NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 10, 2020 15:53:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I get that Trump is guilty but that does not absolve others for their part. Merican's suck as followers.I dunno....there's a huge chunk that are following all the conspiracy theories quite well... That was the first thing that came to mind when I read the statement of Americans sucking as followers. There is a significant group who "shine" in that respect. Unfortunately it is the group that thinks running heavily armed to a capitol building to scream in people's faces equates to standing up for their rights.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2020 16:01:35 GMT -5
I guess we have a different definition of "bunkum" (reply #79) if to you it is a indication of agreement. I was agreeing with this:
President Trump doesn't lead, he races to get and stay in front of the crowd.
I am really not sure where we disagree right now, and I would be pleased to remain in that place of unknowing. are we good? because I would hate for bunkum to get in the way of agreement.
I certainly see no value continuing.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2020 16:05:00 GMT -5
I dunno....there's a huge chunk that are following all the conspiracy theories quite well... That was the first thing that came to mind when I read the statement of Americans sucking as followers. There is a significant group who "shine" in that respect. Unfortunately it is the group that thinks running heavily armed to a capitol building to scream in people's faces equates to standing up for their rights. Believing in and acting upon an idea is different in my mind than being a follower. YMMV.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 10, 2020 16:58:01 GMT -5
good. back to the OP, then.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 12:15:20 GMT -5
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/according to the daily new deaths graph below the state counts, it indicates that yesterday there were fewer than 1k deaths/day from covid in the us for the first time since March. Just got a text dentist is opening up for non-emergency patients. I'm feeling very ambivalent about things opening up. yesterday - I was thinking about all the families who have lost their mothers to covid, all the mothers who have lost children to covid. It just doesn't seem worth it to push opening up. It we all hunkered down all at once with supplies and no need for shopping - no rent or mortgages due - just nothing - it seems we could starve it out like SARS. Seem that could have occurred on a much smaller scale in localized areas if this threat had been taken more seriously. If we were will to support people in affected areas and contain and extinct this virus if possible. Seriously - why are we here? This didn't have to happened. We are smarter than this - it's not the middle ages. This could have been avoided, and I think it's time to really start asking why it wasn't.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 11, 2020 12:30:47 GMT -5
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/according to the daily new deaths graph below the state counts, it indicates that yesterday there were fewer than 1k deaths/day from covid in the us for the first time since March. Just got a text dentist is opening up for non-emergency patients. I'm feeling very ambivalent about things opening up. yesterday - I was thinking about all the families who have lost their mothers to covid, all the mothers who have lost children to covid. It just doesn't seem worth it to push opening up. It we all hunkered down all at once with supplies and no need for shopping - no rent or mortgages due - just nothing - it seems we could starve it out like SARS. Seem that could have occurred on a much smaller scale in localized areas if this threat had been taken more seriously. If we were will to support people in affected areas and contain and extinct this virus if possible. Seriously - why are we here? This didn't have to happened. We are smarter than this - it's not the middle ages. This could have been avoided, and I think it's time to really start asking why it wasn't. We apparently aren’t smarter than this, nor does it look like we have learned anything either. I used to think we were getting smarter too, but the last few years have disabused me of that notion
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 11, 2020 12:40:07 GMT -5
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/according to the daily new deaths graph below the state counts, it indicates that yesterday there were fewer than 1k deaths/day from covid in the us for the first time since March. Just got a text dentist is opening up for non-emergency patients. I'm feeling very ambivalent about things opening up. yesterday - I was thinking about all the families who have lost their mothers to covid, all the mothers who have lost children to covid. It just doesn't seem worth it to push opening up. It we all hunkered down all at once with supplies and no need for shopping - no rent or mortgages due - just nothing - it seems we could starve it out like SARS. Seem that could have occurred on a much smaller scale in localized areas if this threat had been taken more seriously. If we were will to support people in affected areas and contain and extinct this virus if possible. Seriously - why are we here? This didn't have to happened. We are smarter than this - it's not the middle ages. This could have been avoided, and I think it's time to really start asking why it wasn't. We aren't smarter than this. I am also not sure we can literally shut down for long enough. Having two weeks of supplies is rough for a lot of people, and didn't they find active Covid on surfaces in the cruise ship 17 days after it had been empty? If so, maybe 2 weeks isn't even enough. So, biologically, it would be very tough to starve it out. Not to mention economically. Just because us rich people can skip a couple of paychecks and still eat the steak in our freezer, being totally shut down for a month would sink a huge number of businesses.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:10:22 GMT -5
