Valuing assets in a divorce

[oped]

Not me... helping a friend. How does one go about valuing assets Tools? Guns? Household stuff? How detailed do you need to get. Its also contentious and whether he is allowed or not, he is denying her access to certain things. I know he's been trying to hid assets, I assume for years. 

What is the process to follow here? I assume Kelly Blue Book and Antique Guides can be used for the cars... ?

[oped]

Also... value you could sell it for? Or value you would have to pay to replace it? 

[NoNamePerson]

Depends. Is he trying to get value on assets he is hiding in case they get found. I figure those could be classified as priceless.

[oped]

Oh. I'm helping HER out. 

[teen persuasion]

Gun, tools, cars, household stuff as assets?

Unless he's a serious antique collector, I wouldn't count any of that as assets. To me, assets to value in a divorce are retirement accounts, bank accounts, taxable investments, etc.

Of course, if the first group is valuable to him, he can have those, while she agrees to the others.

[Miss Tequila]

It sounds like he wants to rack up the attorney’s fees. My divorce was fairly easy as we had separate finances. My investment properties, 401k and bank accounts were mine. The house we lived in (he inherited some money that he used to but it) and his 401k were his. The rest of the stuff we tried to divvy up (washer/dryer, snow blower, smoker, furniture (though I did take all furniture that I personally paid for). It wasn’t worth fighting over small items as the only one that wins doing that is the attorney. I probably didn’t really get half of stuff we bought together but being out of a hell marriage was worth it

Unless you are talking true antiques that are worth big $, tell your friend to negotiate but don’t spend thousands fighting over hundreds.

[NastyWoman]

Hiding assets seems to call for a forensic auditor or someone along those lines, especially if this has been going on for quite a w while. There may be significant value to all the disappeared assets. I really don't know but I read once that judges really, really don't like these shenanigans.

[souldoubt]

Given that he's denying her access to certain things and there's the belief that he's hiding assets she needs to get a forensic accountant.  I'm assuming or hoping she has a lawyer given the way it's playing out and if so she should ask her lawyer if there's a forensic accountant they recommend.  If he wants to be a dick she needs to throw it right back at him and the best way to do that is via the professionals.  In the end the divorce will cost more in legal/other expenses but she needs to protect what is hers and he chose the path they're on.  I know someone that ended up spending about 150K on their divorce but that's because her ex was lying through his teeth and trying to get more money out of her.  It's not like she wanted to spend that but she was more than happy to and in the long run it saved her money.       

[oped]

His business takes in a lot of cash. It did all through their marriage. It 'stopped' about three years ago... he also runs a ton of expenses through his business. Unfortunately I"m not sure what can be done with those things as they aren't legal and I'm not sure what culpability she would have prior to.  I've suggested a forensic accountant. I am not sure if these circumstances make it unwelcome or just challenging for hiring one...  apparently she has a new lawyer. Her last one retired, unfortunately. We are already about a year into this... but her new lawyer is asking for the list and apparently her old one never really did? Maybe good to have a new one. 

There are antique cars... a '31 and '47, and 3 modern cars and 2 trucks... and all vehicles are assets that would need to be split in a divorce if they were marital property... as are tractors and I guess maybe I just live in a place where tools are freaking expensive and large. Yes there are thousands of dollars worth of guns. (Personally interjecting,  my father's estate has those too, and I know some of them are individually listed as to recipients. It maybe be different different places. )   

I'm not sure she's attached to all of that, well one of the old cars that was hers and probably should be considered prior asset which she wants to go to their daughter, but otherwise, I'm not sure... I don't think she should just fail to count those as assets however. 

I've never done this, not sure why she asked me... for some reason I seem to get all her $$ questions.

I guess I could ask my dad for advice... he's done this a lot, lol. She did find an auction house that is helping her. So that is good. 

