EU may ban Americans

[Gardening Grandma]

E.U. May Bar American Travelers as It Reopens Borders, Citing Failures on Virus

NYT
European Union officials are racing to agree on who can visit the bloc as of July 1 based on how countries of origin are faring with new coronavirus cases. Americans, so far, are excluded, according to draft lists seen by The New York Times.

That prospect, which would lump American visitors in with Russians and Brazilians as unwelcome, is a stinging blow to American prestige in the world and a repudiation of President Trump’s handling of the virus in the United States, which has more than 2.3 million cases and upward of 120,000 deaths, more than any other country.

[justme]

Further down it mentions part of the reasoning why is also that we have not yet stopped the ban on Europeans from coming here. Which I wouldn't blame them for "retaliating". 

It is making me sad though. I have 5 weeks of vacation to use by May. My family is talking about a week around Thanksgiving and I currently have a cruise in Feb. Which would leave me with 3 weeks to use and I was really hoping to use it for a longer vacation that I normally couldn't do without using up all my vacation time. But if Europe is out Australia and New Zealand will probably be out and Hawaii would probably be in the list. 

[pulmonarymd]

Do you blame them. They appear to have some semblance of control of the virus, and by allowing Americans, they are just asking for trouble. Sad situation, but we have only ourselves to blame. Will be fun to see Trump's reaction. On a side note, I wouldn't plan to be able to go to Hawii anytime soon, and vacationing anywhere in the US may be tricky for some time as well. The dreaded staycation may be the new fad

[thyme4change]

You don't want to let a bunch of sick people from a primitive country with shitty healthcare into your country. They will just steal all your affordable resources, and they won't care about the citizens at all.

[kadee79]

And I hope  that means that none of the DT family can visit any of his foreign properties too!

[Spellbound454]

We are going to look at some airbridges in a month or so.......... not yet because we have too much virus

but it will only be a few individual Countries with the same infection rate as us.(nothing personal)

Some Countries in...S America, South Asia haven't yet peaked....and World wide the virus rate is growing.

[Gardening Grandma]

What's an airbridge?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2020 18:32:49 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

What's an airbridge?

Airplane? A bridge via air from North America to Europe?

[Gardening Grandma]

Jun 23, 2020 19:22:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2020 18:32:49 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

What's an airbridge?

Airplane? A bridge via air from North America to Europe?

OK
An enclosed space shared with strangers, any one who might be unknowingly spreading a lethal virus for which there is no vaccine and nor cure.
Staying home for the forseeable furure

[Spellbound454]

"Airbridge" is a new word that no-one had heard of before the pandemic.

Its a reciprocal arrange between two Countries............ where people can visit by plane.

Obviously.... both Countries need to have the same amount of  low virus.

[Tennesseer]

Population of European Union countries is 446 million.  Population of the U.S. is 328 million.

Chart shows new Corona-19 cases between March 1 and June 23.





The Graphic Truth: Two different pandemics - EU vs US

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 24, 2020 17:50:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Population of European Union countries is 446 million.  Population of the U.S. is 328 million.

Chart shows new Corona-19 cases between March 1 and June 23.

And people want to call this a hoax. Wonderful leadership and response here. USA!USA!USA!

[justme]

It'll be interesting to see how Europe goes as it opens back up. I believe practically all of them were closed until sometime in June. Intrigued to see how their numbers are looking in July once they've had a month out. 

[pulmonarymd]

Their numbers will do up, but they are starting from a much better baseline than we were when we reopened. The hope is they pushed it down enough that they can have it smolder in the background.

We, on the other hand have an increasing epidemic, and we have no interest in doing what it takes to tamp it down. The more horrifying question is how bad it needs to get here before we will do what needs to be done. ICU beds in Houston are now 97% full. They are going to have to cut back elective surgery and create new ICU beds. And they still have not increased restrictions

[justme]

Oh, we undoubtedly opened up too early after having a non-cohesive plan. 

I'm just intrigued to see how well the stamp down is in keeping levels low longer or if opening up just lets it run wild (but not as bad since I'm betting Europeans will wear masks and such).

Honestly not sure how bad it'll have to get to shut it back down again - I think it'd take someone close to those in power getting caught up in it. 

