laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 4, 2021 19:46:10 GMT -5
Correction it was rushed through clinicals and onto the market. What do you need to know about the vaccine that we don’t, since you believe it was rushed? The trials were completed. Short term side effects are known, and no different than any other vaccine. To know more about long term side effects requires more time. While we do that, people like me and my coworkers remain at high risk without a vaccine. 450,000 Americans and 32 million worldwide have died from this. All waiting does is allows the numbers to get worse and lets the virus mutate into more dangerous forms. All of these decisions require risk benefit calculations. The idea that a vaccine causes side effects that the infection does not is not something that science would support First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 4, 2021 20:21:34 GMT -5
What do you need to know about the vaccine that we don’t, since you believe it was rushed? The trials were completed. Short term side effects are known, and no different than any other vaccine. To know more about long term side effects requires more time. While we do that, people like me and my coworkers remain at high risk without a vaccine. 450,000 Americans and 32 million worldwide have died from this. All waiting does is allows the numbers to get worse and lets the virus mutate into more dangerous forms. All of these decisions require risk benefit calculations. The idea that a vaccine causes side effects that the infection does not is not something that science would support First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine. Never said we know everything. We know enough. To know more requires time. Time is the enemy. To get the information you desire is worth how many deaths? 10k, 100k, 250k? We know the short term side effects. Long term side effects will not be known for1+ years. In that time, there will be a minimum of 1 million more deaths and ongoing economic damage. The decision about how and when to approve the use of the vaccine requires consideration of safety and efficacy vs living the way we are. What you are witnessing is science as it is done. It is messy, and progresses is fits and starts. Sorry you don’t like it, but this is reality
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 4, 2021 20:33:48 GMT -5
First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine. Never said we know everything. We know enough. To know more requires time. Time is the enemy. To get the information you desire is worth how many deaths? 10k, 100k, 250k? We know the short term side effects. Long term side effects will not be known for1+ years. In that time, there will be a minimum of 1 million more deaths and ongoing economic damage. The decision about how and when to approve the use of the vaccine requires consideration of safety and efficacy vs living the way we are. What you are witnessing is science as it is done. It is messy, and progresses is fits and starts. Sorry you don’t like it, but this is reality All I'm reading you say is basically fuck off with my concerns and don't even mention them. Other things I have read and bother me include the fact that the vaccines don't actually stop you from getting Covid and passing it on and they don't know how long it works for. Excuse me but these strike me as minimal things that should be known.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 4, 2021 21:17:44 GMT -5
Never said we know everything. We know enough. To know more requires time. Time is the enemy. To get the information you desire is worth how many deaths? 10k, 100k, 250k? We know the short term side effects. Long term side effects will not be known for1+ years. In that time, there will be a minimum of 1 million more deaths and ongoing economic damage. The decision about how and when to approve the use of the vaccine requires consideration of safety and efficacy vs living the way we are. What you are witnessing is science as it is done. It is messy, and progresses is fits and starts. Sorry you don’t like it, but this is reality All I'm reading you say is basically fuck off with my concerns and don't even mention them. Other things I have read and bother me include the fact that the vaccines don't actually stop you from getting Covid and passing it on and they don't know how long it works for. Excuse me but these strike me as minimal things that should be known. Then maybe you should stop reading and listen to people who know more than you, like walk and drama
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Feb 4, 2021 21:29:29 GMT -5
No vaccine is 100%. I think that is an unrealistic expectation.
As for stopping transmission, yes, I really wish we knew that for sure but the fact they don't know yet is not a compelling enough reason to me not to get vaccinated.
Waiting to see how long it works before putting it on the market will cause many, many more deaths. We don't have that kind of time. I guess I am willing to be a test subject to help find out that information.
In general, I know nothing...these are comments from someone with a non-science background, but as a person that isn't a medical professional but works with a ton of them I choose to trust those that know more than me.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 4, 2021 21:34:02 GMT -5
Vaccines first and foremost need to prevent severe disease and deaths. Given the disaster unfolding, that is good enough. Preventing infections will likely slow transmission, and the AstraZeneca vaccine now has data to support it. I am not sure what the issue is
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 4, 2021 23:00:09 GMT -5
What do you need to know about the vaccine that we don’t, since you believe it was rushed? The trials were completed. Short term side effects are known, and no different than any other vaccine. To know more about long term side effects requires more time. While we do that, people like me and my coworkers remain at high risk without a vaccine. 450,000 Americans and 32 million worldwide have died from this. All waiting does is allows the numbers to get worse and lets the virus mutate into more dangerous forms. All of these decisions require risk benefit calculations. The idea that a vaccine causes side effects that the infection does not is not something that science would support First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine. If later prefers to wait on getting vacinated, then only one person is in greater danger of getting covid and maybe dying, and since there isn't enough to go around even for those of us who want it, I don't see any issue with Later choosing to get to the back of the line if she wants and see what other info might come out by then. Plenty are ready to jump to the front and it doesn't affect the timeline at all. If we end up with 25% going full anti-vax on it, would not be good, but we can't force people to take it, and later is only wanting to see some more data for her own personal decision. No reason to go all "oh the humanity!" about it. And 32 million deaths worldwide? check your sources....
