Back Yard Design Help

[Deleted]

Our backyard is pretty big, but the part that makes it really big isn’t that it goes far straight back, it goes off to the side, way past our house, and that part of the yard slopes down to the point that when it rains a lot, the lowest part collects water and can become a tiny creek if it rains enough.

I’ve already decided that we’ll build that part of the yard up to make it all level, and have a retaining wall to keep it that way, if our neighborhood association is ok with it. DBF is already ok with it.

So far, I know that we at least need a shed. It would also be nice if we built a detached garage, since we have more than the 2 cars that (barely) fit in our garage.... and if we build it right, a detached garage would give DBF the space to tinker..... on our vehicles or whatever suits his fancy.

I would also like a seating area somewhere in the yard, where we can build a fire pit.

The logical place for another garage imo is at the end of the driveway that extends about 20 feet past the house. If we have to use part of the driveway for another garage, I’m ok with that.

I can’t figure out where to put a shed. When I sit on our deck, I don’t necessarily want a shed to be the thing that draws my eye because it’s in the middle of the yard. We can put it over on the side where we have to build the ground up, but I’m not sure if that’s practical because then we’ll have to walk across the whole backyard to get to it. I guess if we build a big enough garage, a shed won’t be necessary. The shed is primarily a place to keep a riding mower that we haven’t purchased yet, but definitely need. Would it be better to just build a garage big enough to also store what we’d store in a shed?

Now that I think about it, the shed at my other house is at the very back of the back yard, and that never posed a problem for me or made me not use it, so I guess location of the shed isn’t really a big deal.

The only issue is that if we build a garage of any size at the end of the driveway, it will block my favorite view (just trees) when I sit on the deck. A shed in a few other spots could help block the view of a couple of buildings I’d be ok not being able to see. 

And making another seating area, idk if that should be in close proximity to the deck for easy access or off to the side (toward the part of the yard that will be built up), where we’d have to build a longer path to get to it. I think I’d prefer it being somewhere close to the deck if I could make that work. The seating are is happening eventually, regardless of sheds, garages, and (sorry, but....) DBF. 

Idk if my descriptions make sense, it would probably be better if I could post a picture of our lot, but I don’t know how to do that even though I have satellite images saved.

If you can make sense of my post, what would you do?

[Lizard Queen]

Landscapes aren't my forte, and it's a little hard to picture what you describe, but I'd build the garage with extra space/door on the side or back for your lawn equipment. Fire pits with seating, I almost always see located at the back of the property. Not that you can't do it closer, but then those are usually fancier fire pits that run on propane, I think. I'm picturing the kind with crystals where the fire comes out.

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2020 17:22:53 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Landscapes aren't my forte, and it's a little hard to picture what you describe, but I'd build the garage with extra space/door on the side or back for your lawn equipment. Fire pits with seating, I almost always see located at the back of the property. Not that you can't do it closer, but then those are usually fancier fire pits that run on propane, I think. I'm picturing the kind with crystals where the fire comes out.

I’ve wanted a fire pit for YEARSSSS. But my patio at my other house was small. And here, we sit on a wood deck to relax, and in my mind wood decks and fire pits don’t mix all that well. It looks like we could maybe get by with a gas fueled fire pit, but I’d rather not have a fire pit on the deck, period. Hence the need for another seating area in the back yard.

If we build a garage, it would have to have doors big enough for cars, so a riding mower should get through with ease if we decide not to go with a shed.

[Ryan]

Hard to picture, but I don't think I'd build a retaining wall.  If you have standing water somewhere, I'd just do some drain tile to move it elsewhere, seems much cheaper and easier.  

I'm not a huge fan of wood decks or wood fire pits.  We had a deck that we tore down and did a brick paver patio along with a natural gas firepit.  It's the best, you don't smell like smoke and it keeps you very warm.  If it's in the budget, I'd consider that.  If it's not in the budget or you just really want wood burning, I've seen people do little firepits set way back from the house.

[Lizard Queen]

I actually love real wood fires. I have a gas fireplace in my house that I've never used in 13 years. I just see dollar bills going up in smoke.

My friend had a circular paver patio built in the back corner of her yard, with a built up half circle knee wall on the back side, and a fire pit built in the center. She has those outdoor couches that are built to go together in a semi-circle, too. I've seen that a lot, or just a flat paver patio area with adirondack chairs.

[Tennesseer]

@pinkcshmere - I would first draw up a wish list and brief description what and where things might be placed and then submit to your neighborhood association for their feedback.

Once you know what you can and can't do we might be able to help with suggestions.

