had more but she used some sick time in the two years before retirement.   I believe she was shooting for having over 187 days of sick time banked at retirement (basically the number of days she was paid to work in a school year).    She didn't quite make her goal.    

Over her teaching career - she only went on vacations during breaks in teaching - so the week at Easter or the 2 weeks at Christmas or over the summer.   She did drs appts and scheduled any sort of thing that required time off of work for one of the many "no school" days during the school year OR for after 4pm on a weekday (her "work day at the school" ended at  2:55pm and she could be home by 4pm - or make an appointment)    She was militant about NOT taking off an actual work day and having to log a 'sick day' or a 'vacation' day her entire career. 

Did she "game" the system?  Or was she just using a work benefit to her advantage?  


My job - gives me 8 paid holidays.  I  have to be at work between 9am and 5pm at a minimum.  I have a cap on how much PTO I can accrue (30 days).   I get it that teachers spend alot of not at school time - working.   I think that's were the "flexibility" comes in.  they can grade papers at 7pm at night or on Saturday mornings.   If they have an "institute day" and are let out at 3pm - they could schedule an appointment for later that day and make it.   They could opt to move around their after 3pm "work"  to accomodate an appointment or going somewhere before 5pm.   

I HAVE to take time off of work to do something at 4pm outside work on a weekday. 
That's not a complaint - it's just a potentially big difference in work lifestyles.

[TheOtherMe]

My dad went over 30 years without taking a sick day.  Did he mean he was never sick?  No, but he didn't call in sick until he had no choice because he needed surgery.