NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 23, 2021 11:14:46 GMT -5
you still had cases because so many states were NOT locked down.
and you have to love the "armchair quarterback" defense. the fact is that we HAD NO QUARTERBACK. if we did, we would have had a coordinated approach that saves lives. if you don't believe that, I guess that is ok. but when your country fails to do as good a job as 180 other countries, you can't just sit there and dismiss the critique as "second guessing". not without being laughed out of the room, anyway.
When you spend 50 years tearing down the "other side", are you surprised that the President can't join the nation with a common goal? Besides, nobody could convince states/cities/counties to lockdown for months on end. Lockdowns are the equivalent of abstinence for teens, sure they work, but good luck getting compliance! So it's not even worth talking about it. Considering the five worst states have parroted every single claim Trump has ever made about COVID. .. yeah I am going to say Trump could have gotten them in line if he had chosen to spread a different message.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 11:19:16 GMT -5
you still had cases because so many states were NOT locked down.
and you have to love the "armchair quarterback" defense. the fact is that we HAD NO QUARTERBACK. if we did, we would have had a coordinated approach that saves lives. if you don't believe that, I guess that is ok. but when your country fails to do as good a job as 180 other countries, you can't just sit there and dismiss the critique as "second guessing". not without being laughed out of the room, anyway.
When you spend 50 years tearing down the "other side", are you surprised that the President can't join the nation with a common goal? Besides, nobody could convince states/cities/counties to lockdown for months on end. Lockdowns are the equivalent of abstinence for teens, sure they work, but good luck getting compliance! So it's not even worth talking about it. I completely disagree. a strong leader could have done that. the fact that you don't think it possible- that you can't imagine it- just shows how weak our leadership is in this country.
your low expectations of Americans is so widespread that I no longer want to live here. we are incapable of behaving like anything other than spoiled teenagers (according to you), which makes that behavior excusable (according to you). but none of those things are true.
South Korea and New Zealand are every bit as much democracies as we are. they had lockdowns for "months on end" and they CRUSHED this virus. it is called effective leadership. the kind you don't believe in, apparently. but the fact that you don't believe it does not make it unreal.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 23, 2021 11:20:51 GMT -5
And other countries did so much better. COVID was going to knock us on our ass, but it did not need to be this bad. For a country that has one of the best systems in the world, this is a perfect example of how politics interfered with the science. Politics interfered in EVERY aspect of dealing with this pandemic, to the detriment of the US. This wasn’t a blue or red state issue. We have a proportion of the population who never saw it as a problem, and went about their life as if COVID didn’t exist (and yes, there are certain areas of my blue city in my blue state that I avoid as they are potential problems). That was sufficient to exacerbate the problem for everyone who complied, and overburdening our healthcare system. So we would've done better to just have a population that follows the rules laid out by politicians that have burned them in the past? Did you think that 30+ years of bickering, corrupt politicians would instill trust among the US people? Do you think gov't officials earned that level of trust? You all seem surprised that there wasn't compliance, I'm not surprised at all. I'm confused. Arent' the 73million people who voted for trump willing to follow him? Isn't that why they voted for him? Because he would LEAD them and they would go along with what he and his party indicates America should do?? Isn't that why 81 Million people voted for Biden? because he would LEAD them and they would go along with what he and his party indicates America should do? Do you mean to say if trump had said "everyone! Wear a mask! Here's an awesome red Maga mask! Look! show your support for Maga!" None of his followers/supporters would have put on a mask?? Or that his opponents would have jumped on the "don't wear a mask!" bandwagon? If he had done that (said wear a mask) - I would have still worn a mask - just not a red Maga mask. Wearing a mask was what I believed was the right thing to do. do you think American politics is a joke? or entertainment? American government/politics isn't a Reality Show - where you vote for who stays in the House or the Island or who is the most popular based on what the editors/producers of the show showed you (so you are voting based on what the people in charge of the show wanted you to see - not on any actual reality for the people doing the acting) during the 38 minutes of show time. Politicians are deciding things that effect your everyday life (and your children's future.) You better damn well be willing to follow the person you vote for. They should be espousing your values (or something close to it - or something you are willing to compromise on).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 11:26:35 GMT -5
When you spend 50 years tearing down the "other side", are you surprised that the President can't join the nation with a common goal? Besides, nobody could convince states/cities/counties to lockdown for months on end. Lockdowns are the equivalent of abstinence for teens, sure they work, but good luck getting compliance! So it's not even worth talking about it. Considering the five worst states have parroted every single claim Trump has ever made about COVID. .. yeah I am going to say Trump could have gotten them in line if he had chosen to spread a different message. a few months ago, 14 of the 15 worst states in case and death rates per capita were Republican, and 13 of 15 of the best states were Democratic. there is no other explanation for why this was the case other than the one you mentioned above.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 23, 2021 11:31:25 GMT -5
When you spend 50 years tearing down the "other side", are you surprised that the President can't join the nation with a common goal? Besides, nobody could convince states/cities/counties to lockdown for months on end. Lockdowns are the equivalent of abstinence for teens, sure they work, but good luck getting compliance! So it's not even worth talking about it. I completely disagree. a strong leader could have done that. the fact that you don't think it possible- that you can't imagine it- just shows how weak our leadership is in this country.