[pulmonarymd]

Germany has kept its infection rate to an R of 1 or less, for weeks now, even with loosening if restrictions. Whether that continues as it goes on, who knows. But, they have an opportunity to see what they can do with a tolerable level of infections before fall comes. We have no chance now

[djAdvocate]

masks are a powerful tool.

too bad 40% of our population thinks they are a joke.

note: masks are how you show human empathy during a pandemic. if you don't have any, you are a selfish, spoiled prick who cares nothing for the welfare of others- not a freedom fighter.

we clear?

[tallguy]

No.

[pulmonarymd]

Tall guy, I have to say that your position on this is surprising. How is requiring a mask inside any different that requiring a shirt or shoes? Our directive is you must wear a mask if you cannot social distance. The pandemic is at a dangerous inflection point again. It looks like we are entering geometric growth again. Any small decrease in infections will have a significant effect.

In addition, the economy will not recover in any significant way until this is under some semblance of control. The extra spending on healthcare due to these cases(they are labor and cost intensive) and complications of deferred care will be significant. Arguing personal freedom when your right can actually kill someone is something I can’t wrap my head around in this instance. Your argument is similar to that of the gun lobby. We have to tolerate 30-40,000 dead because any restriction is wrong. How many lives need to be sacrificed to be too many?

[tallguy]

Jun 25, 2020 7:38:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tall guy, I have to say that your position on this is surprising. How is requiring a mask inside any different that requiring a shirt or shoes? Our directive is you must wear a mask if you cannot social distance. The pandemic is at a dangerous inflection point again. It looks like we are entering geometric growth again. Any small decrease in infections will have a significant effect.

In addition, the economy will not recover in any significant way until this is under some semblance of control. The extra spending on healthcare due to these cases(they are labor and cost intensive) and complications of deferred care will be significant. Arguing personal freedom when your right can actually kill someone is something I can’t wrap my head around in this instance. Your argument is similar to that of the gun lobby. We have to tolerate 30-40,000 dead because any restriction is wrong. How many lives need to be sacrificed to be too many?

It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The importance of individual liberties and freedoms are one of the two main tenets that undergird virtually all of my political beliefs.  This is merely an extension of that. 

My risk is extremely low to begin with.  I can easily manage that risk to make it near-zero.  I will stipulate the correctness of your earlier point that many people are stupid.  I am not one of those.  I will also stipulate that many people are naturally at far greater risk than I am.  I am retired, so do not have any job exposure or interaction.  I basically live alone, though my son has the downstairs apartment.  There is little interaction there either, and days may go by without seeing him, but we do maintain distance on almost all interactions.  I do see my girlfriend, but she is almost overboard on maintaining protections against the virus.  I comply with her requirements before I go over there.  I have no exposure to children.  I am not socially-oriented anyway, but social interactions outside of the home are non-existent now.  I rarely go to restaurants even in good times, and never to bars.  I avoid crowds for the most part even in those good times.  On those occasions when I do go to the store, it is easy to maintain social distancing.  The stores are not crowded to begin with, but if I ever need to pass someone in an aisle I can easily both turn my head and hold my breath for the three seconds it takes to do that.  I can go late at night when there are even fewer people to run into.  If I use a cashier there are plastic shields in place, or I can choose the self-checkout registers and interact with nobody.

I do not take this virus lightly, nor am I making a political statement in the manner of the president and his idiot followers.  I am merely maintaining that I personally am capable of running my life better than some bureaucrat instituting a blanket policy.  I will also say that I do not take seriously the arguments of the fear-mongerers who would attack me for supposedly not caring about others.  The risk of me becoming infected would be, to make a wild guess, about 1 in 100,000 given my lifestyle?  Until I first "lose" that lottery, the risk to anyone else due to my actions is absolutely zero.  

Starting tomorrow (actually in a month or so, but the mask requirement begins tomorrow), I will probably have to do store pickup rather than shopping myself.  Most will say it is a small price, or that I should just go ahead and wear a mask.  My tendency is not to give myself over to such small-picture thinking.  A rational fear should always be considered in one's decision-making process, but that fear should also be tempered by knowledge and logic.  Mine is.  

[thyme4change]

Jun 25, 2020 13:14:29 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 25, 2020 7:38:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tall guy, I have to say that your position on this is surprising. How is requiring a mask inside any different that requiring a shirt or shoes? Our directive is you must wear a mask if you cannot social distance. The pandemic is at a dangerous inflection point again. It looks like we are entering geometric growth again. Any small decrease in infections will have a significant effect.

