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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:11:37 GMT -5
The engineering endgame of green power is reaching it's conclusion. Quote; The technical reason for the rolling blackouts was the California Independent System Operator (Cal-ISO) could not find enough power reserves from out-of-state hydropower suppliers after three in-state power plants had to shut down and wind power dropped as it typically does during the daytime.
The reason for the high demand for electricity is obviously the heat wave combined with humidity that spiked the temperature to 130-degrees in Death Valley. This resulted in a Stage 3 alert where mainline electric utilities had to ask customers to curtail use or they would start cutting power by rolling blackouts. The ISO asserted it was not grid congestion or downed power lines from wildfires, but a true lack of available power plants to come online when other plants failed, causing the shortage. Quote; Exacerbating the crisis is the new green energy grid because the peak hours for electricity use are from 6:30 pm to 10 pm when solar and wind are not available. This is called the “Duck Curve” because the time demand energy use profile looks like the silhouette of a duck. So, a green power grid is not a fit for the dual peak load market – peaking at midday and again at sunset. In short: California’s blackouts are a structural, design, centrally planned failure, not a market failure.
Quote; Decentralizing the buying of power to local communities instead of by monopoly public utilities, is highly popular because it gives local politicians the ability to buy votes with green power jobs for their cities and counties. It was a former speaker of California’s Assembly who in 1963 famously said: “money (and jobs) is the mother’s milk of politics”. There will be strong local political resistance to curtailing green power mandates in California. Green power in California is a jobs program trying to be an energy policy. www.masterresource.org/lusvardi-wayne/ca-power-crisis-green-power-vs-duck-curve/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:18:12 GMT -5
So what happens when your green energy politics runs into that wall of energy supply reality ? Quote; No State Imports More Electricity Than California.
California has taken bold action by shuttering its coal plants, planning to shut down the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant so it can increase its share of renewable energy, or that’s what the Greenies out there want to believe. In reality, the Golden State simply imports electricity generated by coal, natural gas, and nuclear facilities from Arizona and Nevada and pretends they are “green energy” leaders. www.americanexperiment.org/2019/04/no-state-imports-electricity-california/
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:32:04 GMT -5
California by the year, starting in 2012.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:39:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:43:07 GMT -5
I wonder how many people in California are hoping their neighboring states go to the same green power operational scenario ?
With no extra power to sell.
It's great for AGW, isn't it ?
All states should follow the guidelines for clean power.
Or are they being 'kept in the dark' on this, so to speak ?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 26, 2021 16:20:23 GMT -5
So what happens when your green energy politics runs into that wall of energy supply reality ? Quote; No State Imports More Electricity Than California.
California has taken bold action by shuttering its coal plants, planning to shut down the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant so it can increase its share of renewable energy, or that’s what the Greenies out there want to believe. In reality, the Golden State simply imports electricity generated by coal, natural gas, and nuclear facilities from Arizona and Nevada and pretends they are “green energy” leaders. www.americanexperiment.org/2019/04/no-state-imports-electricity-california/All of the states import energy. One of the issues is: NIMBY Do you want to live near a nuclear power plant - or where it's waste water or spent rods wind up? What happens in the nearish future with that water and rods? Do you want to live near a coal fired plant - with it's train traffic (to get the coal there), and any environment issues/polution? Do you want to live in a house near the really big electric towers/lines? The problem is that you can't 'bottle' electricity and generally you can't send it over long distances efficiently. If you have $$ it doesn't matter - you don't have to live in any of those areas (the above places).
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 26, 2021 16:23:04 GMT -5
but then again America is a wealthy country - why should we pollute/spoil OUR soil? We should buy 'energy' from someone else - so they can live with the consequences of creating energy.
(It's that NIMBY thing...on a Country level)
You can extrapolate that to the State Level too... let some other area/state live with the headache... I don't want it in my backyard.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 26, 2021 16:30:23 GMT -5
And FWIW: I live along a busy rail line. Frieght, coal, mail, sometimes military equipment, commuters (nearly 1.5 million rides per year) and vacationers (Amtrak) flow over the tracks less than 1/4 mile from my house. those tracks (and a couple of other lines that crisscross the suburbs) run thru miles and miles of densely popular areas.
Every now and then there's talk of allowing nuclear waste and other kinds of waste to move over those rail lines. I do believe it's fairly safe to do so - but all it takes is one accident to effect potentially 10's of thousands of people in one moment. All it takes is one car or truck on the tracks to derail a train or a suicide with complications. Please do NOT ask me for information on Train Deaths. It's depressing.
