First Debate

[buystoys]

Oct 2, 2020 22:54:24 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Oct 1, 2020 16:22:54 GMT -5 buystoys said:

I never said that he offered any.  Nor did I expect him to.  I was discussing Biden.  I don't have to discuss both of them like they are on some kind of equal footing.

Well, you do have to vote for one of them. Unless you plan to throw away your vote

I plan to vote my conscience.  Right now that is Dr. Jo Jorgenson.  You can believe what you like about throwing away my vote.  I feel it is a viable option in an attempt to get Federal funding for campaigning by a third party.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 1, 2020 19:27:51 GMT -5 @x said:

Sept 29, 2020 18:30:45 GMT -5 flan327 said:

And the fact the he truly believes most Americans are too stupid to figure out that he LIES constantly

He's not the ONLY one.  

well, that is true.

imgflip.com/i/15yf8l

[Gardening Grandma]

Oct 3, 2020 7:35:57 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 2, 2020 22:54:24 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Well, you do have to vote for one of them. Unless you plan to throw away your vote

I plan to vote my conscience.  Right now that is Dr. Jo Jorgenson.  You can believe what you like about throwing away my vote.  I feel it is a viable option in an attempt to get Federal funding for campaigning by a third party.

So you are choosing to help trump. Got it.

[buystoys]

Oct 3, 2020 19:20:02 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Oct 3, 2020 7:35:57 GMT -5 buystoys said:

I plan to vote my conscience.  Right now that is Dr. Jo Jorgenson.  You can believe what you like about throwing away my vote.  I feel it is a viable option in an attempt to get Federal funding for campaigning by a third party.

So you are choosing to help trump. Got it.

Isn't it great that in America we can vote without coercion?

[billisonboard]

Oct 4, 2020 7:39:36 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 3, 2020 19:20:02 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

So you are choosing to help trump. Got it.

Isn't it great that in America we can vote without coercion?

Yes.

[pulmonarymd]

Sure, but unless you live in a state where the outcome is clear, in this election, voting third party is a cop out. The stakes are that high

[buystoys]

Voting your conscience is never a cop out.  Voting for someone because people shame you into it, even though you disagree with that candidate's ability to govern, is coercion. 

If either major party wanted my vote, they could put up a candidate I can endorse.

[flan327]

Oct 4, 2020 8:44:09 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Voting your conscience is never a cop out.  Voting for someone because people shame you into it, even though you disagree with that candidate's ability to govern, is coercion. 

If either major party wanted my vote, they could put up a candidate I can endorse.

So YOU think that you are the only one who matters?

[flan327]

Oct 4, 2020 7:39:36 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 3, 2020 19:20:02 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

So you are choosing to help trump. Got it.

Isn't it great that in America we can vote without coercion?

I think it's great that we can speak our mind.

🗽

[buystoys]

Oct 4, 2020 9:04:09 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Oct 4, 2020 8:44:09 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Voting your conscience is never a cop out.  Voting for someone because people shame you into it, even though you disagree with that candidate's ability to govern, is coercion. 

If either major party wanted my vote, they could put up a candidate I can endorse.

So YOU think that you are the only one who matters?

I am the most important person to myself.  If I don't take care of myself physically, emotionally, and mentally, no one else will.  Following my conscience rather than being coerced into taking an action I disagree with is taking care of my emotional and mental self. 

[flan327]

Oct 4, 2020 9:07:43 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:04:09 GMT -5 flan327 said:

So YOU think that you are the only one who matters?

I am the most important person to myself.  If I don't take care of myself physically, emotionally, and mentally, no one else will.  Following my conscience rather than being coerced into taking an action I disagree with is taking care of my emotional and mental self. 

Okey dokey

There is a fine line between selfishness and selflessness

No one is "coercing" you, just stating the TRUTH

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true

[buystoys]

Oct 4, 2020 9:11:49 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:07:43 GMT -5 buystoys said:

I am the most important person to myself.  If I don't take care of myself physically, emotionally, and mentally, no one else will.  Following my conscience rather than being coerced into taking an action I disagree with is taking care of my emotional and mental self. 

