bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Feb 7, 2021 10:27:04 GMT -5
I start my new job tomorrow. The company was acquired a few months ago, and I found out the 3 weeks PTO and 5 days sick leave in my offer letter are being replaced by unlimited PTO in the near future. I know this is a trend in tech companies, but what I've heard is people end up taking less PTO because they are worried about how they are being perceived by team members. And PTO was pretty generous at tech companies to start with. I had 4 weeks plus 6 sick days at my last company. I always found myself in a position of having to take time at the end of the year or end of Q1 when it was use or lose for rollover. Which in a way was nice, though I'll also say in the last couple of years I saw myself and many other team members working a few hours to a half day through "time off" because of work load.
Has anyone else worked at a company with unlimited PTO? Off the top of my head I see the savings to the employer when someone leaves the company as they aren't paying any accrued PTO out. It is also a savings if they don't need specific software to keep up with accrued PTO. I'm not sure I like this. I guess the only thing I can do is keep track of the 3 weeks on my own and try to make sure I hit that number each year.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 7, 2021 11:38:06 GMT -5
I like the idea of it, but I think it would be tough for me. I'm best at taking time off when I'm hitting the accrual cap (300 hours).
I couldn't figure out why I was down to 220 hours when I checked last week. I forgot the company let us use up to 80 hours toward our 401k last year.
I would definitely try to carve out regular time off. A week or two that you always take and plan on a certain # of 3 or 4 day weekends. I'd map it out for this year right away (privately just in case a boss searches your calendar, that might look weird).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 7, 2021 11:39:25 GMT -5
I can only speak from my experience. I got 4 weeks vacation and unlimited sick days (within reason). I rarely took sick time and struggled to take my vacation because the workload was crazy. I found myself working crazy hours the week before and after vacation to make up for the time away. So I essentially worked the hours just in different weeks
So unlimited time off would mean nothing to me. What would mean more if a a company that truly believed in work/life balance and structured their team accordingly.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Feb 7, 2021 12:11:52 GMT -5
It is better for the corporation. The corporation I work at has this. While "unlimited," it is up to the supervisor's discretion. In my department, that equals 4 weeks. In 2020, I guess that at least 1 week was left on the table by each employee as the team is way overworked and each does not want to leave the others in the lurch. The reason the corporation does this is so they don't have to pay out vacation time when people leave.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Feb 7, 2021 13:13:30 GMT -5
My company went to unlimited PTO for the salaried workers starting in 2021. Most people are not happy with it. They liked having X amount of hours that were theirs to use as they wanted. The use it or lose it part gave people an excuse "well, I have to take off every Friday between now and the end of the year or I'll lose it". I think a lot will hardly ever be taking off anymore. There were a few that had HUGE payouts at year end because even though it's use it or lose it, a few were given permission to carry over from year to year due to customer demands at year end not allowing them to leave. One guy told me he got an 8K vacation check!
I'm hourly, so it doesn't affect me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 7, 2021 13:44:10 GMT -5
This is an accounting issue.
First off, tracking everyone's vacation and calculating a liability that needs to be carried on the balance sheet is expensive. And if you go to "unlimited" after a period of time, you can release that accrual and take the amount as profit.
Also, with a stated amount of time, employers are obligated to pay out the time per their policy. If they give everyone their vacation time on Jan 1 - and someone quits on Jan 3, they should get the full payout. Even if the company only give it proportional each paycheck, you can bank a few weeks and get a check upon leaving.
Getting rid of that work, payout and liability is bigger than most people imagine, especially when you get to a company the size of (say) GE.
It does push that responsibility onto managers. Managers probably still track your time, and if you take too much time, it will probably reflect poorly on you. Just as I have never taken a two consecutive week vacation, even though technically there is no reason I couldn't. But it would puss off a bunch of people.
So, cheaper for the company, no real change for the employee and slightly more responsibility (and authority) for the manager. I'm still wondering why any company still has structured vacation policies.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 7, 2021 14:46:29 GMT -5
My first job was at a company with unlimited PTO. I don’t remember anyone taking advantage of it. I also didn’t receive a check for my unused vacation when I left.