In addition, the economy will not recover in any significant way until this is under some semblance of control. The extra spending on healthcare due to these cases(they are labor and cost intensive) and complications of deferred care will be significant. Arguing personal freedom when your right can actually kill someone is something I can’t wrap my head around in this instance. Your argument is similar to that of the gun lobby. We have to tolerate 30-40,000 dead because any restriction is wrong. How many lives need to be sacrificed to be too many?

It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The importance of individual liberties and freedoms are one of the two main tenets that undergird virtually all of my political beliefs.  This is merely an extension of that. 

My risk is extremely low to begin with.  I can easily manage that risk to make it near-zero.  I will stipulate the correctness of your earlier point that many people are stupid.  I am not one of those.  I will also stipulate that many people are naturally at far greater risk than I am.  I am retired, so do not have any job exposure or interaction.  I basically live alone, though my son has the downstairs apartment.  There is little interaction there either, and days may go by without seeing him, but we do maintain distance on almost all interactions.  I do see my girlfriend, but she is almost overboard on maintaining protections against the virus.  I comply with her requirements before I go over there.  I have no exposure to children.  I am not socially-oriented anyway, but social interactions outside of the home are non-existent now.  I rarely go to restaurants even in good times, and never to bars.  I avoid crowds for the most part even in those good times.  On those occasions when I do go to the store, it is easy to maintain social distancing.  The stores are not crowded to begin with, but if I ever need to pass someone in an aisle I can easily both turn my head and hold my breath for the three seconds it takes to do that.  I can go late at night when there are even fewer people to run into.  If I use a cashier there are plastic shields in place, or I can choose the self-checkout registers and interact with nobody.

I do not take this virus lightly, nor am I making a political statement in the manner of the president and his idiot followers.  I am merely maintaining that I personally am capable of running my life better than some bureaucrat instituting a blanket policy.  I will also say that I do not take seriously the arguments of the fear-mongerers who would attack me for supposedly not caring about others.  The risk of me becoming infected would be, to make a wild guess, about 1 in 100,000 given my lifestyle?  Until I first "lose" that lottery, the risk to anyone else due to my actions is absolutely zero.  

Starting tomorrow (actually in a month or so, but the mask requirement begins tomorrow), I will probably have to do store pickup rather than shopping myself.  Most will say it is a small price, or that I should just go ahead and wear a mask.  My tendency is not to give myself over to such small-picture thinking.  A rational fear should always be considered in one's decision-making process, but that fear should also be tempered by knowledge and logic.  Mine is.  

Once more...with feeling this time.....

You wearing a mask doesn't protect you, it protects the person next to you. You being low risk does not make the person next to you low risk.

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 25, 2020 13:14:29 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 25, 2020 7:38:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tall guy, I have to say that your position on this is surprising. How is requiring a mask inside any different that requiring a shirt or shoes? Our directive is you must wear a mask if you cannot social distance. The pandemic is at a dangerous inflection point again. It looks like we are entering geometric growth again. Any small decrease in infections will have a significant effect.

In addition, the economy will not recover in any significant way until this is under some semblance of control. The extra spending on healthcare due to these cases(they are labor and cost intensive) and complications of deferred care will be significant. Arguing personal freedom when your right can actually kill someone is something I can’t wrap my head around in this instance. Your argument is similar to that of the gun lobby. We have to tolerate 30-40,000 dead because any restriction is wrong. How many lives need to be sacrificed to be too many?

It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The importance of individual liberties and freedoms are one of the two main tenets that undergird virtually all of my political beliefs.  This is merely an extension of that. 

My risk is extremely low to begin with.  I can easily manage that risk to make it near-zero.  I will stipulate the correctness of your earlier point that many people are stupid.  I am not one of those.  I will also stipulate that many people are naturally at far greater risk than I am.  I am retired, so do not have any job exposure or interaction.  I basically live alone, though my son has the downstairs apartment.  There is little interaction there either, and days may go by without seeing him, but we do maintain distance on almost all interactions.  I do see my girlfriend, but she is almost overboard on maintaining protections against the virus.  I comply with her requirements before I go over there.  I have no exposure to children.  I am not socially-oriented anyway, but social interactions outside of the home are non-existent now.  I rarely go to restaurants even in good times, and never to bars.  I avoid crowds for the most part even in those good times.  On those occasions when I do go to the store, it is easy to maintain social distancing.  The stores are not crowded to begin with, but if I ever need to pass someone in an aisle I can easily both turn my head and hold my breath for the three seconds it takes to do that.  I can go late at night when there are even fewer people to run into.  If I use a cashier there are plastic shields in place, or I can choose the self-checkout registers and interact with nobody.

