for those of you in higher education

[giramomma]

Well, this is where I struggle.  Perhaps we should have all just done what Sweden did, and let the chips fall where they may? Life as usual? Take your chances with getting sick?  It appears now that SIP hasn't really mattered anyway, since we're very close to the peak days in April, in terms of number of new cases a day nationally.

ETA: Then maybe the universities should have just spent their time making sure lawyers drafted up really tight waivers that released the school from any liability? That certainly would have be financially the better choice. For the University that is.

[oped]

SIP works as long as you SIP. We could be all using masks, testing much more and contract tracing... but this is merica..

ETA Sweden is at 518 deaths per million we are 383... so an extra 46,000 people. Sweden is under UK France and Italy though.

[pulmonarymd]

Sweden has more deaths, and when they looked at antibody testing, they were no farther along the way to herd immunity than the U.K. was. So it was not really a success

[giramomma]

Jun 25, 2020 20:48:39 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sweden has more deaths, and when they looked at antibody testing, they were no farther along the way to herd immunity than the U.K. was. So it was not really a success

I understand that.

I'm not sure what other choices there are. We can't ask/expect college kids to be responsible. It also seems like some parents prefer their kids go to face-to-face courses even in a pandemic. 

What other option do we have?

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 25, 2020 22:51:33 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jun 25, 2020 20:48:39 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sweden has more deaths, and when they looked at antibody testing, they were no farther along the way to herd immunity than the U.K. was. So it was not really a success

I understand that.

I'm not sure what other choices there are. We can't ask/expect college kids to be responsible. It also seems like some parents prefer their kids go to face-to-face courses even in a pandemic. 

What other option do we have?

I am in this boat right now. My son will be a senior. Did remote learning this semester. It is not the same experience. What we were doing earlier in the pandemic was paving the way to being able to have more options come the fall. The failure of leadership emphasizing the necessity of continuing along the reasonable path, and providing a positive example has led to our dilemma now. Schools are between a rock and a hard place. Stay remote, and have a whole lot of unhappy students, and likely have financial difficulty. Or have in person classes and risk a disaster due to spread. There is no right answer. But if the EU keeps its numbers down, and can restart classes in the fall, we will have a preventable disaster from an educational standpoint.


I think we can ask college kids to be responsible. Mine has been. I do not think that is too high a bar. But they need to be asked, and the people they look up to have to set a good example 

[oped]

I don’t see college kids being any less responsible as a group then the many full grown adults out there...

[TheOtherMe]

The University of Colorado has put their covid restrictions in to their code of conduct.  After enough violations, students can be kicked out of school.

They even put attending large parties (with a defined number of people) in the code of conduct.  

ETA:  Every student is required to take a course this fall on coronavirus.  Part of it is to teach them about social distancing, masks, etc.

[pulmonarymd]

Good for them

[Deleted]

Got some encouraging news from a parent orientation person today when I asked about all the classes going to online.

The school room scheduling system software started with rooms for classes. Since then, it changed most to the default of "online". When they figure out the room for an in person class, it will be updated. Some classes may also change times from what was posted at registration. This is to spread out the classes so less people are in the building/changing classes/etc. at the same time. This is supposed to be finalized by July 2. So....log on after July 2 to see what updates have been made to your schedule.

So, just maybe he will have some in-person or at least hybrid of some sort.  She also said they were waiting on changes that may take place in regards to the social distancing which may go to 3 feet which would up the capacity allowances from the current 20%.  

[thyme4change]

Jun 25, 2020 18:22:09 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Jun 25, 2020 16:15:39 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I don't think online classes are really protecting anyone but the professors...which I'm sure is the main consideration.  I doubt the students are all going to hole up in their dorm rooms and social distance while taking their online classes.

Nephew and niece-in-law are both college professors.  They have a newborn.  They have only gone for well baby appointments since the baby was born.

They do not want to be in a classroom with college students who have been frequenting bars--just like they did when they were in college.

My daughter's school did 3 surveys: 1 for students, 1 for parents and 1 for faculty. Parents and students voted overwhelmingly for a hybrid situation. Faculty, overwhelmingly all digital.

Tough nugs teachers!

[oped]

So kids were excited about the idea of going back something like 2 days a week, and must keep distanced, and will eat lunch and have a break in their room....  or did they think they were going back to 'normal'? 

[thyme4change]

I think most of them understood it wouldn't be the same, and they voted for hybrid, so they knew it wouldn't be 5 day-normal schedule.

I think the reason why students and parents want a return to school is that online teaching was disastrous, which tends to happen when something brand new and difficult is attempted with very limited warning and very little planning. Teachers probably feel like they can do a better job in a few months.

