nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 30, 2021 19:09:43 GMT -5
www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2019/11/18/colleges-need-prepare-great-enrollment-crash-opinionThis article from Nov 2019 is even more relevant now. With the hoops that past students have jumped through to stand out and those hoops having been eliminated in this COVID world, fewer HS graduates will attend college. My college has 900 full-time students the year I graduated. It has since been bought by a larger state college. I imagine more transactions like that are to come for many smaller institutions. How awesome would it be if students could pick and choose which courses they took within a system of colleges. Example, if all the state college students in California could choose from courses at UC Berkely, UC San Fran, UC San Diego, etc? All at the same time.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 30, 2021 19:35:04 GMT -5
And how awesome would it be if students could pick and choose which courses to take from whom based on the standard of performance expected? It would take professor shopping to a whole new level.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 20:25:45 GMT -5
The entire educational system at all levels is going to have to take a good look at how they do things. They never really adapted to on-line learning except as a sort of side business (other than U of Phoenix, which seems to be a diploma not taken that seriously) and held dear their large lecture halls, mega-high schools and tenured instructors.
If it was OK to switch to learning at home with a teacher on-line in the same town, why not a teacher in London or Delhi? Why not a French literature teacher in Paris or a discussion group on Chaucer with students at Oxford? How many classrooms are REALLY needed?
Some things probably have to be done in-person such as labs and a lot of the curriculum for training doctors, nurses, dentists, veterinarians, etc. (contact with patients) but why not Zoom from home for the rest?
And then cut expenses by mothballing all the unneeded edifices.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 30, 2021 20:39:52 GMT -5
Enrollment is crazy high this year. It's up 20-30% at a lot of schools. I'm assuming due to so many taking this year off and due to the test optional policy at a lot of schools where students might have not bothered at before.
As for the current online format, while some might like it, many are not happy at all. My son said the students are complaining to each other constantly about how disconnected they feel from everything.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 30, 2021 21:00:15 GMT -5
Enrollment is crazy high this year. It's up 20-30% at a lot of schools. I'm assuming due to so many taking this year off and due to the test optional policy at a lot of schools where students might have not bothered at before. As for the current online format, while some might like it, many are not happy at all. My son said the students are complaining to each other constantly about how disconnected they feel from everything. It's definitely not the "college experience" if all students do is get on Zoom. No Student Org activities. No frat parties. No Student Gov events. I cannot tell you how glad I am that I graduated a full semester before the world shut down. Even when I go back to Grad School...if it's not in-person for most of it, I'm not going. My GIBill has no expiration...I'm in NOOOO hurry to go back to school in this online environment.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jan 31, 2021 8:55:00 GMT -5
My niece is not doing well with online college. She is having a lot of issues trying to learn science and math. Things like chemistry and biology are much better in person. Especially, since labs are interesting (to me anyway).
She is also struggling with depression as she feels so disconnected from everyone.
Online may work for the 40 year old that is working full time and needs lots of flexibility. I'm not sure how well it is working for your average 20 year old though.
And can I just say how tired I personally am of zoom...truly I've had enough. I am zoomed out...
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 9:52:44 GMT -5
My son describes it as all of the bad things about college and none of the fun parts, and he's not a social butterfly by any means. It's just getting to be so much watching Zoom class after Zoom class day in and day out. Last week he was looking into counseling because he feels just so exhausted. I asked him Friday if he'd done that and he said he was going to but realized that meant yet another Zoom meeting. I hope he makes it through this semester. It just started and he already seems really down.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 31, 2021 9:58:08 GMT -5
My son describes it as all of the bad things about college and none of the fun parts, and he's not a social butterfly by any means. It's just getting to be so much watching Zoom class after Zoom class day in and day out. Last week he was looking into counseling because he feels just so exhausted. I asked him Friday if he'd done that and he said he was going to but realized that meant yet another Zoom meeting. I hope he makes it through this semester. It just started and he already seems really down. What terrible irony. I just started counseling last week and, yeah, it was a video appt. Not Zoom, per se, but just as Kleenex has become synonymous for anything that is a tissue and all cotton swabs are Q-tips, every video is now "Zoom".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 10:11:46 GMT -5
Zoom is after my time, but in 2007 I received an online degree in Library & information Science from the University of Alabama. I was impressed. We were very much connected as in we were in a real class interacting with the instructor for 3 hours once a week. It was real-time. If I recall correctly, the software was Blackboard. My classmates were from all over the country. We did all the things you do in a traditional class from tests to groupwork to presentations. The instructor shared his/her desktop with us to show us videos, powerpoints, etc. We had microphones and could raise our hands to ask questions, etc.