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/according to the daily new deaths graph below the state counts, it indicates that yesterday there were fewer than 1k deaths/day from covid in the us for the first time since March. Just got a text dentist is opening up for non-emergency patients. I'm feeling very ambivalent about things opening up. yesterday - I was thinking about all the families who have lost their mothers to covid, all the mothers who have lost children to covid. It just doesn't seem worth it to push opening up. It we all hunkered down all at once with supplies and no need for shopping - no rent or mortgages due - just nothing - it seems we could starve it out like SARS. Seem that could have occurred on a much smaller scale in localized areas if this threat had been taken more seriously. If we were will to support people in affected areas and contain and extinct this virus if possible. Seriously - why are we here? This didn't have to happened. We are smarter than this - it's not the middle ages. This could have been avoided, and I think it's time to really start asking why it wasn't. We aren't smarter than this. I am also not sure we can literally shut down for long enough. Having two weeks of supplies is rough for a lot of people, and didn't they find active Covid on surfaces in the cruise ship 17 days after it had been empty? If so, maybe 2 weeks isn't even enough. So, biologically, it would be very tough to starve it out. Not to mention economically. Just because us rich people can skip a couple of paychecks and still eat the steak in our freezer, being totally shut down for a month would sink a huge number of businesses. and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:12:33 GMT -5
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/according to the daily new deaths graph below the state counts, it indicates that yesterday there were fewer than 1k deaths/day from covid in the us for the first time since March. Just got a text dentist is opening up for non-emergency patients. I'm feeling very ambivalent about things opening up. yesterday - I was thinking about all the families who have lost their mothers to covid, all the mothers who have lost children to covid. It just doesn't seem worth it to push opening up. It we all hunkered down all at once with supplies and no need for shopping - no rent or mortgages due - just nothing - it seems we could starve it out like SARS. Seem that could have occurred on a much smaller scale in localized areas if this threat had been taken more seriously. If we were will to support people in affected areas and contain and extinct this virus if possible. Seriously - why are we here? This didn't have to happened. We are smarter than this - it's not the middle ages. This could have been avoided, and I think it's time to really start asking why it wasn't. We apparently aren’t smarter than this, nor does it look like we have learned anything either. I used to think we were getting smarter too, but the last few years have disabused me of that notion we are smarter than this, and we have the tech tools to navigate this. the fact is we failed. it was fear and not a lack of knowledge that betrayed us.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 11, 2020 14:17:07 GMT -5
We aren't smarter than this. I am also not sure we can literally shut down for long enough. Having two weeks of supplies is rough for a lot of people, and didn't they find active Covid on surfaces in the cruise ship 17 days after it had been empty? If so, maybe 2 weeks isn't even enough. So, biologically, it would be very tough to starve it out. Not to mention economically. Just because us rich people can skip a couple of paychecks and still eat the steak in our freezer, being totally shut down for a month would sink a huge number of businesses. and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children? Not just NYC. There is a 13 year old boy in intensive care at Childrens Hospital in Seattle fighting for his life. He has Covid19 antibodies. He could be anyone’s child.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 14:20:00 GMT -5
We aren't smarter than this. I am also not sure we can literally shut down for long enough. Having two weeks of supplies is rough for a lot of people, and didn't they find active Covid on surfaces in the cruise ship 17 days after it had been empty? If so, maybe 2 weeks isn't even enough. So, biologically, it would be very tough to starve it out. Not to mention economically. Just because us rich people can skip a couple of paychecks and still eat the steak in our freezer, being totally shut down for a month would sink a huge number of businesses. and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children? Public policy based on personal emotion is unworkable.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:22:38 GMT -5
and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children? Not just NYC. There is a 13 year old boy in intensive care at Childrens Hospital in Seattle fighting for his life. He has Covid19 antibodies. He could be anyone’s child. Because we don't even know the full story on covid. We might come out 10 years from now with an understanding that anything - any amount of money - to stop it in it's tracks was worth it. If world communication and trust was better, and we knew what the risk was and what was occurring in Wuhan - just imagine if the world came together and financed an early quarantine and everyone affected had plenty of supplies, didn't need to shop, and didn't need to worry about bills and every effort was made to contain and eliminate this virus from going global? maybe a few sparks lit up in a few other spots and an equally strong and effect support was sent out. But no. Let's just see what happens. a 2% death rate - sounds like the flu. No story here.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on May 11, 2020 14:23:04 GMT -5
I think we've become apathetic towards everything.
