Sleepovers

[swamp]

OK, all you YM experienced parents, help me out here. 

DD is 12, she lives to have/go to sleep overs with her friends.  I'm good with that as long as I know the parents and are comfortable with them. 

We've run into a modern day problem.   Many of her friends are boys.  The rule is no boys at a sleepover (unless it's a boy who lives at the house like a brother).   She of course thinks DH and are are the most evil parents in the world for not allowing boys at sleepovers.    Whatever, kid, get over it. 

Now DD tells me that she is Bisexual, and her best friend "Laurie" is trangendered and now goes by "Larry."   So, since Laurie/Larry is trans, and she is bi, she should be able to have sleep overs with boys because Laurie/Larry is really a boy.  

I told her if she doesn't knock it off, there won't be any sleepovers because I'm not going to start asking sexual orientations of everyone at a sleepover. 

Now what? 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jul 15, 2020 12:42:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

OK, all you YM experienced parents, help me out here. 

DD is 12, she lives to have/go to sleep overs with her friends.  I'm good with that as long as I know the parents and are comfortable with them. 

We've run into a modern day problem.   Many of her friends are boys.  The rule is no boys at a sleepover (unless it's a boy who lives at the house like a brother).   She of course thinks DH and are are the most evil parents in the world for not allowing boys at sleepovers.    Whatever, kid, get over it. 

Now DD tells me that she is Bisexual, and her best friend "Laurie" is trangendered and now goes by "Larry."   So, since Laurie/Larry is trans, and she is bi, she should be able to have sleep overs with boys because Laurie/Larry is really a boy.  

I told her if she doesn't knock it off, there won't be any sleepovers because I'm not going to start asking sexual orientations of everyone at a sleepover. 

Now what? 

Now I think it dawns on your daughter is going to be a lawyer like you when she grows up.  

I would be no boys too because kids are stupid and nowadays that stupidity can follow them into their adult years and affect things like employment.   Till you're reaching an age where you can start to grasp the consequences of being stupid no co-ed sleep overs.   I can't control what other parents choose to do but I sure as heck don't need to follow them off the cliff.   Especially at 12.

If either kid wanted to pull the Bisexual/transgender card on me then I would say "Okay then no more sleepovers with girls or "Larry" either".    Your move.  I know too many kids in middle school who put on acts to get attention and that detracts from the kids who actually are and the difficulties they often go through particularly in middle and high school.  You are NOT going to use sexual orientation to try to manipulate me. 

It's another thing if she actually is bisexual or transgender but then again her bluff will be called and no sleepovers till she's at a point where I feel she understands the consequences of making stupid decisions.

Either way it would backfire in her face and hopefully teach her a lesson.  I'm the parent and at the end of the day MY vote is the deciding vote.

[swamp]

Larry's mom has confirmed that Larry really is trans, so that tosses another complication into it.  

[oped]

Meh. I can't be bothered to keep up with who is identifying as what gender and sleeping with what gender. Honestly. Its new normal.  We always had boys and girls stay over.  We never had problems.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jul 15, 2020 12:50:33 GMT -5 swamp said:

Larry's mom has confirmed that Larry really is trans, so that tosses another complication into it.  

Yeah that does doesn't it.  I can't think of how to discuss sleepovers without asking a lot of very personal questions and digging myself a rather large hole.

I suppose I would stand by that if she's bi and Larry is trans then no more sleepovers period in the name of being equal/fair across the board.   You made your case, I considered it and you lost.

[oped]

So, can you articulate your biggest concern? That's usually where I start.

[swamp]

sexual experimentation 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jul 15, 2020 12:58:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

sexual experimentation 

and you are hoping to squash it?

I don't have any answer here but is it wrong to experiment?

[oped]

The below is in a completely neutral tone, not intended to push one way or another, just to continue the dialogue.  ETA: In YOUR head... you don't have to answer here if you don't want obviously! 

So, I would ask 1) why does sexual experimentation concern you? Do you think kids shouldn't experiment with sex, or it just makes you feel icky, or something else? 
                       2) do you think sexual experimentation will not happen if there are no sleepovers? 
                       3) do you feel that if you said, doors stay open, or if you said, I don't feel comfortable with sexual experimentation under my roof so I'm going 
                           to have to ask you to respect that, that your kid would not abide by that? 

[Deleted]

I avoid by no sleepovers period. Pretty easy thing for me to enforce as neither kid has ever requested one. 😀

[thyme4change]

I feel for you. That is complicated.

