Immunity only lasts a few months?

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2020 8:13:10 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Jul 14, 2020 14:40:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Given how poorly your post was written, we have no choice but to use your previous posts to search for the true meaning.

If you want to prove to us you are different than we believe, start posting different things. And stop with the word-twisting games. It isn't clever.

He's "bringing his A game". Better bring yours if you wish to have a chance.

Jul 14, 2020 11:01:52 GMT -5 @x said:

(Snipped for brevity)

My response was just a little test. 

Still stuck on labeling what you project I am, are you ? 

H 2S

I love how everyone is "projecting" with you.

Aww, did someone learn a new term?

Yeah, you got me, I still read your posts once in a while and pick things up.    

Next term I'm going to start using is "A-Game".    

For "everyone" . (stop projecting) 


I love you bob, don't ever change. 

[Bob Ross]

Jul 15, 2020 11:57:17 GMT -5 @x said:

Yeah, you got me, I still read your posts once in a while and pick things up.    

Next term I'm going to start using is "A-Game".    

For "everyone" .

Glad I could help.

And as long as you're bringing it, see if you can come up with yet another form of "I know you are but what am I?"

I mean, since you've already got the whole figurative/literal thing down pat.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I was in the shower this morning and pondering the data that has been coming out here.  A little background for me was that very early in my career I was looking at secretory IgA responses in saliva, and how they were protective against mucosal disease.  Secretory IgA is the antibody that acts as a defender in mucosal tissues and you find it in saliva, breast milk, crevicular fluid (the fluid surrounding your teeth) and GI washes.  Some of the earlier testing I did was a springboard for looking for a vaccine for caries looking at secretory IgA as protective.  I later helped out in developing the testing for some of these, but by then I had moved to another institution and others were doing this work.  

I was wondering why no one looked for this, so did a little googling this morning.  I am really missing my medline access at this point, but I was able to come up with this paper.  As it is a July 2020 article, I'm going on the premise that they are more up to date on what's being done more than what's coming out of the popular press.  This is the article.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7245198/

And this comment is what I am finding incredibly disturbing....
There is a lack of systematic study on IgA production in COVID-19 patients. Reported serology tests focus on IgM, IgG and total immunoglobulins although IgA is playing an important role in mucosal immunity. It is in fact the most important immunoglobulin to fight infectious pathogen in respiratory system and digestive system at the point of pathogen entry. As an immune barrier, secretory IgA can neutralize SARS-CoV-2 before they reach and bind the epithelial cells (Fig. 1 ). The amount of RBD specific IgA in the respiratory mucosa may thus serve as an indicator of host immune response, which can be directly measured in the saliva and tears and makes it possible to use IgA detection as an early diagnosis marker.

So now I am wondering that if NONE of the tests look for even IgA (IgA comes in 2 forms, secretory IgA, which has a secretory component attached to it and is usually found in the fluids above, or IgA, which is found in the blood but not near as abundant as IgG), then why aren't they switching tracks?  As I posted earlier, IgG may not be worth squat.

At this point, ALL of our efforts in the vaccine development have been looking at IgG production, and we know that this data is really coming out pretty sketchy - just like a lot of the IgG data I found when I was looking at oral pathogens in serum, saliva was much more interesting.    I found that IgA was MUCH more important in looking at the course of disease.  There really does need to be someone looking at this as if it was an oral disease.  If you can increase defenses at the points of entry so that the virus can't even get a foothold into the body, then treating the disease is a less important.  Looking at infusing plasma may not work because maybe they need to be looking at ingesting breast milk from previous infections.  

Damn.....I wish I was working now, I may have a better platform than I currently do.  I think that they need to be looking at the data that is coming out from the vaccine development of caries.  

Sorry, I know that few people will understand this but hopefully someone who has a bit more pull than I do right now might be looking in this direction.  

[thyme4change]

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I was in the shower this morning and pondering the data that has been coming out here.  A little background for me was that very early in my career I was looking at secretory IgA responses in saliva, and how they were protective against mucosal disease.  Secretory IgA is the antibody that acts as a defender in mucosal tissues and you find it in saliva, breast milk, crevicular fluid (the fluid surrounding your teeth) and GI washes.  Some of the earlier testing I did was a springboard for looking for a vaccine for caries looking at secretory IgA as protective.  I later helped out in developing the testing for some of these, but by then I had moved to another institution and others were doing this work.  

