billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 10:21:04 GMT -5
A question was asked in an inappropriate place so starting this thread. Why was the police officer charged with Third Degree Murder? Here are descriptions of the different "degrees". My reading of it tells me he was charged with Third Degree Murder because he committed Third Degree Murder.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 31, 2020 11:01:09 GMT -5
Murder one would be premeditated. This tragic incident was not premeditated.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 31, 2020 11:02:40 GMT -5
It is the easiest to prove. Many cases have been lost by overshooting the charges.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on May 31, 2020 11:13:02 GMT -5
Murder one requires premeditation which I don't think happened. Murder two still requires intent to commit murder. Several prosecutors I saw yesterday said it would be hard to prove that he intended to commit murder.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 31, 2020 11:16:37 GMT -5
I wish that you had posted a link to the actual statutes instead of what amounts to a defense lawyer's advertising. I'll have to click on the links in that link before commenting. The description of various types of state murder charges what you linked to seem a bit slanted.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 11:22:09 GMT -5
It is the easiest to prove. Many cases have been lost by overshooting the charges. As I think about it, it is harder to prove. First Degree would be easiest to prove. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will provide text messages in which the defendant states he is going to kill the victim. We will provide video showing the defendant purchasing the murder weapon the day before the shooting." When there is premeditation, it can be easy to prove. Granted if there is no premeditation, it is kinda tough if not impossible to prove. A "dangerous act with a depraved mental state" can be more open to doubt. What constitutes a "dangerous act"? What does "depraved" require? Please don't get me wrong, I do think the video shows behavior that fits that description but I am not going to be on the jury.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 31, 2020 11:26:10 GMT -5
Ok. If you have text messages it’s easier to prove?
Premeditation rarely presents itself as such.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 11:28:09 GMT -5
I wish that you had posted a link to the actual statutes instead of what amounts to a defense lawyer's advertising. I'll have to click on the links in that link before commenting. The description of various types of state murder charges what you linked to seem a bit slanted. Sunday morning and I am using a tablet are my excuses for being lazy on this. Looking forward to you commenting after you research more.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 11:35:55 GMT -5
Ok. If you have text messages it’s easier to prove? Premeditation rarely presents itself as such. I will admit I don't know premeditation normally presents itself. Thanks for sharing your expertise. So how does "dangerous act with a depraved mental state" usually present itself that makes it easier to prove?
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oped
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Post by oped on May 31, 2020 12:31:28 GMT -5
Ok. If you have text messages it’s easier to prove? Premeditation rarely presents itself as such. I will admit I don't know premeditation normally presents itself. Thanks for sharing your expertise. So how does "dangerous act with a depraved mental state" usually present itself that makes it easier to prove? Focuses on an act. Relies upon a common definition of depraved... would a jury find kneeling on a man’s neck for 9 minutes while he says he can’t breath and continuing 3 minutes after he goes still as depraved? Mostly my mind was conjuring other instances where the prosecution went for murder 1 and lost when a lower threshold might have been met but was not an option for the jury.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 31, 2020 12:47:49 GMT -5
I wish that you had posted a link to the actual statutes instead of what amounts to a defense lawyer's advertising. I'll have to click on the links in that link before commenting. The description of various types of state murder charges what you linked to seem a bit slanted. Sunday morning and I am using a tablet are my excuses for being lazy on this. Looking forward to you commenting after you research more. No apology is necessary. I took my time slogging through the statutes too. It wasn't a fun read, or an easy one, and I probably would not have done it if I had not, well, pretty much put myself in a situation where I had to.
Despite my earlier flip reaction that I was reading a solicitation for services, the Minnesota statutes governing first and second degree murder are surprisingly narrow. It hurts to see such callous behavior resulting in death described as third degree anything, but after reading the statutes, this might be the right charge.