Okey dokey

There is a fine line between selfishness and selflessness

No one is "coercing" you, just stating the TRUTH

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true

Attempting to bully someone into taking an action you believe is "better" is coercion. 

coerced; coercing
Definition of coerce

transitive verb
1 : to compel to an act or choice

----was coerced into agreeing

[mary2029]

Oct 4, 2020 8:44:09 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Voting your conscience is never a cop out.  Voting for someone because people shame you into it, even though you disagree with that candidate's ability to govern, is coercion. 

If either major party wanted my vote, they could put up a candidate I can endorse.

Buystoys... I agree with your sentiment. I voted 3rd party in 2016 after months of going back and forth and talking to supporters on both sides. 

I wish that there was a viable third party. 

[billisonboard]

Oct 4, 2020 9:14:27 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:11:49 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Okey dokey

There is a fine line between selfishness and selflessness

No one is "coercing" you, just stating the TRUTH

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true

Attempting to bully someone into taking an action you believe is "better" is coercion. 

coerced; coercing
Definition of coerce

transitive verb
1 : to compel to an act or choice

----was coerced into agreeing

I feel it would certainly be better if all the discussions here were intellectual instead of emotional.

[mary2029]

Oct 4, 2020 9:11:49 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:07:43 GMT -5 buystoys said:

I am the most important person to myself.  If I don't take care of myself physically, emotionally, and mentally, no one else will.  Following my conscience rather than being coerced into taking an action I disagree with is taking care of my emotional and mental self. 

Okey dokey

There is a fine line between selfishness and selflessness

No one is "coercing" you, just stating the TRUTH

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true

Please point out what statement was the TRUTH and not an opinion. 

[buystoys]

Oct 4, 2020 9:19:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:14:27 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Attempting to bully someone into taking an action you believe is "better" is coercion. 

coerced; coercing
Definition of coerce

transitive verb
1 : to compel to an act or choice

----was coerced into agreeing

I feel it would certainly be better if all the discussions here were intellectual instead of emotional.

I agree as well.   

[billisonboard]

Oct 4, 2020 9:18:39 GMT -5 mary2029 said:

Oct 4, 2020 8:44:09 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Voting your conscience is never a cop out.  Voting for someone because people shame you into it, even though you disagree with that candidate's ability to govern, is coercion. 

If either major party wanted my vote, they could put up a candidate I can endorse.

Buystoys... I agree with your sentiment. I voted 3rd party in 2016 after months of going back and forth and talking to supporters on both sides. 

I wish that there was a viable third party. 

I do agree on voting third party but not on the shaming/coercion part. If you are "shamed" by comments on an anonymous message board to a point of changing your vote, that is on you.

Personally, I decide if I could live with the Republican candidate winning. If I decide I can, I vote third party. If not, I vote for the Democratic candidate.

[billisonboard]

Oct 4, 2020 9:29:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:19:08 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I feel it would certainly be better if all the discussions here were intellectual instead of emotional.

I agree as well.   

Hopefully you caught that was a joke.

[buystoys]

Oct 4, 2020 9:27:27 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:20:17 GMT -5 mary2029 said:

Please point out what statement was the TRUTH and not an opinion. 

Does buystoys need HELP?

Every single one of you who has addressed me on this topic has commented on my "mistake" in choice of candidate.  None of you have done anything positive, such as presenting a plank of Biden's platform and enlarging upon how it will help our country.  There have been multiple opportunities as I've responded to turn this whole conversation around to facts that may convince me to change my mind.  Instead, I get multiple statements about how I'm selfish or how I'm making a mistake in my choice.

The negative manner of all the comments has colored the way I feel about the Democratic Party.  It's been going on for almost four years.  There is very little discussion about what can be done to turn things around and considerable discussion about stupidity and other unfavorable aspects.