I was wondering why no one looked for this, so did a little googling this morning.  I am really missing my medline access at this point, but I was able to come up with this paper.  As it is a July 2020 article, I'm going on the premise that they are more up to date on what's being done more than what's coming out of the popular press.  This is the article.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7245198/

And this comment is what I am finding incredibly disturbing....
There is a lack of systematic study on IgA production in COVID-19 patients. Reported serology tests focus on IgM, IgG and total immunoglobulins although IgA is playing an important role in mucosal immunity. It is in fact the most important immunoglobulin to fight infectious pathogen in respiratory system and digestive system at the point of pathogen entry. As an immune barrier, secretory IgA can neutralize SARS-CoV-2 before they reach and bind the epithelial cells (Fig. 1 ). The amount of RBD specific IgA in the respiratory mucosa may thus serve as an indicator of host immune response, which can be directly measured in the saliva and tears and makes it possible to use IgA detection as an early diagnosis marker.

So now I am wondering that if NONE of the tests look for even IgA (IgA comes in 2 forms, secretory IgA, which has a secretory component attached to it and is usually found in the fluids above, or IgA, which is found in the blood but not near as abundant as IgG), then why aren't they switching tracks?  As I posted earlier, IgG may not be worth squat.

At this point, ALL of our efforts in the vaccine development have been looking at IgG production, and we know that this data is really coming out pretty sketchy - just like a lot of the IgG data I found when I was looking at oral pathogens in serum, saliva was much more interesting.    I found that IgA was MUCH more important in looking at the course of disease.  There really does need to be someone looking at this as if it was an oral disease.  If you can increase defenses at the points of entry so that the virus can't even get a foothold into the body, then treating the disease is a less important.  Looking at infusing plasma may not work because maybe they need to be looking at ingesting breast milk from previous infections.  

Damn.....I wish I was working now, I may have a better platform than I currently do.  I think that they need to be looking at the data that is coming out from the vaccine development of caries.  

Sorry, I know that few people will understand this but hopefully someone who has a bit more pull than I do right now might be looking in this direction.  

I have been at parties where groups of people are speaking in languages I do not know (which is every language except English) and I feel the same way when I read this post. 🤣🤣

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I was in the shower this morning and pondering the data that has been coming out here.  A little background for me was that very early in my career I was looking at secretory IgA responses in saliva, and how they were protective against mucosal disease.  Secretory IgA is the antibody that acts as a defender in mucosal tissues and you find it in saliva, breast milk, crevicular fluid (the fluid surrounding your teeth) and GI washes.  Some of the earlier testing I did was a springboard for looking for a vaccine for caries looking at secretory IgA as protective.  I later helped out in developing the testing for some of these, but by then I had moved to another institution and others were doing this work.  

I was wondering why no one looked for this, so did a little googling this morning.  I am really missing my medline access at this point, but I was able to come up with this paper.  As it is a July 2020 article, I'm going on the premise that they are more up to date on what's being done more than what's coming out of the popular press.  This is the article.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7245198/

And this comment is what I am finding incredibly disturbing....
There is a lack of systematic study on IgA production in COVID-19 patients. Reported serology tests focus on IgM, IgG and total immunoglobulins although IgA is playing an important role in mucosal immunity. It is in fact the most important immunoglobulin to fight infectious pathogen in respiratory system and digestive system at the point of pathogen entry. As an immune barrier, secretory IgA can neutralize SARS-CoV-2 before they reach and bind the epithelial cells (Fig. 1 ). The amount of RBD specific IgA in the respiratory mucosa may thus serve as an indicator of host immune response, which can be directly measured in the saliva and tears and makes it possible to use IgA detection as an early diagnosis marker.

So now I am wondering that if NONE of the tests look for even IgA (IgA comes in 2 forms, secretory IgA, which has a secretory component attached to it and is usually found in the fluids above, or IgA, which is found in the blood but not near as abundant as IgG), then why aren't they switching tracks?  As I posted earlier, IgG may not be worth squat.