Subsequent jobs, I got 12 sick days and 4-6 weeks of vacation/year. I lost over 700 hours of sick time from one job when I left. Last job, I used up every hour of sick time. Both jobs paid out unused vacation. Even though we did have a very good vacation policy, it was hard to take more than 2 weeks and needed to plan leaves for down times.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 7, 2021 15:02:33 GMT -5
I like the idea of it, but I think it would be tough for me. I'm best at taking time off when I'm hitting the accrual cap (300 hours). I couldn't figure out why I was down to 220 hours when I checked last week. I forgot the company let us use up to 80 hours toward our 401k last year. I would definitely try to carve out regular time off. A week or two that you always take and plan on a certain # of 3 or 4 day weekends. I'd map it out for this year right away (privately just in case a boss searches your calendar, that might look weird). yeah - the cap really triggers me to take time, and highlights workload issues. It seems like a nice idea, but is sure to not be equal across workers, and likely benefit employers and *some* employees, likely those who do the least work...
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ners
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Post by ners on Feb 7, 2021 15:36:54 GMT -5
My company just went to unlimited vacation time. The reasoning behind the policy is to not have to pay out vacation upon termination and no longer have to accrue for vacation.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 7, 2021 16:38:47 GMT -5
I manage 5 people and I think working remotely has given me a glimpse into how people would probably manage vacation if they had unlimited time off. A lot of people that are working from home basically didn't see the need to take vacation so they had a ton saved up by the end of the year and they used them in the last month. If you had "unlimited days", then I could see the same thing happen where people put off taking days off. The only difference is that I don't think that they would feel the need to use a bunch of days at the end of the year.
I have never had an issue taking the days off, but part of it is because we have my parents lake house to go to in the summer so that chews up a lot, plus we're in prime vacation-taking mode with our kids so that eats up time as well. I can see if you're not going anywhere that it wouldn't make a ton of sense to take days off.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Feb 7, 2021 17:42:02 GMT -5
I think it depends on the company. I, essentially, have unlimited PTO. Maybe it's my disability, maybe it's because I'll work a 10-11 hr day on days I do work, maybe it's just easier math to never count it. I don't know. I just know that I'm out with a migraine at least one day a week and have been every week since I started working in Sept. My bosses have been awesome about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 18:02:25 GMT -5
I wonder how "unlimited" PTO works in conjunction with pregnancy?
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ners
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Post by ners on Feb 7, 2021 18:18:39 GMT -5
I wonder how "unlimited" PTO works in conjunction with pregnancy? That was something brought up at my workplace. We are not allowed to use vacation if we are sick. We are still getting one sick/personal day per month until we get to 90 days. There were some employees not happy with the policy change although i have not heard of any one who is currently pregnant.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Feb 7, 2021 18:22:49 GMT -5
My next to last job gave me 5 weeks of vacation and 15 sick days per year. They didn't mind if I didn't use my sick days and I didn't get paid for them if I didn't use them. They did care if I didn't use all my vacation and they didn't pay for unused or allow any of it to carry over except in special circumstances. I was a salaried employee so I could take a couple of hours out of my day for a doctor's appointment without using my time. Back in 2003 and 2007, they were going to make me use my sick time and STD for being out with my back, but I worked remotely one or two days a week normally. They accepted me working remotely for 3-4 months without counting any of it as sick leave. I don't know if they would do that for every employee though.
I suspect most employees wouldn't abuse the situation. After all, they see what it's like when someone else is out.
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jeffreymo
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Post by jeffreymo on Feb 7, 2021 18:37:56 GMT -5
I’m one of the lucky ones who is able to schedule and use all of my vacation time. I work with a few who announce every December that they are going to lose a week or more and I just choose to believe that they don’t manage their time as well as I do - or they’re going to be recognized for their hard work while I won’t. I’m ok with that and my work gets done.
We have what seems like unlimited opportunities to flex our schedule and work either 4 days or 4.5 days. So it’s almost like we have unlimited Fridays off.
I think the unlimited VAC would benefit the employer for some of the reasons mentioned above. Paying out when someone leaves, keeping track, budgeting etc... One of the biggest benefits to the employer might be the back and forth negotiation that occurs with some new hires - “we can match and exceed your current companies PTO, because ours is unlimited.”
