Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 10:49:53 GMT -5
Hi Team. So I was absent for a while again, but coming back as a refuge from other social media that’s a daily downer. Here’s an update and a question that I don’t want to deal with with friends and family IRL. What do you think of this:
I put the career on hold in 2015, with a plan to spend more time with family. I have 2 current income streams - a small biz that we’re growing, and consulting in the old career field. As we approached $50k in income in 2018, my spreadsheets said (sadly) that I’d basically have to make around $80k to take home any more money due to Marketplace caps, DS’s impending college costs, and a couple of other things.
So I didn’t, and I haven’t.
The consulting opportunities are there, but I have arbitrarily limited myself to stay under $50k. Any business monies I reinvest so that the business shows $0 profits. My son is getting a $70k/yr education for free, my daughter is on reduced lunch and Medicaid, and when I’m not consulting (like 35 weeks/yr) the wife and I work about 20 hours/week each on the biz. DD is a junior in HS, so there will be more incentive to stay the course for the next 5-6 years. I know we’re blessed to have these choices and income, but I pretty regularly feel like I’m gaming the system. Am I “what’s wrong with America,” or is it more like “living the American dream?” My opinion changes regularly.
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oped
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Post by oped on Sept 21, 2020 10:52:37 GMT -5
Nope. You utilize the system that exists. Lord knows billionaires do. I'm not working for the same reason. Tuition and health insurance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 11:21:12 GMT -5
What a relief! My eyes aren't what they used to be and they saw "Mortality check."
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 21, 2020 11:35:13 GMT -5
Work smarter, not harder is my motto. I no longer feel like I'm gaming the system for the things we do. We don't keep our income super low to qualify for social services. But, we do keep it low enough so that we don't have to pay taxes on our dividends. Bush tax credits did more for us than having 1-2 kids tax wise. We also receive a fair amount of money from the gov't because we have four kids under 17. I figure it will be about 30K between the covid stimulus and refundable portions of the CTC. More, if you go back to when Obama handed out money for buying a house is 209. That was worth another 6K for us,
My only thing is that you stay balanced with current and future needs. I don't have problem with getting 30K from the gov't now, because I don't think we'll even see half of our SS benefit in 20 years. But, that means I still have to make sure that I'm on track for retirement, excluding SS.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Sept 21, 2020 11:39:08 GMT -5
It does rub me the wrong way. Not so much the tuition but the free lunch and Medicaid. Those are safety nets designed for people who need help not for people who are artificially keeping their income low to qualify. We're also not talking about poor people for whom a very slight increase in income disqualifies them from all assistance. I'm a good liberal in the sense that I don't think those programs adequately address need but my argument to increase funding is undermined when people 'game' the system.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 11:51:28 GMT -5
Work smarter, not harder is my motto. I no longer feel like I'm gaming the system for the things we do ... But, that means I still have to make sure that I'm on track for retirement, excluding SS.
Yes. Retirement additions are on hold, that’s true. Savings that we had before are mostly intact and growing, though. Took 2 years for the NW to make up the trip and immediate income loss. The NW is another reason that I feel a bit guilty. We have balances that a family our age making $45k shouldn’t have. Not atmospheric, but definitely higher than normal. I think our original goal to retire at 52 has lost about 3 years so far, but it’s holding now.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 11:53:20 GMT -5
Nope. You utilize the system that exists. Lord knows billionaires do. I'm not working for the same reason. Tuition and health insurance. Well, that’s one thing that has me paying close attention this election cycle. If Marketplace healthcare is removed or replaced, it might be back to full-time work out of necessity.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Sept 21, 2020 11:54:56 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with what you are doing. We do have too many wealthy people who pay no taxes because of tax situations that we can't take advantage of.