I was not expecting to find myself typing this. My initial thoughts that the defendant was charged with third degree murder were much more along the lines of "WTF, third degree?" and "WTF does the evidence that has not been made public yet show?". My imagination was really tilted toward what might be in the coroner's report, or in the body cam recordings, or in some of the unreleased business surveillance recordings, that led the prosecutors to choose what initially sounds like an offensively low charge.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 31, 2020 13:04:39 GMT -5
Do a lot of people really text their Mom or friend or whatever and tell them they are planning to murder someone?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 13:31:29 GMT -5
Do a lot of people really text their Mom or friend or whatever and tell them they are planning to murder someone? again Sunday morning and a tablet laziness. I am sure it is rarely if ever that straight forward. I just might to suggest that evidence that showed that steps were taken prior to the physical act of ending a person's life that show it was planned isn't more difficult to identify and present to a jury than proving the person had a "depraved mental state" while committing "a dangerous act" as was the claim I was refuting.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 31, 2020 13:46:24 GMT -5
He may not have set out to murder someone.
But racism is so systemic that we've all absorbed the message that certain lives are of no value. Those messages attract certain types of people into positions of power.
We see it all the time on the boards. It was just over on the politics board. Decades of systemic racism are brought up to justify what happened. It's not the police man's fault after all this black guy over here did shoot a police officer therefore he HAS to use excessive force with every black person he encounters just in case.
Police are blameless, it's up to people of color to change their minds and behave like cilivized (white) people. Otherwise these things won't happen.
So while it may not have been premeditated we certainly live in a society that when people choose to behave the way he did, we look the other way and spend hours justifying it to ourselves. He may not have announced to himself in the mirror he was going to murder someone today but he works and lives in a society that doesn't discourage it either.
He needs to be put away absolutely no doubt about it but nothing is going to change until we change the system. People like him thrive because we let them. We need to stop letting them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 13:54:30 GMT -5
Sunday morning and I am using a tablet are my excuses for being lazy on this. Looking forward to you commenting after you research more. No apology is necessary. I took my time slogging through the statutes too. It wasn't a fun read, or an easy one, and I probably would not have done it if I had not, well, pretty much put myself in a situation where I had to.
Despite my earlier flip reaction that I was reading a solicitation for services, the Minnesota statutes governing first and second degree murder are surprisingly narrow. It hurts to see such callous behavior resulting in death described as third degree anything, but after reading the statutes, this might be the right charge.
I was not expecting to find myself typing this. My initial thoughts that the defendant was charged with third degree murder were much more along the lines of "WTF, third degree?" and "WTF does the evidence that has not been made public yet show?". My imagination was really tilted toward what might be in the coroner's report, or ib the body cam recordings, or in some of the unreleased business surveillance recordings, that led the prosecutors to choose what initially sounds like an offensively low charge.
I think the 3rd degree charge is appropriate by law. A quick verdict and maximum sentence would be a sign of justice served to me.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 14:00:19 GMT -5
He may not have set out to murder someone. But racism is so systemic that we've all absorbed the message that certain lives are of no value. Those messages attract certain types of people into positions of power. ... I think we all have been exposed to it. Only some have absorbed it. And those with that have done so and act upon it prove they possess a "depraved mental state".
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on May 31, 2020 14:05:52 GMT -5
It’s absolutely critical that Americans hear and understand that sometimes a prosecutor charges a suspect with a lower level but provable charge while he or she gathers evidence, issues subpoenas, seeks grand jury testimony, etc. A charge can simply be a place holder while the investigation continues. It can keep a suspect in jail or at least in the area (surrender passport, ankle bracelet, etc.) whereas without charges the suspect will have to be released within 48 hours or so and can flee. The initial charges are NOT necessarily the final charges. We need to give the prosecutors the time to do their work and do it well so that they can put this scum away forever.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on May 31, 2020 14:11:55 GMT -5
Premeditation is an element of first degree murder, but depending upon individual state laws, other criteria can render a killing first degree murder without premeditation: depravity, during the commission of a felony, etc. So, give the prosecutor a chance to do his or her job and collect the evidence to complete the charges (and hopefully charge the other 3 officers).