At this point, ALL of our efforts in the vaccine development have been looking at IgG production, and we know that this data is really coming out pretty sketchy - just like a lot of the IgG data I found when I was looking at oral pathogens in serum, saliva was much more interesting.    I found that IgA was MUCH more important in looking at the course of disease.  There really does need to be someone looking at this as if it was an oral disease.  If you can increase defenses at the points of entry so that the virus can't even get a foothold into the body, then treating the disease is a less important.  Looking at infusing plasma may not work because maybe they need to be looking at ingesting breast milk from previous infections.  

Damn.....I wish I was working now, I may have a better platform than I currently do.  I think that they need to be looking at the data that is coming out from the vaccine development of caries.  

Sorry, I know that few people will understand this but hopefully someone who has a bit more pull than I do right now might be looking in this direction.  

Most of our vaccines are based on developing IgG antibodies. There are some thoughts that oral vaccines may be more effective at developing immunity. Making better vaccines is important, as we can see know

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 15, 2020 20:18:23 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Sorry, I know that few people will understand this but hopefully someone who has a bit more pull than I do right now might be looking in this direction.  

I have been at parties where groups of people are speaking in languages I do not know (which is every language except English) and I feel the same way when I read this post. 🤣🤣

Sorry about this.  Back in the dark ages, when I was working, I could have discussions like this and have someone debate my points and poke holes in my ideas.  I know this is a Greek to most, and make other’s eyes glaze over.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 15, 2020 20:25:52 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Most of our vaccines are based on developing IgG antibodies. There are some thoughts that oral vaccines may be more effective at developing immunity. Making better vaccines is important, as we can see know

But with what has been shown now, why is no one looking at this differently?  They are wasting time, with everyone chasing IgG.  

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 15, 2020 20:44:22 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jul 15, 2020 20:25:52 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Most of our vaccines are based on developing IgG antibodies. There are some thoughts that oral vaccines may be more effective at developing immunity. Making better vaccines is important, as we can see know

But with what has been shown now, why is no one looking at this differently?  They are wasting time, with everyone chasing IgG.  

They are doing some things differently. The moderna vaccine is an rna vaccine. I have seen talk of trying anbb b oral vaccine, not sure how far along they are. In a crisis, the tried and true WSU of doing it is likely to be the first one to be proven effective and able to be mass produced.

[thyme4change]

Jul 15, 2020 20:41:44 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jul 15, 2020 20:18:23 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have been at parties where groups of people are speaking in languages I do not know (which is every language except English) and I feel the same way when I read this post. 🤣🤣

Sorry about this.  Back in the dark ages, when I was working, I could have discussions like this and have someone debate my points and poke holes in my ideas.  I know this is a Greek to most, and make other’s eyes glaze over.

Don't be sorry. I am so glad there are people who are deep in understanding of things I know nothing about. I know so little about so very many things. This world would crumble if what I knew was enough to understand everything. We wouldn't have electricity, running water, cars or anything medical beyond - water, sleep and ibuprofen. Yup, we would all be dead.

[anciana]

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I was in the shower this morning and pondering the data that has been coming out here.  A little background for me was that very early in my career I was looking at secretory IgA responses in saliva, and how they were protective against mucosal disease.  Secretory IgA is the antibody that acts as a defender in mucosal tissues and you find it in saliva, breast milk, crevicular fluid (the fluid surrounding your teeth) and GI washes.  Some of the earlier testing I did was a springboard for looking for a vaccine for caries looking at secretory IgA as protective.  I later helped out in developing the testing for some of these, but by then I had moved to another institution and others were doing this work.  

I was wondering why no one looked for this, so did a little googling this morning.  I am really missing my medline access at this point, but I was able to come up with this paper.  As it is a July 2020 article, I'm going on the premise that they are more up to date on what's being done more than what's coming out of the popular press.  This is the article.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7245198/

And this comment is what I am finding incredibly disturbing....
There is a lack of systematic study on IgA production in COVID-19 patients. Reported serology tests focus on IgM, IgG and total immunoglobulins although IgA is playing an important role in mucosal immunity. It is in fact the most important immunoglobulin to fight infectious pathogen in respiratory system and digestive system at the point of pathogen entry. As an immune barrier, secretory IgA can neutralize SARS-CoV-2 before they reach and bind the epithelial cells (Fig. 1 ). The amount of RBD specific IgA in the respiratory mucosa may thus serve as an indicator of host immune response, which can be directly measured in the saliva and tears and makes it possible to use IgA detection as an early diagnosis marker.

