billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 8, 2020 10:12:15 GMT -5
Got an interesting email from my 80 some year old father a couple years now. He was informing us he was getting some type of surgery. He went to great lengths to justify the expense of doing it. I wondered at the time if he was trying to convince us or himself.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 8, 2020 10:26:36 GMT -5
NJ governor just extended lock down to June 6. About half of 8549 deaths were in nursing homes. 308 deaths yesterday but definitely trending down. Both nyc and nj have large %of deaths in care facilities. Both states are ‘investigating ‘ reasons. Cuomo apparently back in March agreed with policy if elder from nursing home tested positive to send back to nursing home. Why? Could have sent them to Navy ship or Javits center but sent back to further infect vulnerable people. Disgraceful also didn’t supply PPE to nursing homes Lots of people hurt by sickness and also lack of jobs. Very difficult and anxious time and who know what summer and fall will bring? More of same probably Most people are complying with masks and distancing I don't believe the Javits or Navy ship were available in March. He couldn't send them there. Also Cuomo was begging for PPE as NY did not have enough. If a Republican governor had been this stupid you would never be giving him a pass like this. Not everybody was stupid enough to knowingly put highly infectious people in the middle of a crowded care facility full of vulnerable people, and staffed by people who aren’t trained to deal with this.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 8, 2020 10:58:29 GMT -5
I don't believe the Javits or Navy ship were available in March. He couldn't send them there. Also Cuomo was begging for PPE as NY did not have enough. If a Republican governor had been this stupid you would never be giving him a pass like this. Not everybody was stupid enough to knowingly put highly infectious people in the middle of a crowded care facility full of vulnerable people, and staffed by people who aren’t trained to deal with this. And your solution as to what to do with the patients when the hospitals were full would have been what. They needed to move them out of the hospital. The original plan as outlined by both NY and Washington was for there to be no positive patients in either Javits or the ship. That did not work to well. We were unprepared for this is numerous ways. Isn't the first and foremost responsibility of the federal government to protect us from outside threats? I am in the northeast and am quite aware of all the challenges that are and were present in the tristate area.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 11:47:03 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. A woman I met who worked for SS Disability said that many relatives wanted to keep loved ones alive at all costs because their SS payments would stop at their death.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 8, 2020 12:32:09 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. A woman I met who worked for SS Disability said that many relatives wanted to keep loved ones alive at all costs because their SS payments would stop at their death. Isn't love grand? Also, living rent free in the house, and concerned siblings would want to sell, and since they aren't working, they couldn't afford anywhere else, and other assorted financial benefits. Not sure why that continues when they are admitted to the nursing home, since once they are on Medicaid, the home gets the check.
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on May 8, 2020 12:33:41 GMT -5
Trump said today on Fox that Governors aren't reopening to hurt him. All about him. Be damned to everyone else!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 8, 2020 12:38:56 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. A woman I met who worked for SS Disability said that many relatives wanted to keep loved ones alive at all costs because their SS payments would stop at their death. Yikes! I've read a lot about people hurrying the death along to get inheritances. Also Yikes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 13:58:01 GMT -5
Trump said today on Fox that Governors aren't reopening to hurt him. All about him. Be damned to everyone else! Yes, and his followers are just the same. Screw everyone else's health.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 8, 2020 14:38:54 GMT -5
Trump said today on Fox that Governors aren't reopening to hurt him. All about him. Be damned to everyone else! He probably thinks 70,000 Americans died in order to hurt him
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 8, 2020 15:16:17 GMT -5
Trump said today on Fox that Governors aren't reopening to hurt him. All about him. Be damned to everyone else! He probably thinks 70,000 Americans died in order to hurt him They were all on their last legs anyway, so it is no a big deal
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 8, 2020 17:00:38 GMT -5
A woman I met who worked for SS Disability said that many relatives wanted to keep loved ones alive at all costs because their SS payments would stop at their death. Yikes! I've read a lot about people hurrying the death along to get inheritances. Also Yikes. One of the aides at my mom's lawyer's office suggested not feeding her. I told her that would be unethical. (In my mother's post-massive-stroke state, the suggestion probably wasn't as horrible as it might seem at first glance, but it still bugs me 2 years later.)