We have a broken political system; but we can't seem to fix it.
We have a narcissistic con man as president, but we can't seem to get rid of him.
Climate change will destroy the planet for our children, but it's too hard to even try to fix it, so why bother making the sacrifice?
So now we've got a pandemic raging, and it's just another OMG-crisis that's hard to control. Well, we tried (sort of), it wasn't a magic bullet, it's taking too long, it's too hard, I give up, I've lost interest, see ya, later...
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:25:21 GMT -5
and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children? Public policy based on personal emotion is unworkable. public policy without emotion is meaningless and likely dystopian in fact - without emotion, there is no public policy
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 14:31:13 GMT -5
Public policy based on personal emotion is unworkable. public policy without emotion is meaningless and likely dystopian in fact - without emotion, there is no public policy You left out the word "personal". That was your appeal. "Your loved ones". "Your children". Policy needs heart, I will grant you that. But it can't be driven by the level of personal investment you are putting on it.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:41:34 GMT -5
I think we've become apathetic towards everything. We have a broken political system; but we can't seem to fix it. We have a narcissistic con man as president, but we can't seem to get rid of him. Climate change will destroy the planet for our children, but it's too hard to even try to fix it, so why bother making the sacrifice? So now we've got a pandemic raging, and it's just another OMG-crisis that's hard to control. Well, we tried (sort of), it wasn't a magic bullet, it's taking too long, it's too hard, I give up, I've lost interest, see ya, later... I kind of feel like I'm in an early star trek episode where they visit an apparently intelligent and advanced 21st type century civilization that has multiple serious threats to it's citizenship and even continued existence at all. But all the business, politicians, and individual citizens are just counting their lukitonian credits and deciding that children are too expensive to save and while the current policies will likely make the planet unlivable, it's too expensive to fix with business pointing fingers at government and vice versa on whose to blame. kirk is looking horrified - pleading with leaders to see logic spock has a nearly perpetually raised eyebrow as each detail unfolds during the episode and while the details are revealed bones keeps exclaiming "Jim, they're going to die!" "I'm just a country doctor, Jim, I can't make them....." and finally after working with resistance forces and trying to intervene with leaders - crisis point - crew now political criminals - altercation "he's dead Jim!" as they beam up at the last minute escaping execution, engage warp drive and wing away....... at the bridge, Yeoman Rand asks kirk - will they come to senses and save themselves before it's too late? "I don't know, Yeoman.....I've got to believe that they can do it...." theme music.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:42:36 GMT -5
public policy without emotion is meaningless and likely dystopian in fact - without emotion, there is no public policy You left out the word "personal". That was your appeal. "Your loved ones". "Your children". Policy needs heart, I will grant you that. But it can't be driven by the level of personal investment you are putting on it. that's your opinion. doesn't make it the slightly bit truer than anyone else's.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on May 11, 2020 14:43:40 GMT -5
I think we've become apathetic towards everything. We have a broken political system; but we can't seem to fix it. We have a narcissistic con man as president, but we can't seem to get rid of him. Climate change will destroy the planet for our children, but it's too hard to even try to fix it, so why bother making the sacrifice? So now we've got a pandemic raging, and it's just another OMG-crisis that's hard to control. Well, we tried (sort of), it wasn't a magic bullet, it's taking too long, it's too hard, I give up, I've lost interest, see ya, later... Pretty much. And the worst part is, the very people who are so casual about this pandemic, when if they are impacted personally will be bitching and moaning about how they weren't told and how the system let them down (it won't be everyone, but I think it will be most). I do understand that the economic hardships for many people are brutal. Not just uncomfortable, but truly terrifying and brutal. But, those economic hardships won't get much better simply because states lift the stay-at-home orders. I have zero intention of eating in a restaurant, going into a store, etc., simply because I can now. And I don't know very many people who will be doing those things. However, I know I am also deeply frustrated by the government in this. More than 90% of people in this country have been under stay-at-home orders. I think many of us with the assumption that the time we stayed home would be used wisely so that when the orders were lifted we could gradually resume a modified normal. That time was completely wasted.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 14:53:41 GMT -5