I do not take this virus lightly, nor am I making a political statement in the manner of the president and his idiot followers.  I am merely maintaining that I personally am capable of running my life better than some bureaucrat instituting a blanket policy.  I will also say that I do not take seriously the arguments of the fear-mongerers who would attack me for supposedly not caring about others.  The risk of me becoming infected would be, to make a wild guess, about 1 in 100,000 given my lifestyle?  Until I first "lose" that lottery, the risk to anyone else due to my actions is absolutely zero.  

Starting tomorrow (actually in a month or so, but the mask requirement begins tomorrow), I will probably have to do store pickup rather than shopping myself.  Most will say it is a small price, or that I should just go ahead and wear a mask.  My tendency is not to give myself over to such small-picture thinking.  A rational fear should always be considered in one's decision-making process, but that fear should also be tempered by knowledge and logic.  Mine is.  

So, how do you propose to limit the damage due to this virus, realizing that people will not be as careful as you are, and that there are people like me who have to be exposed. Am I going to need to essentially be on house arrest unless I am going to and from work? How do we protect essential workers from the idiots? I understand your strongly held belief, so how do we manage this, knowing people will flout rules. Shut everything down until the risk passes? I know you see and that recognize the unfolding disaster in our southern and southwestern states

[tallguy]

Jun 25, 2020 15:37:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 25, 2020 13:14:29 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The importance of individual liberties and freedoms are one of the two main tenets that undergird virtually all of my political beliefs.  This is merely an extension of that. 

My risk is extremely low to begin with.  I can easily manage that risk to make it near-zero.  I will stipulate the correctness of your earlier point that many people are stupid.  I am not one of those.  I will also stipulate that many people are naturally at far greater risk than I am.  I am retired, so do not have any job exposure or interaction.  I basically live alone, though my son has the downstairs apartment.  There is little interaction there either, and days may go by without seeing him, but we do maintain distance on almost all interactions.  I do see my girlfriend, but she is almost overboard on maintaining protections against the virus.  I comply with her requirements before I go over there.  I have no exposure to children.  I am not socially-oriented anyway, but social interactions outside of the home are non-existent now.  I rarely go to restaurants even in good times, and never to bars.  I avoid crowds for the most part even in those good times.  On those occasions when I do go to the store, it is easy to maintain social distancing.  The stores are not crowded to begin with, but if I ever need to pass someone in an aisle I can easily both turn my head and hold my breath for the three seconds it takes to do that.  I can go late at night when there are even fewer people to run into.  If I use a cashier there are plastic shields in place, or I can choose the self-checkout registers and interact with nobody.

I do not take this virus lightly, nor am I making a political statement in the manner of the president and his idiot followers.  I am merely maintaining that I personally am capable of running my life better than some bureaucrat instituting a blanket policy.  I will also say that I do not take seriously the arguments of the fear-mongerers who would attack me for supposedly not caring about others.  The risk of me becoming infected would be, to make a wild guess, about 1 in 100,000 given my lifestyle?  Until I first "lose" that lottery, the risk to anyone else due to my actions is absolutely zero.  

Starting tomorrow (actually in a month or so, but the mask requirement begins tomorrow), I will probably have to do store pickup rather than shopping myself.  Most will say it is a small price, or that I should just go ahead and wear a mask.  My tendency is not to give myself over to such small-picture thinking.  A rational fear should always be considered in one's decision-making process, but that fear should also be tempered by knowledge and logic.  Mine is.  

Once more...with feeling this time.....

You wearing a mask doesn't protect you, it protects the person next to you. You being low risk does not make the person next to you low risk.

But again, I have to first lose the bet with maybe 1 in 100,000 odds to create ANY risk for the person next to me.  Their risk from me otherwise is zero.  It would be roughly the same as coming on here and making a post, asking people to guess a number between 1 and 100,000.  I'm very confident that the first person to guess would not be correct.  Pretty much the same odds. 

[tallguy]

Jun 25, 2020 15:40:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jun 25, 2020 13:14:29 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The importance of individual liberties and freedoms are one of the two main tenets that undergird virtually all of my political beliefs.  This is merely an extension of that. 