I don't want this stuff running thru my neighborhood on any sort of regular basis. Not in my backyard. Some does - but it's few and far between. What would something like regular runs of chemicals/toxic waste do to the value of the homes/etc along miles and miles of tracks? Probably nothing - until a disaster happened.
I get that there are issues with green energy. But shouldn't we be moving towards something better? It's the 21st century. We should be making improvements - not standing still and maintaining the status quo.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 17:16:19 GMT -5
but then again America is a wealthy country - why should we pollute/spoil OUR soil? We should buy 'energy' from someone else - so they can live with the consequences of creating energy. (It's that NIMBY thing...on a Country level) You can extrapolate that to the State Level too... let some other area/state live with the headache... I don't want it in my backyard. My 20yo nephew posted something on FB this morning asking how we’ll feel when a nearby pipeline goes haywire and pollutes our aquifer. First, I’m proud of my nephew for even thinking and posting about things like this. Second, our water source is one of the best in the nation and it would be terrible if we lost it somehow, especially due to contamination that could be avoided. It provides good, clean water and is sufficient to last decades for the area it serves. I have relatives that live in other parts of the country, and some of them admit that our water tastes much better than what comes out of their taps at home. I’ve visited some of those same relatives in their homes, and I agree. The water in my relatives’ homes in Joliet, IL is the worst! It tastes and looks like something is or should be swimming in a glass of water there. But I digress.... Third, my nephew obviously knows something I don’t know, because I wasn’t aware that our aquifers were at risk due to pipelines. Now I have to research to see what’s really going on, and what’s true or not. Fourth, the fact that it was my young nephew that brought this to my attention makes me proud. Did I already say that I’m proud of him? No, I don’t want anything that could possibly pollute our water source. On that, I’m firmly in the camp of “not in my backyard “.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jan 27, 2021 8:08:45 GMT -5
I live my professional life in the duck curve, but I won’t bore you with a lengthy treatise on what we can’t go entirely green, yet. However there will be a day 40-50 years into the future where it may be possible, as technology advances and our communities evolve energy use practices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 10:48:45 GMT -5
And FWIW: I live along a busy rail line. Frieght, coal, mail, sometimes military equipment, commuters (nearly 1.5 million rides per year) and vacationers (Amtrak) flow over the tracks less than 1/4 mile from my house. those tracks (and a couple of other lines that crisscross the suburbs) run thru miles and miles of densely popular areas. Every now and then there's talk of allowing nuclear waste and other kinds of waste to move over those rail lines. I do believe it's fairly safe to do so - but all it takes is one accident to effect potentially 10's of thousands of people in one moment. All it takes is one car or truck on the tracks to derail a train or a suicide with complications. Please do NOT ask me for information on Train Deaths. It's depressing. I don't want this stuff running thru my neighborhood on any sort of regular basis. Not in my backyard. Some does - but it's few and far between. What would something like regular runs of chemicals/toxic waste do to the value of the homes/etc along miles and miles of tracks? Probably nothing - until a disaster happened. I get that there are issues with green energy. But shouldn't we be moving towards something better? It's the 21st century. We should be making improvements - not standing still and maintaining the status quo. [Regards; your last three posts.] Deflection with minor side issues. Projections on secondary's. Other than posturing with political narrative, adding some personal feelings, you don't know what you are talking about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 10:53:03 GMT -5
I live my professional life in the duck curve, but I won’t bore you with a lengthy treatise on what we can’t go entirely green, yet. However there will be a day 40-50 years into the future where it may be possible, as technology advances and our communities evolve energy use practices. Ah, someone else who knows the actuality. Pleasure to meet you.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2021 11:23:42 GMT -5
I live my professional life in the duck curve, but I won’t bore you with a lengthy treatise on what we can’t go entirely green, yet. However there will be a day 40-50 years into the future where it may be possible, as technology advances and our communities evolve energy use practices. Time lines are interesting things. We have just witnessed the power of the human mind to, more quickly than many thought possible, meet a crisis when presented with the challenge and given the needed resources. Perhaps it will be 40-50 years. Or perhaps we can acknowledge the need, identify the challenges, and shorten that time line.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 11:33:58 GMT -5