[thyme4change]

Instead of a garage and a shed, why not just make the garage 5 (or 8) feet deeper and have storage inside the garage. You can have an extra door on the side or back of whatever works. If you think that through, you could build it specifically to your needs - putting in walls or partitions if that is desired. Or adding a workbench or whatever you need. With a solid building, you could add a sink, or even a powder room for use during back yard parties.

I think one building with everything you need is simpler and will have a cleaner look. I also (personally) prefer longer storage to one square. When it is x feet deep, but as wide as a 2 car garage, everything is in the front. It is easy to get to everything. In our old shed, we had to take out everything in the front to get to the stuff in the back.

[irishpad]

We need photos, lots of photos!   If you don't want to, I understand, but it would give us an idea of what you are thinking about.   

Twenty years ago, I built a patio at my former rectory.   There was no backyard as the back of the rectory was butt up against the alley.   But it had a big front yard so I built out a 24' x 32' patio in front with a 6' cedar fence around it.  (An elderly parishioner who lived across the street said, "That patio was a great idea, put why is the fence so high, I can't see what's going on inside.   lol)  Made sure to have green area between the house and the patio bricks so that it wouldn't get hot in the patio area.   In my 11 years there (keep in mind this is northern MN) I bet we had 1000 meals out on that patio.   I know the current pastor there uses it just about every summer day.   

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2020 18:05:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Hard to picture, but I don't think I'd build a retaining wall.  If you have standing water somewhere, I'd just do some drain tile to move it elsewhere, seems much cheaper and easier.  

I'm not a huge fan of wood decks or wood fire pits.  We had a deck that we tore down and did a brick paver patio along with a natural gas firepit.  It's the best, you don't smell like smoke and it keeps you very warm.  If it's in the budget, I'd consider that.  If it's not in the budget or you just really want wood burning, I've seen people do little firepits set way back from the house.

Idk what you mean by drain tile?

Part of our backyard is not really usable because of the way  it slopes. Regardless of what else we do, I’d like to make that part of the yard usable.

There’s actually a patio underneath our deck. As far as we can tell peering through gaps between boards on the deck, it’s not that much smaller than the deck, and has steps leading to it from the same door we use to access the deck.

We’ve both mentioned tearing the deck down and rolling with what’s underneath. That would simplify a lot of things, but so far, we haven’t seriously considered it.

[empress of self-improvement]

Look at houzz.com

mr.oped pointed me to it a few years ago. They have some good articles and you can look for tradespeople on there as well.

[irishpad]

Nov 9, 2020 20:16:58 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 9, 2020 18:05:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Hard to picture, but I don't think I'd build a retaining wall.  If you have standing water somewhere, I'd just do some drain tile to move it elsewhere, seems much cheaper and easier.  

I'm not a huge fan of wood decks or wood fire pits.  We had a deck that we tore down and did a brick paver patio along with a natural gas firepit.  It's the best, you don't smell like smoke and it keeps you very warm.  If it's in the budget, I'd consider that.  If it's not in the budget or you just really want wood burning, I've seen people do little firepits set way back from the house.

Idk what you mean by drain tile?

Part of our backyard is not really usable because of the way  it slopes. Regardless of what else we do, I’d like to make that part of the yard usable.

There’s actually a patio underneath our deck. As far as we can tell peering through gaps between boards on the deck, it’s not that much smaller than the deck, and has steps leading to it from the same door we use to access the deck.

We’ve both mentioned tearing the deck down and rolling with what’s underneath. That would simplify a lot of things, but so far, we haven’t seriously considered it.

Drain tile is something that is used in both landscaping and agricultural fields ( the part I'm more familial with)  It is ceramic tile (currently mostly plastic instead of ceramic) that is put in  4-10 feel below the ground and it has openings in it structure that can take in water and then drain it off to a separate location.   In farming situations, the drain tile is put in locations in the field that would be wet spots, swampy areas.  The tiling allows the farming to get into those areas earlier than normal and plant the crop for the year.   In your situation, it would help keep that area of your yard somewhat dry or at least not swampy.  

[chiver78]

I'm scanning the board tonight as I unwind, kind of commenting as a placeholder rn sorry. but, I have pics I want to PM you of my new backyard. it sounds like some of what I have here is what you have in mind. I have projects coming in the spring, that I'll explain in PM as well. if I don't PM you by this time tomorrow, please slap me upside the head. 🙂

[Tiny]

I am biased. I have a healthy respect for water. Is the slope of your yard (and I'm guessing your neighbors yards) to help channel water during rain storms away from the houses and streets?