My risk is extremely low to begin with.  I can easily manage that risk to make it near-zero.  I will stipulate the correctness of your earlier point that many people are stupid.  I am not one of those.  I will also stipulate that many people are naturally at far greater risk than I am.  I am retired, so do not have any job exposure or interaction.  I basically live alone, though my son has the downstairs apartment.  There is little interaction there either, and days may go by without seeing him, but we do maintain distance on almost all interactions.  I do see my girlfriend, but she is almost overboard on maintaining protections against the virus.  I comply with her requirements before I go over there.  I have no exposure to children.  I am not socially-oriented anyway, but social interactions outside of the home are non-existent now.  I rarely go to restaurants even in good times, and never to bars.  I avoid crowds for the most part even in those good times.  On those occasions when I do go to the store, it is easy to maintain social distancing.  The stores are not crowded to begin with, but if I ever need to pass someone in an aisle I can easily both turn my head and hold my breath for the three seconds it takes to do that.  I can go late at night when there are even fewer people to run into.  If I use a cashier there are plastic shields in place, or I can choose the self-checkout registers and interact with nobody.

I do not take this virus lightly, nor am I making a political statement in the manner of the president and his idiot followers.  I am merely maintaining that I personally am capable of running my life better than some bureaucrat instituting a blanket policy.  I will also say that I do not take seriously the arguments of the fear-mongerers who would attack me for supposedly not caring about others.  The risk of me becoming infected would be, to make a wild guess, about 1 in 100,000 given my lifestyle?  Until I first "lose" that lottery, the risk to anyone else due to my actions is absolutely zero.  

Starting tomorrow (actually in a month or so, but the mask requirement begins tomorrow), I will probably have to do store pickup rather than shopping myself.  Most will say it is a small price, or that I should just go ahead and wear a mask.  My tendency is not to give myself over to such small-picture thinking.  A rational fear should always be considered in one's decision-making process, but that fear should also be tempered by knowledge and logic.  Mine is.  

So, how do you propose to limit the damage due to this virus, realizing that people will not be as careful as you are, and that there are people like me who have to be exposed. Am I going to need to essentially be on house arrest unless I am going to and from work? How do we protect essential workers from the idiots? I understand your strongly held belief, so how do we manage this, knowing people will flout rules. Shut everything down until the risk passes? I know you see and that recognize the unfolding disaster in our southern and southwestern states

Yes, I actually do see your point, and wish just as much that our country was not filled with stupid people.  I also recognize that I may have to comply with this, just like I do with a mandatory seatbelt law.  I don't have to like it, or believe that it is fundamentally a good or necessary restriction.  I do not have an easy answer for how to protect essential workers, however.  Most stores have done a good job in protecting them, but health care workers are in a necessarily different category.  The one thing I would hope is that any enforcement of this mandate be based on the behavior involved, not the mere failure to wear a mask.  If someone is being reckless, cite them.  If they're not, ignore it.  Me being in a store, quickly and quietly going about my business and ensuring minimal contact with others, is not reckless.     

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 25, 2020 16:10:36 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:40:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

So, how do you propose to limit the damage due to this virus, realizing that people will not be as careful as you are, and that there are people like me who have to be exposed. Am I going to need to essentially be on house arrest unless I am going to and from work? How do we protect essential workers from the idiots? I understand your strongly held belief, so how do we manage this, knowing people will flout rules. Shut everything down until the risk passes? I know you see and that recognize the unfolding disaster in our southern and southwestern states

Yes, I actually do see your point, and wish just as much that our country was not filled with stupid people.  I also recognize that I may have to comply with this, just like I do with a mandatory seatbelt law.  I don't have to like it, or believe that it is fundamentally a good or necessary restriction.  I do not have an easy answer for how to protect essential workers, however.  Most stores have done a good job in protecting them, but health care workers are in a necessarily different category.  The one thing I would hope is that any enforcement of this mandate be based on the behavior involved, not the mere failure to wear a mask.  If someone is being reckless, cite them.  If they're not, ignore it.  Me being in a store, quickly and quietly going about my business and ensuring minimal contact with others, is not reckless.     

Actually, I feel less at risk at work than at the grocery store. I can control my risk at work, and have ways of protecting myself. It’s the recklessness of the general public I have concerns with. I, like you, do not like that we have many stupid and inconsiderate people. But I do believe if we could comply with reasonable restrictions, that we would have more things open, and have better control of the situation.

[thyme4change]

Jun 25, 2020 15:46:51 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:37:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Once more...with feeling this time.....