The model is called synchronous education as opposed to asynchronous, which consists of modules that students complete on their own schedule. Done right, the synchronous model is pretty close to traditional classrooms. I am not sure why it hasn't caught on more.
Or has it? Is that what Zoom is like?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 31, 2021 10:22:58 GMT -5
Neither of my kids are thriving with online classes, and they are very different learners. I do agree that things will evolve due to what we learned in 2020 - but I am not convinced being a completely online society is the inevitable or healthy end game. Or maybe it is.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 31, 2021 10:50:04 GMT -5
Boring board and life this early a.m. so storytelling time. At least with on line classes you don't risk getting slapped! Early 1980's Ed psych class at public university, discussion topic: "Do public schools teach American white middle class values?" I was on the side they do. After awhile, a student arguing the opposite frustratingly said, "Well everyone has a right to their own opinion." I said, "Talk about your American white middle class value. In much of the world, voicing the wrong opinion can get you killed." She growled and said "I just want to get up, march over there, and slap you." My response, with a big smile, "Yeah, but your white middle class values won't allow you to actually do it." Fortunately I was correct, at least on that last point.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 11:06:26 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 31, 2021 11:17:07 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
Wow, back in the day 15 hours of class time a week in a semester system was a standard load. 18 was heavy and I think you needed special permission for 21. I guess labs added a little more. I didn't take many classes that required them.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 11:23:53 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
Wow, back in the day 15 hours of class time a week in a semester system was a standard load. 18 was heavy and I think you needed special permission for 21. I guess labs added a little more. I didn't take many classes that required them. He has four 4 credit classes, and they all have required lecture, lab and discussion zoom times...well, Calc doesn't have a lab time I guess.
eta: Added it up. Two of the classes meet 7 hours a week, one 6 and one 5, so 25 hours total class time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 11:27:10 GMT -5
It's definitely not the "college experience" if all students do is get on Zoom. No Student Org activities. No frat parties. No Student Gov events. I cannot tell you how glad I am that I graduated a full semester before the world shut down. Even when I go back to Grad School...if it's not in-person for most of it, I'm not going. My GIBill has no expiration...I'm in NOOOO hurry to go back to school in this online environment. Yeah, when I look at it from the perspective of someone who was fortunate enough to go away to college for 4 years (and I'm saving because I want my grandchildren to have that option), 100% on-line looks pretty arid. I hope we can find a good balance between in-person and on-line that will make education more cost-effective and provide a wider variety of ways to learn.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 31, 2021 11:39:54 GMT -5
The online classes I took in college used blackboard, but they didn't include a live video component. I liked them because they were convenient and quick, but I don't think I could learn a complicated topic very well through that medium. I'm training on a new job tomorrow and Tuesday. I could've done it via WebEx, but opted to go into the office for it. It's simply easier to ask questions that way. Zoom might be different with that. I think it alerts comments better than WebEx does.
I get antsy after about 1/2 hour in a zoom meeting. It requires more concentration than being in person. I always take my laptop into another room away from my desk for meetings (not that you can do that in a dorm). I find that helps break up the day a bit.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 31, 2021 11:48:21 GMT -5
Wow, back in the day 15 hours of class time a week in a semester system was a standard load. 18 was heavy and I think you needed special permission for 21. I guess labs added a little more. I didn't take many classes that required them. He has four 4 credit classes, and they all have required lecture, lab and discussion zoom times...well, Calc doesn't have a lab time I guess.
eta: Added it up. Two of the classes meet 7 hours a week, one 6 and one 5, so 25 hours total class time.