your low expectations of Americans is so widespread that I no longer want to live here. we are incapable of behaving like anything other than spoiled teenagers (according to you), which makes that behavior excusable (according to you). but none of those things are true.
South Korea and New Zealand are every bit as much democracies as we are. they had lockdowns for "months on end" and they CRUSHED this virus. it is called effective leadership. the kind you don't believe in, apparently. but the fact that you don't believe it does not make it unreal.
"A strong leader", well that sounds great. It doesn't take 1 strong leader, it takes many strong leaders over many years and it takes an entire cultural shift. The fact that you think that some Dale Carnegie type can get up there and convince a divided nation to go forward with some united plan is laughable.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 23, 2021 11:39:16 GMT -5
I completely disagree. a strong leader could have done that. the fact that you don't think it possible- that you can't imagine it- just shows how weak our leadership is in this country.
your low expectations of Americans is so widespread that I no longer want to live here. we are incapable of behaving like anything other than spoiled teenagers (according to you), which makes that behavior excusable (according to you). but none of those things are true.
South Korea and New Zealand are every bit as much democracies as we are. they had lockdowns for "months on end" and they CRUSHED this virus. it is called effective leadership. the kind you don't believe in, apparently. but the fact that you don't believe it does not make it unreal.
"A strong leader", well that sounds great. It doesn't take 1 strong leader, it takes many strong leaders over many years and it takes an entire cultural shift. The fact that you think that some Dale Carnegie type can get up there and convince a divided nation to go forward with some united plan is laughable. So you're saying none of the 73 million who support Trump would have worn a mask, shut down non-essential business and basically NOT treated this as a giant Democratic hoax? Are you saying California and New York would have let their states burn just to prove a point if Trump had actually taken COVID seriously? You really think Democrats in Congress would have obstructed the Republicans just to prove a point? You think the Republicans who have been and continue to suck Trump's dick wouldn't have taken this seriously if he had? Would every single American have complied of course not we're human beings. But come on you think Texas, Georgia, Iowa, Nebraska, and North Dakota wouldn't have changed a damn thing if their dead leader had told them so? If the Midwest had been told get with the program we wouldn't have been sitting around waiting for it to hit us. This is taking way longer than it should because states like mine were allowed to claim our rugged pioneer red blooded Republican spirit would save us from illness. That worked out awesome. If you think we're all staying home twiddling our thumbs obeying the rules I got a bridge to sell you. States like mine are hot pockets that continue to flair up then share the wealth with the rest of you. We could be out of this so much sooner if the states had been forced to comply as a whole.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 23, 2021 11:40:21 GMT -5
The idea that we cannot get people to sacrifice for the greater good is laughable. What have front line workers done for the last year. We came together after 9/11 and we’re willing to week together. This has been the equivalent of 20 9/11s, and we act like nothing could have been done about it.
Trump appealed to the worst of our nature. He actually had an advantage he refused to use. Since all the right wing pundits parrot his stances, if he had the ability to do something that was for the greater good, and appealed to our best nature, we would have been able to do better. The other side also easy listened to scientists and physicians.