I have a friend whose daughter had a close friend, sleepovers, hanging out, all the normal stuff. Then the admission that the two girls were dating / girlfriends. And my friend was thinking that she tucked them in together, and was that a problem?

My only compromise thought is if you have a common room that could be used for sleepovers. One without a door, and easily accessible and no real privacy. Then have communication with other parents and see if all of you are on the same page. Then you can have girls or boys - all of whom are now possible sexual partners.

[swamp]

Jul 15, 2020 13:00:52 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Jul 15, 2020 12:58:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

sexual experimentation 

and you are hoping to squash it?

I don't have any answer here but is it wrong to experiment?

I fully expect them to experiment, but I don't have to provide the opportunity. 

[swamp]

Jul 15, 2020 13:04:04 GMT -5 oped said:

The below is in a completely neutral tone, not intended to push one way or another, just to continue the dialogue.  ETA: In YOUR head... you don't have to answer here if you don't want obviously! 

So, I would ask 1) why does sexual experimentation concern you? Do you think kids shouldn't experiment with sex, or it just makes you feel icky, or something else? 
                       2) do you think sexual experimentation will not happen if there are no sleepovers? 
                       3) do you feel that if you said, doors stay open, or if you said, I don't feel comfortable with sexual experimentation under my roof so I'm going 
                           to have to ask you to respect that, that your kid would not abide by that? 

I have no idea if they would abide.  

I'm not totally against the co-ed sleepover if it's a group.   DH is ADAMANTLY opposed.    I will back him up on this even though I may  not fully agree.    

[oped]

Is your DH equally adamantly opposed to co ed sleepovers for your son?   (yes, i'm playing devil's advocate today...  

[swamp]

Jul 15, 2020 13:42:09 GMT -5 oped said:

Is your DH equally adamantly opposed to co ed sleepovers for your son?   (yes, i'm playing devil's advocate today...  

yes 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jul 15, 2020 13:39:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:00:52 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

and you are hoping to squash it?

I don't have any answer here but is it wrong to experiment?

I fully expect them to experiment, but I don't have to provide the opportunity. 

That's where I am at on the subject.   Personally and I am sure there are those that disagree, I think 12 years old is too young for me to condone and provide the opportunity to experiment.   I would rather give it a few years and many MANY discussions about birth control, cell phone pictures/internet etc before I open my doors to the possibility.   Doesn't mean I am delusional enough to think they won't find a way and sleepovers at other houses would be on a case by case basis.  It's just I don't feel I need to be forced to compromise my views on the subject due to peer pressure from my kid in my own house.  

Personally I've never been too keen on sleepovers to begin with.   Stories that came out later from friends of mine in middle and high school have made me think my parents had the right idea in regards to the topic.  No kid died or was socially stunted by not having a sleepover.

[oped]

Then you might have your answer. This means effectively no more sleep overs then?  As daughter could potentially experiment with anyone.  Is there any concern that imposing these kinds of limits might also impact her willingness to tell you things like this and discuss them with you? 

[giramomma]

So, one thing I've learned as a parent, is to not make blanket rules.

Mostly that stems from having kids 13 years apart, and you have to remember the blanket rules for f'ing ever. No one has got time for that.

Plus, my kids all have different needs. I mean, blanket rules work for things like "No gum until you are three because it's a choking hazard." But, really by the time they hit double digits in age, there's no way we can parent each kid the same.

We've moved to hearing each request individually. The kids make the ask...and DH will consider the request and provide an answer after we've feel we've reached a decision we feel good about.

If the kids badger us, they know the answer will then be no. But that's because they wouldn't allow us time to talk. The kids have no business pressuring us. We don't have to reward them pushing boundaries and being disrespectful. 

I think if you are worried about experimentation, then you have no choice but to make a blanket rule that says no sleepovers, period. 

How well do you know Larry's mom/family? If the family seems OK, I would consider offer to host a sleep over. With rules. When we do sleepovers, the kids never sleep in their rooms, rather public spaces (living room, family room). These are the only two rooms with tvs, too. That's their choice...our normal. Our normal is that I only sleep about 4-5 hours a night due to anxiety, work, etc.  So, I'd be fine working in the other public space, with head phones (but taking them off to listen to what's going on.. during said sleepover. 

One of my good friends in HS was gay. We'd snuggle a lot and hug each other. But there was absolutely nothing sexual about it. He didn't know he was gay, or at least he wasn't overt about it. We just never kissed or did anything. Even now, I'm thinking about it and I'm like ewww.

