Trumptatorship?

[Bob Ross]

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/02/donald-trump-george-floyd-protests-military-threat

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross,” goes an oft-quoted line of uncertain origin.

On Monday evening, Donald Trump, with four US flags behind him, threatened to send in the military against the American people, then crossed the road to pose for a photo outside a historic church while clutching a Bible. He was only able to get there after heavily armed police and horse-mounted national guardsmen fired teargas and rubber bullets to chase away peaceful protesters and journalists.

The shocking split-screen moment probably left millions of Americans shaken, frightened and outraged. Comparisons to dictators, fashionable during Trump’s political ascent, have fallen out of favour in recent years. Now they might be in for a comeback. Certainly top Democrats did not hold back.

Ron Wyden, a Democratic senator for Oregon, tweeted: “The fascist speech Donald Trump just delivered verged on a declaration of war against American citizens. I fear for our country tonight and will not stop defending America against Trump’s assault.”

Kamala Harris, a Democratic senator for California, told the MSNBC network: “These are not the words of a president. They are the words of a dictator.”

At this point, do you think Trump will both choose to and be able to successfully pull off an autocratic rise to power?

My thoughts are that it's very possible that he'll try.  It's definitely within the parameters of his personality, and the country is quickly reaching a point where the historical "ingredients" for such an action are in place.  I think the chances of him trying increase as it looks less and less likely that he'll win in November, but I don't know if it will reach that tipping point. 

His chances of success would depend on the military.  Would they side with Trump as CoC, or The Constitution?  I heard one commenter say that most of the fighting (not support) troops hail from extremely red regions so that isn't too comforting.  And what about the Generals?  It helps that folks like Mattis and Allen are speaking out about this, but they are retired.  It's really up to what the active duty military leaders think, but their culture is one of not speaking out against the CoC so we don't really know.  Hoping that the retired ones are serving as their mouthpieces.

Thoughts?

[billisonboard]

His chances of success would depend on the military.  Would they side with Trump as CoC, or The Constitution?  I heard one commenter say that most of the fighting (not support) troops hail from extremely red regions so that isn't too comforting.

On this point: I think you would see fractures in the military community making them unreliable allies for Trump. I could even envision, in a worst case scenario, battles between US military divisions.

[happyhoix]

I think it very likely Trump will claim rampant voter fraud if he loses, and he my try to refuse to leave the WH.

However I’m encouraged by an article I read by a former military person who talked about how civilian rule is drummed into the military, and how any military people who support trump will know they are committing treason if the do not support the newly elected president.

I’ve also been encouraged by the number of retired military people speaking out against trump calling up the military against protesters.

And the number of GoPers who have said this is going too far.

That’s not to say there won’t be militia type people, especially in my neck of the woods, who wouldn’t support Trump. Trump will leave kicking and screaming and spawning chaos like he likes to do.

[Bob Ross]

Jun 4, 2020 10:19:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it very likely Trump will claim rampant voter fraud if he loses, and he my try to refuse to leave the WH.

However I’m encouraged by an article I read by a former military person who talked about how civilian rule is drummed into the military, and how any military people who support trump will know they are committing treason if the do not support the newly elected president.

I’ve also been encouraged by the number of retired military people speaking out against trump calling up the military against protesters.

And the number of GoPers who have said this is going too far.

That’s not to say there won’t be militia type people, especially in my neck of the woods, who wouldn’t support Trump. Trump will leave kicking and screaming and spawning chaos like he likes to do.

Yes, but I was thinking what if this happens before the election, rather than after he loses it?  Say if he continues to screw up and is polling at at least a 20% spread by September?

[billisonboard]

Jun 4, 2020 10:27:27 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Jun 4, 2020 10:19:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it very likely Trump will claim rampant voter fraud if he loses, and he my try to refuse to leave the WH.

However I’m encouraged by an article I read by a former military person who talked about how civilian rule is drummed into the military, and how any military people who support trump will know they are committing treason if the do not support the newly elected president.

I’ve also been encouraged by the number of retired military people speaking out against trump calling up the military against protesters.

And the number of GoPers who have said this is going too far.

That’s not to say there won’t be militia type people, especially in my neck of the woods, who wouldn’t support Trump. Trump will leave kicking and screaming and spawning chaos like he likes to do.

Yes, but I was thinking what if this happens before the election, rather than after he loses it?  Say if he continues to screw up and is polling at at least a 20% spread by September?