[NastyWoman]

For the IRS there is something like the innocent spouse concept where she might not be held responsible is she didn't know what he was up to but whether that applies to your friend or not I don't know. Would be worth looking into. Especially if the IRS decides to go after him for some reason. He could end up with the hidden assets while she will have the IRS coming after her.

[Deleted]

I agree that the possible hidden assets and the likelihood of tax evasion are big red flags and they need to be addressed. The IRS is apparently not as lenient as they used to be in classifying someone as an innocent spouse.

As for the "stuff"- how badly does she want out? I gave up a whole lot in the Property Settlement. He'd brought a lot of furniture from his late parents' house into the marriage and he wanted all that plus some we'd acquired together plus 2 sets of china and one of sterling silver that had belonged to his mother. Yeah, OK. I wanted the investments in my name, custody of DS and a fair share of the equity in the marital home. My Ex and his mover came through when I was on-site at a new client. I'd carefully marked whose was whose and he pretty much took what he wanted. I had to go out and buy a TV and DS and I didn't have any couches for a couple of months. I got over it. I'm glad we didn't pay to have everything appraised.

Are there things she'd be willing to give up in return for other household goods, or does she need every spoon, fork and stick of furniture she can get?

[oped]

I don’t think she wants much of any ‘things’ but she wants a significant payout. They have been married for 30+ years. When they got married she had a business. She supported him through school and opening his business. She spent the 10 years before the last two homeschooling their kids, one still in and one finished with college (that one started at 16 and is gainfully employed with the state under a long title at 21...). Anyway... she immediately got her real estate license when the kids started college and is doing ok but is determined not to live out the rest of her life paycheck to paycheck or working forever while he and his new gfriend live it up on what she helped build. Can’t blame her.

Sometimes I do think she should just get out before the it’s catches up with him.

I’m maybe giving too many details of someone else’s life...

[NastyWoman]

May 26, 2020 20:06:22 GMT -5 oped said:

I don’t think she wants much of any ‘things’ but she wants a significant payout. They have been married for 30+ years. When they got married she had a business. She supported him through school and opening his business. She spent the 10 years before the last two homeschooling their kids, one still in and one finished with college (that one started at 16 and is gainfully employed with the state under a long title at 21...). Anyway... she immediately got her real estate license when the kids started college and is doing ok but is determined not to live out the rest of her life paycheck to paycheck or working forever while he and his new gfriend live it up on what she helped build. Can’t blame her.

Sometimes I do think she should just get out before the it’s catches up with him.

I’m maybe giving too many details of someone else’s life...

The "just get out" concept only works if there will not be a significant chance of the IRS coming after him. If he does not have the assets they will come after her!

[Deleted]

May 26, 2020 20:06:22 GMT -5 oped said:

Sometimes I do think she should just get out before it catches up with him.

If she thinks there may have been tax evasion she should make him deal with it now before he and GF spend down assets. The IRS can come after her if they find that fraud occurred during the marriage. If she also ran a business and is now working in real estate, the "Innocent spouse" claim might be harder to prove. I think that it's typically allowed for 1950s-type women who knew little about the real world and just signed whatever Hubby put in front of them.

And, to be fair, the GF should have all the facts, too.

[teen persuasion]

May 26, 2020 20:06:22 GMT -5 oped said:

I don’t think she wants much of any ‘things’ but she wants a significant payout. They have been married for 30+ years. When they got married she had a business. She supported him through school and opening his business. She spent the 10 years before the last two homeschooling their kids, one still in and one finished with college (that one started at 16 and is gainfully employed with the state under a long title at 21...). Anyway... she immediately got her real estate license when the kids started college and is doing ok but is determined not to live out the rest of her life paycheck to paycheck or working forever while he and his new gfriend live it up on what she helped build. Can’t blame her.

Sometimes I do think she should just get out before the it’s catches up with him.

I’m maybe giving too many details of someone else’s life...