Also, I'm really straight, but if my college room mate would have propositioned me, I absolutely would have had a sexual encounter with her. There was a barrista, once, to, that maybe I would have had an encounter with.  Really. Just two very specific cases...but..it makes me think that if we are parenting on fluid issues, our responses need to be something that can be responsive to fluid issues. 

I know we have our own things, but at 12, I'd be more worried about drinking/drugs than I'd be about sexual experimentation.  But, that's because in my parts, 12/13 is when the drinking/drugs start when kids hang out in groups.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jul 15, 2020 13:46:12 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:39:07 GMT -5 swamp said:

I fully expect them to experiment, but I don't have to provide the opportunity. 

 I think 12 years old is too young for me to condone and provide the opportunity to experiment.  

I don't think anyone is in that camp, at least not here. 

If we assume a friends' sleepover is a potentially sexually charged event that needs to be eliminated for 12 year olds, what message does that send?

[swamp]

Larry has stayed over, and sleepovers are in the living room.  

Larry is a great kid.  

[swamp]

Jul 15, 2020 14:09:58 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:46:12 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

 I think 12 years old is too young for me to condone and provide the opportunity to experiment.  

I don't think anyone is in that camp, at least not here. 

If we assume a friends' sleepover is a potentially sexually charged event that needs to be eliminated for 12 year olds, what message does that send?

but at what point to they become sexually charged? 

I let Joe stay over when you were 12, but now that you're all 15, no?   

Parenting is hard. 

[oped]

We also roam a lot at night, and I'd generally sleep in a common room on a chair or couch. But mostly I just said, no sex, no drugs, no drinking at my house please... otherwise, come on in, make yourself comfortable and stay as long as you like.  (Then, now I'm still that way for parties, because who is sleeping anyway, but not for my kids regular 'sleepovers', which at this point contain real sex at least part of the time.)

My kids are both in college and there are still teens who stop by a few times a month... can we use the big bathroom to dye hair, can we come and swim, I need a place to crash for a few days...  I'm sure it will stop eventually, but its kind of nice. 

I liked being the place people hung out. I liked that the kids talked to us. Granted, daughter tells me things now I'd probably rather not hear, but its preferable to hiding it or not feeling she can talk to us. (wait till you work your way up to polyamorous relationships... or when you have one polyamorous and one, how was it termed this week... asexual genetic dead end...)  

Me getting that term right meant I asked son and he wanted context and so he went on for a bit... his thoughts are below, because they made me smile  

Son points out that this whole conversation is operating under the assumption that a state of platonic is not achievable, or not in fact mostly the default setting for most people, especially at that age. These days people are more likely to form platonic connection regardless of gender or orientation. Notions of self identification have no bearing on this generation, nor should they. His opinion is that these worries are baseless. These things of personal identification are comfort and preference and in no way implies sexual urges. People give kids a lot less credit than they deserve and kids can work these things out for themselves assuming you properly contextualize for them, and the worry would be more lack of maturity than sexual identification or experimentation. 


Me again. Personally, I'm a big believer in we own our own bodies. So to me, focusing on what I was comfortable with in my house was the way I wanted to term things, because it wasn't about me telling someone what they could or could not do with their body, but about the lines were I was comfortable, which is a respect thing.  

We also talked consent, sexual transmitted diseases, birth control, etc. etc. as well as the emotional aspects and toll of sex from about that age on I want to say? 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Jul 15, 2020 14:12:39 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 15, 2020 14:09:58 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I don't think anyone is in that camp, at least not here. 

If we assume a friends' sleepover is a potentially sexually charged event that needs to be eliminated for 12 year olds, what message does that send?

but at what point to they become sexually charged? 

I let Joe stay over when you were 12, but now that you're all 15, no?   

Parenting is hard. 

I sure don't know! 

Yes - it's difficult!

But - is Joe a friend? or something else? 

[swamp]

Jul 15, 2020 14:19:28 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Jul 15, 2020 14:12:39 GMT -5 swamp said:

but at what point to they become sexually charged? 

I let Joe stay over when you were 12, but now that you're all 15, no?   

Parenting is hard. 

I sure don't know! 

Yes - it's difficult!

But - is Joe a friend? or something else? 

Joe is a friend of my nieces, and consequently, a friend of DD.   DD has spent time at my brother's house, and has regular online chats with him and other guys from that area.  My brother brought him up with his kids for a day.    