Thank you for the clarification. I was adding up hours from your previous post and getting over 30. 25 still sounds like a lot but with labs and mandatory(?) discussion times that makes more sense.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 31, 2021 11:50:10 GMT -5
I think zoom meetings and virtual medicine suck. The amount I can do on line for a visit is vastly limited. I have a college senior. His education has markedly decreased in quality. For introductory courses, and graduate level or people who have more life experience, on line education has some value. But if you want to learn or solve problems, there is no substitute for meeting in person, IMHO. And going away to school allows you to interact with your classmates outside of the classroom. I remember many discussions that led to better understanding of a topic or looking at a problem in a new way. Right now, too little of that happens.
Even in my day job, the decrease in in person interaction has led to miscommunication, misunderstanding, and not getting the full picture of a patient’s problem. With time, that may improve, but there is a severe learning curve
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 31, 2021 11:54:23 GMT -5
I've taken online classes and while it was handy as an adult working full.time it wasn't all cake and roses.
I really struggled in Immunology and I was never able to catch the professor because being online only she didn't have traditional office hours.
Being on campus and being able to hang out waiting by their office door is so much easier. I would have failed Ochem if I hadn't been able to stalk my professor.
It was the same with all the tools I needed including test taking. Was it the end of the world? No but I MUCH prefer walking a couple campus blocks in a blizzard than driving across town hoping I make the test in time.
There are classes that just translate better in person. Some professors are better in person. I can't see it going to 100% online.
I could see more hybrid options. It would be nice if say your college offers a required course every other semester if you could take it online anytime or elsewhere leaving you more flexibility in choosing classes.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jan 31, 2021 12:06:57 GMT -5
Since I think there is going to be a huge shift to WFH jobs, a lot of them requiring college degrees, maybe all the online classes is just preparing them for the real world of work. The days of large numbers of people going to work in an office building just to sit in front of a computer are a thing of the past.
ODS is an actuary and is WFH and doesn’t think he will ever go back to office. YDS is WFH 90%, rest is inspecting houses. YDS GF is a Financial analyst and is WFH. They are all in 20s and college graduates.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 31, 2021 12:20:16 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the # of credits translated to # of hours for classroom time. Like, my last semester, I had 12 credits--two 50 minute classes, 3x/wk and two 1.25-hour classes 2x/wk.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jan 31, 2021 12:30:24 GMT -5
Since I think there is going to be a huge shift to WFH jobs, a lot of them requiring college degrees, maybe all the online classes is just preparing them for the real world of work. The days of large numbers of people going to work in an office building just to sit in front of a computer are a thing of the past. ODS is an actuary and is WFH and doesn’t think he will ever go back to office. YDS is WFH 90%, rest is inspecting houses. YDS GF is a Financial analyst and is WFH. They are all in 20s and college graduates. I don't think the WFH is going to be as big of a shift as originally thought. My guess is maybe 20% will remain at home but many CEO's are finding it doesn’t work for everyone. ETA: I do think flexibility will become the norm though. My office will remain 3 days in the office and 2 at home after the pandemic. One person out of our 10 person office may remain 100% at home. I will probably allow her to do it more for her ongoing health issues than anything. Personally, I hate 100% WFH. It's not a good thing for me...too isolating and too many distractions. 3 days in the office and 2 days at home is ideal for me. I also really benefit from seeing my staff at least a couple of days a week. We also have board in regularly and need an office space to meet. They have already started showing up at the office since they are all in healthcare and have been vaccinated.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 31, 2021 12:31:18 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the # of credits translated to # of hours for classroom time. Like, my last semester, I had 12 credits--two 50 minute classes, 3x/wk and two 1.25-hour classes 2x/wk. that is what I recall.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 13:05:18 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the # of credits translated to # of hours for classroom time. Like, my last semester, I had 12 credits--two 50 minute classes, 3x/wk and two 1.25-hour classes 2x/wk. This is one 4 credit class for my son.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Jan 31, 2021 13:42:12 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the # of credits translated to # of hours for classroom time. Like, my last semester, I had 12 credits--two 50 minute classes, 3x/wk and two 1.25-hour classes 2x/wk. This is one 4 credit class for my son.
