teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 11, 2020 19:31:22 GMT -5
by voting on it in November. Interesting thread on Twitter: link
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jul 11, 2020 19:34:11 GMT -5
This administration has shown me that either citizens of the US have a lower IQ level than I thought, OR, they are easily manipulated. I'm not happy with either scenario.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 11, 2020 19:36:04 GMT -5
Maybe we truly are a failed state, we are on our downward slide as all previous empires have done, and we will shatter into multiple countries. Then we may all be sorry when China is the dominant world power. By the time we realized this reality, it will be too late. We may be too selfish to sacrifice the way we need to to solve this crisis. If that is the case, the USSR just needed to hang on a little longer, as they thought this would happen
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 11, 2020 20:11:32 GMT -5
by voting on it in November. Interesting thread on Twitter: link Its interesting although I don't fully agree with the premise. I didn't log into Twitter. Does the author have any solutions in mind? The pandemic was coming no matter who was President. If we get a vaccine it will not because the President or his/her staff created one. Could better leadership have limited US deaths? Certainly. Is bad fractured planning due to politics making it worse? Of course. I really wonder then what she's proposing. Over throwing the federal government? Something else? Because any sane person who follows politics knows we are not going to craft legislation to abolish the electoral college and get it passed before November.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 11, 2020 20:25:30 GMT -5
No real solutions, just thought provoking questions. I don't think you need to login to Twitter to read the thread. The original link is to a thread rollup of her 5 tweets. Here is a link to the full thread for other's responses.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jul 12, 2020 1:01:57 GMT -5
This administration has shown me that either citizens of the US have a lower IQ level than I thought, OR, they are easily manipulated. I'm not happy with either scenario. What makes you think this is an either/or situation? You may be entirely too optimistic
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 12, 2020 9:34:27 GMT -5
No real solutions, just thought provoking questions. I don't think you need to login to Twitter to read the thread. The original link is to a thread rollup of her 5 tweets. Here is a link to the full thread for other's responses. I don't find them thought provoking because its obvious to anyone who has studied Trump at all, is nothing short of him getting a bad case of Covid that could kill him is going to change his mind on how he handles the coronavirus. He is the elite the RW talking heads thought they were warning us about. He's America's abuser. He's President because he wants unconditional praise and likes. Like an wife abuser he really does not care if he hurts you, steals from you or kills you as long as he gets what he wants. So the main solutions are peaceful overthrow through the election or the other kind.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 12, 2020 10:00:51 GMT -5
This administration has shown me that either citizens of the US have a lower IQ level than I thought, OR, they are easily manipulated. I'm not happy with either scenario. I think there is a third group - like my MIL and SIL - so convinced the 'liberal' media is lying to them, they reuse to get any news from any source other than Rush Limbaugh or Fox talking heads. They aren't stupid when they say things like 'Trump has done a fabulous job handling this virus' - they are ignorant. They haven't seen the graphs showing how European countries have pushed the Covid infection rate down to a low rate and have kept it there, while the US has a slight drop, leveled off, and have now begun to race upwards again. I call these the 'willfully ignorant' - they narrow their view of the world to a very narrow slit and refuse to listen to anything from any other source. And they may get Trump re-elected.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 12, 2020 10:10:22 GMT -5
No real solutions, just thought provoking questions. I don't think you need to login to Twitter to read the thread. The original link is to a thread rollup of her 5 tweets. Here is a link to the full thread for other's responses. I don't find them thought provoking because its obvious to anyone who has studied Trump at all, is nothing short of him getting a bad case of Covid that could kill him is going to change his mind on how he handles the coronavirus. He is the elite the RW talking heads thought they were warning us about. He's America's abuser. He's President because he wants unconditional praise and likes. Like an wife abuser he really does not care if he hurts you, steals from you or kills you as long as he gets what he wants. So the main solutions are peaceful overthrow through the election or the other kind. Ignore Trump. He's not the subject here. The question is about the American people, and looking to leadership (in general) for the answers. Our reliance on leadership to solve this FOR us. When leadership fails, especially this badly, how long do we WAIT for new leadership to step in, step up, with a solution? Why do we continue to think within our (broken) political system, as if that's the ONLY way things can be done here? Why do we wait to be LED to a solution, instead of collectively working toward a solution as a people?