To think we could not have done better is ridiculous. This was a failure at a political level, first and foremost. Trump has a lot to answer for
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2021 11:53:01 GMT -5
And other countries did so much better. COVID was going to knock us on our ass, but it did not need to be this bad. For a country that has one of the best systems in the world, this is a perfect example of how politics interfered with the science. Politics interfered in EVERY aspect of dealing with this pandemic, to the detriment of the US. This wasn’t a blue or red state issue. We have a proportion of the population who never saw it as a problem, and went about their life as if COVID didn’t exist (and yes, there are certain areas of my blue city in my blue state that I avoid as they are potential problems). That was sufficient to exacerbate the problem for everyone who complied, and overburdening our healthcare system. So we would've done better to just have a population that follows the rules laid out by politicians that have burned them in the past? Did you think that 30+ years of bickering, corrupt politicians would instill trust among the US people? Do you think gov't officials earned that level of trust? You all seem surprised that there wasn't compliance, I'm not surprised at all. Yes. We have half the country who won’t wear a mask. Why do other countries do so much better? This was not a political issue, it was a public health issue. Yet the politicians thought they were scientists, rather than listening to the scientists and being role models for what those who have educated and worked their life in a field. Most would never tell an engineer how to design a refinery, yet they knew better than the epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors. Those sheeple who worshiped at the alter of Trump took cues from him.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 12:18:24 GMT -5
I completely disagree. a strong leader could have done that. the fact that you don't think it possible- that you can't imagine it- just shows how weak our leadership is in this country.
your low expectations of Americans is so widespread that I no longer want to live here. we are incapable of behaving like anything other than spoiled teenagers (according to you), which makes that behavior excusable (according to you). but none of those things are true.
South Korea and New Zealand are every bit as much democracies as we are. they had lockdowns for "months on end" and they CRUSHED this virus. it is called effective leadership. the kind you don't believe in, apparently. but the fact that you don't believe it does not make it unreal.
"A strong leader", well that sounds great. It doesn't take 1 strong leader, it takes many strong leaders over many years and it takes an entire cultural shift. The fact that you think that some Dale Carnegie type can get up there and convince a divided nation to go forward with some united plan is laughable. this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 12:23:21 GMT -5
candidly, this notion that nothing could be done, and that Americans are too immature and selfish to respond to a national emergency is equal parts disgusting and untrue.
what happened to the exceptional, science based nation that pulled itself out of a depression, put 50 million men to work, helped win WW2, and sent a man to the moon? where did that country go? because THAT is the country i want to live in.
not this one.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 12:27:35 GMT -5
The idea that we cannot get people to sacrifice for the greater good is laughable. What have front line workers done for the last year. We came together after 9/11 and we’re willing to week together. This has been the equivalent of 20 9/11s, and we act like nothing could have been done about it. Trump appealed to the worst of our nature. He actually had an advantage he refused to use. Since all the right wing pundits parrot his stances, if he had the ability to do something that was for the greater good, and appealed to our best nature, we would have been able to do better. The other side also easy listened to scientists and physicians. To think we could not have done better is ridiculous. This was a failure at a political level, first and foremost. Trump has a lot to answer for 200 9/11's, unfortunately.
IF Trump had actually LEAD, he would still be president. it was a great opportunity for him to lead- to win over people like me who have doubted his ability to do so for 5 years. he absolutely failed in the face of that challenge. my 20 year old son would have done better. it was the kind of response i would expect from a preschooler- incoherent and selfish.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 23, 2021 13:02:37 GMT -5
The idea that we cannot get people to sacrifice for the greater good is laughable. What have front line workers done for the last year. We came together after 9/11 and we’re willing to week together. This has been the equivalent of 20 9/11s, and we act like nothing could have been done about it. Trump appealed to the worst of our nature. He actually had an advantage he refused to use. Since all the right wing pundits parrot his stances, if he had the ability to do something that was for the greater good, and appealed to our best nature, we would have been able to do better. The other side also easy listened to scientists and physicians. To think we could not have done better is ridiculous. This was a failure at a political level, first and foremost. Trump has a lot to answer for 200 9/11's, unfortunately.
IF Trump had actually LEAD, he would still be president. it was a great opportunity for him to lead- to win over people like me who have doubted his ability to do so for 5 years. he absolutely failed in the face of that challenge. my 20 year old son would have done better. it was the kind of response i would expect from a preschooler- incoherent and selfish.
