But just how do you fix the economy?

[jerseygirl]

Apr 2, 2020 16:19:16 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 2, 2020 16:12:40 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

RNA not DNA virus
Would be surprised if hold up is licensing or FDA since so many are working to put together a serology test
Might be paucity of antibodies? Unusual feature of antigen??
Whatever really hoping this comes quickly as do many in the medical and government

I knew that, mistyped and corrected it.

Mt Sinai has released a pre print of a publication in a peer reviewed journal and it is very complete about antibody testing.  I posted this 2 weeks ago.  The article is very complete, read it yourself.  The testing is not difficult, the assay itself has been done since the 1980s.  Considering I could easily test 500 samples myself in a day using this method, it is NOT a problem.  Someone is dragging their feet about this someplace.

Considering the amount of time to write the paper, submit is and a pre print is given out, I am positive the FDA has the data.  

That’s fabulous information- but very sad not being used

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 2, 2020 16:15:00 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Apr 2, 2020 16:10:34 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Actually, they do this every single time you give blood.  You are tested for a myriad of diseases and are informed if you come back positive for things like Hep B and HIV, and referred to your doctor. 

Mass testing is not that difficult.  You change out gown, mask and gloves.  Not a big deal.  We used to do this regularly in some of my research.  

Yes but did you do this for thousands in a day?? At multiple sites?? Can be done but not easily

Seriously?

i used to antibody test 200 samples for 10 different microbes myself.  Me, one person.  It is not hard.  

[pulmonarymd]

Fixing the economy now requires we have some semblance of control on this epidemic. If we open things up, and infections skyrocket again, the pain will be worse. We need an infrastructure program to fix our decaying infrastructure along the lines of what we did during the Great Depression. It will jump start the economy and repair what needs to be repaired. Until and unless we accept higher prices so things are made here, that won’t happen. If we figure a way to factor the cost transportation imposed on the environment, it could be cost effective to manufacture things here. But that would require accepting government intervention

[jerseygirl]

Apr 2, 2020 16:22:04 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 2, 2020 16:15:00 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Yes but did you do this for thousands in a day?? At multiple sites?? Can be done but not easily

Seriously?

i used to antibody test 200 samples for 10 different microbes myself.  Me, one person.  It is not hard.  

I understand about the actual testing, micro labs do this all the time . Think it’s getting samples from thousands of people st multiple sites that’s logistically difficult

Anyway, think having good accurate and fast serology test with certificate would go a long way to helping to start the economy by knowing who was immune, could go to work and not isolate

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Apr 2, 2020 16:28:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Apr 2, 2020 16:22:04 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Seriously?

i used to antibody test 200 samples for 10 different microbes myself.  Me, one person.  It is not hard.  

I understand about the actual testing, micro labs do this all the time . Think it’s getting samples from thousands of people st multiple sites that’s logistically difficult

Anyway, think having good accurate and fast serology test with certificate would go a long way to helping to start the economy by knowing who was immune, could go to work and not isolate

Just about any hospital testing lab has this capacity.  It’s really nothing special.  They test antibody titers to many things (like MMR, chicken pox, hep B, etc.) as a matter of course in a hospital lab, it is not just limited to research labs.

[jerseygirl]

Apr 2, 2020 16:48:17 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Apr 2, 2020 16:28:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

I understand about the actual testing, micro labs do this all the time . Think it’s getting samples from thousands of people st multiple sites that’s logistically difficult

Anyway, think having good accurate and fast serology test with certificate would go a long way to helping to start the economy by knowing who was immune, could go to work and not isolate

Just about any hospital testing lab has this capacity.  It’s really nothing special.  They test antibody titers to many things (like MMR, chicken pox, hep B, etc.) as a matter of course in a hospital lab, it is not just limited to research labs.

Yes I agreed with you the amount and variety of actual tests I labs
Still difficulty in getting samples from thousands of people/day at multiple sites

GOOD news - first COVID 19 antibody test just approved - think said company is Celex?

[Deleted]

I think the new economy will feature universal healthcare since many high-paid folks will now lose their jobs and find out how the other half lives when it comes to healthcare and affordability/access.

I think there will be different business models that emerge.

For example, it will be normal to order your groceries online and pick them up or have them delivered. I think browsing around a pretty store squeezing all the fruit and veggies will become a thing of the past.

I think there will be fewer restaurants and coffee shops once people realize how much cheaper it is to shop and cook your own food. As people learn how to cook from being stuck at home, they will like their own food better and realize it isn't rocket science.