As for the reduced lunch at school, around here most schools are doing free breakfast and lunch five days a week for all students.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 11:58:23 GMT -5
It does rub me the wrong way. Not so much the tuition but the free lunch and Medicaid. Those are safety nets designed for people who need help not for people who are artificially keeping their income low to qualify. We're also not talking about poor people for whom a very slight increase in income disqualifies them from all assistance. I'm a good liberal in the sense that I don't think those programs adequately address need but my argument to increase funding is undermined when people 'game' the system. I have this exact feeling during the winter after summer and fall harvest, when the work drops to 5hrs/week each. But when we sign up for health insurance, DD is disallowed and directed to Medicaid. We cannot add her to our program. She’s also veggie, so we prep her lunch daily anyway, but your points are definitely valid.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 21, 2020 12:01:52 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with what you are doing. We do have too many wealthy people who pay no taxes because of tax situations that we can't take advantage of. As for the reduced lunch at school, around here most schools are doing free breakfast and lunch five days a week for all students. Even my kids school is doing that until the end of the calendar year. I'm thinking it might be a national thing.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Sept 21, 2020 12:04:16 GMT -5
Since I'm not a parent, I only know that it's happening but I don't know the reason.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 21, 2020 12:08:06 GMT -5
It does rub me the wrong way. Not so much the tuition but the free lunch and Medicaid. Those are safety nets designed for people who need help not for people who are artificially keeping their income low to qualify. We're also not talking about poor people for whom a very slight increase in income disqualifies them from all assistance. I'm a good liberal in the sense that I don't think those programs adequately address need but my argument to increase funding is undermined when people 'game' the system. I have this exact feeling during the winter after summer and fall harvest, when the work drops to 5hrs/week each. But when we sign up for health insurance, DD is disallowed and directed to Medicaid. We cannot add her to our program. She’s also veggie, so we prep her lunch daily anyway, but your points are definitely valid. The problem with being dependent upon Medicaid is that if you ever need any sort of major professional treatment, you will find your options are limited as to providers. As long as you are healthy, all is good. Having dealt with this, I was treated as if I were a Medicaid patient in the hospital. As a result, I got incredibly shoddy treatment (including withholding pain meds). When you can walk (or crutch) away, as I did when I got my ducks in a row, treatment improves.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 21, 2020 12:14:10 GMT -5
About 7 years ago I quit my job, then my DH lost his job about 6 months later. We went on ACA for insurance, but you had to estimate your income to determine your subsidy. Well, who TF knows when they're going to be hired and at what pay for the rest of the year? We went just high enough to get us out of Medicaid territory, and it turned out to be close to actual, as it only took a few months for my husband to get a better paying job.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 12:14:51 GMT -5
I have this exact feeling during the winter after summer and fall harvest, when the work drops to 5hrs/week each. But when we sign up for health insurance, DD is disallowed and directed to Medicaid. We cannot add her to our program. She’s also veggie, so we prep her lunch daily anyway, but your points are definitely valid. The problem with being dependent upon Medicaid is that if you ever need any sort of major professional treatment, you will find your options are limited as to providers. As long as you are healthy, all is good. Having dealt with this, I was treated as if I were a Medicaid patient in the hospital. As a result, I got incredibly shoddy treatment (including withholding pain meds). When you can walk (or crutch) away, as I did when I got my ducks in a row, treatment improves. Yes. I’ve heard this, and we do have quite a drive for some specialists that take Medicaid. We are fortunate that we’ve not had need for serious treatment for the kids. DS is now 19 and off Medicaid (he’s on insurance provided by his school). DD is 17 soon, so only a couple more years for her.
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oped
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Post by oped on Sept 21, 2020 12:17:50 GMT -5
I would always inflate my income expectations for healthcare.gov to keep daughter off CHIP and on our family plan. The last few years they would say they needed to check eligibility and I'd just tell CHIP she didn't qualify and they'd give me a refusal and then I could add her on our plan.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 12:27:36 GMT -5
Our state did not accept the federal help to expand Medicaid, so there is a huge gap in insurance availability. We always projected our income to be high enough to jump the gap and did everything we could to meet it.
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Sept 21, 2020 13:02:45 GMT -5
It is one thing if you are a single parent or need help, but I am not sure this is a good strategy for a lot of people.
I would rather earn more and pay my own debts, but for each his/her own.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 21, 2020 13:24:27 GMT -5
It kind of sounds like you've FI/RE'd. (in that you aren't working a 40hour week for "the man". and you've kept your expenses low. ) Is your income below the median household income for your area? What is your years of lower income/not paying into SS/maybe not saving so much for retirement doing to your actual retirement plans?