Yes, I missed a zero
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 23, 2021 14:21:16 GMT -5
"A strong leader", well that sounds great. It doesn't take 1 strong leader, it takes many strong leaders over many years and it takes an entire cultural shift. The fact that you think that some Dale Carnegie type can get up there and convince a divided nation to go forward with some united plan is laughable. this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 23, 2021 14:26:55 GMT -5
Then the idea we are nothing but a failing country is the reality. If this is acceptable, that there is no way we could have done better, and that asking for sacrifice for the greater good is too much for us, then we are truly past our peak, and might as well accept that.
American exceptionalism, right.
I refuse to accept that we couldn’t have done better. Trumps MAGA is nothing but a big joke
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2021 14:45:12 GMT -5
this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. I think that they’d have listened to the science. You’d still have the hold outs, but not as large a proportion of the population. Even had Trump been honest as to how severe COVID was after he was infected. Had he come back and said "I had the best medical care and it knocked me on my tail" and admitted how sick he truly was rather than have all his minions lie about him, this could have been an entirely different picture. But instead, he minimized it knowing he got treatment most others could not get and he STILL lied that it really wasn't that bad. Had Trump not continued to hold rallies up u til the election, it would have sent a message. It was business as usual for him. Trump does not know how to say “I’m sorry, I made a mistake”. And as a result, the US is paying for his arrogance. The country crashed and burned on his watch
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 23, 2021 14:51:51 GMT -5
you still had cases because so many states were NOT locked down.
and you have to love the "armchair quarterback" defense. the fact is that we HAD NO QUARTERBACK. if we did, we would have had a coordinated approach that saves lives. if you don't believe that, I guess that is ok. but when your country fails to do as good a job as 180 other countries, you can't just sit there and dismiss the critique as "second guessing". not without being laughed out of the room, anyway.
When you spend 50 years tearing down the "other side", are you surprised that the President can't join the nation with a common goal? Besides, nobody could convince states/cities/counties to lockdown for months on end. Lockdowns are the equivalent of abstinence for teens, sure they work, but good luck getting compliance! So it's not even worth talking about it. Can you tell me what goal trump had other than to ignore corona abs hope it goes away in its own?
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 23, 2021 15:12:12 GMT -5
Then the idea we are nothing but a failing country is the reality. If this is acceptable, that there is no way we could have done better, and that asking for sacrifice for the greater good is too much for us, then we are truly past our peak, and might as well accept that. American exceptionalism, right. I refuse to accept that we couldn’t have done better. Trumps MAGA is nothing but a big joke Haven't you seen any of those documentaries about social media? Everyone in their little silo, echo chambers, only hearing what they want to hear. It's the reason Dems couldn't believe they lost in 2016, the reason the GOP thought they won in 2020, it's the reason people don't use vaccines, etc. Throw in general distrust of media and politicians, I'm not sure how the divide is a surprise to anyone. FDR's clone is not going to change all that with an inspirational weekly fireside chat. I think you think that I'm defending Trump, but I'm not. I could care less about Donald Trump, but you all seem to need to find a boogey man so you float theories of how many lives that could've been saved if we did X, Y, Z. I'm not sure why you're even bothering, what's the point? I remember the GOP making fun of the HHS back during the swine flu days for telling people to sneeze into their arm. Do you even remember how divisive the country was back then? Maybe WAY down the line, you'll get a leader that can unite both sides. In the meantime, it's never going to happen.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 23, 2021 15:21:02 GMT -5
Defeatism. We have a number of big problems coming our way. We will continue down the path of decay if we do not demand more from our leaders. I know all about social media, etc. it will s all an excuse not to do more. We can either accept the status quo or demand better. But, if we continue to believe there is nothing we can do, and elect craven representatives(Ted Cruz being example #1 at the moment), we will continue our slide into irrelevance, and we will have the Chinese century.
I am not, nor have I been a registered Democrat. I do not agree with much of the progressive agenda. However, there is only one party trying to make policies and address problems. Republicans have become the party of no, and have no ideas left. Giving in to thinking there is nothing to be done and voting for them is a recipe for disaster(as we have seen.