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 5, 2021 7:09:03 GMT -5
If a large portion of the population decides the same, herd immunity becomes unattainable.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 5, 2021 7:32:10 GMT -5
First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine. If later prefers to wait on getting vacinated, then only one person is in greater danger of getting covid and maybe dying, and since there isn't enough to go around even for those of us who want it, I don't see any issue with Later choosing to get to the back of the line if she wants and see what other info might come out by then. Plenty are ready to jump to the front and it doesn't affect the timeline at all. If we end up with 25% going full anti-vax on it, would not be good, but we can't force people to take it, and later is only wanting to see some more data for her own personal decision. No reason to go all "oh the humanity!" about it. And 32 million deaths worldwide? check your sources.... Need to check my posts better, should have been 2-3 million. I have no issue with her waiting. But in 3 months, when supplies better match demand, will she get it then? Because the information about the vaccine is not likely to be much different. Still under a year since the first people were vaccinated, and she may be offered a new vaccine, with the same issues we have now. She also has an issue with how the information changes. Blame the internet. What we are seeing now is how science and medicine work. It is messy, even chaotic at times. This is no different than what we went through with hiv. Except, there was no internet. So bad stuffydies with dubious conclusions were not as widely circulated, and information that was had to undergo more scrutiny before it was published. There were many crackpot ideas then, just like we see now. Activist were clamoring from r the release of treatments, and the establishment wanted more information before doing so. Now, things get disseminated and used before we have that information, and people are unhappy about that
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 5, 2021 8:40:54 GMT -5
So what do you want? Between the three posters here talking we've got at least 30 years experience, an MS, an MD and a bachelor's. We are dismissed. We are part of the problem.
I have posted and shared several papers on the topic of mRNA vaccines. I was told that the summary paper wasn't good enough because it was published in 2012 (even though the material they sourced goes back to the 70s). The HIV paper I posted doesn't count because it's HIV. The flu paper I posted doesn't count because it's the flu even though both the work in HIV and the flu was used as a template for corona.
Dr. Fauci has stated numerous times to get the damn vaccine even in light of new mutations and explained why it is still important. Apparently he also doesn't know what he is talking about? Is he the King mamba of the science conspiracy cabal?
What exactly is enough? There are no truths or absolutes in science. If you want that look to religion. Science deals with the real world which is messy and complicated. Science has to evolve over time. In the past 5-10 years we have now learned omeprazole and lansoprazole two common heartburn drugs cause alzheimers. We have learned that ART therapy causes heart disease in HIV patients because now we've had people live long enough to collect that data. Pap smear recommendations have been modified due to the number of false negatives. Mammogram recommendations are changing due to the fact that they don't catch most malignant cancers and have also lead to excessive treatment.
I am sure there is more. If you are looking for all the long term answers I suggest you avoid modern medicine all together because nobody knows what will come down the pike in 5, 10, 20 years regarding whatever treatment you seek.
Do I sound insulting? I don't really care because I am sick and tired of being told that my entire profession is a money grubbing lie and that any expertise in it doesn't matter because YOU don't feel like it is enough. How would you like it if I came to your job and listed all the mistakes and wrongdoings ever done? Then reject any evidence you give me that things changed? Tell you that you don't understand your own profession and that clearly you are too close to the issue to understand the importance of what I am saying to you. That you are being dismissive of me acting like you know something more than I do.
Since March of 2020 I have listened to people bitch about what doesn't science do anything? Why can't science help us? Why can't medicine help us? Now you have not one, not two but THREE fucking miracles of science land in your lap and it is STILL not good enough!
Go ahead and wait I don't give a fuck. What I give a fuck about is it's not just YOU. This is a worldwide public health crisis. If enough people decide that their independent choices matter more than everyone else we will never get out of this. Which is again everyone's right but I would appreciate it then if I don't hear one fucking word about science "not doing enough" to solve the problem. I don't want to hear one peep about wanting to be back to normal. You chose waiting it out over that and that is something you need to accept.