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 13:31:33 GMT -5
It is one thing if you are a single parent or need help, but I am not sure this is a good strategy for a lot of people. I would rather earn more and pay my own debts, but for each his/her own. I do struggle with it. But I pay my debts, and haven't lied or embellished at all on my applications or reports. I'm just not making what I could. It is true that by making less, we qualify for free healthcare for one of our children. It is also true that my son's college lowers his costs based on our income. But again, I hid none of our income or savings information from anyone. I do plan to earn more once the kids are past college, but a huge amount of my earnings now would just disappear to college and healthcare, so it kind of doesn't make sense to do so.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 13:45:25 GMT -5
It kind of sounds like you've FI/RE'd. (in that you aren't working a 40hour week for "the man". and you've kept your expenses low. ) Is your income below the median household income for your area? What is your years of lower income/not paying into SS/maybe not saving so much for retirement doing to your actual retirement plans? Income and expenses are both right at the median household income for our area (~$45k/yr). We downsized after our mid-life crisis trip. Currently no car note, mortgage of $850/month, etc. Kid 1's college being $2k/yr instead of $75k definitely affects that. We still have enough savings outside of retirement accounts to offset yearly travel and one-off expenses. We are definitely not FI (which would be so nice!), since the NW isn't 20x expenses. I think our original goal to fully retire at 52 has lost about 3 years so far, but it’s holding now. New lifestyle expenses are so low that the 20-25x goal for a SWR of 4-5% feels attainable by 55. I do definitely like not working for "the man." I am very much looking forward to DD's soccer and track seasons.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 21, 2020 14:07:06 GMT -5
The problem with being dependent upon Medicaid is that if you ever need any sort of major professional treatment, you will find your options are limited as to providers. As long as you are healthy, all is good. Having dealt with this, I was treated as if I were a Medicaid patient in the hospital. As a result, I got incredibly shoddy treatment (including withholding pain meds). When you can walk (or crutch) away, as I did when I got my ducks in a row, treatment improves. Yes. I’ve heard this, and we do have quite a drive for some specialists that take Medicaid. We are fortunate that we’ve not had need for serious treatment for the kids. DS is now 19 and off Medicaid (he’s on insurance provided by his school). DD is 17 soon, so only a couple more years for her. So what happens when they get out of college? This assumes that the college continues to provide health insurance, but once they leave it will be nil. At least if they were on your insurance, your children would have a few years in order to get a job where they are offered insurance. FWIW, I have 3 nieces and nephews that have gotten out of college and are employed in their field. For 2/3, it took them up until they were nearly 26 before they could get a position where they were offered insurance. For the third, he joined the military at 23. It seems to me that contract positions that do not provide benefits are much more common than you'd think and it can take a few years before they can slip into a non contract position.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 14:38:02 GMT -5
Yes. I’ve heard this, and we do have quite a drive for some specialists that take Medicaid. We are fortunate that we’ve not had need for serious treatment for the kids. DS is now 19 and off Medicaid (he’s on insurance provided by his school). DD is 17 soon, so only a couple more years for her. So what happens when they get out of college? This assumes that the college continues to provide health insurance, but once they leave it will be nil. At least if they were on your insurance, your children would have a few years in order to get a job where they are offered insurance. FWIW, I have 3 nieces and nephews that have gotten out of college and are employed in their field. For 2/3, it took them up until they were nearly 26 before they could get a position where they were offered insurance. For the third, he joined the military at 23. It seems to me that contract positions that do not provide benefits are much more common than you'd think and it can take a few years before they can slip into a non contract position. True. My son is ROTC, so he’s covered I think. If I go back to work full or make more money around the time DD finishes college, that may have to cover her as well.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 21, 2020 15:15:55 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure what "morality" issue you are having. Sounds more like you are 'humble bragging' and gloating about 'sticking it to the tax man' because you are managing your tax burden and taking advantage of benefits that are offered to "regular people" even though you are not "regular" (if you were to apply yourself - you COULD have earned more, saved more for your kid's college, spent time and effort navigating getting lowered costs from colleges for your kids... and on and on.) I do admire your idealism/choice billable hours to work fewer hours/or for less $$ so that you will have more time to spend with your family. Isn't America great? You were able to take advantage of that choice. And it made your life better. Don't forget about all the families that are working 40 hour plus weeks for their 50K income per year and who don't have as much time to spend with their family (or who are making difficult financial choices) so they and their kids can have some of the same benefits you and your kids are getting. I'd say that might be the only "morality" here - that you feel some gratitude for how well your life is going.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Sept 21, 2020 15:30:31 GMT -5
Is your son’s tuition so low because student loans are paying for tuition? Husband and I lived frugally and worked hard to earn enough to pay for kids and now good part of grandkids tuition so no student loans
Think maybe you’re in a gray area of morality, loafing along and reaping benefits designed to help really needy people - like the disabled, folks with low skills who can’t realistically earn more even though they work really hard
You seem to be taking advantage of the ‘forgotten man/woman’, those who struggle to work as much as possible, struggle to get advanced degrees, MDetc, and pay the taxes that go to help others and keep our country running and safe I resent your attitude and hoping your kids do better
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 15:58:06 GMT -5
I haven’t forgotten about others in different situations than myself. They are exactly the reason I feel guilty when my kid is on an income-based program. Providing financial details -on a forum about financial details- that leads me to these uneasy feelings is “humble-bragging and gloating?” Ok. It’s fine. I’ll go ahead and put Tiny and jerseygirl solidly down in the “I’m what’s wrong with America” camp. I appreciate your input.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 21, 2020 19:59:16 GMT -5
I haven’t forgotten about others in different situations than myself. They are exactly the reason I feel guilty when my kid is on an income-based program. Providing financial details -on a forum about financial details- that leads me to these uneasy feelings is “humble-bragging and gloating?” Ok. It’s fine. I’ll go ahead and put Tiny and jerseygirl solidly down in the “I’m what’s wrong with America” camp. I appreciate your input. I don't think you are what's wrong with America. I, personally, think you are very fortunate - you had the option to CHOOSE to do what you value - time with your family over income and hours worked - living on an typical for your area income. I'm ok with what you are doing. You aren't "cheating" anyone. It looks like you gave up some "wealth" to do it. Free school breakfast and lunches are the norm in my area (no matter what your income) and there are lots of ways to decrease the cost of college/university (all of my relatives and friends took advantage of any and all ways to lower the costs for their kids). I'm ambivalent about the healthcare thing (it's got an end date). You gave up above median income wealth to have more time with your family. Go ahead and think I 'tsk tsking' you if you like, I'm not.
