pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,365
|
Post by pulmonarymd on May 9, 2020 15:43:48 GMT -5
This is no doubt a difficult discussion. But if we are to ever get healthcare costs under control, we need to have it. People living in a nursing home, demented, and on a ventilator soak up a lot of resources. They will be repeatedly admitted to the hospital for pneumonia, treated aggressively, and returned to the nursing home to just slowly decline further, with no hope of recovery. Significant sums of money are spent in these cases, and it has indirect consequences to everyone’s health. Unfortunately, Manet people equate a heartbeat to being alive. There are clearly things we do that are expensive with very little value. We could stop doing those, save money, and possibly improve our health metrics. Many other situations are more difficult, but there are things we do that we should not.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on May 9, 2020 16:17:09 GMT -5
Then the family should pay for it. It wasn't that many years ago that breast cancer was an automatic death sentence. I had several friends die of it in their 30s and 40s. Fast forward and medical advances have allowed my 60-something year old friends to make the 10-year mark and keep going. But even if they were sure to die in their 70s because no one made the 10 year mark, isn't it worth it to them? Isn't even a year or two worth it to them? I am not talking about someone in a coma or vegetative state, I'm not saying we should give liver transplants to alcoholics and drug users whose own abuse created their problems. But this is very personal to me. At what point should society have given up on my husband? In the 10-years he lived here, he had multiple stents put in, an abdominal aortic bypass, blood poisoning, c-diff, a heart attack, prostate reduction, cataract removal procedures multiple times (they partially returned), back surgery to fuse some of his vertebrae, removal/replacement of pacemaker/defibrillator, artificial valve replacement, dozens of scopes for internal bleeding with some surgeries interspersed, etc. Factor in all the doctors' visits before, following-up, further follow-ups, routine visits, and medicines . . . Well, he was obviously a million dollar man! Please do not answer my question above. Just understand that he had a good ten years up until the last six months. And very little was actually done during those last six months. He went to the ER several times and was hospitalized several times, but it was primarily stabilization. And even then it was only the last three weeks that he became basically bed-ridden. Maybe congestive heart failure is just different. Lots of people have it, and you don't even know. They are slowly dying so that every procedure helps slow that process and allowed them a decent quality of life. But it is expensive primarily because it isn't quick as many cancers are. How on earth do we as a society decide? That question you can choose to answer. ETA: I was a caregiver, @shastasnewlife. Just me, myself, and I. No help from friends and family. No respite care. It was only six months, and they were hard six months. But it was only bad those last three weeks after he went on hospice. I would never comment on such a personal situation :-) Here’s the thing-I don’t know where the line is. Last summer my mom was in the ER and diagnosed with congestive heart failure. Talk about a punch in the gut. At the time, she was 70 with mild dementia, uncontrolled diabetes, Afib and a few other things that I’m Forgetting. Her family doctor had a heart-to-heart with me and told me her odds were not good. I was her POA for medical and I had to make the decision whether heroic measures would be made. My decision was to drain the lungs (a lot of fluid) and put in a pacemaker. Beyond that, no heroic measures. That was in part because her family doctor told me that with her dementia she would live out her years in a nursing home. He essentially convinced me. She spend 3 weeks in the hospital and other than some tweaking to her meds, she is quite stable 10 months later. She did have to get therapy in a personal care home setting, too, before coming home. She is still going strong, still not in a nursing home (when her husband works, we pay someone to be with her). I think the doctor was too quick to give up on her. But I’m speaking as the daughter. She could die tomorrow and then we might say that xx amount of dollars wasn’t worth it to keep her alive for 10 or 11 months. She is on medication and a strict diet. I don’t have the answer but if we want to reign in costs, these are decisions that are going to have to be addressed.