And this is the same vein of argument that people use against masks. It's their choice to decide if they want to put themselves and others at risk not wearing a mask. They don't feel there is enough evidence to support wearing masks in public therefore chose not to. You can't argue that they have to sacrifice for the public good if you are not willing to.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 5, 2021 11:46:54 GMT -5
So what do you want? Between the three posters here talking we've got at least 30 years experience, an MS, an MD and a bachelor's. We are dismissed. We are part of the problem. I have posted and shared several papers on the topic of mRNA vaccines. I was told that the summary paper wasn't good enough because it was published in 2012 (even though the material they sourced goes back to the 70s). The HIV paper I posted doesn't count because it's HIV. The flu paper I posted doesn't count because it's the flu even though both the work in HIV and the flu was used as a template for corona. Dr. Fauci has stated numerous times to get the damn vaccine even in light of new mutations and explained why it is still important. Apparently he also doesn't know what he is talking about? Is he the King mamba of the science conspiracy cabal? What exactly is enough? There are no truths or absolutes in science. If you want that look to religion. Science deals with the real world which is messy and complicated. Science has to evolve over time. In the past 5-10 years we have now learned omeprazole and lansoprazole two common heartburn drugs cause alzheimers. We have learned that ART therapy causes heart disease in HIV patients because now we've had people live long enough to collect that data. Pap smear recommendations have been modified due to the number of false negatives. Mammogram recommendations are changing due to the fact that they don't catch most malignant cancers and have also lead to excessive treatment. I am sure there is more. If you are looking for all the long term answers I suggest you avoid modern medicine all together because nobody knows what will come down the pike in 5, 10, 20 years regarding whatever treatment you seek. Do I sound insulting? I don't really care because I am sick and tired of being told that my entire profession is a money grubbing lie and that any expertise in it doesn't matter because YOU don't feel like it is enough. How would you like it if I came to your job and listed all the mistakes and wrongdoings ever done? Then reject any evidence you give me that things changed? Tell you that you don't understand your own profession and that clearly you are too close to the issue to understand the importance of what I am saying to you. That you are being dismissive of me acting like you know something more than I do. Since March of 2020 I have listened to people bitch about what doesn't science do anything? Why can't science help us? Why can't medicine help us? Now you have not one, not two but THREE fucking miracles of science land in your lap and it is STILL not good enough! Go ahead and wait I don't give a fuck. What I give a fuck about is it's not just YOU. This is a worldwide public health crisis. If enough people decide that their independent choices matter more than everyone else we will never get out of this. Which is again everyone's right but I would appreciate it then if I don't hear one fucking word about science "not doing enough" to solve the problem. I don't want to hear one peep about wanting to be back to normal. You chose waiting it out over that and that is something you need to accept. And this is the same vein of argument that people use against masks. It's their choice to decide if they want to put themselves and others at risk not wearing a mask. They don't feel there is enough evidence to support wearing masks in public therefore chose not to. You can't argue that they have to sacrifice for the public good if you are not willing to. Beautifully said, NomoreDramaQ1015.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 5, 2021 12:46:56 GMT -5
So what do you want? Between the three posters here talking we've got at least 30 years experience, an MS, an MD and a bachelor's. We are dismissed. We are part of the problem. I have posted and shared several papers on the topic of mRNA vaccines. I was told that the summary paper wasn't good enough because it was published in 2012 (even though the material they sourced goes back to the 70s). The HIV paper I posted doesn't count because it's HIV. The flu paper I posted doesn't count because it's the flu even though both the work in HIV and the flu was used as a template for corona. Dr. Fauci has stated numerous times to get the damn vaccine even in light of new mutations and explained why it is still important. Apparently he also doesn't know what he is talking about? Is he the King mamba of the science conspiracy cabal? What exactly is enough? There are no truths or absolutes in science. If you want that look to religion. Science deals with the real world which is messy and complicated. Science has to evolve over time. In the past 5-10 years we have now learned omeprazole and lansoprazole two common heartburn drugs cause alzheimers. We have learned that ART therapy causes heart disease in HIV patients because now we've had people live long enough to collect that data. Pap smear recommendations have been modified due to the number of false negatives. Mammogram recommendations are changing due to the fact that they don't catch most malignant cancers and have also lead to excessive treatment. I am sure there is more. If you are looking for all the long term answers I suggest you avoid modern medicine all together because nobody knows what will come down the pike in 5, 10, 20 years regarding whatever treatment you seek. Do I sound insulting? I don't really care because I am sick and tired of being told that my entire profession is a money grubbing lie and that any expertise in it doesn't matter because YOU don't feel like it is enough. How would you like it if I came to your job and listed all the mistakes and wrongdoings ever done? Then reject any evidence you give me that things changed? Tell you that you don't understand your own profession and that clearly you are too close to the issue to understand the importance of what I am saying to you. That you are being dismissive of me acting like you know something more than I do. Since March of 2020 I have listened to people bitch about what doesn't science do