I have a hard time thinking the builders of the subdivision didn't consider the water flow when they built it. What happens to the "water flow" if you level some of the yard and add in a retaining wall? Will the natural flow of water erode your newly leveled area and eventually destroy your wall? Will water be shunted to other undesirable places like your or a neighbors basement or turn some other area of your or a neighbors yard into a pond?

Water is a powerful thing.  You can't always bend Mother Nature to your will.  Respect her/it.    That said, you should be able to accomplish what you want but you may have to compromise on some things because of the drainage issues.  

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

We definitely need pictures. You can see a lot of my backyard in the gardening thread. 

[tskeeter]

Do you need more yard space? 

Filling and grading part of your property is going to be expensive.  It is quite literally a hole you plan to thousands of dollars in to.  If you’re building a flat spot to put a much needed garage and storage space, that’s one thing.  If you’d be spending a lot of money so you can have more yard to mow, that’s probably another.  

Adding fill to part of your property doesn’t make your property any bigger.  So I suspect that you would not recover your investment if you sold the property.  You might want figure out what the fill, retaining wall and grading job is likely to cost and consult with a real estate appraiser to see if filling the sloped area will increase the value of the property enough justify the investment.

By the way, I think you’re on track when you think about preserving your view.  A good view adds value to your property.  When we bought our house, we paid a whole bunch of money to get a lot with a great view, instead of buying a lot on the other side of the street with a view of a dirt slope. Messing up the view might actually reduce the value of your property.  

[bookkeeper]

Nov 9, 2020 23:15:30 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I am biased. I have a healthy respect for water. Is the slope of your yard (and I'm guessing your neighbors yards) to help channel water during rain storms away from the houses and streets?

I have a hard time thinking the builders of the subdivision didn't consider the water flow when they built it. What happens to the "water flow" if you level some of the yard and add in a retaining wall? Will the natural flow of water erode your newly leveled area and eventually destroy your wall? Will water be shunted to other undesirable places like your or a neighbors basement or turn some other area of your or a neighbors yard into a pond?

Water is a powerful thing.  You can't always bend Mother Nature to your will.  Respect her/it.    That said, you should be able to accomplish what you want but you may have to compromise on some things because of the drainage issues.  

This.  I have seen some beautiful retaining walls blown clean out after a 4 inch rain.  If you live with that much slope in your back yard, water needs a path to the creek.  If you put landscape block and dirt in water's way, water will still find a way.

[TheOtherMe]

I want my wooden deck to be gone, but I'm afraid to do it because of resale.

Next spring, it needs a lot of work.

[bookkeeper]

DH and I went to a large home and garden show when we were trying to figure out our back yard.  The show had landscape designers who would discuss your plans or sketch out a plan for you in an attempt to get your remodeling business.

Another idea is contacting your local university or community college that have horticulture or landscape design programs.  Often times, students need projects like yours to design for a grade.

Be aware that when purchasing fill dirt or rock, that the delivery charge is often as much or more as the product.  

I would vote for a bigger workshop/garage rather than having a separate shed.  Just another building that will need paint and roofing.

We built a cooking island and a gas fire pit.  We love them both, but wow is that gas fireplace nice!  No smoke and when you are done the fire is too.  No flying embers to light up the neighbors.


 

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2020 19:01:49 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

@pinkcshmere - I would first draw up a wish list and brief description what and where things might be placed and then submit to your neighborhood association for their feedback.

Once you know what you can and can't do we might be able to help with suggestions.

Our association doesn’t have a million rules like some do. It basically boils down to keep your property neat and well maintained, no signs in your yard and no commercial vehicles. The retaining wall..... the land behind us is split into 3 sections as to ownership. And one of those sections has some weird rule that may affect what we can do along that part of our property line, as explained to me by the President of our association. I don’t know where that specific piece of land is, so I’d have to do some research and find all that out. It’s not the association, it was just easier to say them.

A lot of houses in our neighborhood have retaining walls.

If we build that part of the yard up, won’t we need something to keep the soil from eroding? The only possible solution I can think of is a retaining wall. But I’m open to other possible solutions.

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2020 20:27:33 GMT -5 irishpad said:

Nov 9, 2020 20:16:58 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Idk what you mean by drain tile?

Part of our backyard is not really usable because of the way  it slopes. Regardless of what else we do, I’d like to make that part of the yard usable.

There’s actually a patio underneath our deck. As far as we can tell peering through gaps between boards on the deck, it’s not that much smaller than the deck, and has steps leading to it from the same door we use to access the deck.

We’ve both mentioned tearing the deck down and rolling with what’s underneath. That would simplify a lot of things, but so far, we haven’t seriously considered it.