|
|
jelloshots4all
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 14, 2013 15:54:13 GMT -5
Posts: 4,642
|
Post by jelloshots4all on May 9, 2020 16:20:23 GMT -5
Just saw that Nashville is reopening at 50% on Monday. Someone that lives their posted that Nashville is no way ready to re-open. Sounds like a bad idea to me.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,369
|
Post by thyme4change on May 9, 2020 18:15:01 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no. True, but our individual decisions are heavily influenced by how our society talks about things, and what we collectively believe. If we truly believed in peaceful passing and had healthy discussion around death, people might accept the 100% fact that they will die. But, we can't even begin to have that conversation because we are winners and if you die, you lost. We don't like losers. We don't want to be losers. If cancer or old age kills us, we failed. We failed to fight hard enough. We failed to find the right treatment or the right drug. So, instead of feeling like you have options and can own your life, you are pre-conditioned to believe you should just keep trying - no matter what.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,431
|
Post by billisonboard on May 9, 2020 18:42:25 GMT -5
I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no. True, but our individual decisions are heavily influenced by how our society talks about things, and what we collectively believe. If we truly believed in peaceful passing and had healthy discussion around death, people might accept the 100% fact that they will die. But, we can't even begin to have that conversation because we are winners and if you die, you lost. We don't like losers. We don't want to be losers. If cancer or old age kills us, we failed. We failed to fight hard enough. We failed to find the right treatment or the right drug. So, instead of feeling like you have options and can own your life, you are pre-conditioned to believe you should just keep trying - no matter what. Supporting assisted suicide by creating legal procedures to carry it out is an important thing society can use to promote a quality of life perspective.
|
|
NastyWoman
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 20:50:37 GMT -5
Posts: 14,310
Member is Online
|
Post by NastyWoman on May 9, 2020 22:13:14 GMT -5
True, but our individual decisions are heavily influenced by how our society talks about things, and what we collectively believe. If we truly believed in peaceful passing and had healthy discussion around death, people might accept the 100% fact that they will die. But, we can't even begin to have that conversation because we are winners and if you die, you lost. We don't like losers. We don't want to be losers. If cancer or old age kills us, we failed. We failed to fight hard enough. We failed to find the right treatment or the right drug. So, instead of feeling like you have options and can own your life, you are pre-conditioned to believe you should just keep trying - no matter what. Supporting assisted suicide by creating legal procedures to carry it out is an important thing society can use to promote a quality of life perspective. One of the many factors in deciding whether I go or stay in the US
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 1:41:10 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 7:51:40 GMT -5
If we truly believed in peaceful passing and had healthy discussion around death, people might accept the 100% fact that they will die. But, we can't even begin to have that conversation because we are winners and if you die, you lost. We don't like losers. We don't want to be losers. If cancer or old age kills us, we failed. We failed to fight hard enough. We failed to find the right treatment or the right drug. So, instead of feeling like you have options and can own your life, you are pre-conditioned to believe you should just keep trying - no matter what. Totally agreed, and I wonder if some of this has to do with whether or not you believe in an afterlife. Maybe people fight more if they see death as the end of their existence. Another book recommendation: Joyce Maynard's "The Best of Us". She's an excellent writer and a bit unconventional; she moved in with the writer JD Salinger, who was 34 years older, after her freshman year at Yale. In 2013 she married her second husband, who developed pancreatic cancer soon after. She flew into Tiger Wife mode. She got him into every clinical trial, flew him from CA to NYC because that was the location of the best doctor for the Whipple procedure, the "Hail Mary" for pancreatic cancer patients (unsuccessful), and spent massive amounts of their own funds on alternative treatments. He died after they'd been married only 3 years. It makes for good reading but you wonder if their last year together might have been higher quality with just palliative care.
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,365
|
Post by pulmonarymd on May 10, 2020 8:40:48 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience.
Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system
|
|
oped
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 20, 2018 20:49:12 GMT -5
Posts: 4,676
|
Post by oped on May 10, 2020 8:44:21 GMT -5
The newer Michael Pollen on psychedelics was very interesting all around but especially on the use of controlled psychedelic therapy in terminal situations.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,107
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on May 10, 2020 8:50:37 GMT -5
As hard as it was to watch, I am glad that my mother was able to make her own informed decision to not have open heart surgery at age 90, while in critical condition, that had a 50-50 chance of saving her life. The recovery that was described was something she probably could not have done and she would have ended up in a nursing home, which she did not want.
Instead, she chose to enter hospice care. It was her signature on the DNR, etc. and all of the hospice paperwork. Hospice helped first helped improve her quality of life and then when the end was near, helped her pass as painlessly as possible.
It was much more difficult dealing with dad, who had dementia and was not capable of making his own decisions. However, after he was hospitalized when he lost his vision, we found he had signed a DNR at the time mom was in the hospital and it was on file. When it came time to release him from the hospital, they would only release him to a nursing home or with 24 hour care. Thankfully for his sake, he lasted about 3 weeks.
I am thankful that we never had to make decisions about heroic measures. I don't want any for myself. I've told my medical POA if I get corona virus, do not put me on a ventilator.
|
|
Ava
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 30, 2011 12:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 4,168
|
Post by Ava on May 10, 2020 11:27:14 GMT -5
My mother has told my brother and I repeatedly she doesn't want any heroic measures to save her life just to live as a vegetable.
Mentally, we both know what to do when the time comes, hopefully many many years from now as she's of sound mind and physically fit.
She also wants to be cremated and her remains be dispersed in the ocean. We are very clear about her wants. I can see either of us being emotionally unable to make the decision with no return, like disconnect a ventilator or whatever needs to be done. But, at the same time, since there are two of us and we know exactly her wishes, I'm sure at least one of us will go ahead. I would do it if he can't, it would be a horrific situation for me, but I would do it.
I guess it's relatively easier for me. Where I come from, quality of life is heavily measured before proceeding with any surgery or life-saving decision. I'm used to it. One of my cousins had a baby who could only live if attached to a ventilator, and even then he wouldn't make it past the first year mark. The doctors gave the parents time to come to terms with this, but then started pushing to disconnect the baby. Everybody told them to disconnect and they continued to refuse. After a couple of weeks the doctors signed the order to disconnect. That is completely legal back home.
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,744
|
Post by jerseygirl on May 10, 2020 11:45:42 GMT -5
Sister was disabled from birth deaf cerebral palsy and learning challenged. She developed heart failure and pulmonary problems and was on oxygen full time in last year of her life. We were able to get her a portable oxygen concentrator so she could go to movies dinner see family. Last fall she got much weaker fell and took her to hospital as thought she broke her hip. She was quite clear not wanting to have very painful arterial blood draws or put on ventilator. Her doctors were very kind and used high flow oxygen that enabled her to go home for a short time before passing at home. When the EMTs brought her home she had a big smile and was clapping, asked for coffee but passed away in about 3 hours. She was so smart and funny and knew exactly what she wanted and was very clear refusing in hospital By gestures. Very kind doctors and nurses
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,369
|
Post by thyme4change on May 10, 2020 12:17:56 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience. Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system It is possible that people who claim to be religious have doubts. Or, they have doubts that they were "good enough", so they may want a little longer to please god as insurance they will make it to heaven. Also, the whole 'gift of life' deal, where suicide will put you immediately into hell, so is refusing treatment the same as suicide? Religion can give some really fucked up messages.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on May 10, 2020 21:41:29 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience. Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system It is possible that people who claim to be religious have doubts. Or, they have doubts that they were "good enough", so they may want a little longer to please god as insurance they will make it to heaven. Also, the whole 'gift of life' deal, where suicide will put you immediately into hell, so is refusing treatment the same as suicide? Religion can give some really fucked up messages. Or some people, religious or not, are just very attached to their old people and don't want them to go. If my father had survived his third round of cancer, he would have been the first person on the planet to survive that type an stage. I knew from the get go that an unathletic office worker wouldn't be the first person to beat the cancer. It didn't stop my mom from driving him all over the country for treatment. Faith had nothing to do with it. He was the love of her life, and she didn't want to loose him. In the end, the treatments gave him an extra 5 months.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on May 11, 2020 8:19:09 GMT -5
Just saw that Nashville is reopening at 50% on Monday. Someone that lives their posted that Nashville is no way ready to re-open. Sounds like a bad idea to me. 1. How would this person know all of Nashville well enough to make that decision? I'm assuming "lives there" is not code for "is a high level government official with tons of information on the actual circumstances". 2. Is their idea of "ready to re-open" the same as the overall strategy? There are still a lot of people who seem to think "ready to re-open" means "ready to prevent everyone from getting the virus" when it's closer to "medical capacity to treat people who get the virus".