anything? Why can't science help us? Why can't medicine help us? Now you have not one, not two but THREE fucking miracles of science land in your lap and it is STILL not good enough! Go ahead and wait I don't give a fuck. What I give a fuck about is it's not just YOU. This is a worldwide public health crisis. If enough people decide that their independent choices matter more than everyone else we will never get out of this. Which is again everyone's right but I would appreciate it then if I don't hear one fucking word about science "not doing enough" to solve the problem. I don't want to hear one peep about wanting to be back to normal. You chose waiting it out over that and that is something you need to accept. And this is the same vein of argument that people use against masks. It's their choice to decide if they want to put themselves and others at risk not wearing a mask. They don't feel there is enough evidence to support wearing masks in public therefore chose not to. You can't argue that they have to sacrifice for the public good if you are not willing to. Don't hold me responsible for everything anyone that ever annoyed you has to say. I have not said any of the things you are ranting about. And quit carrying on like science has never made any drastic mistakes. And you know what? I don't feel personally responsible for the world achieving herd immunity. I already pay more in taxes so that people with serious health issues recieve very expensive treatments and people with little to no quality of life are kept alive in old age. I really feel I've done my share. I wear masks. social distance, stay home and sanitize. So you all can just screw off with your holier than thou attitude because I'm not bowing at the alter of your "science".
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 5, 2021 12:47:48 GMT -5
First, I never told anyone else not to take it. Second, I refer you back to my first comment about not liking how often the info changes. You have fluctuated between telling me science never knows what it's talking about and changes hypothesis all the time with new info and the saying the opposite, that we know everything about Covid and the vaccine. If later prefers to wait on getting vacinated, then only one person is in greater danger of getting covid and maybe dying, and since there isn't enough to go around even for those of us who want it, I don't see any issue with Later choosing to get to the back of the line if she wants and see what other info might come out by then. Plenty are ready to jump to the front and it doesn't affect the timeline at all. If we end up with 25% going full anti-vax on it, would not be good, but we can't force people to take it, and later is only wanting to see some more data for her own personal decision. No reason to go all "oh the humanity!" about it. And 32 million deaths worldwide? check your sources.... THANK YOU!!
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 5, 2021 12:55:42 GMT -5
Science is what will get us out of this mess. Your welcome
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 5, 2021 13:59:34 GMT -5
So what do you want? Between the three posters here talking we've got at least 30 years experience, an MS, an MD and a bachelor's. We are dismissed. We are part of the problem. what on earth are you talking about? I can't even read past this. what does dismissed mean to you? and who has accused you of being part of the problem? If anything, Later was being dismissed and accused of being part of the problem! How many quotes of death tolls were flung at her when she is only talking about her individual choice and desired level of information. And in angry, arrogant, pontificating terms I might add. If there was a desire to persuade, talking down to someone really isn't the most effective mode.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 5, 2021 14:12:54 GMT -5
I said absolutely none of that. Then I misunderstood what you did say. I said it takes time to get data.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 5, 2021 14:36:11 GMT -5
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 20, 2021 15:39:34 GMT -5
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 20, 2021 16:00:18 GMT -5
This makes sense, immunologically. However, you'd probably want to make sure that the person had actually gotten a primary immune response through disease. From my understanding and the things that I have read, mild cases may not elicit much of a systemic immune response. This is why I suspect that some people have gotten COVID twice. If even mild cases elicit a decent immune response, this would be great. I wish the article had defined the patient groups and extent of disease (or the article had referenced back to the original paper). This article suggests that a lot of mild COVID cases are seronegative, which means that there needs to be a decision made as to whether or not getting COVID elicited enough of an immune response in the first place, which would mean that the person really did need 2 doses in order to get effective immunity. www.newswise.com/coronavirus/new-study-finds-reinfection-by-sars-cov-2-in-healthy-young-adults-is-common/?article_id=745403
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Feb 20, 2021 16:57:05 GMT -5
My sister tested positive for Covid last summer. She had a mild case. She was hoping to donate plasma but when she was tested, she had no antibodies.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 20, 2021 17:26:30 GMT -5
My sister tested positive for Covid last summer. She had a mild case. She was hoping to donate plasma but when she was tested, she had no antibodies. I suspect your sister might also be susceptible to getting COVID a second time too. If she had no antibodies, to me this means that her non specific immunity took care of the virus and didn't give her immune system the opportunity to 'see' it. Because her immune system hasn't been primed with the virus, then she'll need the 2 doses of vaccine. You get the excellent response from one vaccination when your immune system has already been primed. I think a lot of people are going to fall into this category, which means that they are going to have to determine another variable in order to figure this out. Since many lose antibody months following the disease, it will not be an easy determination.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Feb 20, 2021 18:52:06 GMT -5
She has already had the 1st vaccine and is scheduled for her 2nd vaccine.