I live my professional life in the duck curve, but I won’t bore you with a lengthy treatise on what we can’t go entirely green, yet. However there will be a day 40-50 years into the future where it may be possible, as technology advances and our communities evolve energy use practices. Time lines are interesting things. We have just witnessed the power of the human mind to, more quickly than many thought possible, meet a crisis when presented with the challenge and given the needed resources. Perhaps it will be 40-50 years. Or perhaps we can acknowledge the need, identify the challenges, and shorten that time line. Need is already acknowledged, we do not have the technology, simple as that. Fast tracking existing MRNA vaccine tech, does not create new tech for power grids. Your attempt at the comparison is laughable, even with mystical reference to the power of the human mind. Quote; In 1990, scientists discovered that they could inject mice with mRNA and DNA to make the mouse cells create a protein. That protein production lasted for a few weeks. In 1992, mRNA coding for vasopressin ( anti-diuretic hormone) was injected into rats, resolving their diabetes insipidus symptoms. historyofvaccines.blog/2021/01/03/the-history-of-the-mrna-vaccines/
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2021 11:41:48 GMT -5
Time lines are interesting things. We have just witnessed the power of the human mind to, more quickly than many thought possible, meet a crisis when presented with the challenge and given the needed resources. Perhaps it will be 40-50 years. Or perhaps we can acknowledge the need, identify the challenges, and shorten that time line. Need is already acknowledged, we do not have the technology, simple as that. Fast tracking existing MRNA vaccine tech, does not create new tech for power grids. Your attempt at the comparison is laughable, even with mystical reference to the power of the human mind. Always happy to provide a laugh. But to note: Throughout human history we have never had the technology, until we have. Qoute: In 1980, the American physicist Professor John Goodenough invented a new type of lithium battery in which the lithium (Li) could migrate through the battery from one electrode to the other as a Li+ ion. ... But in the 1990s Goodenough again made a huge leap in battery technology by introducing a stable lithium-ion cathode based on lithium iron and phosphate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 11:52:32 GMT -5
Need is already acknowledged, we do not have the technology, simple as that. Fast tracking existing MRNA vaccine tech, does not create new tech for power grids. Your attempt at the comparison is laughable, even with mystical reference to the power of the human mind. Always happy to provide a laugh. But to note: Throughout human history we have never had the technology, until we have. Clean power is good. Don't see it happening any time soon other than as an assist for cutbacks of fossil fuel usage, when it's viable. California has far overstepped that usage, and will pay with blackouts when other states have no extra to sell during the hot weather, even with their conventional sources all running. If they continue with the current policies, this will only get worse.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 27, 2021 14:11:25 GMT -5
but then again America is a wealthy country - why should we pollute/spoil OUR soil? We should buy 'energy' from someone else - so they can live with the consequences of creating energy. (It's that NIMBY thing...on a Country level) You can extrapolate that to the State Level too... let some other area/state live with the headache... I don't want it in my backyard. You do. The northeast buys hydroelectricity from Quebec.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 27, 2021 16:23:37 GMT -5
So what happens when your green energy politics runs into that wall of energy supply reality ? Quote; No State Imports More Electricity Than California.
California has taken bold action by shuttering its coal plants, planning to shut down the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant so it can increase its share of renewable energy, or that’s what the Greenies out there want to believe. In reality, the Golden State simply imports electricity generated by coal, natural gas, and nuclear facilities from Arizona and Nevada and pretends they are “green energy” leaders. www.americanexperiment.org/2019/04/no-state-imports-electricity-california/All of the states import energy. One of the issues is: NIMBY Do you want to live near a nuclear power plant - or where it's waste water or spent rods wind up? What happens in the nearish future with that water and rods? Do you want to live near a coal fired plant - with it's train traffic (to get the coal there), and any environment issues/polution? Do you want to live in a house near the really big electric towers/lines? The problem is that you can't 'bottle' electricity and generally you can't send it over long distances efficiently. If you have $$ it doesn't matter - you don't have to live in any of those areas (the above places). no state has as many people as CA, either. ergo........