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 7, 2021 18:53:13 GMT -5
I could get up to 1250 hours sick and 8 weeks of vacation at the university.
To take it all at once I would have had to have permission from my PI and department.
I had both kids at the university. Sick leave was used and if I had to I could burn vacation. I was expected to return in the 12 week FMLA time frame unless there was a medical reason not to. Then I would go on unpaid leave.
So no I could not suck my employer dry. After 12 weeks I would have been responsible for my entire medical premiums and if I did not return at all I would have to pay back the rest.
I never knew anyone who abused it. It worked out for people who went home for vacation they could arrange to take enough time off to make it worth it.
I left with a positive balance. Wish I had used more of it as opposed to working myself to exhaustion. At the end of the day it made no difference.
Now I only have two weeks and it sucks. We're also treated like kids over it. I'm glad my manager is at least flexible there. I can come in late and work late rather than burn 4 hours for a 20 minute dental appointment.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Feb 7, 2021 19:11:31 GMT -5
I can only speak from my experience. I got 4 weeks vacation and unlimited sick days (within reason). I rarely took sick time and struggled to take my vacation because the workload was crazy. I found myself working crazy hours the week before and after vacation to make up for the time away. So I essentially worked the hours just in different weeks So unlimited time off would mean nothing to me. What would mean more if a a company that truly believed in work/life balance and structured their team accordingly. This is what I experienced, too. The last company I worked for grew from $15 million of sales at the time I started to $70 million seven years later. Rather than the headcount in our department growing to keep pace with the growth of the business, our head count decreased from five people to three people. That’s a lot fewer people than the 23 people that the sales growth indicated would be appropriate.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 7, 2021 19:25:02 GMT -5
You guys are making me feel good about my 5 weeks vacation and 12 sick days. We can't carry sick days over so I make sure to use them through the year. Vacation pay owed accumulates each pay. I got a couple of weeks paid out this year. They don't like it to accrue too much because they end up paying double to get the same job done and our budget is tight enough that it hurts.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 7, 2021 23:39:23 GMT -5
I could get up to 1250 hours sick and 8 weeks of vacation at the university. To take it all at once I would have had to have permission from my PI and department. I had both kids at the university. Sick leave was used and if I had to I could burn vacation. I was expected to return in the 12 week FMLA time frame unless there was a medical reason not to. Then I would go on unpaid leave. So no I could not suck my employer dry. After 12 weeks I would have been responsible for my entire medical premiums and if I did not return at all I would have to pay back the rest. I never knew anyone who abused it. It worked out for people who went home for vacation they could arrange to take enough time off to make it worth it. I left with a positive balance. Wish I had used more of it as opposed to working myself to exhaustion. At the end of the day it made no difference. Now I only have two weeks and it sucks. We're also treated like kids over it. I'm glad my manager is at least flexible there. I can come in late and work late rather than burn 4 hours for a 20 minute dental appointment. I started my first job out of college on June 1st and had 3 vacation days to use for the year because I don't think I started accruing any days until 90 days after my start date. If I needed to call in sick, I had to call in and talk to my manager (email wasn't widely used, nobody had VM). As a sidenote, that job also had hours of 8-5 and, literally, if I walked in 3 minutes late my manager would ask me to make up the time at lunch. It was a stampede at 5:00. I think the only reason I survived that job for a year was because I had just come out of college and was used to people treating me like a kid. My next several jobs after that were all 2 weeks and it totally sucked. When I got to my current job, it was 2 weeks to start plus 4 floating holidays, but they eventually changed the policy around and almost everyone started with 20 days...I think I have 24 right now. In conjunction with this, pre-covid, there was way more flexibility as far as doctors appointments, picking kids up, working from home, etc. I think that is what helped when we all had to work remote, people do a good job because they like the company they are working for.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Feb 8, 2021 8:33:51 GMT -5