So now I am wondering that if NONE of the tests look for even IgA (IgA comes in 2 forms, secretory IgA, which has a secretory component attached to it and is usually found in the fluids above, or IgA, which is found in the blood but not near as abundant as IgG), then why aren't they switching tracks?  As I posted earlier, IgG may not be worth squat.

At this point, ALL of our efforts in the vaccine development have been looking at IgG production, and we know that this data is really coming out pretty sketchy - just like a lot of the IgG data I found when I was looking at oral pathogens in serum, saliva was much more interesting.    I found that IgA was MUCH more important in looking at the course of disease.  There really does need to be someone looking at this as if it was an oral disease.  If you can increase defenses at the points of entry so that the virus can't even get a foothold into the body, then treating the disease is a less important.  Looking at infusing plasma may not work because maybe they need to be looking at ingesting breast milk from previous infections.  

Damn.....I wish I was working now, I may have a better platform than I currently do.  I think that they need to be looking at the data that is coming out from the vaccine development of caries.  

Sorry, I know that few people will understand this but hopefully someone who has a bit more pull than I do right now might be looking in this direction.  

Just finished reading an article that lurkyloo mentioned in another thread about the T cell response:

Jul 16, 2020 6:35:51 GMT -6 lurkyloo said:

This is a nice summary of a new paper that looks at the T cell response, rather than just antibodies (which come from B cells and fade to very low but still protective levels as components of memory B cells not too many months after recovery). Also suggests that some people have natural immunity, likely due to unnoticed zoonotic coronavirus infection. The comments are also worth a read.



blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/07/15/new-data-on-t-cells-and-the-coronavirus



Summary: T cell responses can also protect you, can still protect original SARS patients even 17 years later, and aren’t as easy to measure as antibodies in the blood so everyone ignores them. Implication is that prior infection, hopefully also vaccination, will in fact prevent reinfection

Somewhere buried in the comments is the following:

Barry says:

15 July, 2020 at 7:11 pm

It is vastly cheaper and faster to measure IgG titers in plasma than to look for IgA on mucosa or for T-cells. But people are working on it. We’re not doomed to only measure circulating IgG if it turns out to be an invalid surrogate metric

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6161152/

Reply

Marko says:

15 July, 2020 at 7:36 pm

Has anyone looked for anti-COV2 IgA and IgG in saliva of infected/diseased patients ? It seems like the current plasma-based assays could be easily adapted for such studies and that the information gleaned would be very revealing.

Reply

Postdoc Panda says:

15 July, 2020 at 8:51 pm

The lab I’m a part of is attempting to do exactly that right now! While I’m excited about the progress we’ve made, I will say the following: Antibody abundance in general is much lower in saliva than serum. Anti-secretory IgA antibodies have proven much less robust in our hands than the anti-IgG or anti-serum IgA secondaries we’ve investigated. We’ve seen some pretty significant matrix effects with saliva, which due to ab abundance, we are running at lower dilutions than we can get away with in serum. Not to mention the striking inter-patient differences we’re seeing, when serum from the same patients looks similar. Our serum ELISAs run like clockwork, but the transition to saliva ELISAs from serum ELISAs is…..not straightforward. There are a lot of great groups working on this problem, so we’ll get it sorted out, but it turned out to be more significant than most of us though when we jumped into it a month or two ago.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 9:42:46 GMT -5 anciana said:

Jul 15, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Somewhere buried in the comments is the following:

Barry says:

15 July, 2020 at 7:11 pm

It is vastly cheaper and faster to measure IgG titers in plasma than to look for IgA on mucosa or for T-cells. But people are working on it. We’re not doomed to only measure circulating IgG if it turns out to be an invalid surrogate metric

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6161152/

Reply

Marko says:

15 July, 2020 at 7:36 pm

Has anyone looked for anti-COV2 IgA and IgG in saliva of infected/diseased patients ? It seems like the current plasma-based assays could be easily adapted for such studies and that the information gleaned would be very revealing.