I refuse to accept the status quo as the best we can do
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 23, 2021 15:25:26 GMT -5
this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. Possibly not but since they are more knowledgable about how government works and aren't solely invested in their media persona/ratings I imagine they would have done a hell of a better job mobilizing. Obama and Biden wrote an entire freaking handbook on how to handle just this kind of scenario. So not sure how you are going to sit there and claim they couldn't have done a better job on a national level. The goal wasn't to have everyone hold hangs and give the world a Coke. Look what happen to our supply chains, access to PPE, the hospital systems, the ability to test, the ability to contact trace. You seriously don't think that someone at the helm that knew what the hell they were doing would have made things better?
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 23, 2021 15:40:07 GMT -5
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. Possibly not but since they are more knowledgable about how government works and aren't solely invested in their media persona/ratings I imagine they would have done a hell of a better job mobilizing. Obama and Biden wrote an entire freaking handbook on how to handle just this kind of scenario. So not sure how you are going to sit there and claim they couldn't have done a better job on a national level. The goal wasn't to have everyone hold hangs and give the world a Coke. Look what happen to our supply chains, access to PPE, the hospital systems, the ability to test, the ability to contact trace. You seriously don't think that someone at the helm that knew what the hell they were doing would have made things better? I think it's well documented that the PPE reserve put in place by GWB after SARS was depleted during H1N1 and never replenished by Obama or Trump. If you try to get what you need for an entire country when the pandemic has started and while Chinese factories were likely closed for the Chinese New Year (and hampered by COVID), well I don't think you're going to have very good luck. We were doomed from the start. Hospitals were complaining about the lack of PPE before anything was happening, not sure what is going on there. You don't even have enough to get you through a small crisis, let alone a bit one
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 16:18:50 GMT -5
this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. you are moving the goalposts. I didn't say inspired. I said strong.
and I would say that ANY ONE OF THOSE CHOICES would have been stronger in the face of this pandemic than President Fake News. any one of those presidents would have got on the phone with all (50) governors and coordinated a response. any of them would have been treating it seriously rather than downplaying the disease, and leaving the response up to the states. all of them would have asked people to wear their masks, take the science seriously, and prepare for the worst.
a superior response would have looked like SK. we would now sit at 9000 dead. you read that right. 9000. an AVERAGE response would have killed 100k. that would put us in the same category as Turkey, Libya, and Iran. not great, but not bad. but no, we didn't even do that. we fucked the goat. there is no other way of framing it. our response was worse than pitiful. it literally could not have been worse. even countries that did nothing did better than we did.
is that good enough for you? because it is not good enough for me. and i won't accept any apologizing for it. we need to admit that we were THE WORST on this, and decide whether or not we are content being the worst. i am not. but apparently you are.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 16:25:47 GMT -5
incidentally, this was entirely predictable back in March, when Trump started talking about this being a "Democrat plot brought in from China", or whatever sort of bullshit Trump was spouting. it was obvious how this would go. the anti-maskers were going to make sure that the better part of a million of us would die so that they could pretend this was a conspiracy. and i am sorry to be so blunt and mean about it, but that is how i see it. the GOP engaged in lies which killed over half a million Americans and nearly overturned an election due to an angry, mostly maskless mob.
it was a sickening display, but you seem to think that we should all just laugh it off and get over it.
ain't gonna happen.
edit: i want to just add one final thing. since Clinton was the alternative to Trump, let's just consider how she would have responded.