This is an accounting issue. First off, tracking everyone's vacation and calculating a liability that needs to be carried on the balance sheet is expensive. And if you go to "unlimited" after a period of time, you can release that accrual and take the amount as profit. Also, with a stated amount of time, employers are obligated to pay out the time per their policy. If they give everyone their vacation time on Jan 1 - and someone quits on Jan 3, they should get the full payout. Even if the company only give it proportional each paycheck, you can bank a few weeks and get a check upon leaving. Getting rid of that work, payout and liability is bigger than most people imagine, especially when you get to a company the size of (say) GE. It does push that responsibility onto managers. Managers probably still track your time, and if you take too much time, it will probably reflect poorly on you. Just as I have never taken a two consecutive week vacation, even though technically there is no reason I couldn't. But it would puss off a bunch of people. So, cheaper for the company, no real change for the employee and slightly more responsibility (and authority) for the manager. I'm still wondering why any company still has structured vacation policies. During the 2008 crash and recession I worked in the Dean's Office for a university. The faculty were allowed to carry over sick and vacation days and I remember the discussions (really complaining) about retiring professors who were claiming never to have taken a sick day in 30 years. It was a nice perk for faculty but during a massive budget crisis it became obvious that people were taking advantage of the policy.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Feb 8, 2021 8:51:00 GMT -5
This is an accounting issue. First off, tracking everyone's vacation and calculating a liability that needs to be carried on the balance sheet is expensive. And if you go to "unlimited" after a period of time, you can release that accrual and take the amount as profit. Also, with a stated amount of time, employers are obligated to pay out the time per their policy. If they give everyone their vacation time on Jan 1 - and someone quits on Jan 3, they should get the full payout. Even if the company only give it proportional each paycheck, you can bank a few weeks and get a check upon leaving. Getting rid of that work, payout and liability is bigger than most people imagine, especially when you get to a company the size of (say) GE. It does push that responsibility onto managers. Managers probably still track your time, and if you take too much time, it will probably reflect poorly on you. Just as I have never taken a two consecutive week vacation, even though technically there is no reason I couldn't. But it would puss off a bunch of people. So, cheaper for the company, no real change for the employee and slightly more responsibility (and authority) for the manager. I'm still wondering why any company still has structured vacation policies. During the 2008 crash and recession I worked in the Dean's Office for a university. The faculty were allowed to carry over sick and vacation days and I remember the discussions (really complaining) about retiring professors who were claiming never to have taken a sick day in 30 years. It was a nice perk for faculty but during a massive budget crisis it became obvious that people were taking advantage of the policy. How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Feb 8, 2021 8:56:41 GMT -5
During the 2008 crash and recession I worked in the Dean's Office for a university. The faculty were allowed to carry over sick and vacation days and I remember the discussions (really complaining) about retiring professors who were claiming never to have taken a sick day in 30 years. It was a nice perk for faculty but during a massive budget crisis it became obvious that people were taking advantage of the policy. How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules. Because no-one actually believed they had never been sick in 30 years. Professors can re-schedule classes or not have office hours or not be teaching in a particular semester, etc. It's not like an office job where you have to show up every day but they were still supposed to record when they were not working because they were sick. And, that policy only applied to faculty not university staff who had to be in the office and log sick time when they were actually sick.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Feb 8, 2021 10:10:02 GMT -5
I am retired from the federal government. At the end I received 26 days of vacation a year and 13 days of seek leave. 240 hours of annual leave could be carried over to the next year.
Once I got mine built up, I never lost any leave. Had to be careful around Christmas because we never knew if we would get time off on Christmas Eve or how many hours. Balance at retirement was paid out. I don't know what happened to it if you quit.
Sick leave was figured in to retirement.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 8, 2021 10:42:57 GMT -5
During the 2008 crash and recession I worked in the Dean's Office for a university. The faculty were allowed to carry over sick and vacation days and I remember the discussions (really complaining) about retiring professors who were claiming never to have taken a sick day in 30 years. It was a nice perk for faculty but during a massive budget crisis it became obvious that people were taking advantage of the policy. How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules. Were they? If someone did not work one day and did not record it as a sick day or vacation day - did they really follow the rules?