You wearing a mask doesn't protect you, it protects the person next to you. You being low risk does not make the person next to you low risk.

But again, I have to first lose the bet with maybe 1 in 100,000 odds to create ANY risk for the person next to me.  Their risk from me otherwise is zero.  It would be roughly the same as coming on here and making a post, asking people to guess a number between 1 and 100,000.  I'm very confident that the first person to guess would not be correct.  Pretty much the same odds. 

Welp, the odds that your baby will die from meningitis when you have early medical care, etc. Is less than 1 in a million, but someone has to be that 1. You do you, but please refrain from telling people with lessor analytical skills that masks aren't necessary.

[tallguy]

Jun 25, 2020 16:48:06 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 25, 2020 15:46:51 GMT -5 tallguy said:

But again, I have to first lose the bet with maybe 1 in 100,000 odds to create ANY risk for the person next to me.  Their risk from me otherwise is zero.  It would be roughly the same as coming on here and making a post, asking people to guess a number between 1 and 100,000.  I'm very confident that the first person to guess would not be correct.  Pretty much the same odds. 

Welp, the odds that your baby will die from meningitis when you have early medical care, etc. Is less than 1 in a million, but someone has to be that 1. You do you, but please refrain from telling people with lessor analytical skills that masks aren't necessary.

No, I would never suggest that to anyone else.  I make my choices only for me, as I can really be responsible only for me.  Others will make their choices for themselves, and those consequences are on them.  I was hesitant even to post about this, since I don't want anyone to adopt my belief without analysis of their own risk.  I ended up going with the idea that people here are adults, and that there would be sufficient followup on both sides of the debate.   

[justme]

Jun 25, 2020 16:22:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jun 25, 2020 16:10:36 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yes, I actually do see your point, and wish just as much that our country was not filled with stupid people.  I also recognize that I may have to comply with this, just like I do with a mandatory seatbelt law.  I don't have to like it, or believe that it is fundamentally a good or necessary restriction.  I do not have an easy answer for how to protect essential workers, however.  Most stores have done a good job in protecting them, but health care workers are in a necessarily different category.  The one thing I would hope is that any enforcement of this mandate be based on the behavior involved, not the mere failure to wear a mask.  If someone is being reckless, cite them.  If they're not, ignore it.  Me being in a store, quickly and quietly going about my business and ensuring minimal contact with others, is not reckless.     

Actually, I feel less at risk at work than at the grocery store. I can control my risk at work, and have ways of protecting myself. It’s the recklessness of the general public I have concerns with. I, like you, do not like that we have many stupid and inconsiderate people. But I do believe if we could comply with reasonable restrictions, that we would have more things open, and have better control of the situation.

Even as I was (I'm in Florida, kinda afraid to go out) starting to do things (restaurants, hanging out with friends at hours, bar was too packed for me) I didn't change much of my grocery shopping habits. I am tending to go out more than once every 2 weeks, but I've also started going to dr appointments again so I'll piggyback on the outtings when I already have my mask to top off supplies. But holy hell I don't think I've been to a store yet where I was able to successfully keep 6 feet from everyone no matter how hard I try. Which is why I started wearing masks as soon as I was able to get one in the beginning of April. (I know they're not fullproof, but I think having 3 layers and filter between me and the outside air has to be better than nothing even on my end). 

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 25, 2020 17:07:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jun 25, 2020 16:48:06 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Welp, the odds that your baby will die from meningitis when you have early medical care, etc. Is less than 1 in a million, but someone has to be that 1. You do you, but please refrain from telling people with lessor analytical skills that masks aren't necessary.

No, I would never suggest that to anyone else.  I make my choices only for me, as I can really be responsible only for me.  Others will make their choices for themselves, and those consequences are on them.  I was hesitant even to post about this, since I don't want anyone to adopt my belief without analysis of their own risk.  I ended up going with the idea that people here are adults, and that there would be sufficient followup on both sides of the debate.   

The problem is that guidelines aren’t for the reasonable, smart, rational people, but for the stupid, careless, of willfully negligent. Same as in medicine. Guidelines are meant to move the mean. Low performers improve, but the annoy/hinder high performers. The theory is the move the mean in a positive direction, but they are annoying to us who feel we are above average

[Spellbound454]

This virus is a great leveller.......... it doesn't care how clever/stupid you are

The graveyards are full of the great and good.

I think everybody has to do their bit to get the figures down........... and its only the public who can do this.