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on May 11, 2020 8:23:34 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience.
Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system If I believed in an afterlife, which I don't...I'd find the idea of death terrifying. They say things like marriage, divorce, etc are super stressful events in life...how about an event that determines whether you live in absolute bliss or horrible torment for the rest of eternity? Christian afterlife is so extremely polarized I'm not sure I can imagine anything more stressful.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,431
|
Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 8:45:16 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience.
Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system If I believed in an afterlife, which I don't...I'd find the idea of death terrifying. They say things like marriage, divorce, etc are super stressful events in life...how about an event that determines whether you live in absolute bliss or horrible torment for the rest of eternity? Christian afterlife is so extremely polarized I'm not sure I can imagine anything more stressful. Can we please stop posting religious discussions in places other than Religious Discussions? Sorry, couldn't resist.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,358
|
Post by movingforward on May 11, 2020 9:09:19 GMT -5
Just saw that Nashville is reopening at 50% on Monday. Someone that lives their posted that Nashville is no way ready to re-open. Sounds like a bad idea to me. 1. How would this person know all of Nashville well enough to make that decision? I'm assuming "lives there" is not code for "is a high level government official with tons of information on the actual circumstances". 2. Is their idea of "ready to re-open" the same as the overall strategy? There are still a lot of people who seem to think "ready to re-open" means "ready to prevent everyone from getting the virus" when it's closer to "medical capacity to treat people who get the virus". The other thing people are neglecting to consider are all those that have recovered from the virus. A headline just flashed on my home page stating that my state is "opening" with 37,000+ cases, which is actually false. That is how many cases we HAVE had, but more than half of those cases have recovered so we currently have around 15,000 active cases. The media refuses to talk about how many cases are actually active right now. They show the total number of cases, which increasingly makes people freak out.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,431
|
Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 9:24:01 GMT -5
1. How would this person know all of Nashville well enough to make that decision? I'm assuming "lives there" is not code for "is a high level government official with tons of information on the actual circumstances". 2. Is their idea of "ready to re-open" the same as the overall strategy? There are still a lot of people who seem to think "ready to re-open" means "ready to prevent everyone from getting the virus" when it's closer to "medical capacity to treat people who get the virus". The other thing people are neglecting to consider are all those that have recovered from the virus. A headline just flashed on my home page stating that my state is "opening" with 37,000+ cases, which is actually false. That is how many cases we HAVE had, but more than half of those cases have recovered so we currently have around 15,000 active cases. The media refuses to talk about how many cases are actually active right now. They show the total number of cases, which increasingly makes people freak out. Any number used is bullshit. Due to a lack of testing, no one has the data to know how many people are currently at a stage they could infect others. So just pick number that supports your agenda
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 1:41:10 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 9:32:36 GMT -5
When Georgia started opening on April 24, there were 22,000+ cases; today it's 33,833. There were 900 deaths; today it's 1405 deaths. Yet every day the governor says the count is going down even though yesterday morning it was at 32,960 and last night at 33,454; four more deaths.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,358