I think we've become apathetic towards everything. We have a broken political system; but we can't seem to fix it. We have a narcissistic con man as president, but we can't seem to get rid of him. Climate change will destroy the planet for our children, but it's too hard to even try to fix it, so why bother making the sacrifice? So now we've got a pandemic raging, and it's just another OMG-crisis that's hard to control. Well, we tried (sort of), it wasn't a magic bullet, it's taking too long, it's too hard, I give up, I've lost interest, see ya, later... I do understand that the economic hardships for many people are brutal. Not just uncomfortable, but truly terrifying and brutal. But, those economic hardships won't get much better simply because states lift the stay-at-home orders. like DJ mentioned the other day - the financial support needs to go to the people not stupid corporations that have been going gangbusters and have had every opportunity with their super low tax rates to prepare for a downturn. Support the people. Make sure everyone has food, toilet paper, etc. For those in economic hardship - will that improve when the breadwinner dies? Or is hospitalized for a month? Will these small business really be able to make a go when opening? And what happens if owners get sick or die? Employee dies of covid, the rest quit? Seriously - I don't see a magical return to base when things reopen. I see things getting worse, not better.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 15:03:39 GMT -5
You left out the word "personal". That was your appeal. "Your loved ones". "Your children". Policy needs heart, I will grant you that. But it can't be driven by the level of personal investment you are putting on it. that's your opinion. doesn't make it the slightly bit truer than anyone else's. You are making this personal just as you do with policy. Ideas can stand apart from the individual who voices them. The current situation is one in which there is no perfect solution. There will be sacrifice that will take place. Policy makers have to determine on whom they will fall. A small scale example, the continual testing of top governmental officials and those around them to keep them safe means that those tests are not available for the testing for my loved ones to keep them safe. I have no problem with those officials making that policy decision based on the rational idea that keeping a functioning government (such as it is ) is necessary. Is there an emotional component to doing so? I would say yes. It would cause emotional distress to have the White House crippled.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 15:09:35 GMT -5
that's your opinion. doesn't make it the slightly bit truer than anyone else's. You are making this personal just as you do with policy. Ideas can stand apart from the individual who voices them. The current situation is one in which there is no perfect solution. There will be sacrifice that will take place. Policy makers have to determine on whom they will fall. A small scale example, the continual testing of top governmental officials and those around them to keep them safe means that those tests are not available for the testing for my loved ones to keep them safe. I have no problem with those officials making that policy decision based on the rational idea that keeping a functioning government (such as it is ) is necessary. Is there an emotional component to doing so? I would say yes. It would cause emotional distress to have the White House crippled. how does my calling your opinion an opinion = me making it "personal"?
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on May 11, 2020 15:15:40 GMT -5
I do understand that the economic hardships for many people are brutal. Not just uncomfortable, but truly terrifying and brutal. But, those economic hardships won't get much better simply because states lift the stay-at-home orders. like DJ mentioned the other day - the financial support needs to go to the people not stupid corporations that have been going gangbusters and have had every opportunity with their super low tax rates to prepare for a downturn. Support the people. Make sure everyone has food, toilet paper, etc. For those in economic hardship - will that improve when the breadwinner dies? Or is hospitalized for a month? Will these small business really be able to make a go when opening? And what happens if owners get sick or die? Employee dies of covid, the rest quit? Seriously - I don't see a magical return to base when things reopen. I see things getting worse, not better. I agree that we need to provide real meaningful support to those who are suffering from the shutdowns, etc. But, as long as the GOP is in control, then that won't happen. Sadly, this country decided years ago that individual lives were expendable, as long as they were poor, women, and/or black. So the stock market will be prioritized over people. Old rich white men and what they want will be the driving force behind major policy changes.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 15:28:16 GMT -5
You are making this personal just as you do with policy. Ideas can stand apart from the individual who voices them. The current situation is one in which there is no perfect solution. There will be sacrifice that will take place. Policy makers have to determine on whom they will fall. A small scale example, the continual testing of top governmental officials and those around them to keep them safe means that those tests are not available for the testing for my loved ones to keep them safe. I have no problem with those officials making that policy decision based on the rational idea that keeping a functioning government (such as it is ) is necessary. Is there an emotional component to doing so? I would say yes. It would cause emotional distress to have the White House crippled. how does my calling your opinion an opinion = me making it "personal"? You asked so here is an answer. You posted "that's your opinion" and further "than anyone else's." The word "your" is a personal pronoun. You referenced "anyone", a person, rather than any other opinion. That is how you made it personal.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 15:29:37 GMT -5