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 31, 2020 14:20:58 GMT -5
No apology is necessary. I took my time slogging through the statutes too. It wasn't a fun read, or an easy one, and I probably would not have done it if I had not, well, pretty much put myself in a situation where I had to.
Despite my earlier flip reaction that I was reading a solicitation for services, the Minnesota statutes governing first and second degree murder are surprisingly narrow. It hurts to see such callous behavior resulting in death described as third degree anything, but after reading the statutes, this might be the right charge.
I was not expecting to find myself typing this. My initial thoughts that the defendant was charged with third degree murder were much more along the lines of "WTF, third degree?" and "WTF does the evidence that has not been made public yet show?". My imagination was really tilted toward what might be in the coroner's report, or ib the body cam recordings, or in some of the unreleased business surveillance recordings, that led the prosecutors to choose what initially sounds like an offensively low charge.
I think the 3rd degree charge is appropriate by law. A quick verdict and maximum sentence would be a sign of justice served to me. 3rd degree and a plea bargain will let him out after no time at all. Then Trump will pardon him.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 14:23:14 GMT -5
Premeditation is an element of first degree murder, but depending upon individual state laws, other criteria can render a killing first degree murder without premeditation: depravity, during the commission of a felony, etc. So, give the prosecutor a chance to do his or her job and collect the evidence to complete the charges (and hopefully charge the other 3 officers). Did you happen to catch the fact that a couple of the people who posted on this thread looked into Minnesota law?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2020 14:24:18 GMT -5
I think the 3rd degree charge is appropriate by law. A quick verdict and maximum sentence would be a sign of justice served to me. 3rd degree and a plea bargain will let him out after no time at all. Then Trump will pardon him. Yes.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 31, 2020 17:34:37 GMT -5
Hopefully, trump won't be around to do any more pardoning.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on May 31, 2020 18:32:29 GMT -5
Can they pile on a bunch of other charges to increase the time in jail? Don't you guys have a hate crime designation that increases sentancing? Excessive force? Unlawful confinement? Anything
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on May 31, 2020 19:31:10 GMT -5
3rd degree and a plea bargain will let him out after no time at all. Then Trump will pardon him. Yes. No. The President doesn't have the power to pardon state crimes. He's not facing federal charges at this time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 19:37:33 GMT -5
I35 bridge in Minneapolis this evening before the tanker truck plowed through them. I can't believe nobody was hurt. Now there is a huge crowd going through the university campus. I hope it stays peaceful...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 19:40:32 GMT -5
I35 bridge in Minneapolis this evening before the tanker truck plowed through them. I can't believe nobody was hurt. Now there is a huge crowd going through the university campus. I hope it stays peaceful... Wait, say what? A tanker truck plowed through the crowd? UGH!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 19:53:17 GMT -5
I35 bridge in Minneapolis this evening before the tanker truck plowed through them. I can't believe nobody was hurt. Now there is a huge crowd going through the university campus. I hope it stays peaceful... Wait, say what? A tanker truck plowed through the crowd? UGH!!! www.fox9.com/video/689939Not sure that video is showing up. www.fox9.com/video/689939
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 1, 2020 0:46:24 GMT -5
I hear the killer is on suicide watch. Do they do that for all accused murderers, or is he showing signs that he knows he fucked up and he knows how fucked he is?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 1, 2020 1:07:30 GMT -5
I hear the killer is on suicide watch. Do they do that for all accused murderers, or is he showing signs that he knows he fucked up and he knows how fucked he is? If he goes to prison he is going to wish he was dead. Sometimes I think suicide watch is code for making sure no one murders them.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jun 1, 2020 6:21:12 GMT -5
I’m not in a great place currently... but seems to me lots of macho racist assholes become sniveling babies when their entitlement is taken away and they have to live under a system / conditions to which they would have subjected others ...
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