[Deleted]

Just heard Bowdoin will be Freshman only on campus this Fall, all other grade levels will be 100% remote except for a few seniors that needed to be there for projects.

[teen persuasion]

Jun 28, 2020 17:44:01 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I think most of them understood it wouldn't be the same, and they voted for hybrid, so they knew it wouldn't be 5 day-normal schedule.

I think the reason why students and parents want a return to school is that online teaching was disastrous, which tends to happen when something brand new and difficult is attempted with very limited warning and very little planning. Teachers probably feel like they can do a better job in a few months.

Yes, online at short notice was a bust.

But I'm not sure anything has been learned, for fall semester.  Everyone is still waiting to hear what the plan is, going forward. DH has to teach summer school, starting next week, and the administration is still fumbling. So he's still winging it.

Partially it's waiting for official word to come down from the governor, on what reopening schools looks like. Lots of other industries have been stymied when they *thought* they were next up to reopen, only to get the rules changed at the last minute, to get the rug pulled out from under them. There's still no guidance on school reopening - what's the point of making plans, if the governor controls the rule making, and hasn't made the rules yet? So we are ALL just waiting for clarity.

[thyme4change]

My husband is going to teach one class in the fall. It is his first time teaching at this school. He was freaking out about it being online, as he has never taught that way. I feel for him. He has been working to get in for so long, and now he has to deal with this. I told him to embrace it, and maybe it would work in his favor. He might be able to adapt better than some long established teachers, and it might make him valuable.

[giramomma]

So. On my campus, the ONLY thing that has been open have been research labs. I just got notification today that two students working in labs (in engineering), have tested positive for Covid.

So. I'm really getting to the point where I do think the best course of action is just to go completely back to normal and let the chips fall where they may. I would assume that's not a normal choice to be made during a pandemic. 

[oped]

This parent won’t allow her child to go back to that. We are seriously contemplating a year’s absence at this point. No student with health needs returns is my guess. Even minor ones. 

Im also not sure what liability would say? I assume each kid signs a waiver?

How do colleges handle surges ... do they have enough pandemic isolation housing? Do their towns have enough hospital beds? Do they send them home as new vectors? 

[oped]

Jun 30, 2020 15:33:09 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My husband is going to teach one class in the fall. It is his first time teaching at this school. He was freaking out about it being online, as he has never taught that way. I feel for him. He has been working to get in for so long, and now he has to deal with this. I told him to embrace it, and maybe it would work in his favor. He might be able to adapt better than some long established teachers, and it might make him valuable.

Does he need some pointers? What kind of class? 

[giramomma]

Jul 1, 2020 8:05:19 GMT -5 oped said:

This parent won’t allow her child to go back to that. We are seriously contemplating a year’s absence at this point. No student with health needs returns is my guess. Even minor ones. 

Im also not sure what liability would say? I assume each kid signs a waiver?

How do colleges handle surges ... do they have enough pandemic isolation housing? Do their towns have enough hospital beds? Do they send them home as new vectors? 

Yes. I think universities will need to have waivers signed.

I see universities in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I mean, parents and kids don't want online courses. So, you either risk getting covid or you shut universities down, except for specific online initiatives. IE, my programs have been online only or the past 20 years. They will continue be online...there's no worrying about changing expectations.

There's no budget slack for universities to run at half capacity. Either at the university level or the state level. Maybe private schools can dip into funds or whatever to keep them afloat. We don't have that luxury.

At my university, they are taking on-campus conference centers and keeping them closed. When we were shut down this spring, one of conference centers (where my office used to be), was designated as building to isolate folks with covid. 

My city had enough hospital beds. We saw medical offices open up for non-essential procedures while we were sheltering in place...about a month before all requirements were lifted. 

[flamingo]

I live and work in the town that's been on the news for having someone with COVID go to Planet Fitness and expose 200+ people while there. This PF is frequented by a lot of college kids. Even if the college kids don't go there, they pack into the student rec center, which we've been told will be open in the fall. There's no way this is going to end well. We keep hearing that we are going to rely on the students to make good decisions. And while I want to believe they will, history has shown that some certainly won't.

I agree with Gira that universities are damned if they do, damned if they don't. As I sit through our weekly townhall type discussions on this, you've got one set of people who are adamant that we must open and make this work. Then, on the other side, you've got the group that is adamant that we must stay physically closed and move everything online. Those that want us to open, also want us to reduce tuition, but then when we had to furlough some people this summer, those same people were pissed because we should save money elsewhere and not by contributing to the states unemployment. To add to all of that, I live in a state that is very "you can't force me to wear a mask, it's a death trap, MY RIGHTS!" Certainly not everyone, but all it takes is a handful of students who feel this way for it to become a disaster. The university is supplying masks to faculty, staff, and students, and requiring that we wear them when around others (in class, in the hallways, etc). But I have a feeling that monitoring that is going to be a nightmare. 