Reply

Postdoc Panda says:

15 July, 2020 at 8:51 pm

The lab I’m a part of is attempting to do exactly that right now! While I’m excited about the progress we’ve made, I will say the following: Antibody abundance in general is much lower in saliva than serum. Anti-secretory IgA antibodies have proven much less robust in our hands than the anti-IgG or anti-serum IgA secondaries we’ve investigated. We’ve seen some pretty significant matrix effects with saliva, which due to ab abundance, we are running at lower dilutions than we can get away with in serum. Not to mention the striking inter-patient differences we’re seeing, when serum from the same patients looks similar. Our serum ELISAs run like clockwork, but the transition to saliva ELISAs from serum ELISAs is…..not straightforward. There are a lot of great groups working on this problem, so we’ll get it sorted out, but it turned out to be more significant than most of us though when we jumped into it a month or two ago.

I wonder how much they have delved into the oral/dental health literature?  We have been testing saliva successfully for secretory IgA antibody by ELISA since around 1980, and have published the tricks to it around that time.  I think the last time I was looking at saliva antibody in humans and published on it was around 2006ish.  I remember that study well, as we got some really interesting data from the African American population who smoked, and we had a horrible time those recruiting subjects.  We finally did publish on it, where AA broke out significantly as a group even as < 10% of our subjects.  I tried to recruit more to examine this, but had little luck.   

In fact, one of my first jobs was milking rats for secretory IgA.  Breast milk has the highest concentration of sIgA, so when we needed to purify it for standards and to make antibodies to sIgA for ELISAs we had to make it from scratch.  

[lurkyloo]

Darnit.  I really try to stay away from the politics board 
I’m not personally in contact with anyone who would be in a position to look at IgA response, but NIH is more or less literally throwing money at covid 19 research.  Mich, you could always answer the commenter with a couple of references?  That blog is really widely read so it’s not a bad way of getting your thinking out there.

[anciana]

Jul 16, 2020 15:16:04 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Darnit.  I really try to stay away from the politics board 
I’m not personally in contact with anyone who would be in a position to look at IgA response, but NIH is more or less literally throwing money at covid 19 research.  Mich, you could always answer the commenter with a couple of references?  That blog is really widely read so it’s not a bad way of getting your thinking out there.

I apologize for 'summoning' you here to this board as I try to stay away myself but I've gone wherever I can find information on CV19. I greatly appreciate you sharing the article you found and hope you will share anything else you find interesting 

[Spellbound454]

Well I can't say I know what I'm talking about...... but I did look it up

They are using IgG antibodies because they are associated with viral neutralising activity..... and they last longer than IgM or IgA

(Don't ask any questions because I won't know)

Moderna vaccine is looking promising...though they are talking about 2021

We also have a RNA vaccine in phase 2. Imperial College London... that would be next year also.

The first results from the Oxford vaccine are due out next week in the Lancet...From what I've heard its making antibodies and stimulating T cells.

They are vaccinating, then infecting healthy young volunteers in a final push.

The Chinese are vaccinating their military although they haven't done phase 3. They are either going to be super humans.... or dead because it isn't safe.

Plasma trials are undergoing studies and are still in progress.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 16, 2020 16:42:15 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Well I can't say I know what I'm talking about...... but I did look it up

They are using IgG antibodies because they are associated with viral neutralising activity..... and they last longer than IgM or IgA

(Don't ask any questions because I won't know)

Moderna vaccine is looking promising...though they are talking about 2021

We also have a RNA vaccine in phase 2. Imperial College London... that would be next year also.

The first results from the Oxford vaccine are due out next week in the Lancet...From what I've heard its making antibodies and stimulating T cells.

They are vaccinating, then infecting healthy young volunteers in a final push.

The Chinese are vaccinating their military although they haven't done phase 3. They are either going to be super humans.... or dead because it isn't safe.

Plasma trials are undergoing studies and are still in progress.

Walk knows quite a bit about this, but here goes.

The first antibody produced in response to an infection you have never seen before is IgM
After a certain amount of time, IgM production stops, and you produce IgG. These are the antibodies responsible for a durable immunity.
Ig A antibodies, also known as secretory IgA are present in secretions such as saliva, breast milk, semen and the like. They are responsible for preventing infections from gaining access to the body.