|
Post by movingforward on May 11, 2020 9:53:18 GMT -5
The other thing people are neglecting to consider are all those that have recovered from the virus. A headline just flashed on my home page stating that my state is "opening" with 37,000+ cases, which is actually false. That is how many cases we HAVE had, but more than half of those cases have recovered so we currently have around 15,000 active cases. The media refuses to talk about how many cases are actually active right now. They show the total number of cases, which increasingly makes people freak out. Any number used is bullshit. Due to a lack of testing, no one has the data to know how many people are currently at a stage they could infect others. So just pick number that supports your agenda I agree that no data is REALLY going to be accurate but if you are going to splash a headline stating we are opening with over 37,000 cases then you should at least attempt to use the data that IS available. The data states we have around 15,000 ACTIVE cases. To say that we are reopening with more than 37,000 cases is just a lie.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on May 11, 2020 10:04:01 GMT -5
When Georgia started opening on April 24, there were 22,000+ cases; today it's 33,833. There were 900 deaths; today it's 1405 deaths. Yet every day the governor says the count is going down even though yesterday morning it was at 32,960 and last night at 33,454; four more deaths.When they say the "count is going down", I'm guessing they are talking about "new" cases are on the decline. The total number of people in the state who have been diagnosed at some point with COVID should never go down. People aren't getting undiagnosed as having never had it. No matter how great things might get someday, the count is never going to go down if you're talking total confirmed cases.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on May 11, 2020 10:13:01 GMT -5
Any number used is bullshit. Due to a lack of testing, no one has the data to know how many people are currently at a stage they could infect others. So just pick number that supports your agenda I agree that no data is REALLY going to be accurate but if you are going to splash a headline stating we are opening with over 37,000 cases then you should at least attempt to use the data that IS available. The data states we have around 15,000 ACTIVE cases. To say that we are reopening with more than 37,000 cases is just a lie. I don't know that it's a "lie"...like most things like this it's true but just has a horribly stupid definition/naming convention. In this case..."cases" or "confirmed cases" counts total people who have been diagnosed...but is labeled as "cases", without specificity, in a way that doesn't accurately reflect how things are said in the English language. For example: Nobody says "I have a case of indigestion" to mean "I have at one point in my life had indigestion even though I don't have it now". I'm not sure if it's stupidity or being intentionally deceptive when someone decided to label something "cases", and then follows that up with "well that's different than ACTIVE cases". Great news everyone, my wife is pregnant...well...she's not ACTIVELY pregnant, but she was pregnant previously in her life.
|
|
apple 2
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 5, 2017 14:49:20 GMT -5
Posts: 212
|
Post by apple 2 on May 11, 2020 10:31:25 GMT -5
When Georgia started opening on April 24, there were 22,000+ cases; today it's 33,833. There were 900 deaths; today it's 1405 deaths. Yet every day the governor says the count is going down even though yesterday morning it was at 32,960 and last night at 33,454; four more deaths.When they say the "count is going down", I'm guessing they are talking about "new" cases are on the decline. The total number of people in the state who have been diagnosed at some point with COVID should never go down. People aren't getting undiagnosed as having never had it. No matter how great things might get someday, the count is never going to go down if you're talking total confirmed cases. Its called putting a spin on facts. Obviously the death count is the one that matters.