Drain tile is something that is used in both landscaping and agricultural fields ( the part I'm more familial with)  It is ceramic tile (currently mostly plastic instead of ceramic) that is put in  4-10 feel below the ground and it has openings in it structure that can take in water and then drain it off to a separate location.   In farming situations, the drain tile is put in locations in the field that would be wet spots, swampy areas.  The tiling allows the farming to get into those areas earlier than normal and plant the crop for the year.   In your situation, it would help keep that area of your yard somewhat dry or at least not swampy.  

Thank you for explaining that. The part that collects water, I think our property line stops just before it and runs parallel to it.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 10, 2020 11:02:48 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 9, 2020 19:01:49 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

@pinkcshmere - I would first draw up a wish list and brief description what and where things might be placed and then submit to your neighborhood association for their feedback.

Once you know what you can and can't do we might be able to help with suggestions.

Our association doesn’t have a million rules like some do. It basically boils down to keep your property neat and well maintained, no signs in your yard and no commercial vehicles. The retaining wall..... the land behind us is split into 3 sections as to ownership. And one of those sections has some weird rule that may affect what we can do along that part of our property line, as explained to me by the President of our association. I don’t know where that specific piece of land is, so I’d have to do some research and find all that out. It’s not the association, it was just easier to say them.

A lot of houses in our neighborhood have retaining walls.

If we build that part of the yard up, won’t we need something to keep the soil from eroding? The only possible solution I can think of is a retaining wall. But I’m open to other possible solutions.

Thanks for the clarification.

Possibility of a retaining wall. Also consider plants and shrubs with deep roots which help stabilize the soil.

Not that we have a lot of hills in our area but often times you will see plants and shrubs planted on hillsides. They are planted to hold the soil.

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2020 23:15:30 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I am biased. I have a healthy respect for water. Is the slope of your yard (and I'm guessing your neighbors yards) to help channel water during rain storms away from the houses and streets?

I have a hard time thinking the builders of the subdivision didn't consider the water flow when they built it. What happens to the "water flow" if you level some of the yard and add in a retaining wall? Will the natural flow of water erode your newly leveled area and eventually destroy your wall? Will water be shunted to other undesirable places like your or a neighbors basement or turn some other area of your or a neighbors yard into a pond?

Water is a powerful thing.  You can't always bend Mother Nature to your will.  Respect her/it.    That said, you should be able to accomplish what you want but you may have to compromise on some things because of the drainage issues.  

It’s an old neighborhood and very little of it is flat. Some house sit much higher than the one next door. Some have steep front yards and very steep driveways. 

I didn’t think about water flow. The slope is situated so that I’m sure it does help water drain away from the house, intentional or not. We don’t have house behind us or next to us on that side. It’s just fields of grass. I’ll have to think some more about your questions. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 0:30:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Do you need more yard space? 

Filling and grading part of your property is going to be expensive.  It is quite literally a hole you plan to thousands of dollars in to.  If you’re building a flat spot to put a much needed garage and storage space, that’s one thing.  If you’d be spending a lot of money so you can have more yard to mow, that’s probably another.  

Adding fill to part of your property doesn’t make your property any bigger.  So I suspect that you would not recover your investment if you sold the property.  You might want figure out what the fill, retaining wall and grading job is likely to cost and consult with a real estate appraiser to see if filling the sloped area will increase the value of the property enough justify the investment.

By the way, I think you’re on track when you think about preserving your view.  A good view adds value to your property.  When we bought our house, we paid a whole bunch of money to get a lot with a great view, instead of buying a lot on the other side of the street with a view of a dirt slope. Messing up the view might actually reduce the value of your property.  

Well, we have to mow it already, so that part doesn’t matter. We definitely need at least a shed, a garage isn’t absolutely necessary, but it would be nice. I like thyme4change’s suggestions about building a garage that’s big enough for storage too and just have the one structure.

The problem is that the most logical place to build it will mess up my favorite view and take up a good portion of the yard that’s useable.

For me, enjoying my backyard justifies the investment. I spend a lot of time outside when the weather’s nice.

I know I will have to consult with a variety of experts to get it all done, I just want to have a clear idea of what I’d like to do and where so I know the right questions to ask.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 8:52:46 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I want my wooden deck to be gone, but I'm afraid to do it because of resale.

Next spring, it needs a lot of work.

I’ve always thought decks must be awesome to have. Now after having one, I’m kind of over it. A spacious patio would serve my purposes just as well. And be less trouble. 