I don't need to be told how to vote.  I don't need to be told that none of you are attempting to convince me to vote for Biden when it is clear you will continue to demean me if I don't.  I'm very comfortable with my stance.  If  you feel there is a positive way to present Biden that might move me, then please PM me.  I am done with this discussion.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 4, 2020 9:37:02 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:27:27 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Does buystoys need HELP?

Every single one of you who has addressed me on this topic has commented on my "mistake" in choice of candidate.  None of you have done anything positive, such as presenting a plank of Biden's platform and enlarging upon how it will help our country.  There have been multiple opportunities as I've responded to turn this whole conversation around to facts that may convince me to change my mind.  Instead, I get multiple statements about how I'm selfish or how I'm making a mistake in my choice.

The negative manner of all the comments has colored the way I feel about the Democratic Party.  It's been going on for almost four years.  There is very little discussion about what can be done to turn things around and considerable discussion about stupidity and other unfavorable aspects.

I don't need to be told how to vote.  I don't need to be told that none of you are attempting to convince me to vote for Biden when it is clear you will continue to demean me if I don't.  I'm very comfortable with my stance.  If  you feel there is a positive way to present Biden that might move me, then please PM me.  I am done with this discussion.

I agree in principle that you can vote however your conscience dictates. Unfortunately, there are times where the danger faced requires us to vote in a way to minimize the risk to our nation. Re-electing trump will do irreparable damage to our democracy in my opinion, so ensuring that does not happen is more important than voting my conscience in this election. I am not a democrat, and have voted for republicans in the past. But the unwillingness to follow norms, protocols, and more importantly, the constitution, and the inability to rein trump in in any way, makes this the most important election in our lifetime

[flan327]

Biden's plans when he is elected can be found ANYWHERE

Unless you live under a rock

[flan327]

Oct 4, 2020 9:31:48 GMT -5 mary2029 said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:27:27 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Does buystoys need HELP?

Excuse me? I didn't realize that this was a private conversation or that I no longer had freedom of speech.
Are you deflecting? 
I repeat:  Please point out what statement was the TRUTH and not an opinion.  

No

[mary2029]

Oct 4, 2020 9:55:11 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:31:48 GMT -5 mary2029 said:

Excuse me? I didn't realize that this was a private conversation or that I no longer had freedom of speech.
Are you deflecting? 
I repeat:  Please point out what statement was the TRUTH and not an opinion.  

No

Thank you for the clarification that you did not make a truthful statement, but only stated an opinion.  I thought I had missed something. 

[laterbloomer]

Oct 4, 2020 9:14:27 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:11:49 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Okey dokey

There is a fine line between selfishness and selflessness

No one is "coercing" you, just stating the TRUTH

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true

Attempting to bully someone into taking an action you believe is "better" is coercion. 

coerced; coercing
Definition of coerce

transitive verb
1 : to compel to an act or choice

----was coerced into agreeing

Compel - to force or oblige
She's really working on talking you into it but she's not forcing you to vote for Biden. She can't.

[flan327]

Has anyone ever read Molly Ivins?

[Opti]

Oct 4, 2020 9:37:02 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:27:27 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Does buystoys need HELP?

Every single one of you who has addressed me on this topic has commented on my "mistake" in choice of candidate.  None of you have done anything positive, such as presenting a plank of Biden's platform and enlarging upon how it will help our country.  There have been multiple opportunities as I've responded to turn this whole conversation around to facts that may convince me to change my mind.  Instead, I get multiple statements about how I'm selfish or how I'm making a mistake in my choice.

The negative manner of all the comments has colored the way I feel about the Democratic Party.  It's been going on for almost four years.  There is very little discussion about what can be done to turn things around and considerable discussion about stupidity and other unfavorable aspects.

I don't need to be told how to vote.  I don't need to be told that none of you are attempting to convince me to vote for Biden when it is clear you will continue to demean me if I don't.  I'm very comfortable with my stance.  If  you feel there is a positive way to present Biden that might move me, then please PM me.  I am done with this discussion.