This was a hypothetical because they weren't going to spend the night anyway, my brother had to be back home the next morning for an obligation at 9.    I don't think Joe's parents would let him stay overnight somewhere 2 hours from home with people they  have never met.  

But DD is still pushing it.   Even though it wasn't going to happen. 

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2020 13:46:12 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Personally I've never been too keen on sleepovers to begin with.   Stories that came out later from friends of mine in middle and high school have made me think my parents had the right idea in regards to the topic.  No kid died or was socially stunted by not having a sleepover.

Me either.  And after my life of growing up staying pretty much wherever/whenever, I would say I'd be more worried about the parents doing weird shit around or to the kids. I've certainly had some interesting experiences in that regard.    

I try to shelter as much as possible without being weird about it.  My oldest was gone all the time on overnights with school or scout sanctioned activities but as far as I know never just an overnight at a friend's house (I'm not 100% on that because he might have while with his dad).  Carrot is a different story.  I've lost the ability to shelter that one just by sending him to his dad's every other weekend!  There are kids and adults staying there all the time I don't know. 

[Tiny]

Jul 15, 2020 12:42:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

OK, all you YM experienced parents, help me out here. 

DD is 12, she lives to have/go to sleep overs with her friends.  I'm good with that as long as I know the parents and are comfortable with them. 

We've run into a modern day problem.   Many of her friends are boys.  The rule is no boys at a sleepover (unless it's a boy who lives at the house like a brother).   She of course thinks DH and are are the most evil parents in the world for not allowing boys at sleepovers.    Whatever, kid, get over it. 

Now DD tells me that she is Bisexual, and her best friend "Laurie" is trangendered and now goes by "Larry."   So, since Laurie/Larry is trans, and she is bi, she should be able to have sleep overs with boys because Laurie/Larry is really a boy.  

I told her if she doesn't knock it off, there won't be any sleepovers because I'm not going to start asking sexual orientations of everyone at a sleepover. 

Now what? 

I don't think those words (bisexual (sexuality) and transgendered (gender) ) mean what your kid thinks they mean (as she's arguing for a sleepover with someone she MIGHT be sexually attracted to - and generally "sleepovers" aren't about having sex)  maybe if you clear that up you'll be able to settle on the sleepover rules.     

Personally, I'd just end the sleepovers  - I imagine most of the other kids parents will be relieved.   Tell, the kid she will have a life time of "sleepovers" starting when she goes away to college.      

   

[busymom]

Welcome to the "mean mom" club.  We'll teach you the secret handshake later.  


Oh, the many joys of parenting.  It sounds like both you & your DH know what you're going to do.  Just do it.  With no apologies.


As my Dad used to say:  "My house, my rules.  Wait until you get your own house someday."  

[giramomma]

Jul 15, 2020 14:12:39 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 15, 2020 14:09:58 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I don't think anyone is in that camp, at least not here. 

If we assume a friends' sleepover is a potentially sexually charged event that needs to be eliminated for 12 year olds, what message does that send?

but at what point to they become sexually charged? 

I let Joe stay over when you were 12, but now that you're all 15, no?   

Parenting is hard. 

FWIW. We stress appropriateness. And appropriateness, is well, situational.

The fact that your daughter is pushing it..though. That would tick me off.

[oped]

I actually think daughter made a cogent argument about why opposite gender sleepovers are not an easy line, nor likely to solve the 'no sexual exploration' concern. That said, its likely to backfire when mom and dad say, you are right, so, no sleepovers from now on at all. 

[justme]

So these hard lines - no opposite sex based on heterosexual nature or then excluding same sex kids once they come out because now homosexual attraction could possibly be there - is how trans and non-hetero kids can get isolated and excluded.

If you don't let Larry sleepover now because he's a boy, but all his friends are mostly girls he's now excluded from a lot of friend bonding. And likely doesn't immediately have the corresponding friendships with those of the same gender (and then faces the still has girl parts question of being added to boys sleepovers). 


All my sleepovers as a kid with were girls so the opportunity wasn't there for me (being hetero and no desire to experiment the other way), but even if there were dudes there I wouldn't want to do anything with several other friends there. And if it's in a living room with wandering parents around there's not really a lot of places for them to hide either. But maybe I'm just a rather solid non-exhibitionist type? 


Not a parent, but I think, possibly, a line would be platonic guests only - no couples or facsimile couples. Though that's admittedly a harder line to draw as it would mostly rely on your kid telling you the truth/following that rule.