You also have a cellular immunity. These responses are governed by T cells, which are attack by the HIV virus, and results in a severe immunodeficiency. Your body has a whole host of different T cells, which are involved with helping the immune response, downregulating the immune response, and directly killing invaders and tumors. It is difficult to measure this immune response, but it is also protective, as we see in HIV, when it is dysfunctional.

Hope that helps

[Spellbound454]

Oh right...now it makes sense. Thanks.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 15:16:04 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Darnit.  I really try to stay away from the politics board 
I’m not personally in contact with anyone who would be in a position to look at IgA response, but NIH is more or less literally throwing money at covid 19 research.  Mich, you could always answer the commenter with a couple of references?  That blog is really widely read so it’s not a bad way of getting your thinking out there.

I already did respond to that post.  I told them where they need to look, and about the dates of publication.  I used to have a hard copy of the reference, but it is from around 1980, and I left all my files in the lab when I left. I forget which journal it was published in.  However, I suspect that they are censoring/moderating responses because even though my post went through, it hasn't shown up.  

We used to publish primarily in the dental and oral biology literature.  It usually does not come up in the top 10 hit parade of journals that people look at unless you are in the field.  They really need to go play in another sandbox.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 16:42:15 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Well I can't say I know what I'm talking about...... but I did look it up

They are using IgG antibodies because they are associated with viral neutralising activity..... and they last longer than IgM or IgA

(Don't ask any questions because I won't know)

Moderna vaccine is looking promising...though they are talking about 2021

We also have a RNA vaccine in phase 2. Imperial College London... that would be next year also.

The first results from the Oxford vaccine are due out next week in the Lancet...From what I've heard its making antibodies and stimulating T cells.

They are vaccinating, then infecting healthy young volunteers in a final push.

The Chinese are vaccinating their military although they haven't done phase 3. They are either going to be super humans.... or dead because it isn't safe.

Plasma trials are undergoing studies and are still in progress.

The COVID virus binds predominately to mucosal tissues, and these are protected mostly by IgA, not IgG.  The fluid you'll find these in is saliva, bronchial fluid, gastric lavage, crevicular fluid, tears and around the genital/urinary tract.  So looking at neutralizing IgG antibody in blood is really useless when you really need the antibody at the site where both the virus gains entrance into the body and the specific tissue it  attacks.  I suspect that this is why the plasma trials have not been a slam dunk like they usually are for cases where the convalescent antibodies are protective.  It is because you are not directing the bolus of the antibody at the source of attack.  

The T cells I am much less sure of as this was work I did at the very beginning and I remember staining for subsets of T cells that had been primed for a particular antigen.  Then I could purify out that subset of cells and see what percentage of cells had been primed by the antigen.  It is an incredibly laborious process, and I can't think of a way that this can really be done in bulk.  I do know that they are involved in the production of secretory IgA antibodies, and that there is communication between the cell sets in producing a protective effect.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 16:56:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 16, 2020 16:42:15 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Well I can't say I know what I'm talking about...... but I did look it up

They are using IgG antibodies because they are associated with viral neutralising activity..... and they last longer than IgM or IgA

(Don't ask any questions because I won't know)

Moderna vaccine is looking promising...though they are talking about 2021

We also have a RNA vaccine in phase 2. Imperial College London... that would be next year also.

The first results from the Oxford vaccine are due out next week in the Lancet...From what I've heard its making antibodies and stimulating T cells.

They are vaccinating, then infecting healthy young volunteers in a final push.

The Chinese are vaccinating their military although they haven't done phase 3. They are either going to be super humans.... or dead because it isn't safe.

Plasma trials are undergoing studies and are still in progress.

Walk knows quite a bit about this, but here goes.

The first antibody produced in response to an infection you have never seen before is IgM
After a certain amount of time, IgM production stops, and you produce IgG. These are the antibodies responsible for a durable immunity.
Ig A antibodies, also known as secretory IgA are present in secretions such as saliva, breast milk, semen and the like. They are responsible for preventing infections from gaining access to the body.

You also have a cellular immunity. These responses are governed by T cells, which are attack by the HIV virus, and results in a severe immunodeficiency. Your body has a whole host of different T cells, which are involved with helping the immune response, downregulating the immune response, and directly killing invaders and tumors. It is difficult to measure this immune response, but it is also protective, as we see in HIV, when it is dysfunctional.