Nephew was presumed by his doctor to have had covid in March last year. He was much sicker than sister but not tested due to the shortage of testing back then. He also tested negative for antibodies. At the moment, he doesn't fall in any categories to get vaccinated here.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Feb 21, 2021 12:44:50 GMT -5
We are getting one shot ...... the AZ vaccine gets better if you wait 12 weeks ...and the Pfizer one, although not supposed to be for 12 week intervals.... seems to be doing fine.
We'll get a second dose after 3 months. What the heck, its working.... our infection rate is dropping fast.
More people getting at least some protection this way..... (and the two shots is for longer lasting more durable protection)
I think we'll be getting a third shot of a modified (to suit the new variants) vaccine in the Autumn.
Both the US and the UK are doing just fine for vaccine roll out.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 21, 2021 19:35:10 GMT -5
chicago has only a 4% vaccination rate. Not open to regular joes until summer....
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 21, 2021 22:03:36 GMT -5
chicago has only a 4% vaccination rate. Not open to regular joes until summer.... Chicago is just under 11% for first dosage, though. Not great but much better than the rate for fully immunized. My county is also at 11% if the local stats are to be believed. I say that because the total vaccinations per the CDC website does not agree to the pa website, so I might have been looking at older data (there was no date on it but it’s a dashboard so it should be current).
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Feb 21, 2021 22:18:40 GMT -5
My county is at 14% for one dose. The counties around us are doing better though. They're all at about 20%. One is 25% with at least one dose and 16% fully vaccinated. I have to quit checking it daily.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Feb 22, 2021 9:46:28 GMT -5
The state of Iowa doesn't show the % vaccinated on their dashboard.
They also tossed in all tests given rather than 1st test as they had been showing for months last week. So if a person has taken a covid test more than once that gets counted when determining the positivity %. It didn't two weeks ago. Of course that significantly reduced the positivity rate. It also happened to coincide with the date the new law went in to effect that says schools must be 100% in person.
The people of Iowa would tell you we are not doing well with getting vaccinated. That is because it is so difficult to find an appointment. Most places are saying don't call us, we'll call you. The drug store program is all appointments made online only and no waiting lists.
After many, many complaints from elderly people who have no way to make an appointment online, my county set up a phone number where people can leave a call back number.
There is no statewide phone number.
The governor has decided not to do either an online registration site or to set up a statewide phone number for people who can't make appointments online.
I consider myself lucky that I happened to be refreshing when a bunch of appointments showed up and I got appointments for both shots.
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ajmom
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Post by ajmom on Feb 27, 2021 14:53:29 GMT -5
I’m way at end of list to get the shot. The very last group! My only consolation is maybe by that time they will figure out how to distribute it to the last group, so we won’t have to be tied to the computer at 3 am, and we can just get it done on a walk-in basis at Doctor or CVS.
I think it’s a miracle we have so many vaccines. I never considered we would have such a difficult time at distributing it. In my state, which is fairly progressive, a certain group is now “eligible”, but wait, not really, they are two groups behind those getting the vaccine.
I figure maybe I will get first dose by June or July?
We have to immunize all counties though, or this thing will go round and round. I realize we will all have to get boosters, and that’s ok with me.
We will get there.
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Rukh O'Rorke
Junior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 9,985
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 27, 2021 15:04:38 GMT -5
so - was getting happy at seeing the % of people in chicago vaccinated go up, but now they have it by zip code. Some zip codes have more than 20% vacinated, others only 2-4%. a few less than 1%. Likely a lot of doctors in those high priced zip codes, but the optics are not good.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 27, 2021 15:26:12 GMT -5
so - was getting happy at seeing the % of people in chicago vaccinated go up, but now they have it by zip code. Some zip codes have more than 20% vacinated, others only 2-4%. a few less than 1%. Likely a lot of doctors in those high priced zip codes, but the optics are not good. There also might be nursing homes, assisted living facilities or hospitals in some of those zip codes too. I really wouldn’t assume anything. I know that in this city, several nursing homes and AL facilities are in the same area (and fairly close to the hospital too).
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