|
|
lynnerself
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 3, 2011 11:42:29 GMT -5
Posts: 4,166
|
Post by lynnerself on May 11, 2020 10:44:20 GMT -5
Our state is using hospitalizations. One of the 7 criteria for counties to open is having the hospitalizations go down for 2 weeks. (Or have less than 5 ever) Each county needs to present a plan for approval. I think about 20 counties have so far. Mostly the very rural ones. But also the one where almost all the cases were at one Veterans home a month ago. If you are at all interested, here are our prerequisites: It's going to be awhile until the large metro areas get open. Mostly due to the contact tracing requirement. Unfortunately they are also the heart of the economy.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,361
|
Post by Tiny on May 11, 2020 12:09:15 GMT -5
In my experience, faith has little to do with how people die. I have had families that claimed to be deeply religious keep their relatives alive and being treated aggressively beyond the point were any meaningful chance of recovery was possible. I have seen atheist have peaceful deaths. Intuitively, it would make sense that if you believe in an afterlife, you would be more accepting of the end. It isn’t true in my experience. Better access to good palliative care and hospice would help with dying, and even decrease the need for assisted suicide. Again, a problem with our healthcare system It is possible that people who claim to be religious have doubts. Or, they have doubts that they were "good enough", so they may want a little longer to please god as insurance they will make it to heaven. Also, the whole 'gift of life' deal, where suicide will put you immediately into hell, so is refusing treatment the same as suicide? Religion can give some really fucked up messages. This is just an addition - not a reply to Thyme. For the family/loved ones - it might be the fear that they have "killed" their love one by saying no to an aggressive treatment (when the chance for a meaningful recovery looks bleak). There's a religious admonishment to not "murder/kill" other people. It's not just the suicide side of it. I have heard that fear (of "killing" their loved one) put into words by friends and relatives. Even when the ill/sick/dying person has a DNR and has voiced "no heroic efforts" or some other words to the effect: "I'm ok with dying". If they are asked/pressured by the hospital/doctor/who ever about overriding that DNR/wishes of the loved one - they may opt to not "kill" their loved one by going ahead with their loved one's wishes/request. It's complicated.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 18, 2024 1:41:10 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 12:44:01 GMT -5
A headline just flashed on my home page stating that my state is "opening" with 37,000+ cases, which is actually false. That is how many cases we HAVE had, but more than half of those cases have recovered so we currently have around 15,000 active cases. The media refuses to talk about how many cases are actually active right now. They show the total number of cases, which increasingly makes people freak out. As of today, 79% of cases in the US were NOT classified as ending in death or recovery. It's really hard to guess how many of that 79% are still active. Lags in reporting, people recovering at home and not getting into the statistics, sadly, people dying at home and not yet discovered. Sounds like your state is doing a better job of tracking recoveries, which just goes to show how fuzzy the numbers are. My Diocese put out guidelines saying that churches could re-open after 14 days of decreases in the number of cases in the vicinity. Ummmm, no, not gonna happen. I verified with my priest that the intent was steady decreases in the number of NEW cases and even that's almost impossible- we're doing more testing, for one thing, and if those tests are deployed in a high-risk place such as a nursing home you're going to have a spike that doesn't really reflect and increase in risk for someone in a church pew. So, I'm just collecting some reasonable metrics, tracking any news items of spikes due to a nursing home or similar facility, and collecting them for 3 areas- our metro area, the county the church is in (only 69 cases so far) and a large, relatively prosperous county on the other side of the state line where many of our members live. I'll figure out what to do with them after I have a couple of weeks' worth of data. Slightly scary news from the German podcast this AM: they started opening up a couple of weeks ago and for the second straight day the transmission rate has increased- it's now at an average of 1.13 people being infected by each person who has COVID-19. It really needs to be below 1.00 to get it under control.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,358
|
Post by movingforward on May 11, 2020 12:49:25 GMT -5