for the record, I think CA is on the right track regarding this issue. not so sure about the second most populous state. or the third. or the fourth.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jan 28, 2021 8:35:29 GMT -5
I live my professional life in the duck curve, but I won’t bore you with a lengthy treatise on what we can’t go entirely green, yet. However there will be a day 40-50 years into the future where it may be possible, as technology advances and our communities evolve energy use practices. Time lines are interesting things. We have just witnessed the power of the human mind to, more quickly than many thought possible, meet a crisis when presented with the challenge and given the needed resources. Perhaps it will be 40-50 years. Or perhaps we can acknowledge the need, identify the challenges, and shorten that time line. I agree, and please don’t take my comments as anti-green energy. I think most of us in the electric generation field know it’s use will increase as technology advances. We are rapidly preparing for it. Coal is going away, but there will still be a need for base load plants, nuclear if very “clean” but comes with its own set of problems, and NG is our best path forward for now, but how long will the supply last? One of the reasons we still have so much coal is that many utilities were told NG was in short supply, so coal way the way to go (mud-70’s), those plants are still viable. Fast forward to wind and solar, everyone wants them, as long as they are constructed some place else. We have been zoned out of many projects do to local opposition. There is no one solution, and it will take some time to sort out. However, I can’t think of a single electric provider who isn’t thinking about the future, we have to and ignoring it will not make it go away, it will simply put you out of business while others pass you by.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 14:30:24 GMT -5
Need is already acknowledged, we do not have the technology, simple as that. Fast tracking existing MRNA vaccine tech, does not create new tech for power grids. Your attempt at the comparison is laughable, even with mystical reference to the power of the human mind. Always happy to provide a laugh. But to note: Throughout human history we have never had the technology, until we have. Qoute: In 1980, the American physicist Professor John Goodenough invented a new type of lithium battery in which the lithium (Li) could migrate through the battery from one electrode to the other as a Li+ ion. ... But in the 1990s Goodenough again made a huge leap in battery technology by introducing a stable lithium-ion cathode based on lithium iron and phosphate. So California's over generation during the day followed by a 1,300 Mega Watt ramp need, will be met with batteries ? In going with your comparison to MRNA vaccines.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2021 14:45:50 GMT -5
Always happy to provide a laugh. But to note: Throughout human history we have never had the technology, until we have. Qoute: In 1980, the American physicist Professor John Goodenough invented a new type of lithium battery in which the lithium (Li) could migrate through the battery from one electrode to the other as a Li+ ion. ... But in the 1990s Goodenough again made a huge leap in battery technology by introducing a stable lithium-ion cathode based on lithium iron and phosphate. So California's over generation during the day followed by a 1,300 Mega Watt ramp need, will be met with batteries ? I have no idea. As you indicated knowledge and technology built on itself with a vaccine. I was just noting how that has taken place with one area of power usage.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 28, 2021 15:06:56 GMT -5
Time lines are interesting things. We have just witnessed the power of the human mind to, more quickly than many thought possible, meet a crisis when presented with the challenge and given the needed resources. Perhaps it will be 40-50 years. Or perhaps we can acknowledge the need, identify the challenges, and shorten that time line. I agree, and please don’t take my comments as anti-green energy. I think most of us in the electric generation field know it’s use will increase as technology advances. We are rapidly preparing for it. Coal is going away, but there will still be a need for base load plants, nuclear if very “clean” but comes with its own set of problems, and NG is our best path forward for now, but how long will the supply last? One of the reasons we still have so much coal is that many utilities were told NG was in short supply, so coal way the way to go (mud-70’s), those plants are still viable. Fast forward to wind and solar, everyone wants them, as long as they are constructed some place else. We have been zoned out of many projects do to local opposition. There is no one solution, and it will take some time to sort out. However, I can’t think of a single electric provider who isn’t thinking about the future, we have to and ignoring it will not make it go away, it will simply put you out of business while others pass you by. Solar energy collectors in office windows and residential roof shingles is in the works. Imagine if sky scrapers made their own power. Concurrently driverless trucks and cars are not too far away which will also reduce the need for fossil fuels. And there is biodiesel. It won’t be one magic billet, but a bunch of things that together allow us to cut fossil fuel use.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 21:21:48 GMT -5
I agree, and please don’t take my comments as anti-green energy. I think most of us in the electric generation field know it’s use will increase as technology advances. We are rapidly preparing for it. Coal is going away, but there will still be a need for base load plants, nuclear if very “clean” but comes with its own set of problems, and NG is our best path forward for now, but how long will the supply last? One of the reasons we still have so much coal is that many utilities were told NG was in short supply, so coal way the way to go (mud-70’s), those plants are still viable. Fast forward to wind and solar, everyone wants them, as long as they are constructed some place else. We have been zoned out of many projects do to local opposition. There is no one solution, and it will take some time to sort out. However, I can’t think of a single electric provider who isn’t thinking about the future, we have to and ignoring it will not make it go away, it will simply put you out of business while others pass you by. Solar energy collectors in office windows and residential roof shingles is in the works. Imagine if sky scrapers made their own power. Concurrently driverless trucks and cars are not too far away which will also reduce the need for fossil fuels. And there is biodiesel. It won’t be one magic billet, but a bunch of things that together allow us to cut fossil fuel use. Since the California grid is already oversupplied during the operating window for wind and solar (reply #2), how will yet more generation from solar in windows and shingles during the same timeframe, help with shortages during the big load peak hours, when more of those very same devices produce no electricity ? How do cars and trucks driven at some time in the future automatically, produce peak power for the current shortages in generating capacity