Way back when I was college I worked in an office on campus.  The secretary in that office would frequently type up documents for other professors as a side gig (for their side gigs).  Many were from economics professors who were setting out an economic basis for the wife in a divorce - she'd supported the husband while he got some degree which enabled him to make big bucks. As her support enabled the degree, which enabled the high salary, the argument was that she deserved x% of his savings that he could not have earned w/o her early support.

They'd lay the whole thing out in $ figures times growth %, etc., and come up with a big $ bottom line. They were attempting to short circuit the husband's counter argument that he'd earned it all, he deserved it all, she had little earnings and saved none (remember, this was decades ago, and for couples married a few more decades earlier) because the early spending was on his education, and then she had to quit to raise kids/ support his career.

[teen persuasion]

Are there retirement accounts, taxable investment accounts, property? Or is all of "his" value in his business?

It might be hard to extract a payout if there aren't liquid assets to cash out.

[swamp]

You value assets by hiring experts. 

They can either spend all their  money valuing their stuff, or they can come to a reasonable agreement between the two of them.  

[oped]

There won't be a reasonable argument. I have to testify in a hearing that keeps getting put off because he physically harassed his daughter when we were trying to move out of the house. He finally stopped passively aggressively stalking my friend at that point because she got a PFA.  He is not a reasonable person. This is not going to ever be solved reasonably, unfortunately.  He is definitely trying to wear her down though. 

They won't spend all of their money valuing stuff. There is a lot of money and property. There are retirement accounts, and investment accounts, and 529 plans he didn't use for college (? still not sure why...) a house and subdivision with at least 7 building lots, the business building, rental properties...  she didn't ask me about valuing those things though. I assume she realized a professional would be necessary.  I guess the same should just have been said for anything she felt held enough value to list. 
 

[Deleted]

May 27, 2020 9:40:21 GMT -5 oped said:

 

In that case I'd let him keep the darn guns- and maybe the cars.  

[Deleted]

May 27, 2020 9:40:21 GMT -5 oped said:

There is a lot of money and property. There are retirement accounts, and investment accounts, and 529 plans he didn't use for college (? still not sure why...) a house and subdivision with at least 7 building lots, the business building, rental properties...  she didn't ask me about valuing those things though. I assume she realized a professional would be necessary.  I guess the same should just have been said for anything she felt held enough value to list. 
 

In that case I'd let him keep the darn guns- and maybe the cars.  Not worth it in the grand scheme of things.

He sounds like a real piece of work- and yet he's found a GF.  Reminds me of a Japanese saying:  Two tears met in a brook.  One said, "I am the tear of the woman who lost her love".  The other replied, "And I am the tear of the woman who found him".

[swamp]

May 27, 2020 9:40:21 GMT -5 oped said:

There won't be a reasonable argument. I have to testify in a hearing that keeps getting put off because he physically harassed his daughter when we were trying to move out of the house. He finally stopped passively aggressively stalking my friend at that point because she got a PFA.  He is not a reasonable person. This is not going to ever be solved reasonably, unfortunately.  He is definitely trying to wear her down though. 

They won't spend all of their money valuing stuff. There is a lot of money and property. There are retirement accounts, and investment accounts, and 529 plans he didn't use for college (? still not sure why...) a house and subdivision with at least 7 building lots, the business building, rental properties...  she didn't ask me about valuing those things though. I assume she realized a professional would be necessary.  I guess the same should just have been said for anything she felt held enough value to list. 
 

They will when the court orders it.  

[swamp]

I'd tell him to keep the guns, tools, cars, etc. and focus on the cash and land.   

[oped]

May 27, 2020 10:04:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

I'd tell him to keep the guns, tools, cars, etc. and focus on the cash and land.   

She doesn’t want them. She wants half the value. Is it typical to just leave a potential couple hundred thousand off the valuation of the estate because the items aren’t land or cash?

