thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 21, 2021 16:11:03 GMT -5
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 21, 2021 16:25:58 GMT -5
Well, those 2 facts are true. Now the conclusion they are hoping you draw isn't, but its Fox. Critical thinking is not their or their viewers strong suit
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jan 21, 2021 16:50:20 GMT -5
My cousin has 3 children. His daughter and her husband are both doctors. His son in law is a doctor.
My cousin was a redneck. His daughter went for her internship and brought home her fiance--a black man. She fought the battles with dad for the younger siblings. His SIL is married to his son.
My cousin's world view has expanded greatly from the days when he lived in rural Iowa on the farm. His parents would not have been happy about any of this.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jan 21, 2021 22:12:46 GMT -5
Sorry to read you're having a grim time, pulmonarymd. You do good in the world.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 28, 2021 17:05:41 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 28, 2021 17:23:07 GMT -5
I received the Moderna vaccine. Of course Moderna just announced that their vaccine is less effective against the SA strain. Ugh
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Jan 28, 2021 17:25:05 GMT -5
I thought Moderna or Pfizer was in the process of developing a booster shot for handling the variants - not sure where I saw that, probably in the news.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 28, 2021 17:37:39 GMT -5
Again, less effective does not mean ineffective. Remember, when vaccines were first being developed, it was hoped it would decrease your risk of infection by 50%. The fact that it was 95% effective is a home run. So, even if it is 60% effective, it will help. Moderna is trying to manufacture a booster, but it will still need to be tested for safety. We have what we have for now. Might as well use it and get whatever benefit we can get. Pfizer vaccine seems to be only slightly less effective, so that will help as well.
The risk of mutations like this was one of the reasons to try to limit spread. Viruses mutate. The more opportunity they are given, the risk of more dangerous mutations. But since the Trump administration made no effort to control the spread, and we were too stupid and selfish to do what was necessary, here we are.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 28, 2021 17:40:07 GMT -5
Guys! When they were developing this vaccine, I believe anything greater than 50% effectiveness was going to be considered a success. Most of the vaccines have come up with >90% effectiveness.
In the future, they can adjust the vaccine to the mutation but this is not a catastrophe. As long as they have the genomic sequence of the mutants, it's merely a matter of changing the template that makes the vaccine. It would be a hell of a lot harder if it was like the flu vaccine where they needed to inoculate and grow viruses in eggs.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 28, 2021 17:41:56 GMT -5
Guys! When they were developing this vaccine, I believe anything greater than 50% effectiveness was going to be considered a success. Most of the vaccines have come up with >90% effectiveness. In the future, they can adjust the vaccine to the mutation but this is not a catastrophe. As long as they have the genomic sequence of the mutants, it's merely a matter of changing the template that makes the vaccine. It would be a hell of a lot harder if it was like the flu vaccine where they needed to inoculate and grow viruses in eggs. We were posting at the same time! Great minds think alike, LOL
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 28, 2021 17:56:39 GMT -5
I think that this statement in the above article is more bothersome......
But the news in South Africa was not as encouraging. Novavax’s smaller trial found the vaccine to have a 49.4 percent efficacy overall. (The company reported that about 6 percent of the trial’s participants were positive for H.I.V., and for those who were not H.I.V. positive, the vaccine had a 60 percent efficacy.)
The fact that 6% of the study population has HIV, yet has a >10% difference in efficiency says a lot. The data was presented as if the default of the population is HIV+. You are kind of comparing apples and oranges, when you compare the results of an immune response to someone who has a deficient immune system to someone whose immune system is intact.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jan 28, 2021 18:02:31 GMT -5
Quite frankly, I don't worry much about the South African B.1,351 variant compared to the Brazilian P.1 variant. The Brazilian strain shows much greater potential for vaccine escape. There are also some indications that persons who contracted "wild-type" Covid-19 months ago have much less immunity or resistance to the P.1 variant than we hoped for and expected.