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Clifford
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Post by Clifford on Sept 21, 2020 20:12:13 GMT -5
I haven’t forgotten about others in different situations than myself. They are exactly the reason I feel guilty when my kid is on an income-based program. Providing financial details -on a forum about financial details- that leads me to these uneasy feelings is “humble-bragging and gloating?” Ok. It’s fine. I’ll go ahead and put Tiny and jerseygirl solidly down in the “I’m what’s wrong with America” camp. I appreciate your input. I don't think you are what's wrong with America. I, personally, think you are very fortunate - you had the option to CHOOSE to do what you value - time with your family over income and hours worked - living on an typical for your area income. I'm ok with what you are doing. You aren't "cheating" anyone. It looks like you gave up some "wealth" to do it. Free school breakfast and lunches are the norm in my area (no matter what your income) and there are lots of ways to decrease the cost of college/university (all of my relatives and friends took advantage of any and all ways to lower the costs for their kids). I'm ambivalent about the healthcare thing (it's got an end date). You gave up above median income wealth to have more time with your family. Go ahead and think I 'tsk tsking' you if you like, I'm not. I agree that we are fortunate, and though we worked hard to get to this point, I try to remember to count my blessings regularly. My apologies for misreading your intent. All the best, C.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2020 10:13:09 GMT -5
I've had to intentionally keep my income low for more than a decade to qualify for decent health insurance. You are hardly alone.
If I were to earn more than 17K a year, I can purchase a health policy with a higher deductible than my year's income. How that's supposed to be "coverage" is a mystery to me and millions of other people.
Wealthy people have no problem hiding their assets and doing everything they can to avoid taxes. I refuse to feel guilty.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Sept 22, 2020 10:22:26 GMT -5
I've had to intentionally keep my income low for more than a decade to qualify for decent health insurance. You are hardly alone. If I were to earn more than 17K a year, I can purchase a health policy with a higher deductible than my year's income. How that's supposed to be "coverage" is a mystery to me and millions of other people. Wealthy people have no problem hiding their assets and doing everything they can to avoid taxes. I refuse to feel guilty. The ACA passage was no favor to most with as you note high premiums and even worse such high deductibles. It’s called ‘health care’ but not really it’s only a lame insurance policy. If politicians really want to help people the costs of health care need to decrease. Insurance companies and prescription middle companies are large components of these costs. But politicians are keeping insurance companies in business by telling folks to vote for them - they’ll save health care- Baloney they’re saving the insurance companies Sorry that you and others like you need to resort to this to get medical care.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 22, 2020 10:32:16 GMT -5
I've had to intentionally keep my income low for more than a decade to qualify for decent health insurance. You are hardly alone. If I were to earn more than 17K a year, I can purchase a health policy with a higher deductible than my year's income. How that's supposed to be "coverage" is a mystery to me and millions of other people. Wealthy people have no problem hiding their assets and doing everything they can to avoid taxes. I refuse to feel guilty. The ACA passage was no favor to most with as you note high premiums and even worse such high deductibles. It’s called ‘health care’ but not really it’s only a lame insurance policy. If politicians really want to help people the costs of health care need to decrease. Insurance companies and prescription middle companies are large components of these costs. But politicians are keeping insurance companies in business by telling folks to vote for them - they’ll save health care- Baloney they’re saving the insurance companies Sorry that you and others like you need to resort to this to get medical care. The ACA saved us somewhere between $7000-9000 over COBRA. The Medicaid expansion has helped many people, as well as getting rid of the pre-existing conditions loopholes for the insurance companies. The only problem with it is that it should have done more, not less. It's still a band-aid solution.
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