If it happens before, I think that states will hold elections in November, Electoral College delegates will vote in their respective states in December, and Biden will become Presdent in January.

[souldoubt]

As crazy as times are and the fact that the country is more divided than ever I don't see it happening because I don't see him having the backing to pull it off.  As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  I can't imagine at this point that many independent or middle of the road voters are going to back him when all he's done is fan the flames at every turn.  He's simply not a leader and isn't qualified to run the country.  That said he's bat shit insane so I wouldn't put anything past him.

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 4, 2020 10:27:27 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Jun 4, 2020 10:19:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it very likely Trump will claim rampant voter fraud if he loses, and he my try to refuse to leave the WH.

However I’m encouraged by an article I read by a former military person who talked about how civilian rule is drummed into the military, and how any military people who support trump will know they are committing treason if the do not support the newly elected president.

I’ve also been encouraged by the number of retired military people speaking out against trump calling up the military against protesters.

And the number of GoPers who have said this is going too far.

That’s not to say there won’t be militia type people, especially in my neck of the woods, who wouldn’t support Trump. Trump will leave kicking and screaming and spawning chaos like he likes to do.

Yes, but I was thinking what if this happens before the election, rather than after he loses it?  Say if he continues to screw up and is polling at at least a 20% spread by September?

If he is 20 points down, you will see all kind of republicans claim they have no idea who he is. Self-preservation first

[Bob Ross]

Jun 4, 2020 11:18:34 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

As crazy as times are and the fact that the country is more divided than ever I don't see it happening because I don't see him having the backing to pull it off.  As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  I can't imagine at this point that many independent or middle of the road voters are going to back him when all he's done is fan the flames at every turn.  He's simply not a leader and isn't qualified to run the country.  That said he's bat shit insane so I wouldn't put anything past him.

I'm not talking about backing from the general populace, but rather, the military...plus his alt-right cult militias and whatnot.  Would it simply take support from The Joint Chiefs?  Or just a few Generals?  Would the troops follow the chain of command to a tee if such an order were given?  I know military officers have an obligation not to carry out any order that's unlawful or unconstitutional, but I'm sure if this were to come about, he and his cronies would find a convenient "gray area" under which to carry it out.

Any current or ex-military folks here who can speak to this?

10 days ago I would've thought this unthinkable.  I even made posts on here saying as such.  But now...

[souldoubt]

No I don't think the military would go along with some BS order that keeps him in power.  Plenty of respected generals and military leaders have called him out as not being fit to lead and I can't imagine the military buying into whatever crap he's selling if he were to order them to help him maintain power through military force. 

[Tennesseer]

[billisonboard]

Jun 4, 2020 12:12:08 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

[I'm not talking about backing from the general populace, but rather, the military...plus his alt-right cult militias and whatnot.  Would it simply take support from The Joint Chiefs?  Or just a few Generals?  Would the troops follow the chain of command to a tee if such an order were given?  I know military officers have an obligation not to carry out any order that's unlawful or unconstitutional, but I'm sure if this were to come about, he and his cronies would find a convenient "gray area" under which to carry it out.

Any current or ex-military folks here who can speak to this?

10 days ago I would've thought this unthinkable.  I even made posts on here saying as such.  But now...

A "correction: I know every member of the military officers have an obligation not to carry out any order that's unlawful or unconstitutional. That point was pounded into me starting in boot camp.

I am not sure to what degree today's United States is autocratally controllable by the military (or any institution for that matter). I suppose if you stationed troops in each state capital with a military governor. You have states like Oregon and Washington (I'm a West Coast guy) where Salem and Olympia aren't going to control Portland and Seattle. I am thinking the same would be true in New York. I see a very stretched military, even if all play. Then there is the question of those stationed overseas. Do some or all get recalled?

But if it was attempted: I think troop reaction would be mixed. I see a segment of officers resigning their commissions. I think some enlisted would desert. I think there would be a fair amount passive resistance. If it came down to shooting, a lot of unfired weapons.

[ltdan]

Former Guardsman here (only activated for state duty once).  I think the answer for the average guard soldier regarding following the chain of command to a T really depends on several factors: overall unit leadership, the area and demographics (I served in a unit based in a major city, as well as in ‘the sticks’), and the type of unit being asked to deploy (infantry or MP versus transportation or ordnance).  
If my unit based in the city was ordered to activate and use force against protestors (‘their own’ people, and possibly neighbors); there would be a lot of no-shows.  Naturally, this was a support unit consisting of mechanics, clerks, cooks, and truck drivers...
The unit in the sticks that was ordered to travel under orders to quell a riot in a city would have a better turnout, but there would still be a lot of grumbling.  