There's definitely a part of me that wishes that she had sided with that other student that wanted to study Portuguese and needed six other students to sign up in order to get the classes started. If I had done that (30+ years ago), I would have a much better sense of whether the information drought is due to mundane translation delays, a toxic populist politician, or utter chaos where P1 is showing up now.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jan 28, 2021 19:33:08 GMT -5
I received the Moderna vaccine. Of course Moderna just announced that their vaccine is less effective against the SA strain. Ugh I thought moderna stated their studies show that it is effective against the new strains, but they are still working on a booster for any new variants that may evolve. How did you feel after the vaccination? I have heard that those who have already had covid are having more side effects.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 28, 2021 20:08:58 GMT -5
I received the Moderna vaccine. Of course Moderna just announced that their vaccine is less effective against the SA strain. Ugh I thought moderna stated their studies show that it is effective against the new strains, but they are still working on a booster for any new variants that may evolve. How did you feel after the vaccination? I have heard that those who have already had covid are having more side effects. The report I read said it’s less effective but still considered effective. I didn’t read anything about Pfizer so see how they are fairing About 14 hours after my shot I had uncontrollable shivers. I am usually hot but I was so cold that even with a heavy sweatshirt and sweatpants I was freezing. My teeth chattering so bad that DH heard it in bed! I was freaked out a little because I read that they didn’t have conclusive studies on those of us that received the vaccine. It lasted about 4 hours and then I was fine. It was the most bizarre thing I’m worried about the second vaccine. I’m still getting it but I’m dreading the side effects! How were you after your shot? My aunt is 68 and she had zero side effects. My husband is 52 and he ran a fever of 100.5 and had some severe muscle aches. His lasted about 6 or 8 hours.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jan 28, 2021 20:16:43 GMT -5
I thought moderna stated their studies show that it is effective against the new strains, but they are still working on a booster for any new variants that may evolve. How did you feel after the vaccination? I have heard that those who have already had covid are having more side effects. The report I read said it’s less effective but still considered effective. I didn’t read anything about Pfizer so see how they are fairing About 14 hours after my shot I had uncontrollable shivers. I am usually hot but I was so cold that even with a heavy sweatshirt and sweatpants I was freezing. My teeth chattering so bad that DH heard it in bed! I was freaked out a little because I read that they didn’t have conclusive studies on those of us that received the vaccine. It lasted about 4 hours and then I was fine. It was the most bizarre thing I’m worried about the second vaccine. I’m still getting it but I’m dreading the side effects! How were you after your shot? My aunt is 68 and she had zero side effects. My husband is 52 and he ran a fever of 100.5 and had some severe muscle aches. His lasted about 6 or 8 hours. I had nothing but a sore arm. My job is related to healthcare so I know lots of people who have received at least the first dose. The only one who had any side effects other than arm pain was the person who previously had covid. He didn't have a severe case of the virus, just ran a fever for a few days with a slight cough. After being vaccinated he ran a slight fever for 24 hrs but then was fine. My best friend, who has rheumatoid arthritis, said she had the chills for a few hours and her entire body hurt for about 24 hrs (worse than her normal pain), but then she was fine. At least you know the side effects will go away, who knows what the hell will happen if a person gets covid. Seems almost like a crap shoot these days. A co-worker's entire family got it. Her husband who is seemingly healthy had a terrible time and her 70 year old mother had barely any symptoms. My co-worker just had a cold for 5 days. She isn't in a rush to get vaccinated since she just had it over Christmas. Said she will get it in the spring.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 28, 2021 20:28:10 GMT -5
Much of this is speculation. The vaccines nes will likely work to some degree. All it needs to do is prevent severe disease. If you get cold-like symptoms, it is likely if no consequence. Since there are NO studies that look at these specific variants and the vaccine effectiveness, we have no idea if this is even a problem. And they have said less effective, not ineffective
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2021 21:38:09 GMT -5