one might guess that her experience with the Clinton Foundation might have served her well in the pandemic. if you don't know what i am talking about, it is probably because the story never made it to the news. but to think that Clinton would not have outperformed Trump on this issue is complete foolishness. particularly without the competition from President Fake News.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Feb 23, 2021 16:58:05 GMT -5
Then the idea we are nothing but a failing country is the reality. If this is acceptable, that there is no way we could have done better, and that asking for sacrifice for the greater good is too much for us, then we are truly past our peak, and might as well accept that. American exceptionalism, right. I refuse to accept that we couldn’t have done better. Trumps MAGA is nothing but a big joke Haven't you seen any of those documentaries about social media? Everyone in their little silo, echo chambers, only hearing what they want to hear. It's the reason Dems couldn't believe they lost in 2016, the reason the GOP thought they won in 2020, it's the reason people don't use vaccines, etc. Throw in general distrust of media and politicians, I'm not sure how the divide is a surprise to anyone. FDR's clone is not going to change all that with an inspirational weekly fireside chat. I think you think that I'm defending Trump, but I'm not. I could care less about Donald Trump, but you all seem to need to find a boogey man so you float theories of how many lives that could've been saved if we did X, Y, Z. I'm not sure why you're even bothering, what's the point? I remember the GOP making fun of the HHS back during the swine flu days for telling people to sneeze into their arm. Do you even remember how divisive the country was back then? Maybe WAY down the line, you'll get a leader that can unite both sides. In the meantime, it's never going to happen. Considering John Podesta came out in election night, followed by Hillary’s concession speech the next day, your comment the Demos didn’t believe they lost in 2016 is utter bullshit. That’s just a Repo-Con talking point and they are no longer known for veracity.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 23, 2021 16:58:59 GMT -5
incidentally, this was entirely predictable back in March, when Trump started talking about this being a "Democrat plot brought in from China", or whatever sort of bullshit Trump was spouting. it was obvious how this would go. the anti-maskers were going to make sure that the better part of a million of us would die so that they could pretend this was a conspiracy. and i am sorry to be so blunt and mean about it, but that is how i see it. the GOP engaged in lies which killed over half a million Americans and nearly overturned an election due to an angry, mostly maskless mob.
it was a sickening display, but you seem to think that we should all just laugh it off and get over it.
ain't gonna happen.
edit: i want to just add one final thing. since Clinton was the alternative to Trump, let's just consider how she would have responded.
one might guess that her experience with the Clinton Foundation might have served her well in the pandemic. if you don't know what i am talking about, it is probably because the story never made it to the news. but to think that Clinton would not have outperformed Trump on this issue is complete foolishness. particularly without the competition from President Fake News. If you consider that Chelsea has a graduate degree in Public Health, even if she wasn't an official advisor Hilary would have had an educated person to bounce ideas off of, rather than My Pillow Guy. The ONLY person who could have possibly done a worse job of this is Mike Pence, considering the disaster that happened under his watch with regards to AIDs in IN when he was governor. But even then, I'd like to think (hope??) he could have learned from his mistakes.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
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Post by dondub on Feb 23, 2021 17:01:57 GMT -5
this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. The crazy one is you implying that all of the other major players would have failed like Trump did. Complete nonsense to suggest that. There can only be one shittiest POTUS of all time and Donald the failure is it. The response from those other parties would have been just fine. No downplaying...no 40% of the worldwide false statements made by any of them.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 23, 2021 17:03:14 GMT -5
this is not an intellectual argument, Ryan. i already mentioned SK and NZ as examples of what strong leadership looks like. it worked. but that didn't seem to incite anything other than ridicule in you, so let me try another.
the US had arguably the worst leadership in our history between 1921 and 1932 in Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. if you look at each of these guys individually, you can find atrocious things about them, but collectively, they were horrendous. this left the country in a very weakened state- a state which MANY would have described as you did above.
then came FDR. arguably the best president we ever had, and a leader who we as a nation re-elected three times. he was an effective leader. he came after horrendous and disillusioning leadership. to think that this can't be done here is cynical to a degree i find pitiful.
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. The country is not all or nothing. It isnt that EVERYONE would be wearing a mask, but would the number be 10% higher or 15% higher? Under another leader, we would not have had zero deaths. But would we have less than half a million and counting? I would bet money the situation would have been less painful under someone else.
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 17:29:29 GMT -5
Then the idea we are nothing but a failing country is the reality. If this is acceptable, that there is no way we could have done better, and that asking for sacrifice for the greater good is too much for us, then we are truly past our peak, and might as well accept that. American exceptionalism, right. I refuse to accept that we couldn’t have done better. Trumps MAGA is nothing but a big joke Haven't you seen any of those documentaries about social media? Everyone in their little silo, echo chambers, only hearing what they want to hear. It's the reason Dems couldn't believe they lost in 2016, the reason the GOP thought they won in 2020, it's the reason people don't use vaccines, etc. Throw in general distrust of media and politicians, I'm not sure how the divide is a surprise to anyone. FDR's clone is not going to change all that with an inspirational weekly fireside chat. I think you think that I'm defending Trump, but I'm not. I could care less about Donald Trump, but you all seem to need to find a boogey man so you float theories of how many lives that could've been saved if we did X, Y, Z. I'm not sure why you're even bothering, what's the point? I remember the GOP making fun of the HHS back during the swine flu days for telling people to sneeze into their arm. Do you even remember how divisive the country was back then? Maybe WAY down the line, you'll get a leader that can unite both sides. In the meantime, it's never going to happen. really? you don't know?