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 8, 2020 17:05:34 GMT -5
Yikes! I've read a lot about people hurrying the death along to get inheritances. Also Yikes. One of the aides at my mom's lawyer's office suggested not feeding her. I told her that would be unethical. (In my mother's post-massive-stroke state, the suggestion probably wasn't as horrible as it might seem at first glance, but it still bugs me 2 years later.) It’s that type of thinking that gets is to situations we can regret. Totally reasonable not to put a feeding tube in. There are all kinds of poor choices, none are good, so you have to try to make the least bad. But there are studies in the use of feeding tubes in Alzheimer’s that show they are not effective if you look at a bunch of outcomes
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 8, 2020 17:12:07 GMT -5
One of the aides at my mom's lawyer's office suggested not feeding her. I told her that would be unethical. (In my mother's post-massive-stroke state, the suggestion probably wasn't as horrible as it might seem at first glance, but it still bugs me 2 years later.) It’s that type of thinking that gets is to situations we can regret. Totally reasonable not to put a feeding tube in. There are all kinds of poor choices, none are good, so you have to try to make the least bad. But there are studies in the use of feeding tubes in Alzheimer’s that show they are not effective if you look at a bunch of outcomes I'm not talking about a feeding tube, but she couldn't swallow without a thickener added at that point.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 8, 2020 17:12:43 GMT -5
It’s that type of thinking that gets is to situations we can regret. Totally reasonable not to put a feeding tube in. There are all kinds of poor choices, none are good, so you have to try to make the least bad. But there are studies in the use of feeding tubes in Alzheimer’s that show they are not effective if you look at a bunch of outcomes I'm not talking about a feeding tube, but she couldn't swallow without a thickener added at that point. That’s a bit extreme, I agree
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 8:21:59 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on May 9, 2020 8:26:38 GMT -5
SS, how are you feeling this morning? Better I hope.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 9, 2020 8:41:50 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no. How do we reign in healthcare costs if we will not say no to anything. Demand will just increase consistently. Insurance companies will have to be the bad guy for those insured by them, and then you get inconsistent rules on what is covered. Medicare also had arbitrary rules on what it covers, some of which actually increase costs
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on May 9, 2020 8:51:25 GMT -5
How can anyone become the bad guys, insurance or not? How many TV ads are there per week telling everyone to call "blank & blank" law firm..they just won a settlement of $450K for the family of a gentleman who passed away because of negligence . Sue the Drs, the hospitals, anyone who stands in the way. They call them shotgun lawsuits for a reason. And I should know as I m involved as a defendant in a shotgun lawsuit right now. And the only ones to win here will be attorneys in 3 different states, or is it 4 by now.
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on May 9, 2020 9:17:29 GMT -5
I don't believe the Javits or Navy ship were available in March. He couldn't send them there. Also Cuomo was begging for PPE as NY did not have enough. If a Republican governor had been this stupid you would never be giving him a pass like this. Not everybody was stupid enough to knowingly put highly infectious people in the middle of a crowded care facility full of vulnerable people, and staffed by people who aren’t trained to deal with this. Are you responding to my post? I was stating the facts about Javits and the Navy ship. So where should he have put Covid people? How were people supposed to be trained to handle a Novo virus? I don't care if it was a Dem or Rep, my opinion wouldn't change. Cuomo did what he could as would most Gov
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 9:22:26 GMT -5
How do we rein in healthcare costs if we will not say no to anything. Demand will just increase consistently. Insurance companies will have to be the bad guy for those insured by them, and then you get inconsistent rules on what is covered. Medicare also had arbitrary rules on what it covers, some of which actually increase costs Yep. Worst example I sw of this was a lovely woman in her late 70s or early 80s from my previous church, diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. She had an autologous bone marrow transplant, a nasty process which involves extracting some bone marrow, somehow repairing it, zapping her with radiation to kill off the nasties in the rest of the bone marrow, putting the good bone marrow back in and then keeping her in isolation for weeks to protect her while allowing the repaired bone marrow to proliferate. (Sorry about the vague terminology- I didn't go to medical school. ) A coworker in his 50s went through this in the 1990s and came through it OK after a very long recovery so it can work- but the older lady didn't survive it, which isn't surprising. Wonder what THAT cost Medicare. I once saw whiny comments on a FB post about Medicare coverage complaining that Medicare wouldn't pay for colonoscopies after a certain age and it's because they just want poor seniors to DIE of colon cancer! (Ummm. no- the intestinal wall thins out as you age and after a certain point the risk of death from a perforation during colonoscopy becomes higher than the risk of death form undetected colon cancer.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 9, 2020 9:33:57 GMT -5