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oped
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Post by oped on Jul 12, 2020 10:11:01 GMT -5
I am surrounded by the willfully ignorant.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jul 12, 2020 10:12:47 GMT -5
How can I solve a pandemic? Its not within an individual's wheelhouse. I can isolate. I can protect my family the best I can. I can minimize my own risk. I can wait it out. But Leadership is Necessary to solve a pandemic.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 10:22:40 GMT -5
I don't find them thought provoking because its obvious to anyone who has studied Trump at all, is nothing short of him getting a bad case of Covid that could kill him is going to change his mind on how he handles the coronavirus. He is the elite the RW talking heads thought they were warning us about. He's America's abuser. He's President because he wants unconditional praise and likes. Like an wife abuser he really does not care if he hurts you, steals from you or kills you as long as he gets what he wants. So the main solutions are peaceful overthrow through the election or the other kind. Ignore Trump. He's not the subject here. The question is about the American people, and looking to leadership (in general) for the answers. Our reliance on leadership to solve this FOR us. When leadership fails, especially this badly, how long do we WAIT for new leadership to step in, step up, with a solution? Why do we continue to think within our (broken) political system, as if that's the ONLY way things can be done here? Why do we wait to be LED to a solution, instead of collectively working toward a solution as a people? If "I" or "we" are responsible for solving it, then "I" or "we" are responsible if it isn't solved. If "they" are responsible for solving it, then "they" are to blame for not solving it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 10:32:15 GMT -5
How can I solve a pandemic? Its not within an individual's wheelhouse. I can isolate. I can protect my family the best I can. I can minimize my own risk. I can wait it out. But Leadership is Necessary to solve a pandemic. If people with expertise say that wearing a mask, social distancing, and excellent hand sanitation are good ways to deal with the pandemic and each individual took it upon themselves to follow that advice, then it would not be Necessary to have a Leader say you should follow this advice.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 12, 2020 10:33:49 GMT -5
How can I solve a pandemic? Its not within an individual's wheelhouse. I can isolate. I can protect my family the best I can. I can minimize my own risk. I can wait it out. But Leadership is Necessary to solve a pandemic. Individually, we can't solve a pandemic. But more individuals doing the right things (like isolating, minimizing risk, etc) gets us closer to solving it. It would seem to be in everyone's best interest, right? Why aren't more individuals willing to do that, though? What is a higher priority to them, than survival? I agree that leadership is necessary at some level, to organize supplies, coordinate priorities, etc. In our current situation, which level(s) of leadership do we look to? World, country, region, state, county, town, village, neighborhood? Instead of coordinating and cooperating (positive activities), some of them are squabbling and competing (negative activities). Why, in a time sensitive emergency, are we willing to leave counterproductive leaders in leadership roles until an appointed time for orderly change of leadership, months from now? Why are we (the collective we) not interested in learning anymore? Shouldn't we want to learn whatever new knowledge has been gained elsewhere, on how to beat this NEW threat, instead of insisting we already know best?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 12, 2020 10:52:23 GMT -5
America has always had a strong anti-intellectualism. It has been magnified now with the internet, since too many people believe you can become an expert just by looking things up on the net. Add in the easy ability to find information that supports your position, instead of looking with an open mind, leads to hardening of those positions. Fundamentalist religions make it even worse. So we find ourselves with a group of people on both extremes of the spectrum that have unshakable ideas, and our political system no longer favors compromise. In the absence of responsible leadership, those who need to be convinced on a certain course, refuse to budge. Hence, we are in the situation we are in.
Perfect example are anti-vaxxers. You have people on both ends of the political spectrum who refuse to listen to any sort of science, and the more you try to convince them, they harder they dig in. Unless those of us in the middle(regardless of if you are on the right or left), need to come together to overcome it. But we have too many elected officials who pander to their beliefs
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oped
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Post by oped on Jul 12, 2020 10:54:03 GMT -5
How can I solve a pandemic? Its not within an individual's wheelhouse. I can isolate. I can protect my family the best I can. I can minimize my own risk. I can wait it out. But Leadership is Necessary to solve a pandemic. If people with expertise say that wearing a mask, social distancing, and excellent hand sanitation are good ways to deal with the pandemic and each individual took it upon themselves to follow that advice, then it would not be Necessary to have a Leader say you should follow this advice. First... expertise saying to do this IS leadership. Second... IF is carrying a lot of weight there. People are decidedly NO taking it upon themselves to follow that advice, and I can do nothing to stop them.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jul 12, 2020 10:57:34 GMT -5
I'm working on a course. I started it last year at a local co op, teaching logical fallacy using commercials, and I'd like to expand it to a year long exploration of bias and motivation and how to read studies and statistics and articles and assess sources and delineate fact from opinion and judge conclusions.