A headline just flashed on my home page stating that my state is "opening" with 37,000+ cases, which is actually false. That is how many cases we HAVE had, but more than half of those cases have recovered so we currently have around 15,000 active cases. The media refuses to talk about how many cases are actually active right now. They show the total number of cases, which increasingly makes people freak out. As of today, 79% of cases in the US were NOT classified as ending in death or recovery. It's really hard to guess how many of that 79% are still active. Lags in reporting, people recovering at home and not getting into the statistics, sadly, people dying at home and not yet discovered. Sounds like your state is doing a better job of tracking recoveries, which just goes to show how fuzzy the numbers are. My Diocese put out guidelines saying that churches could re-open after 14 days of decreases in the number of cases in the vicinity. Ummmm, no, not gonna happen. I verified with my priest that the intent was steady decreases in the number of NEW cases and even that's almost impossible- we're doing more testing, for one thing, and if those tests are deployed in a high-risk place such as a nursing home you're going to have a spike that doesn't really reflect and increase in risk for someone in a church pew. So, I'm just collecting some reasonable metrics, tracking any news items of spikes due to a nursing home or similar facility, and collecting them for 3 areas- our metro area, the county the church is in (only 69 cases so far) and a large, relatively prosperous county on the other side of the state line where many of our members live. I'll figure out what to do with them after I have a couple of weeks' worth of data. Slightly scary news from the German podcast this AM: they started opening up a couple of weeks ago and for the second straight day the transmission rate has increased- it's now at an average of 1.13 people being infected by each person who has COVID-19. It really needs to be below 1.00 to get it under control. Wasn't it originally an average of 3 people being infected by each positive person? I can't remember...1.13 doesn't sound horrible to me but I agree it could definitely be better. I think the flu is 1 person per infected individual. I wish everyone in the US could take the antibodies test, especially since they are now saying the virus was probably here much earlier than originally thought.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,431
|
Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 13:08:40 GMT -5
I agree that no data is REALLY going to be accurate but if you are going to splash a headline stating we are opening with over 37,000 cases then you should at least attempt to use the data that IS available. The data states we have around 15,000 ACTIVE cases. To say that we are reopening with more than 37,000 cases is just a lie. I don't know that it's a "lie"...like most things like this it's true but just has a horribly stupid definition/naming convention. In this case..."cases" or "confirmed cases" counts total people who have been diagnosed...but is labeled as "cases", without specificity, in a way that doesn't accurately reflect how things are said in the English language. For example: Nobody says "I have a case of indigestion" to mean "I have at one point in my life had indigestion even though I don't have it now". I'm not sure if it's stupidity or being intentionally deceptive when someone decided to label something "cases", and then follows that up with "well that's different than ACTIVE cases". Great news everyone, my wife is pregnant...well...she's not ACTIVELY pregnant, but she was pregnant previously in her life. It would also be helpful as we rip into "them" to have more than just "A headline just flashed on my home page".
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,369
|
Post by thyme4change on May 11, 2020 13:19:45 GMT -5
It is possible that people who claim to be religious have doubts. Or, they have doubts that they were "good enough", so they may want a little longer to please god as insurance they will make it to heaven. Also, the whole 'gift of life' deal, where suicide will put you immediately into hell, so is refusing treatment the same as suicide? Religion can give some really fucked up messages. This is just an addition - not a reply to Thyme. For the family/loved ones - it might be the fear that they have "killed" their love one by saying no to an aggressive treatment (when the chance for a meaningful recovery looks bleak). There's a religious admonishment to not "murder/kill" other people. It's not just the suicide side of it. I have heard that fear (of "killing" their loved one) put into words by friends and relatives. Even when the ill/sick/dying person has a DNR and has voiced "no heroic efforts" or some other words to the effect: "I'm ok with dying". If they are asked/pressured by the hospital/doctor/who ever about overriding that DNR/wishes of the loved one - they may opt to not "kill" their loved one by going ahead with their loved one's wishes/request. It's complicated. During the whole Terry Shivo thing, I remember an interview with an ethics specialist. When asked why this doesn't happen more often, she said that it probably happens 75% of the time. She said that someone wants to follow the patient's wishes, but one or more family members protest, and the person with the MPOA doesn't want to be the one that "killed Grandma". So they back down and continue treatment. It stuck with me because my parents have made me MPOA and said specifically it was because I was the only one who would pull the plug, as my sisters are too sentimental and sensitive. My Mom would always say that I was going to kill her, and now she has made sure of it. I hope my sister doesn't give me grief when it comes time to make the decision. It won't be easy for me, even if I absolutely believe it is the correct thing to do. I can totally understand why people would chicken out.
|
|