That's insane! That should be a 7 credit course not just 4.
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pooks
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Post by pooks on Jan 31, 2021 14:33:09 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
My DD, who started college in fall 2020, is an isolation failure. She was so depressed by Thanksgiving that she moved back home. She also doesn't like online classes. She took half online in the Fall semester, because the school switched some of her in person classes to 100% online. Spring semester is 3/4 online, because very little was offered in person. She doesn't like it, but she is doing better than she was doing in the dorms.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 14:52:26 GMT -5
This is one 4 credit class for my son.
That's insane! That should be a 7 credit course not just 4. He has two of them just like that, one that is similar but lacking the discussion hour and a 4th that has 3 hours of lecture and 2 hours of discussion. The required class time takes up a huge chunk of his week.
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minnesotapaintlady
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jan 31, 2021 14:58:06 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
My DD, who started college in fall 2020, is an isolation failure. She was so depressed by Thanksgiving that she moved back home. She also doesn't like online classes. She took half online in the Fall semester, because the school switched some of her in person classes to 100% online. Spring semester is 3/4 online, because very little was offered in person. She doesn't like it, but she is doing better than she was doing in the dorms. My son came home at Thanksgiving too. They gave them all the option and he initially planned on staying, then decided he just wanted his cats and his own bed. He went back for Spring partially because they keep dangling the in-person carrot in front of him. Two of his classes are supposed to be a hybrid where he goes to actual class a couple times a week and one lab is supposed to be in person, but the first two weeks it hasn't happened yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 15:17:51 GMT -5
@bamafan1954 - All my son's classes are synchronous live. I think the majority of online classes are now.
I agree with movingforward that it's probably way different for an older person with a family to be taking online classes and they probably love the flexibility, but a lot of full time college students hate it (I know not ALL). I mean, was that 3 hour once a week class your only one? My son is in back to back online classes every day. Most days are 5-6 hours straight of zoom. Wednesday is 10 hours with a 2 hour break from 3:30-5:30. Then it's homework in the same room, on the same computer. His Chem and Physics lab experiments are also done in his dorm room. There's no walking between classes to get a little exercise during the day, no making friends from the class, no study groups (except Zoom ones). I get the physical isolation is the whole point, but I think it's really hard mentally on that age group.
No, I had two three-hour graduate courses each semester, and I worked a full-time job. I won't say that I "loved" it because the days were long and my weekends gone, but I did think it worked. Has college changed that dramatically, or is it just the curriculum your son has chosen? When I went to college (the first time . . . LOL), you usually took 15-16 hours. Except for a lab-based course which usually had a two-hour additional lab but counted as a four-hour course, that meant 15 hours of actually spread over 5 days. You often had 3-4 hours of class spread over an 8-hour day. That exercise between classes was a hustle because you only got 10 minutes between to walk across campus. As far as friends went, I made friends in the online classes, but we were a cohort so we all took our classes together for the two-year program. Another girl and I decided to take a weekend class, and we roomed together every Friday night for six weeks. I am still Facebook friends with several of them. But I'm not a teenage boy. I was taking the courses strictly to get the degree (which I never used) so friendship wasn't even a secondary goal. I can see where it would be for him.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jan 31, 2021 15:24:46 GMT -5
Yes, one of my niece's issues is that it is difficult to make friends.
I would have hated online as a college age student. First, I don't learn well that way.. second, college is SO much more than just academics (at least IMO).
I have 2 friends that went back to school in their 40's, while working. Online worked well for them.
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