[Ryan]

Nov 10, 2020 11:16:14 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 9, 2020 23:15:30 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I am biased. I have a healthy respect for water. Is the slope of your yard (and I'm guessing your neighbors yards) to help channel water during rain storms away from the houses and streets?

I have a hard time thinking the builders of the subdivision didn't consider the water flow when they built it. What happens to the "water flow" if you level some of the yard and add in a retaining wall? Will the natural flow of water erode your newly leveled area and eventually destroy your wall? Will water be shunted to other undesirable places like your or a neighbors basement or turn some other area of your or a neighbors yard into a pond?

Water is a powerful thing.  You can't always bend Mother Nature to your will.  Respect her/it.    That said, you should be able to accomplish what you want but you may have to compromise on some things because of the drainage issues.  

It’s an old neighborhood and very little of it is flat. Some house sit much higher than the one next door. Some have steep front yards and very steep driveways. 

I didn’t think about water flow. The slope is situated so that I’m sure it does help water drain away from the house, intentional or not. We don’t have house behind us or next to us on that side. It’s just fields of grass. I’ll have to think some more about your questions. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Tiny is right, I personally wouldn't do anything, I would leave it and maybe figure out a way to make it not so swampy (drain tile).  You get a better idea for how water flows when you have a big rainstorm and can see it moving.  I know in my area the original developers did a lot of things for drainage that were later removed by homeowners.  

[stillmovingforward]

Have a drainage/water survey done before anything. If you do work that causes someone else's property to be inundated with water, you are at fault and must pay to fix it. They can sue you to force the issue.
I know, I had to do it. Neighbor built a house, cheaped out on the drainage work, causing rain to flood across the street and soggy up my lawn and foundation. Court was required to make them fix it because, no problem until they built and covered so much of the property in gravel and concrete. Without proper drainage that they didn't want to put in because it was expensive and didn't look good. 🤔

[irishpad]

Nov 10, 2020 11:43:08 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 10, 2020 8:52:46 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I want my wooden deck to be gone, but I'm afraid to do it because of resale.

Next spring, it needs a lot of work.

I’ve always thought decks must be awesome to have. Now after having one, I’m kind of over it. A spacious patio would serve my purposes just as well. And be less trouble. 

I agree.   I think small decks, like outside the master bedroom, make great sense, enjoy the morning sunrise/coffee.   But would much rather have a nicely designed patio than a deck.   Much less upkeep in the long term.   That patio that I built and talked about earlier, the only upkeep was to re-stain the cedar fence board every couple of years.  Looks great.  When we built it, it took about 13 gallons of stain to do the boards initially, since then, only about 1-2 gallons every other year.   Unlike decks, you don't have to worry about structural issues.  

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 12:04:58 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Nov 10, 2020 11:16:14 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

It’s an old neighborhood and very little of it is flat. Some house sit much higher than the one next door. Some have steep front yards and very steep driveways. 

I didn’t think about water flow. The slope is situated so that I’m sure it does help water drain away from the house, intentional or not. We don’t have house behind us or next to us on that side. It’s just fields of grass. I’ll have to think some more about your questions. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Tiny is right, I personally wouldn't do anything, I would leave it and maybe figure out a way to make it not so swampy (drain tile).  You get a better idea for how water flows when you have a big rainstorm and can see it moving.  I know in my area the original developers did a lot of things for drainage that were later removed by homeowners.  

I’m not explaining things well, I’m sorry. The part of the yard I want to “fix”, doesn’t collect water. I want to fix the slope itself. It slopes down and the land beside us (no house or building on it, just grass and trees until it reaches a street) slopes down, the low part where they meet is where the little “creek” forms. I don’t think that’s part of our yard. We have to get a survey done anyway, to mark our property lines, so I’ll know for sure after that.

If we don’t fix the slope, when we put up a fence, it still won’t give us the privacy we want. The fence on that side would be so low that you’d still be able to see into our back yard. Ugh! Maybe we should just plant some trees over there or something to block the view eventually.

I didn’t think making it more level would be a big deal, besides the money. But that’s why I have you all to bounce ideas off of, so you can point out potential problems.

[CCL]

In addition to checking with your HOA, be sure to check with your city and/or county. Around here, if you just start moving dirt the city engineer may show up at your door. They take drainage issues seriously. Your area may be different, but I've found if I talk to them in advance, they are very helpful and it saves me from having to change my plans later.

[TheOtherMe]

This small town has major drainage problems.  Don't even think of draining in to your neighbors yard or you will be visited by someone from the city.  The neighbor will be quick to call the city.  The city had to order someone who changed their drainage to put it back the way it was this summer.