[Deleted]

I would assume the value is what you could get selling them, not replacement.  I never messed with any of that in either divorce, but we didn't have hundreds of thousands in stuff and my ex's were reasonable (well, Ex 2.0 was in jail and had to sign whatever I had written to get out).  We just did the...I get this car, you get that one, I get the camper, you get the boat...the only things specified in the divorce were the house and retirement accounts.

If she wants to go after half the value and he's not cooperating there's not much to do but fight it out in court and pay lawyers a crap ton.  How much does she just want out? 

[souldoubt]

May 27, 2020 10:41:35 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

We just did the...I get this car, you get that one, I get the camper, you get the boat...the only things specified in the divorce were the house and retirement accounts.

I would think what you did is the best way to go if it's actually amicable and one person doesn't care if in the end the $ value isn't exactly equal. 

They may not want to spend money valuing assets but his actions say otherwise.  As MPL said unless she has a dollar amount in mind that he's going to agree to I don't see how there's any easy way this plays out with the course it's on especially when there's the belief he's hiding assets.  That said I'm anything but a lawyer.  Only advice I would give based on contentious divorces I've seen others go through is if that's the route it's on have a lawyer who is a pit bull so to speak.

[swamp]

May 27, 2020 10:30:11 GMT -5 oped said:

May 27, 2020 10:04:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

I'd tell him to keep the guns, tools, cars, etc. and focus on the cash and land.   

She doesn’t want them. She wants half the value. Is it typical to just leave a potential couple hundred thousand off the valuation of the estate because the items aren’t land or cash?

Just because he bought the tools for a couple hundred thousand doesn't mean they are worth that now. 

What does she want more?  Away from him to or keep fighting?   

I look at it as I can always make more money or get more stuff.     

[oped]

Stay at home the next decade... will you be saying the same thing at the end of that? At that age? With that gap? 

[swamp]

May 27, 2020 9:40:21 GMT -5 oped said:

There won't be a reasonable argument. I have to testify in a hearing that keeps getting put off because he physically harassed his daughter when we were trying to move out of the house. He finally stopped passively aggressively stalking my friend at that point because she got a PFA.  He is not a reasonable person. This is not going to ever be solved reasonably, unfortunately.  He is definitely trying to wear her down though. 

They won't spend all of their money valuing stuff. There is a lot of money and property. There are retirement accounts, and investment accounts, and 529 plans he didn't use for college (? still not sure why...) a house and subdivision with at least 7 building lots, the business building, rental properties...  she didn't ask me about valuing those things though. I assume she realized a professional would be necessary.  I guess the same should just have been said for anything she felt held enough value to list. 
 

If she takes 1/2 of what you're listing, she'll be fine.   

Hire an appraiser for the real estate, divide the other accounts, and get on with her life.  

[swamp]

May 27, 2020 11:52:02 GMT -5 oped said:

Stay at home the next decade... will you be saying the same thing at the end of that? At that age? With that gap? 

they have liquid assets and real estate that is easy to value.  focus on that.  

[Tiny]

May 27, 2020 10:30:11 GMT -5 oped said:

May 27, 2020 10:04:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

I'd tell him to keep the guns, tools, cars, etc. and focus on the cash and land.   

She doesn’t want them. She wants half the value. Is it typical to just leave a potential couple hundred thousand off the valuation of the estate because the items aren’t land or cash?

He's got $200,000 in tools, cars, guns, and other "stuff"?   Holy shite!    If that's the amount he paid for the stuff - I'd imagine it's got a resale value of 1/2 that (even if he paid top dollar for a "collectible" vehicle - he probably wouldn't get that much in resale value).   And it's all outside the business and the land and not related to the house (I can imagine 10K worth of tractors and other fancy machinery/stuff to maintain a house and ginormous yard) 


What percent of the total pot  is  the tools, cars, guns, and other stuff?    I would imagine houses/land/business are worth a heck of alot more than the "stuff".     

ADDED:  I'd let him have the "toys" - he and his GF can have the depreciating assets that cost money to maintain/secure.