Now an Infantry or MP unit with better training and a more ‘hooah’ attitude may be more apt to follow orders on dealing with protestors, but that’s just my assumption. 

I will say, the top brass should have clear guidelines for the ‘joes’ and ‘janes’ on the level of force permissible to use on protestors.  I would personally be hyperventilating if my city unit was activated with a full combat load.  (Have you seen support units on a qual range?!)

[weltschmerz]

Trump is becoming more and more like Colonel Walter E. Kurtz, in Apocalypse Now. Bat-shit crazy with a contingent of loyal followers.

[billisonboard]

If my unit based in the city was ordered to activate and use force against protestors

A tricky part is there are two situations. One is short term, stopping an active protest. The other is day after day, night after night, week after week, month after month, year after year of occupation to prevent any rebellion against Trump autocratic rule from Washington DC.

[kadee79]

I put these questions to a gal who's DH is a retired Marine & is working on base as a civilian now...so she is around a lot of military most of the time....her reply...

I lean towards agreeing with souldoubt on this one, I do not think our military leaders will side with him.

He has some support from quite a few individual active-duty members of course but I do not think the military as a whole or one or more individual branch will back him and support him in any sort of coup



Space force aside lol

I dont know jack about this new branch of our military and how loyal anyone who is a part of it would be or is



I also think Mattis speaking out is going to have a huge impact with Marines and helping them think for themselves and start to open their minds

This was a huge step for him and anyone who has ever served with him or under him (no matter branch) knows he doesnt talk politics and he sure as heck doesnt say a bad thing about a sitting president out of respect for the office not the occupant.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

trumptatorship

so - first thought is a battleship built out of tater tots that trump is having as a meal?

Not that?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 4, 2020 17:47:44 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

trumptatorship

so - first thought is a battleship built out of tater tots that trump is having as a meal?

Not that?

A palace built of baloney?

[thyme4change]

His church/bible stunt has divided evangelicals. A crack can become a canyon.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/04/trumps-bible-photo-op-splits-white-evangelicals

[Icelandic Woman]

[billisonboard]

Donald Trump orders 9,500 US troops to leave Germany

Maybe we should be concerned.

[kadee79]

Jun 5, 2020 20:53:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Donald Trump orders 9,500 US troops to leave Germany

Maybe we should be concerned.

There is nothing at the link now.  However, I read that many of those were staying in Europe just in different locations like Poland but a few would be coming home.

And then there is this.....

In a heated and contentious debate in the Oval Office last Monday morning, President Trump demanded the military put 10,000 active duty troops into the streets immediately, a senior administration official told CBS News. Attorney General William Barr, Defense Secretary Mark Esper and Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley objected to the demand, the official said.



In an attempt to satisfy Mr. Trump's demand, Esper and Milley used a call with the nation's governors later that morning to implore them to call up the National Guard in their own states, the official said. If these governors didn't "call up the Guard, we'd have (active duty) troops all over the country," this official said.



That same day, the Pentagon started bringing in 1,600 active-duty troops to bases just outside the District of Columbia. Late that afternoon, Esper and Milley were on their way to the FBI's Washington Field Office, where the command center for the military and law enforcement response to the protests was located, the official said. En route, they received a call to come to the White House to give the President an update.



They did not brief the president, but they were asked to stay for his address in the Rose Garden and then to accompany him on the walk across Lafayette Park to St. John's Church. Milley had been wearing his dress uniform in the morning but changed to his combat fatigues because he knew it was going to be a long night at the FBI command center, the official said. Neither man realized the purpose of the walk was to stage a photo op in front of the church.

www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-demanded-10000-active-duty-troops-deploy-to-streets-in-heated-oval-office-meeting/

[laterbloomer]

Jun 4, 2020 12:40:45 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

No I don't think the military would go along with some BS order that keeps him in power.  Plenty of respected generals and military leaders have called him out as not being fit to lead and I can't imagine the military buying into whatever crap he's selling if he were to order them to help him maintain power through military force. 

He gets to fire the current generals and put ones in place as nuts as he is. 

[laterbloomer]

Jun 4, 2020 10:19:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I think it very likely Trump will claim rampant voter fraud if he loses, and he my try to refuse to leave the WH.

I think Trump is going to COMMIT rampant voter fraud to "win". I am sure that is what he did last time. The Russians aren't just pissing around with FB advertising to mess with your elections. They are doing real damage.