In 2016, I was more willing to try to sell someone on Hillary Clinton, with Trump destroying much of our federal infrastructure in government, which I have posted about, I haven't followed the platform as much as I did then. Unfortunately with the campaign being in fundraise mode I couldn't seem to get to the platform on his website, which I think is a mistake. I did find this though-


www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/joe-biden/
Without knowing what is important to you personally, I do not know what you want to know or what you would find important. As usual I disagree with a few positions like giving the military more money, and believe others should be tempered. I agree with him on for profit charter schools as leaving public schools with a mandate to teach everyone with possible diminishing funds seems very unfair to those who cannot qualify for charter schools or afford them.

[flan327]

Trump has had THREE YEARS to prove himself

He has been IMPEACHED

He shows NO respect for our CONSTITUTION

What more "proof" does any rational human being need?

[thyme4change]

Oct 4, 2020 9:37:02 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:27:27 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Does buystoys need HELP?

Every single one of you who has addressed me on this topic has commented on my "mistake" in choice of candidate.  None of you have done anything positive, such as presenting a plank of Biden's platform and enlarging upon how it will help our country.  There have been multiple opportunities as I've responded to turn this whole conversation around to facts that may convince me to change my mind.  Instead, I get multiple statements about how I'm selfish or how I'm making a mistake in my choice.

The negative manner of all the comments has colored the way I feel about the Democratic Party.  It's been going on for almost four years.  There is very little discussion about what can be done to turn things around and considerable discussion about stupidity and other unfavorable aspects.

I don't need to be told how to vote.  I don't need to be told that none of you are attempting to convince me to vote for Biden when it is clear you will continue to demean me if I don't.  I'm very comfortable with my stance.  If  you feel there is a positive way to present Biden that might move me, then please PM me.  I am done with this discussion.

I agree that you are not required to vote for one of the two major candidates, even if you are in a swing state. Some people ( including me) see the reality of a binary choice. One of these two men will be president (barring some tragic medical issue) and I would prefer to be part of the real decision. However, you voting for neither of them also sends a message and is better than not voting at all. They know who is voting and who is being reached.

As far as Biden's platform, I did a very lengthy post on another thread, which I won't be able to recreate, but there are a few things which are very key to me.

Healthcare is number 1. The GOP had 2 years where they had the ability to pass something, anything, and 2 more years to work it in a more bipartisan way. And now they are using the courts to take away the structure we have, but have come up with not a single solution for the problem. Joe's platform is to add a publoc option. This would make medicare available to anyone who isn't getting satisfactory coverage elsewhere. This won't be bad news for anyone covered by an employer - I have searched tirelessly for how a public option will change my ability to use my insurance (pick my own Dr. Etc) and the very best and brightest don't have a good reason for that - other than the changes the ACA brought. That was a different deal because that fundamentally changed how private insurers had to do business. That just isn't true with adding the public option. So, if you have employer healthcare how would this be goof for you and your country?
▪︎ People who run small businesses will be able to hire employees without having to provide Healthcare, or offer crazy wages to be competitive. This should create jobs, which boost the economy. It also might keep small businesses in the hands of small business owners, instead of consolidation of industry in 'too big to fail' companies.
▪︎Medicare can provide services in a fairly efficient manner, and will educate people how to use the resources better. This may bring down overall costs of uninsured patients getting treatment, which gets passed along to us.
▪︎ Medicare has a high satisfaction rate. Private insurance companies have supplemental programs, which brings up the overall level of service. Insurance companies profit, so industry will not be destroyed by the availability of a public option.
▪︎ We will not have a jolting change which disrupts care nor the economy.

Taxes - Biden wants to close loop holes that keep successful billionaires that live in gilded houses from paying next to zero in taxes. The increases he is proposing outside of those loop holes will cost people who earn $500,000 per year an additional $2,500 in taxes. As someone who makes about half that, I am not shedding any tears for those people.