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Feb 8, 2021 11:01:51 GMT -5
How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules. Because no-one actually believed they had never been sick in 30 years. Professors can re-schedule classes or not have office hours or not be teaching in a particular semester, etc. It's not like an office job where you have to show up every day but they were still supposed to record when they were not working because they were sick. And, that policy only applied to faculty not university staff who had to be in the office and log sick time when they were actually sick. Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like the university needs/ed to tighten up its rules. I think this has probably happened more often in 2020/2021 while people were working at home.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Feb 8, 2021 11:05:31 GMT -5
How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules. Were they? If someone did not work one day and did not record it as a sick day or vacation day - did they really follow the rules? Do companies follow rules when they "require" more than 40-hour work weeks? IMO, the more companies create an environment that bends the "rules" in their favor, the more employees should feel free to do the same.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 8, 2021 11:08:08 GMT -5
How could they take advantage of one of their benefits? They were playing within the rules. Because no-one actually believed they had never been sick in 30 years. Professors can re-schedule classes or not have office hours or not be teaching in a particular semester, etc. It's not like an office job where you have to show up every day but they were still supposed to record when they were not working because they were sick. And, that policy only applied to faculty not university staff who had to be in the office and log sick time when they were actually sick. The professors have a different kind of contract, it's based on getting the work done, not on how long it takes. The plan isn't to make them give up stuff, it's to get the same kind of benefits for everyone else. Or said another way, don't pull them down, pull everyone else up.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Feb 8, 2021 11:17:34 GMT -5
We went from separate buckets of vacation/personal/sick days to one giant PTO bucket (time earned depending on how long you've worked here). I now have nearly eight weeks of PTO each year and I use it. I plot out my calendar and it's not anything too ridiculous, outside of the 2 or more weeks I take off in December to use up time. Lots of long weekends and one or two week-long vacations. I imagine if we moved to unlimited PTO I would keep my routine pretty much the same. I appreciate being able to take a long weekend each month, and then some.
I think unlimited PTO could be a mutually beneficial thing, if the company culture actually appreciates work-life balance. Easier accounting for the company and hopefully less plotting and stressing about time for the employee. But I think I am coming at it from the mindset of someone with generous time available.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Feb 8, 2021 11:42:07 GMT -5
Because no-one actually believed they had never been sick in 30 years. Professors can re-schedule classes or not have office hours or not be teaching in a particular semester, etc. It's not like an office job where you have to show up every day but they were still supposed to record when they were not working because they were sick. And, that policy only applied to faculty not university staff who had to be in the office and log sick time when they were actually sick. The professors have a different kind of contract, it's based on getting the work done, not on how long it takes. The plan isn't to make them give up stuff, it's to get the same kind of benefits for everyone else. Or said another way, don't pull them down, pull everyone else up.Are you suggesting that to make it equitable, the staff should have been able not to report their time off? Just making up some numbers for an example: 5 sick days = 40 hours x 30 years = 1,200 hours. If a professor is retiring making $100,000 their hourly rate would be roughly $48 x 1,200 hours = $57,600. Now, I know that not all professors work the full 30 years or make $100,000 when they retire but when you're talking about ~14,000 professors across the university system then that's a huge liability (although not annually). And that is just for sick pay.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 8, 2021 11:45:43 GMT -5
The professors have a different kind of contract, it's based on getting the work done, not on how long it takes. The plan isn't to make them give up stuff, it's to get the same kind of benefits for everyone else. Or said another way, don't pull them down, pull everyone else up.Are you suggesting that to make it equitable, the staff should have been able not to report their time off? Just making up some numbers for an example: 5 sick days = 40 hours x 30 years = 1,200 hours. If a professor is retiring making $100,000 their hourly rate would be roughly $48 x 1,200 hours = $57,600. Now, I know that not all professors work the full 30 years or make $100,000 when they retire but when you're talking about ~14,000 professors across the university system then that's a huge liability (although not annually). And that is just for sick pay. It's nothing compared to what the President of the University would get, or what CEO's get, or the pensions politician's walk away with. If the system can afford that stuff it can afford to be generous with the lower rungs as well. Really, why are people so good at the math for what the middle class or lower income folks get but suck so bad at figuring out the chunks of their money going to the wealthy?
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