[laterbloomer]

Jun 4, 2020 11:18:34 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  

What proof do you have of this. Anyone I have seen that ever admitted to backing him is still backing him. 

I don't think you guys realise just how dire your situation is. 

[kadee79]

Jun 6, 2020 22:16:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jun 4, 2020 11:18:34 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  

What proof do you have of this. Anyone I have seen that ever admitted to backing him is still backing him. 

I don't think you guys realise just how dire your situation is. 

Here is one...

www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/vote-for-trump-these-republican-leaders-arent-on-the-bandwagon/ar-BB1584Tc?li=BBnb7Kz

And I'm not sure where I posted another one from a guy in Minn....he has been a GOPer all his life but said he will vote a straight Democratic ticket this year due to what DT has done/not done with the virus & the protests.  

[Tennesseer]

Jun 6, 2020 22:16:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jun 4, 2020 11:18:34 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  

What proof do you have of this. Anyone I have seen that ever admitted to backing him is still backing him. 

I don't think you guys realise just how dire your situation is. 

Purely anecdotal but the only one of my siblings, nieces and nephews who was a trump supporter and Republican is my youngest brother. Over the past year he is now anti-trump and will vote for Biden come November. Loathes trump.

[Tennesseer]

The Trump Regime Is Beginning to Topple
The best way to grasp the magnitude of what we’re seeing is to look for precedents abroad.

Over the course of his presidency, Donald Trump has indulged his authoritarian instincts—and now he’s meeting the common fate of autocrats whose people turn against them. What the United States is witnessing is less like the chaos of 1968, which further divided a nation, and more like the nonviolent movements that earned broad societal support in places such as Serbia, Ukraine, and Tunisia, and swept away the dictatorial likes of Milošević, Yanukovych, and Ben Ali.

And although Trump’s time in office will end with an election and not an ouster, it is only possible to grasp the magnitude of what we’re seeing and to map what comes next by looking to these antecedents from abroad.

As in the case of many such revolutions, two battles are being waged in America. One is a long struggle against a brutal and repressive ideology. The other is a narrower fight over the fate of a particular leader. The president rose to power by inflaming racial tensions. He now finds his own fate enmeshed in the struggle against police brutality and racism.

Complete article here: The Trump Regime Is Beginning to Topple

[ken a.k.a OMK]

WASHINGTON, June 7 (Reuters) - Former Secretary of State and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell on Sunday endorsed Democratic former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, becoming the first major Republican to publicly back Donald Trump's rival ahead of November's election.

Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice in the President's Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)© The U.S. National Archives Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice in the President's Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)
Powell, who led the U.S. military during the 1991 Gulf War under Republican former President George H.W. Bush and later led the U.S. Department of State under President George W. Bush, said Trump was "ineffective" and has only gotten worse since he took office.

"I cannot in any way support President Trump this year," Powell, who did not vote for Trump in 2016, told CNN in an interview.

Asked if he would vote for Biden, he added: "I will be voting for him."

www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/former-top-republican-general-powell-endorses-democrat-biden-for-president/ar-BB159Rhb?li=BBnb7Kz

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jun 6, 2020 22:16:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jun 4, 2020 11:18:34 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

As mentioned there's more and more people on the right who are fed up with him and I think that number will only continue to grow.  

What proof do you have of this. Anyone I have seen that ever admitted to backing him is still backing him. 

I don't think you guys realise just how dire your situation is. 

Not my experience.  Of the people I know who voted for him in 2016, only about 1/4 claim they will do so this year.  Even my best friends forever are utterly disgusted, and this is the first time I have ever seen them even consider voting Democrat since 1984 (we met in 1979).

[kadee79]

And poor Huckabee is going to be "LIVID"....so tell me, who cares?

Former Governor Mike Huckabee (R-AR) expressed his shock and dismay Sunday morning that several prominent Republicans will reportedly not support President Donald Trump in the 2020 election.


“Well I don’t know if it’s true because it’s in The New York Times,” Huckabee snarked on Fox & Friends Weekend, claiming that the paper is “wrong more than they’re right.”



“But if that’s true and if you have people who were nominated, and in the case of President Bush actually elected to be president by Republicans, and they will no longer support the Republican nominee who went through the process and got elected,” Huckabee said, “then I’m going to be not just unhappy, I’m going to be livid.”

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mike-huckabee-livid-at-republicans-who-wont-bow-down-to-trump/ar-BB159ZXg?ocid=spartandhp