The report I read said it’s less effective but still considered effective. I didn’t read anything about Pfizer so see how they are fairing About 14 hours after my shot I had uncontrollable shivers. I am usually hot but I was so cold that even with a heavy sweatshirt and sweatpants I was freezing. My teeth chattering so bad that DH heard it in bed! I was freaked out a little because I read that they didn’t have conclusive studies on those of us that received the vaccine. It lasted about 4 hours and then I was fine. It was the most bizarre thing I’m worried about the second vaccine. I’m still getting it but I’m dreading the side effects! How were you after your shot? My aunt is 68 and she had zero side effects. My husband is 52 and he ran a fever of 100.5 and had some severe muscle aches. His lasted about 6 or 8 hours. I had nothing but a sore arm. My job is related to healthcare so I know lots of people who have received at least the first dose. The only one who had any side effects other than arm pain was the person who previously had covid. He didn't have a severe case of the virus, just ran a fever for a few days with a slight cough. After being vaccinated he ran a slight fever for 24 hrs but then was fine. My best friend, who has rheumatoid arthritis, said she had the chills for a few hours and her entire body hurt for about 24 hrs (worse than her normal pain), but then she was fine. At least you know the side effects will go away, who knows what the hell will happen if a person gets covid. Seems almost like a crap shoot these days. A co-worker's entire family got it. Her husband who is seemingly healthy had a terrible time and her 70 year old mother had barely any symptoms. My co-worker just had a cold for 5 days. She isn't in a rush to get vaccinated since she just had it over Christmas. Said she will get it in the spring. My husband had a headache and slept most of the day after his first shot. He blamed the shot. His appointment was at midnight. He didn't fall asleep until like 3 am. I could make an argument it wasn't the shot.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 28, 2021 22:58:59 GMT -5
Again, less effective does not mean ineffective. Remember, when vaccines were first being developed, it was hoped it would decrease your risk of infection by 50%. The fact that it was 95% effective is a home run. So, even if it is 60% effective, it will help. Moderna is trying to manufacture a booster, but it will still need to be tested for safety. We have what we have for now. Might as well use it and get whatever benefit we can get. Pfizer vaccine seems to be only slightly less effective, so that will help as well. The risk of mutations like this was one of the reasons to try to limit spread. Viruses mutate. The more opportunity they are given, the risk of more dangerous mutations. But since the Trump administration made no effort to control the spread, and we were too stupid and selfish to do what was necessary, here we are. however, less effective does actually mean less effective, so - there's that. and as an aside, absolutely no one made this "less effective = ineffective" leap, so I'm not sure why you felt a tutorial on the english was in order.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jan 29, 2021 7:36:46 GMT -5
Because there seems to be a repeated feeling as to how disastrous this is, and a lack of perspective. All of what is published is based on speculation and incomplete data. Everything about these vaccines has been better than anyone could have hoped. The goal was at least 50% effective. They are 95% effective. All of this speculation is based on in vitro studies. How things work in the lab and how they work in the body are different. Immunity does not only depend on antibodies, but on cell mediated immunity, which we cannot measure. And most importantly, focusing on the options we have and actions we can take, instead of what we do not have or the shortcomings of our treatments does not help anyone now.
The media is a big culprit in this. They dumb down and make what researchers, scientists, and physicians say much more definitive than it is. Most of what we know with this virus comes with the understanding that we do not understand what we need to. That is not conveyed, and because people do not understand science, it gets misinterpreted. Like a game of telephone, it eventually gets garbled
There is enough about this virus to be concerned about. But these speculation ms are not what we should focus on
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 29, 2021 9:43:04 GMT -5
there seems to be a feeling?
it seems like you are pushing those supposed feelings onto people so you can react to something that isn't even there and lecture on points no one was arguing against
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 29, 2021 9:55:39 GMT -5
I heard some fucking idiot say that the vaccine was only 96% effective, but the survival rate was 99%, so the vaccine was pointless. If that was the only insanely stupid thing I heard someone say in the past 10 months, I would dismiss it - but with the volume of stupid ass shit people are saying, I suspect a lot of people have heard "less effective" and decided that renders the vaccine useless.
Granted, no one on this board said it - so PMD's explanation may be out of place, but I can see the need for repetition of good logic, even if you might be talking to someone reasonable.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2021 10:37:22 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who refuse to get the flu shot because "it's just a guess" and they got it wrong with swine flu therefore getting one is pointless because it is "not effective".
No no that is not how immunity works. Getting the flu shot is cumulative and odds are that at least one you got over your lifetime on top of exposure in the wild is similar to the strain they "got wrong" and your body will respond. You will likely get sick, possibly badly sick but your odds of dying from the flu are greatly decreased. Your ods of getting so sick you get a secondary infection which results in drowning in your own snot are greatly decreased.
So you should get your flu shot regardless if you think the experts "got it wrong".
I imagine that the way the news is talking about the new strains of COVID people are going to behave exactly the same way. After all Dr. Fauci is a liberal elite who is part of the problem so him going on national TV telling you to get your damn shot is all a part of the conspiracy.