How do we rein in healthcare costs if we will not say no to anything. Demand will just increase consistently. Insurance companies will have to be the bad guy for those insured by them, and then you get inconsistent rules on what is covered. Medicare also had arbitrary rules on what it covers, some of which actually increase costs Yep. Worst example I sw of this was a lovely woman in her late 70s or early 80s from my previous church, diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. She had an autologous bone marrow transplant, a nasty process which involves extracting some bone marrow, somehow repairing it, zapping her with radiation to kill off the nasties in the rest of the bone marrow, putting the good bone marrow back in and then keeping her in isolation for weeks to protect her while allowing the repaired bone marrow to proliferate. (Sorry about the vague terminology- I didn't go to medical school. ) A coworker in his 50s went through this in the 1990s and came through it OK after a very long recovery so it can work- but the older lady didn't survive it, which isn't surprising. Wonder what THAT cost Medicare. I once saw whiny comments on a FB post about Medicare coverage complaining that Medicare wouldn't pay for colonoscopies after a certain age and it's because they just want poor seniors to DIE of colon cancer! (Ummm. no- the intestinal wall thins out as you age and after a certain point the risk of death from a perforation during colonoscopy becomes higher than the risk of death form undetected colon cancer. You did pretty well with your explanation of a bone marrow transplant.😋 When you look at risk/benefit calculations on colonoscopy after age 75 in someone who had no polyps, the number of years saved vs complications and costs is not favorable. People who complain about it all being about money are right to a certain degree, but isn’t that what they complain about when they complain about healthcare costs? If they really want the test they could pay for it out of pocket, but few do that. If it is really important, and it is not prohibitively expensive, wouldn’t you do it?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 9, 2020 10:27:52 GMT -5
I bet the tax payers a million or more during my FIL's last year. And it was a miserable year. I'm not entirely sure why he held out so long and continued to get treated. My DH thought maybe he didn't think my MIL was ready to be alone. Or maybe it is just nature to defend your own life. I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no. Then the family should pay for it.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 10:47:34 GMT -5
My experience is people who have been caregivers for terminally ill people have a lot different opinions on end-of-life care than those that haven't been.
My late husband was essentially tortured for many years and his death drug out so long with dialysis that it made him and everyone around him hate life for many years. It gave me and both my kids PTSD having had to deal with it day after day and it made him angry and miserable.
I'll never do cancer treatment, dialysis, etc... Thanks, I'll pass. Same for the vent if I get the COVID. I have no desire to live my life after it connected to an oxygen bottle.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 12:12:17 GMT -5
People who complain about it all being about money are right to a certain degree, but isn’t that what they complain about when they complain about healthcare costs? If they really want the test they could pay for it out of pocket, but few do that. If it is really important, and it is not prohibitively expensive, wouldn’t you do it? I would but sadly, for many people in the Medicare age group it would be a hardship to come up with -what? $1,000+?- for a test not covered by insurance. Right now I'm paying out of pocket for tests every few months to monitor key blood components that run at the high end of normal (cholesterol components and a1C)- I use RequestaTest.com, which sends orders to LabCorp or LabQuest and runs me under $100 a pop. It's a luxury many don't have. I agree, though, that we need to do the hard math, especially in tests which carry risks of their own, or those where the person's age and overall health mean that they're not a good candidate for treatment if the result is positive.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 9, 2020 12:52:16 GMT -5
People who complain about it all being about money are right to a certain degree, but isn’t that what they complain about when they complain about healthcare costs? If they really want the test they could pay for it out of pocket, but few do that. If it is really important, and it is not prohibitively expensive, wouldn’t you do it? I would but sadly, for many people in the Medicare age group it would be a hardship to come up with -what? $1,000+?- for a test not covered by insurance. Right now I'm paying out of pocket for tests every few months to monitor key blood components that run at the high end of normal (cholesterol components and a1C)- I use RequestaTest.com, which sends orders to LabCorp or LabQuest and runs me under $100 a pop. It's a luxury many don't have. I agree, though, that we need to do the hard math, especially in tests which carry risks of their own, or those where the person's age and overall health mean that they're not a good candidate for treatment if the result is positive. Careful, they will accuse you of being in favor of death squads.😋 we need to get a handle on spending. Our outcomes are not as good as we want to believe, and a disaster for what we pay. It also has an impact on everyone. For example, treating nursing home patients with repeated courses of antibiotics increases selection pressures on bacteria, increasing resistance. That gets into the hospital, and eventually into the community. Increasingly expensive antibiotics need to be prescribed, and we could run out of antibiotics. Potentially treatable infections become untreatable. These are the consequences that happen with us aggressively treating a population with poor quality of life and limited life expectancies. Difficult questions, but if we want to tackle costs and quality, ones we need to have
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on May 9, 2020 13:36:14 GMT -5
My mother used to call pneumonia 'old folks friend'
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:05:56 GMT -5