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 21:34:31 GMT -5
So California's over generation during the day followed by a 1,300 Mega Watt ramp need, will be met with batteries ? I have no idea. As you indicated knowledge and technology built on itself with a vaccine. I was just noting how that has taken place with one area of power usage. I noted that a vaccine in use today, from MRNA technology started in 1990, does not create technology for power grids today. How does this one area of power usage (your battery), create a 1,300 mega watt ramp need this summer ? Third world style rolling blackouts already occurred last summer in California due to lack of generating capacity, not promising for a supposedly modern system that is charging twice the average rate per KW/hour. Buying 30% of the peak load from other states using conventional power plants is not clean power. I can agree with tractors guess of 40/50 years as a 'maybe'. Doesn't seem to fit well with Newsom's mandate in 14 years for only electric vehicles to be sold in California.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 9:30:23 GMT -5
As California continues to be the largest shopper for out of state power, I wonder how this will affect the available electricity for sale to cover for California's huge lack of generating capacity. Quote; There has been a lot of talk today about President Joe Biden’s first day executive orders. One EO that has long been promised paves the way forward for mass electric vehicle adoption. Joe has campaigned on a $5 billion plan to install half a million new EV charging stations by 2030.jalopnik.com/where-exactly-does-joe-biden-plan-to-put-550-000-ev-cha-1846096767
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jan 29, 2021 10:18:20 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to think about. One of the projects I have been working on involves charging vehicles at night when demand is low, but utilizing the potentially millions of charged cars/trucks as a source of power to feed back into the grid when it’s needed. The term distributated energy is beginning to get attention in “what if” scenarios.
You plug your vehicle in while your not using it and the power companies can use some of that power to feed back into the grid. The technology exists, and this avoids the need to have one large battery bank, instead capitalizing on millions of smaller batteries. Obviously we don’t have millions of electric vehicles on the road yet....but we might someday.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 29, 2021 10:22:44 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to think about. One of the projects I have been working on involves charging vehicles at night when demand is low, but utilizing the potentially millions of charged cars/trucks as a source of power to feed back into the grid when it’s needed. The term distributated energy is beginning to get attention in “what if” scenarios. You plug your vehicle in while your not using it and the power companies can use some of that power to feed back into the grid. The technology exists, and this avoids the need to have one large battery bank, instead capitalizing on millions of smaller batteries. Obviously we don’t have millions of electric vehicles on the road yet....but we might someday. I knew I heard brains buzzing out there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 10:36:44 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to think about. One of the projects I have been working on involves charging vehicles at night when demand is low, but utilizing the potentially millions of charged cars/trucks as a source of power to feed back into the grid when it’s needed. The term distributated energy is beginning to get attention in “what if” scenarios. You plug your vehicle in while your not using it and the power companies can use some of that power to feed back into the grid. The technology exists, and this avoids the need to have one large battery bank, instead capitalizing on millions of smaller batteries. Obviously we don’t have millions of electric vehicles on the road yet....but we might someday. Vs let's say, using the charged vehicles for driving ? There will always be a number of vehicles not being used, who will decide which ones won't ? Emergencies, necessity driving ? Lawsuits over restriction ? The 'might someday' is a very accurate description.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 10:49:22 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to think about. One of the projects I have been working on involves charging vehicles at night when demand is low, but utilizing the potentially millions of charged cars/trucks as a source of power to feed back into the grid when it’s needed. The term distributated energy is beginning to get attention in “what if” scenarios. You plug your vehicle in while your not using it and the power companies can use some of that power to feed back into the grid. The technology exists, and this avoids the need to have one large battery bank, instead capitalizing on millions of smaller batteries. Obviously we don’t have millions of electric vehicles on the road yet....but we might someday. I knew I heard brains buzzing out there. For me it was more of 'pies in the sky' floating around.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 29, 2021 11:01:18 GMT -5
I knew I heard brains buzzing out there. For me it was more of 'pies in the sky' floating around. I have spent a lot of time observing groups problem solve. It was fun to see a group really struggling, having that kid offer crazy ideas, and others come up with "yeah but" more practical solutions from them.
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