He wants to change the tax code around international business, keeping more money in the USA. I gotta be honest here and say that I don't know enough about corporate tax law to have an intelligent discussion about this one, so i guess just the concept that he wants to do it either sounds good to you or not. No, I'm not worried that people will take their money and leave, because we still have a pretty low tax burden on individuals versus other similar in lifestyle countries. Also, there are places that have lower tax burdens already, that may have a fairly different social structure. Anyone who thinks they pay too much here already has their money stashed in Hungary or wherever.

He wants to raise the minimum wage. Study after study after study prove that the fastest way to inject money into the economy and boost it up is to give money to the poorest people. People like me, I just put it in savings and then come to this board and tell everyone my top 10% net worth level. I don't do much to change the economy, good or bad, D or R. As long as my income doesn't disappear or decrease drastically, I keep spending approximately the same amount. I did nothing with the tax benefit I got from Trump’s plan. I didn't even put it into the market. It is just sitting in savings. So, by moving money to people who are hand to mouth, the economic growth will increase. Money to fund the higher wages will come from the pockets of shareholders.

Dealing with COVID is also a super big deal for me. No matter what Trump says, he botched the initial response, botched the PPE supply chain management, botched the testing protocol and very much botched the messaging. Biden is going to listen to scientists and put reasonable and helpful measures into place. Things that are working in other countries, and could work here, too. The economy isn't shut down because of government restrictions, it is shut down because people don't want to end up in the hospital. I'm not going to the movies or out to dinner until I see a decent plan that is put into action.

The bankruptcy reform bill he is proposing fixes a lot of stuff that has been broken in our system for a bit. This will also put more money back into the economy.

And then the equality/racial stuff. I'm not sue what the Democrats will do about it. I know that Joe is NOT a supporter of defunding police. I also know that police departments are funded locally, so the national political landscape on this isn't as impactful as hysterics are trying to tell us. What I do know is that Joe will listen and acknowledge the problem. I generally find when people are acting up, the first step is listening to them. It generally calms the situation, even if you can't give them what they want.


Joe isn't my favorite candidate ever, but there are some good ideas inside his platform. And they are moderate policies, not crazy left wing-ding shit. No matter what the propoganda says - Joe's America wouldn't be a communist state. It would be a reasonable place where about 60% of his ideas would be implemented in some watered down fashion. Because that is how this works.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 4, 2020 9:47:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 4, 2020 9:37:02 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Every single one of you who has addressed me on this topic has commented on my "mistake" in choice of candidate.  None of you have done anything positive, such as presenting a plank of Biden's platform and enlarging upon how it will help our country.  There have been multiple opportunities as I've responded to turn this whole conversation around to facts that may convince me to change my mind.  Instead, I get multiple statements about how I'm selfish or how I'm making a mistake in my choice.

The negative manner of all the comments has colored the way I feel about the Democratic Party.  It's been going on for almost four years.  There is very little discussion about what can be done to turn things around and considerable discussion about stupidity and other unfavorable aspects.

I don't need to be told how to vote.  I don't need to be told that none of you are attempting to convince me to vote for Biden when it is clear you will continue to demean me if I don't.  I'm very comfortable with my stance.  If  you feel there is a positive way to present Biden that might move me, then please PM me.  I am done with this discussion.

I agree in principle that you can vote however your conscience dictates. Unfortunately, there are times where the danger faced requires us to vote in a way to minimize the risk to our nation. Re-electing trump will do irreparable damage to our democracy in my opinion, so ensuring that does not happen is more important than voting my conscience in this election. I am not a democrat, and have voted for republicans in the past. But the unwillingness to follow norms, protocols, and more importantly, the constitution, and the inability to rein trump in in any way, makes this the most important election in our lifetime

I'm a moderate, and echo everything stated here. I'd love to have a viable 3rd/4th party available, but this is an emergency situation.

[dondub]

Oct 4, 2020 10:13:00 GMT -5 flan327 said:

Has anyone ever read Molly Ivins?

Not since Jan. 2007 when she died.