I think this is it. And to be fair, I'm not sure it is up to society to say when enough is enough. Individual, yes; family, maybe; society, no. Then the family should pay for it. It wasn't that many years ago that breast cancer was an automatic death sentence. I had several friends die of it in their 30s and 40s. Fast forward and medical advances have allowed my 60-something year old friends to make the 10-year mark and keep going. But even if they were sure to die in their 70s because no one made the 10 year mark, isn't it worth it to them? Isn't even a year or two worth it to them? I am not talking about someone in a coma or vegetative state, I'm not saying we should give liver transplants to alcoholics and drug users whose own abuse created their problems. But this is very personal to me. At what point should society have given up on my husband? In the 10-years he lived here, he had multiple stents put in, an abdominal aortic bypass, blood poisoning, c-diff, a heart attack, prostate reduction, cataract removal procedures multiple times (they partially returned), back surgery to fuse some of his vertebrae, removal/replacement of pacemaker/defibrillator, artificial valve replacement, dozens of scopes for internal bleeding with some surgeries interspersed, etc. Factor in all the doctors' visits before, following-up, further follow-ups, routine visits, and medicines . . . Well, he was obviously a million dollar man! Please do not answer my question above. Just understand that he had a good ten years up until the last six months. And very little was actually done during those last six months. He went to the ER several times and was hospitalized several times, but it was primarily stabilization. And even then it was only the last three weeks that he became basically bed-ridden. Maybe congestive heart failure is just different. Lots of people have it, and you don't even know. They are slowly dying so that every procedure helps slow that process and allowed them a decent quality of life. But it is expensive primarily because it isn't quick as many cancers are. How on earth do we as a society decide? That question you can choose to answer. ETA: I was a caregiver, @shastasnewlife. Just me, myself, and I. No help from friends and family. No respite care. It was only six months, and they were hard six months. But it was only bad those last three weeks after he went on hospice.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on May 9, 2020 14:18:45 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that we need to have a discussion about end-of-life and what procedures should be done for someone with Alzheimer, a terminal disease, very elderly, etc.
But the prices here are out of whack with the rest of the world. And I think the reason is because the system is for-profit. The system is perverse. It's all about making a buck, and there are many intermediaries. Until our system removes the profit motive we won't be able to reduce costs. And I'm not talking about doctor's salaries. It's about the middle man, insurance, who benefits by charging premiums and denying care. And big pharma charging whatever they want with absolutely no price controls.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 9, 2020 14:25:48 GMT -5
My mom also had some really good years towards the end there, years after doctors wanted to write her off (also CHF). They were important because she got to know her grandsons, and they got to know her.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on May 9, 2020 14:28:01 GMT -5
My mom has worked in a nursing home for 30 years now, started as a CNA and worked her way up.
After 30 years a nasty fight with siblings over my grandfather that almost went to court she still maintains in her case: quality of life > breathing any day.
She feels she has seen / taken care of a lot of patients during those 30 years that were just a shell being pumped with medication and kept alive aka breathing.
My mom loves her patients, some have literally seen me grow up and ask for me, my siblings (my mom show them pictures) and yes she has people that have been there 15-20 years and up.
But there is a difference when someone needs assistance to go on with their day and when the person is gone. Someone said once: is it greed (because someone is getting paid including my mom) or is it compassion? And when is it over the top?
My grandmother on my dad side (and I see my dad going down the same way if he does not do radical changes and I am starting at 35 since I see the writing on the wall) suffered a stroke and was paralyzed for 5 years (her left side) till she died. Her last 5 years was spent in bed, yet she still had all her faculties; told some some amazing stories and learned so much about my family during that time when we visited her.
But when she died in between our tears and sorrows we celebrated her, because the woman we knew, the woman we loved ... did not want to be confined to a bed. Her best moments were when family and friends would visit and spend time with her, she would come alive. But then after she was alone, in her room, all day... she grew depressed after her first year.
I don’t know what will I do when it will be our time to make a decision for my mother, stepdad, father... I don’t think there is a right and wrong answer, but I agree that emotions play a major role in it.
As I stated my father, biological father, suffered a mini stroke last year at 65 following in the footsteps of his mother, beating her by a decade or so. With therapy and such he has regained control of his left side but still not 100%. He is due for a full check up, getting light headed, diabetes still an issue, blood pressure acting up etc... and had to “forcibly retire”.
So I had to unwillingly “contribute” financially since last year. As of now we are talking about $250-$300/every 2 weeks. My mom (God she is amazing) also send $200-300 every 1-3 months (because I would not if I were her but that woman is Saint). Every time I question her she says: you cannot continue to live in the past , you have to forgive and move on... I am not there yet, I am still passed and angry about a lot of things.
Anyway long story short; I resent at times having to send my biological father money but I do it out of duty. Not enough for him to live comfortably but enough to cover his bare necessities. My mom asked me what would I do if that was her? And honestly, I would be sending 2-3 times that amount without a second thought, I would travel to the end of the earth and back for her.
So yeah : will I make a different choice for my biological father than my mom or even possibly my stepdad? I hate to say it out loud but probably yes...
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