Hope that helps

All of this, thanks for explaining this so well.

Also, you do have IgA that is found in the blood.  However, the secretory IgA is another, slightly different molecule in that it is 2 IgA molecules that are bound by a secretory component.  You do not find sIgA in the blood, only on/in mucosal tissues.  

Stimulating these molecules is done by stimulating the lymphoid tissues that are closest to the glands.  There are a whole host of lymphoid glands around the mouth/jaw.  You have lymphoid tissue called Peyer's patches in the intestines.  These are the sources of local production of protective antibody that is found in the areas that are protected by sIgA.

It is a whole branch of immunology that is a specialty because it does not work exactly like the rest.  

[lurkyloo]

Jul 16, 2020 17:17:37 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jul 16, 2020 15:16:04 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Darnit.  I really try to stay away from the politics board 
I’m not personally in contact with anyone who would be in a position to look at IgA response, but NIH is more or less literally throwing money at covid 19 research.  Mich, you could always answer the commenter with a couple of references?  That blog is really widely read so it’s not a bad way of getting your thinking out there.

I already did respond to that post.  I told them where they need to look, and about the dates of publication.  I used to have a hard copy of the reference, but it is from around 1980, and I left all my files in the lab when I left. I forget which journal it was published in.  However, I suspect that they are censoring responses because even though my post went through, it hasn't shown up.  

We used to publish primarily in the dental and oral biology literature.  It usually does not come up in the top 10 hit parade of journals that people look at unless you are in the field.  They really need to go play in another sandbox.

Ah, sorry!  It must not have cleared the blogs spam filter yet.     It’s a bit odd, you’d think they’d do a pubmed search or something that covers basically all journals, but sometimes keyword searching either misses what you’re looking for or is difficult to narrow down effectively.  Hopefully it’ll help them.

[lurkyloo]

Jul 16, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -5 anciana said:

Jul 16, 2020 15:16:04 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Darnit.  I really try to stay away from the politics board 
I’m not personally in contact with anyone who would be in a position to look at IgA response, but NIH is more or less literally throwing money at covid 19 research.  Mich, you could always answer the commenter with a couple of references?  That blog is really widely read so it’s not a bad way of getting your thinking out there.

I apologize for 'summoning' you here to this board as I try to stay away myself but I've gone wherever I can find information on CV19. I greatly appreciate you sharing the article you found and hope you will share anything else you find interesting 

Delighted you found it worthwhile!  The same blog has a number of posts explaining various aspects of treatment strategies for the epidemic, including semi regular updates on the statuses (stati?) of the various vaccine candidates and explaining their mechanisms of action and pros and cons of each.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 17:47:35 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Jul 16, 2020 17:17:37 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I already did respond to that post.  I told them where they need to look, and about the dates of publication.  I used to have a hard copy of the reference, but it is from around 1980, and I left all my files in the lab when I left. I forget which journal it was published in.  However, I suspect that they are censoring responses because even though my post went through, it hasn't shown up.  

We used to publish primarily in the dental and oral biology literature.  It usually does not come up in the top 10 hit parade of journals that people look at unless you are in the field.  They really need to go play in another sandbox.

Ah, sorry!  It must not have cleared the blogs spam filter yet.     It’s a bit odd, you’d think they’d do a pubmed search or something that covers basically all journals, but sometimes keyword searching either misses what you’re looking for or is difficult to narrow down effectively.  Hopefully it’ll help them.

Searches do not necessarily come up with the dental literature unless you have a specific term looking at it.  When I did these searches, it was usually a name of people in the group that was doing the work, which would trigger the journals that much of this data was in.  But these journals are not going to be the first on the list - and I doubt that many will delve that deeply into the literature.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 17:56:34 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Jul 16, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -5 anciana said:

I apologize for 'summoning' you here to this board as I try to stay away myself but I've gone wherever I can find information on CV19. I greatly appreciate you sharing the article you found and hope you will share anything else you find interesting 

Delighted you found it worthwhile!  The same blog has a number of posts explaining various aspects of treatment strategies for the epidemic, including semi regular updates on the statuses (stati?) of the various vaccine candidates and explaining their mechanisms of action and pros and cons of each.  