Really, the inability to assess information and apply it judiciously is going to be our downfall.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 12, 2020 11:02:54 GMT -5
How can I solve a pandemic? Its not within an individual's wheelhouse. I can isolate. I can protect my family the best I can. I can minimize my own risk. I can wait it out. But Leadership is Necessary to solve a pandemic. Individually, we can't solve a pandemic. But more individuals doing the right things (like isolating, minimizing risk, etc) gets us closer to solving it. It would seem to be in everyone's best interest, right? Why aren't more individuals willing to do that, though? What is a higher priority to them, than survival? I agree that leadership is necessary at some level, to organize supplies, coordinate priorities, etc. In our current situation, which level(s) of leadership do we look to? World, country, region, state, county, town, village, neighborhood? Instead of coordinating and cooperating (positive activities), some of them are squabbling and competing (negative activities). Why, in a time sensitive emergency, are we willing to leave counterproductive leaders in leadership roles until an appointed time for orderly change of leadership, months from now? Why are we (the collective we) not interested in learning anymore? Shouldn't we want to learn whatever new knowledge has been gained elsewhere, on how to beat this NEW threat, instead of insisting we already know best? Early on in our country people split between keeping the economy going or defeating the virus. Experts and people in power gave conflicting advice depending on which goal they felt was most important - this caused a lot of confusion. I have some relatives on my Facebook feed who are certain that they are right (and keep posting what they consider to be 'proof') that masks are not only useful but dangerous to use. They also say they won't take a vaccine when one is available, because they have 'proof' that it will be dangerous. So they believe they are learning, but they are studying a non-science based curriculum.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 12, 2020 11:13:49 GMT -5
Individually, we can't solve a pandemic. But more individuals doing the right things (like isolating, minimizing risk, etc) gets us closer to solving it. It would seem to be in everyone's best interest, right? Why aren't more individuals willing to do that, though? What is a higher priority to them, than survival? I agree that leadership is necessary at some level, to organize supplies, coordinate priorities, etc. In our current situation, which level(s) of leadership do we look to? World, country, region, state, county, town, village, neighborhood? Instead of coordinating and cooperating (positive activities), some of them are squabbling and competing (negative activities). Why, in a time sensitive emergency, are we willing to leave counterproductive leaders in leadership roles until an appointed time for orderly change of leadership, months from now? Why are we (the collective we) not interested in learning anymore? Shouldn't we want to learn whatever new knowledge has been gained elsewhere, on how to beat this NEW threat, instead of insisting we already know best? Early on in our country people split between keeping the economy going or defeating the virus. Experts and people in power gave conflicting advice depending on which goal they felt was most important - this caused a lot of confusion. I have some relatives on my Facebook feed who are certain that they are right (and keep posting what they consider to be 'proof') that masks are not only useful but dangerous to use. They also say they won't take a vaccine when one is available, because they have 'proof' that it will be dangerous. So they believe they are learning, but they are studying a non-science based curriculum. And people can now easily find "facts" to support their position, and are unwilling to be skeptical and think critically. This is why it is incumbent on the people that they follow, look up ti, are on their side, whatever to be responsible and do the right thing, even if it is unpopular. Instead, we have demigods and morally corrupt people leading us, who prefer, division, and being re-elected to be responsible. And THAT is our fault for falling for this narrative and electing these terrible hunan beings.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 11:15:04 GMT -5
If people with expertise say that wearing a mask, social distancing, and excellent hand sanitation are good ways to deal with the pandemic and each individual took it upon themselves to follow that advice, then it would not be Necessary to have a Leader say you should follow this advice. First... expertise saying to do this IS leadership. Second... IF is carrying a lot of weight there. People are decidedly NO taking it upon themselves to follow that advice, and I can do nothing to stop them. Yes, if expertise says do it: “I never made myself out to be the end-all,” (Fauci) said. “I’m a scientist, a physician, and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence.” link Advising is not leading. Leading requires following. A Leader must have followers. Collaboration is a different model for problem solving.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jul 12, 2020 11:16:45 GMT -5
I would argue that individuals ARE leading, they are being drowned out by others so you don't see or hear them. Here are some examples. A coworker of mine started taking this really seriously in Jan. He purchased reusable masks for everyone in the group (10 people) and wore his continually outside his cube. Before the state shut down in March, all of us were wearing masks on our own wills due to his example. Many companies, including facebook, have employees working from home still. I have run across at least 4 news stories about people who thought that Covid was a joke, ignored the precautions, got the virus, and wanted to warn others. There have probably been hundreds more, but I have ignored them. Like a school of fish, the Americans who are ignoring precautions now will slowly turn around once they are personally impacted by another... whether it be to a death, illness, or peer pressure.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 12, 2020 11:20:06 GMT -5