well, there are two reasons. one is to learn from this tragic mistake. nothing more than that. to understand what happened, and why it happened.
the second, at least for me, is to decide whether we can learn from it. if we decide we can't learn from it, then this WILL happen again, and one out of 300 of us WILL die again, and there is not a thing we can do about it. well, there is ONE thing we can do:
we can move somewhere that prioritizes things like this, rather than just letting people die by essentially doing nothing. Costa Rica seems nice.
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 23, 2021 17:37:30 GMT -5
If you think Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, or Joe Biden would've inspired the nation to wear masks and lockdown you're crazy. You all are not dealing in reality, people rallied after 9/11 for a few weeks before the fighting started again. That's about how long they rallied around fighting the pandemic. The crazy one is you implying that all of the other major players would have failed like Trump did. Complete nonsense to suggest that. There can only be one shittiest POTUS of all time and Donald the failure is it. The response from those other parties would have been just fine. No downplaying...no 40% of the worldwide false statements made by any of them. it is so nihilistic and cynical that it is barely worth a rebuttal.
it is like saying that nobody could have done better than Lamar Odom. it literally makes no sense. and Trump is no Lamar Odom. he never showed that much promise, and he never had that much achievement. I can't think of an example, because Trump is the example. he is the poster child for how to not run things. he will be the brunt of jokes for a century. unless you live in the panhandle or something.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Feb 23, 2021 17:40:01 GMT -5
Haven't you seen any of those documentaries about social media? Everyone in their little silo, echo chambers, only hearing what they want to hear. It's the reason Dems couldn't believe they lost in 2016, the reason the GOP thought they won in 2020, it's the reason people don't use vaccines, etc. Throw in general distrust of media and politicians, I'm not sure how the divide is a surprise to anyone. FDR's clone is not going to change all that with an inspirational weekly fireside chat. I think you think that I'm defending Trump, but I'm not. I could care less about Donald Trump, but you all seem to need to find a boogey man so you float theories of how many lives that could've been saved if we did X, Y, Z. I'm not sure why you're even bothering, what's the point? I remember the GOP making fun of the HHS back during the swine flu days for telling people to sneeze into their arm. Do you even remember how divisive the country was back then? Maybe WAY down the line, you'll get a leader that can unite both sides. In the meantime, it's never going to happen. really? you don't know?
well, there are two reasons. one is to learn from this tragic mistake. nothing more than that. to understand what happened, and why it happened.
the second, at least for me, is to decide whether we can learn from it. if we decide we can't learn from it, then this WILL happen again, and one out of 300 of us WILL die again, and there is not a thing we can do about it. well, there is ONE thing we can do:
we can move somewhere that prioritizes things like this, rather than just letting people die by essentially doing nothing. Costa Rica seems nice.
I will be the first to admit medicine has made mistakes in the past year dealing with this. But we will analyze them, learn from them, and hopefully apply the lessons to the n xlt pandemic. However, unless politicians and our institutions do the same, our doing this means nothing. I agree with you, it is mandatory we examine what went wrong. Doing anything less is irresponsible, and dare I say criminal
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 24, 2021 9:39:50 GMT -5
The crazy one is you implying that all of the other major players would have failed like Trump did. Complete nonsense to suggest that. There can only be one shittiest POTUS of all time and Donald the failure is it. The response from those other parties would have been just fine. No downplaying...no 40% of the worldwide false statements made by any of them. it is so nihilistic and cynical that it is barely worth a rebuttal.
it is like saying that nobody could have done better than Lamar Odom. it literally makes no sense. and Trump is no Lamar Odom. he never showed that much promise, and he never had that much achievement. I can't think of an example, because Trump is the example. he is the poster child for how to not run things. he will be the brunt of jokes for a century. unless you live in the panhandle or something.
Barely worth a rebuttal, but you usually respond about 3x for every message that is posted..lol.
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