While we tend to be of above intelligence on the boards people need to keep in mind the COVID shot is not to prevent you from EVER getting it. The goal is to get to where you are out a couple weeks feeling like crap and then recover. People are still going to get sick enough to require the hospital just like they do with the flu. The shot will lower your odds of dying from it.
So yes new strains are concerning but that doesn't change the fact that a vaccine is better than no vaccine at all. The goal here is to reduce the burden on the health care system so if you are one of the unlucky ones with the new strain there is a bed for you because the vaccine kept the hoards from needing it.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 29, 2021 10:41:09 GMT -5
Granted, no one on this board said it - so PMD's explanation may be out of place, but I can see the need for repetition of good logic, even if you might be talking to someone reasonable. But good logic requires a logical connection to what was actually being discussed. As an aside, talking to someone who keeps pretending something is being said that isn't in order to launch into a rehearsed spiel tends to have people push back, exit the conversation, or stop listening. Because it doesn't make any sense. so I reject the good logic angle.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 29, 2021 10:57:42 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who refuse to get the flu shot because "it's just a guess" and they got it wrong with swine flu therefore getting one is pointless because it is "not effective". No no that is not how immunity works. Getting the flu shot is cumulative and odds are that at least one you got over your lifetime on top of exposure in the wild is similar to the strain they "got wrong" and your body will respond. You will likely get sick, possibly badly sick but your odds of dying from the flu are greatly decreased. Your ods of getting so sick you get a secondary infection which results in drowning in your own snot are greatly decreased. So you should get your flu shot regardless if you think the experts "got it wrong". I imagine that the way the news is talking about the new strains of COVID people are going to behave exactly the same way. After all Dr. Fauci is a liberal elite who is part of the problem so him going on national TV telling you to get your damn shot is all a part of the conspiracy. While we tend to be of above intelligence on the boards people need to keep in mind the COVID shot is not to prevent you from EVER getting it. The goal is to get to where you are out a couple weeks feeling like crap and then recover. People are still going to get sick enough to require the hospital just like they do with the flu. The shot will lower your odds of dying from it. So yes new strains are concerning but that doesn't change the fact that a vaccine is better than no vaccine at all. The goal here is to reduce the burden on the health care system so if you are one of the unlucky ones with the new strain there is a bed for you because the vaccine kept the hoards from needing it. I will continue to feel free to discuss the expected efficacy of the vaccine and variants. Anyone who can't handle an actual discussion of that topic without feeling that the sky is unhinging from our very words and that every word needs to be screened so that we are sure we are 100% convincing the 0.46 of a person who may or may not be reading this thread and who hasn't determined that the covid vaccine is right for them - those posters should feel the freedom start their own thread where they lecture each other about things no one is saying, and I will not impede your enjoyment by posting there. On my end, in the interest of board harmony, I will endevor to incorporate the tag line: Is the covid vaccine right for you? Ask your doctor!Hopefully, that will help keep everything clear.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 29, 2021 12:09:19 GMT -5
Granted, no one on this board said it - so PMD's explanation may be out of place, but I can see the need for repetition of good logic, even if you might be talking to someone reasonable. But good logic requires a logical connection to what was actually being discussed. As an aside, talking to someone who keeps pretending something is being said that isn't in order to launch into a rehearsed spiel tends to have people push back, exit the conversation, or stop listening. Because it doesn't make any sense. so I reject the good logic angle. I'm guessing they are hearing it IRL. You seem quite agitated- so, I will agree with you and bail out. I have nothing to add here.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 29, 2021 13:59:58 GMT -5
But good logic requires a logical connection to what was actually being discussed. As an aside, talking to someone who keeps pretending something is being said that isn't in order to launch into a rehearsed spiel tends to have people push back, exit the conversation, or stop listening. Because it doesn't make any sense. so I reject the good logic angle. I'm guessing they are hearing it IRL. You seem quite agitated- so, I will agree with you and bail out. I have nothing to add here. who me, agitated?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 2, 2021 14:16:19 GMT -5
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 4, 2021 8:51:30 GMT -5
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 4, 2021 8:58:07 GMT -5
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 7, 2021 1:09:13 GMT -5
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