like DJ mentioned the other day - the financial support needs to go to the people not stupid corporations that have been going gangbusters and have had every opportunity with their super low tax rates to prepare for a downturn. Support the people. Make sure everyone has food, toilet paper, etc. For those in economic hardship - will that improve when the breadwinner dies? Or is hospitalized for a month? Will these small business really be able to make a go when opening? And what happens if owners get sick or die? Employee dies of covid, the rest quit? Seriously - I don't see a magical return to base when things reopen. I see things getting worse, not better. I agree that we need to provide real meaningful support to those who are suffering from the shutdowns, etc. But, as long as the GOP is in control, then that won't happen. Sadly, this country decided years ago that individual lives were expendable, as long as they were poor, women, and/or black. So the stock market will be prioritized over people. Old rich white men and what they want will be the driving force behind major policy changes. we are also in a good position to assess how Europe's reopening goes. We were weeks behind them on the peak - can't we wait a bit and this time try to learn something that might be helpful?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 15:31:28 GMT -5
how does my calling your opinion an opinion = me making it "personal"? You asked so here is an answer. You posted "that's your opinion" and further "than anyone else's." The word "your" is a personal pronoun. You referenced "anyone", a person, rather than any other opinion. That is how you made it personal. so - you think your opinion is what? exactly? not yours? or not an opinion?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 15:41:39 GMT -5
You asked so here is an answer. You posted "that's your opinion" and further "than anyone else's." The word "your" is a personal pronoun. You referenced "anyone", a person, rather than any other opinion. That is how you made it personal. so - you think your opinion is what? exactly? not yours? or not an opinion? I think it is an opinion voiced in this case by me. My issue was with the dismissal of my opinion simply by indicating it "doesn't make it the slightly bit truer than anyone else's." I think that opinions supported by logical thought stand a better chance of being the slightly bit truer than those without any logical support.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 11, 2020 15:50:11 GMT -5
It is frustrating the level of stress that is created by the current situation. It really divides us as we each attempt to make sense of it and how to get through it. Sorry about the part I am playing in that.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 11, 2020 15:53:00 GMT -5
ok - we can drop this subtopic. nothing to worry about it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 11, 2020 15:53:54 GMT -5
We aren't smarter than this. I am also not sure we can literally shut down for long enough. Having two weeks of supplies is rough for a lot of people, and didn't they find active Covid on surfaces in the cruise ship 17 days after it had been empty? If so, maybe 2 weeks isn't even enough. So, biologically, it would be very tough to starve it out. Not to mention economically. Just because us rich people can skip a couple of paychecks and still eat the steak in our freezer, being totally shut down for a month would sink a huge number of businesses. and what if it is one of your loved ones that is collateral damage in this? maybe even one of your children? will the reengaged economy comfort you? will the small business down the street surviving make it worthwhile? this is what I am talking about. NYC is finding out that sometimes healthy children are dying suddenly due to a covid related illness. Is this all acceptable when it is someone's else children?Isn't it always? Go look at most activism...it's being done by people who were directly impacted by something. I drive a car almost every day. Is it worth the risk of possibly dying given how unlikely it is to happen? Yes. If my kid dies while in the car with me will I wish I'd never driven because their life wasn't worth it? Absolutely. Everything you do in life involves risk, most of which you'll accept because the rewards outweigh the risk. If you know you're going to get hit with the negative consequences though, you wouldn't have accepted the "risk" once the "risk" becomes a certainty after-the-fact. So a lot of people are going to have different spots on the risk/reward spectrum that make it worth it...almost everyone will have a point at which they change their mind to "not worth it" if they know with certainty it impacts them in the most negative way possible.
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NastyWoman
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Joined: Dec 24, 2010 20:50:37 GMT -5
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Post by NastyWoman on May 11, 2020 16:36:44 GMT -5
We apparently aren’t smarter than this, nor does it look like we have learned anything either. I used to think we were getting smarter too, but the last few years have disabused me of that notion we are smarter than this, and we have the tech tools to navigate this. the fact is we failed. it was fear and hubris, not a lack of knowledge that betrayed us. fixed
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