I read quite a bit in the site, but all that it did was make me realize how much I lost.     I really did like what I used to do, and wish that Murphy hadn't smiled on me quite like he did.

[lurkyloo]

Jul 16, 2020 18:05:11 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Jul 16, 2020 17:56:34 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Delighted you found it worthwhile!  The same blog has a number of posts explaining various aspects of treatment strategies for the epidemic, including semi regular updates on the statuses (stati?) of the various vaccine candidates and explaining their mechanisms of action and pros and cons of each.  

I read quite a bit in the site, but all that it did was make me realize how much I lost.     I really did like what I used to do, and wish that Murphy hadn't smiled on me quite like he did.

I hear you.  There have been any number of times where it would have made all kinds of sense on a practical level to give up my career and SAH, but it never made sense on a personal level.

Would it be worth reaching out to any of the PIs at local universities to see if they could use your expertise on a consulting basis?

Also, ignore this if it would make things worse but aacr made registration free for their national meeting-which is over now but all the content is accessible, some through the end of July, some through the end of september.  There’s a lot of fascinating stuff.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 16, 2020 20:58:56 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

Jul 16, 2020 18:05:11 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I read quite a bit in the site, but all that it did was make me realize how much I lost.     I really did like what I used to do, and wish that Murphy hadn't smiled on me quite like he did.

I hear you.  There have been any number of times where it would have made all kinds of sense on a practical level to give up my career and SAH, but it never made sense on a personal level.

Would it be worth reaching out to any of the PIs at local universities to see if they could use your expertise on a consulting basis?

Also, ignore this if it would make things worse but aacr made registration free for their national meeting-which is over now but all the content is accessible, some through the end of July, some through the end of september.  There’s a lot of fascinating stuff.

Locally, there is nothing, I would have to go to Seattle.  And TBH, getting through a huge medical complex would be very difficult physically.  I really do try to avoid this madness.  

My old PI has even stepped back and is no longer where he was.  Ironically enough, someone he hired 25 years ago to run our industrial studies is now his boss!  

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2020 12:39:12 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Jul 15, 2020 11:57:17 GMT -5 @x said:

Yeah, you got me, I still read your posts once in a while and pick things up.    

Next term I'm going to start using is "A-Game".    

For "everyone" .

"And as long as you're bringing it

I mean, since you've already got"

(Snipped for brevity)


You didn't bring your A-Game today.

It's all about me ! 

I'm a celebrity !  

[Bob Ross]

Jul 17, 2020 11:57:00 GMT -5 @x said:

Jul 15, 2020 12:39:12 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

"And as long as you're bringing it

I mean, since you've already got"

(Snipped for brevity)


You didn't bring your A-Game today.

It's all about me ! 

I'm a celebrity !  

Yes you are!

A big ole' celebrity!

Now I know another reason why you love Trump. You share some common qualities. 😉

[mmhmm]

Jul 17, 2020 11:57:00 GMT -5 @x said:

Jul 15, 2020 12:39:12 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

"And as long as you're bringing it

I mean, since you've already got"

(Snipped for brevity)


You didn't bring your A-Game today.

It's all about me ! 

I'm a celebrity !  

 @x and Bob Ross, please take your little spat off the boards. Others just aren't that interested.

mmhmm, Politics Moderator

[Deleted]

Jul 17, 2020 12:41:33 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jul 17, 2020 11:57:00 GMT -5 @x said:

(Snipped for brevity)


You didn't bring your A-Game today.

It's all about me ! 

I'm a celebrity !  

 @x and Bob Ross , please take your little spat off the boards. Others just aren't that interested.

mmhmm, Politics Moderator

It's a spat ? 

I thought he was funnin. 

I will stop, it doesn't mean anything to me other than a little socializing.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 17, 2020 11:57:00 GMT -5 @x said:

Jul 15, 2020 12:39:12 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

"And as long as you're bringing it

I mean, since you've already got"

(Snipped for brevity)


You didn't bring your A-Game today.

It's all about me ! 

I'm a celebrity !  

this used to be one of my favourite replies.  haven't used it lately.

"I appreciate your obsessive interest in me.  it's very flattering"