There are no good answers. And while we talk about isolating students who test positive, I don't how that's actually going to work. We currently have enough hospital beds, but once the students are back? If we have a surge, it could be a problem. 

[giramomma]

I also wonder, since it's the young ones that are getting sick, if hospital beds are that critical anyway. It seems to me that young people don't have as severe of an experience as old people do.

 I'm also assuming folks over 60 aren't hanging out with college kids in bars. I mean if they are, there's some huge ick factors going on with a 60 year old trying to get down the pants of a 19 year old. Frankly, that grosses me out more than getting Covid.

[Deleted]

As a whole I'm not worried about the 50,000 young college students (including mine).  I do stress about the 3K some professors especially the ones in the high risk age group category.  A loss of students would be hard on a college, but a loss of Nobel prize winning professors?  Who teaches if some of these great minds that might be old and/or in poor health succumb?  It's not like you can just fill some of these positions easily. 

[Deleted]

DS's school sent an email yesterday that masks will be required in all indoor locations with a few exceptions for things like dorms, eating, labs where you're already wearing a respirator, and driving alone (yes, they're actually thinking they can enforce masking in cars....)

My son is fine with it.  His grandma is pitching a fit.

[debthaven]

I'm also assuming folks over 60 aren't hanging out with college kids in bars.

Agreed. But they're seeing the college kids in class the next day, or talking to them in the hallways, or standing in line to buy lunch.

[Deleted]

The more we act like this pandemic isn't deadly and contagious, the longer this will go on. According to Fauci's testimony yesterday, so called "herd immunity" if even possible would take multiple years and kill millions of people in the process.

I'd like to see EVERYTHING closed that's not essential at least long enough to get a handle on the pandemic and make some plans to test, trace, and isolate. He seemed to insinuate that if we don't be very careful with schools, then the pandemic could get a lot worse.

I think until the plans to control COVID are in place, any school or other large gatherings are just asking to spread the virus and drag this process on longer and longer. 

It's not as much about the few young people who get sick, it's about those who are asymptomatic walking around spreading the virus to all the teachers, cleaners, dorm babysitters, restaurant workers, grocery workers, and everyone else around the school.

And, when you fly people in/out how that won't make things even worse is impossible for me to see.

[thyme4change]

Jul 1, 2020 8:06:05 GMT -5 oped said:

Jun 30, 2020 15:33:09 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My husband is going to teach one class in the fall. It is his first time teaching at this school. He was freaking out about it being online, as he has never taught that way. I feel for him. He has been working to get in for so long, and now he has to deal with this. I told him to embrace it, and maybe it would work in his favor. He might be able to adapt better than some long established teachers, and it might make him valuable.

Does he need some pointers? What kind of class? 

I sent you a PM. It said sending and then asked me if I wanted to discard a blank message. So if you don't get it - let me know.

[shanendoah]

We just announced our plans for fall this week. No class over 50 students will be in person. Those will all be online. Smaller classes will be moved into the larger classrooms to allow for more distancing. Class times will be spread out, so that there aren't a ton of kids in the hallways between classes. I think some classes may even be "on Mondays, students whose last names begin with A-M will be in class and students whose last names begin with N-Z will be online. On Wednesdays, that will switch." Most labs are still in person, because the lab work can't really be done remotely or without special equipment.

But, our campus is also leaving a lot of questions up to the different units. Our county went to Phase 2 two weeks ago. It wasn't until late last week that central campus went to Phase 2. But the different colleges have to apply to move to Phase 2. The College of Engineering is still in Phase 1 and hasn't even applied to move to Phase 2 yet.

And our faculty were asked how they wanted to teach their classes. Students will not be required to be on campus for any class, and we will not force faculty (or staff) to be on campus if they don't feel safe. But each faculty got to consider their own situation and the class they were going to teach. And if they didn't feel safe coming on campus, but the class was one that really needed an in-person component, they could work with their department to make sure that there was teaching coverage to make sure the class was being taught in an effective manner.

[oped]

Sons school seems most adaptable. But then daughters hasn’t said as much concrete... I think they are waiting for NY guidance.

Personally I wish we had better data. Maybe once Florida starts reporting hospitalizations? Still need to get more actuate age category data.

[giramomma]

So, my team relies on student help (working at a distance). We found out this morning that one of our students' roommates came down with covid, and so our student help needs to move home for a while.

Hanging out inside bars is now prohibited in my county. We'll see if that helps.

[oped]

So I emailed some specific questions to daughter's uni and basically got a 'you'll know when we know' response...