I'm working on a course. I started it last year at a local co op, teaching logical fallacy using commercials, and I'd like to expand it to a year long exploration of bias and motivation and how to read studies and statistics and articles and assess sources and delineate fact from opinion and judge conclusions. Really, the inability to assess information and apply it judiciously is going to be our downfall. I've read about similar courses in Scandinavian countries, not just in schools, but for all ages, especially older adults. IIRC, Norway was using it to counteract Russian advertising/propaganda on their population.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 11:21:28 GMT -5
... Like a school of fish, the Americans who are ignoring precautions now will slowly turn around once they are personally impacted ... A school of fish do not change direction slowly nor when impacted individually.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jul 12, 2020 11:27:30 GMT -5
First... expertise saying to do this IS leadership. Second... IF is carrying a lot of weight there. People are decidedly NO taking it upon themselves to follow that advice, and I can do nothing to stop them. Yes, if expertise says do it: “I never made myself out to be the end-all,” (Fauci) said. “I’m a scientist, a physician, and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence.” link Advising is not leading. Leading requires following. A Leader must have followers. Collaboration is a different model for problem solving. Your two statements feel contradictory.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jul 12, 2020 11:27:34 GMT -5
... Like a school of fish, the Americans who are ignoring precautions now will slowly turn around once they are personally impacted ... A school of fish do not change direction slowly nor when impacted individually. You know what I mean. My main discussion point was on leadership of individuals... any comment on that?
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jul 12, 2020 11:30:15 GMT -5
Fauci is leading as much as he can. If he was fired, he would have no influence.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 11:58:49 GMT -5
A school of fish do not change direction slowly nor when impacted individually. You know what I mean. My main discussion point was on leadership of individuals... any comment on that? I don't know what you meant by what I quoted. On the point of leadership by individuals, I assume you mean individuals without some official title nor sanctioned authority who take it upon themselves to act. I think they are great examples to toss out there in regards to the argument in the OP that Americans are looking to sanctioned authority to solve the pandemic.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 12:03:59 GMT -5
Fauci is leading as much as he can. If he was fired, he would have no influence. And I would say Fauci is offering advise to everyone in a very careful manner. Personally, I think it is great advise and I am working to follow, not him, but the advice he offers.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 12, 2020 12:44:58 GMT -5
Yes, if expertise says do it: “I never made myself out to be the end-all,” (Fauci) said. “I’m a scientist, a physician, and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence.” link Advising is not leading. Leading requires following. A Leader must have followers. Collaboration is a different model for problem solving. Your two statements feel contradictory. Okay, not positive about what you are feeling but will see if I can change it. There will be gatherings of families (blood related or other) on Labor Day weekend. Food will be brought to solve the problem of people being hungry. One way to set the menu is to have one person assign items that each sub group will provide . A second way to set the menu would be for people to start announcing what they will bring based on their individual factors. As the list groups, some people will see potential "gaps" in the offerings and announce they will fill them. And quite likely there will be a person, probably a younger single guy , who asks what they should bring. Those with more expertise attending such events will offer a suggestion or two. With the pandemic, it would be wonderful if we could all bring to the table that which we can provide. For most of us, it will be just a willingness to pay attention and follow advise. Dr Fauci brings a very special dish. My view is that our President should be providing the table.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 12, 2020 13:14:04 GMT -5
Fauci is leading as much as he can. If he was fired, he would have no influence. Actually, if he was fired he would have far more influence. Right now, he is in a conundrum. Does he maintain his job of being the head of the NIAID with immediate access to all info coming in, but be hamstrung by the president in allowing him to provide this information, or does he say F this and go on as many talk shows and news reports? He gets fired, but at this point it actually might give him more leverage with the public if he was fired. However, losing access to information is a very hard penalty. Fauci is well known enough by the scientific/medical community, and has been since the 1980s. His standing is such that he can walk into ANY place in the world and write his own ticket if he so desires. His influence is tremendous, just on his reputation.
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