I also hope/believe people will see it's not necessary to have one's hair and nails done constantly at such a high price. Also, perhaps, that getting work done doesn't rely on really expensive clothing and dry cleaning.

While jobs will be lost, I think with universal healthcare more people will open up their own small businesses. 

I also think people will take stock of their relationships, both for the good and the bad, after people are stuck at home with each other for long periods of time. Also, many parents may decide someone should stay home and parent their kids rather than expecting school, daycare, and sports programs to raise them.

I do think it will be at least two years before people can move freely and do many jobs. Surviving that is the biggest hurdle after dying from the virus.

[nidena]

One thing I wonder about...

There was a lot of talk about how many jobs were open/available.  I think it was 7 million at the beginning of January.

Now that they really no longer exist...or maybe they do since many of them were IT related but, for the ones that weren't...do you think that number will be considerably less?

I feel like there will be far fewer retail clothing establishments that come back from this.  And every single one of them had openings back then.  None were fully staffed.  I wonder what that will look like.

I mean, the "retail apocalypse" had a lot to do with companies not evolving their omnichannel-ness fast enough and it has really hit its peak in the past two weeks.  I don't think any bricks and mortar clothing stores are even open.

What do you think that will look like?  Do you see malls opening up fully, completely, and 100% across the nation?

[Deleted]

I think people will shop more online and sellers will realize there's a lot less overhead cost to sell directly to consumers. That's already been the trend and I think this will accelerate the process.

As for shopping malls, I've been watching one turn from traditional stores to a place where people go to the gym, have business meetings, etc... So, it's not like all physical spaces will disappear.

Thanks to simple to sell on sites like Amazon Homemade, Etsy(barf), etc... I think smaller makers and growers will have plenty of ability to compete and sell their own products.

I've always assumed when AI took over many people would start their own small or cottage businesses when they can't find a new job.

Once some people spend more time at home with their families and remember what it was like to eat homemade food and get enough sleep and see how much less expensive their lives could be, I really do think they may shift their lives permanently.

Of course, some people love working 100 hours a week and want huge bank balances, but there's a lot of people out there working at a job they hate just for the health insurance. I'd love to see a change in that, and have said the same thing since the 1990s when I was newly married and we couldn't get affordable health insurance. 

[jerseygirl]

Yes! Amen to universal health care

[countrygirl2]

Retail has been closing for over 2 years. It's hard to even buy clothing around here anymore, one of the reasons I'm going back to sewing.  but how long can I do it, I'm 74. I still see good with glasses. I can thread needles, remove stitches or whatever, so I'm fortunate, but still there will come a day.  I do not like buying shoes, I have to or clothing online, its send back and forth, back and forth as there is not standardization in sizes.  So that may be our only recourse but its not easy or preferable in my book. I have already seen changes I don't like. I miss going to malls, I shopped and enjoyed the activities. But you have to pay people enough to have disposable income. They only make enough to shop places like Walmart, so the other shops suffered. another disconnect is sizes, people are larger yet the "nice" stores did not want to cater to large women sizes. They consider a 12 or 14 large women. I saw that over and over. Produce for a group that is limited anymore and overlook the group that you have out there.  Lots of problems in retail to be dealt with. But the biggest is lack of affordable medical care and the huge disparity in wages. Most are making peanuts while the top is way way to high. This is going to bring us down in everyway in lack of tax collections and money offshored and not invested in anything. We need major overhauls in so many ways in the country. And I think what is happening right now is going to really bring all this to light.


 

[Tiny]

Apr 2, 2020 15:46:39 GMT -5 nidena said:

Apr 2, 2020 15:38:36 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I didn't watch much of the video... I will admit it set off my "oh god, bull shit...." detector  BECAUSE it seemed to making an arguement that sounded alot like "don't let your kid drink milk!  100% of criminals in prison drank milk as a child!"  which implies that any kid who drinks milk is destined for prison.    I had the funny feeling the 'argument' presented was based on an unsound arguent (a fallacy).   And I hate being played like that - so I stopped watching.  

As for "fixing the economy"  - I don't think there's a "oh we should do x" solution.  America use to be an argrarian economy and it transitioned (rather painfully) into an industrial economy and currently it's moved into a "service" economy (with a painful transition).    I doubt we should go back to an argrarian economy (although we do need farmers/livestock) and with how fast "industry" needs change - I don't think that would be a good plan either (what good is it if industrial jobs/buildings have a life span of 5 or 10 years?  I suspect the majority of jobs would be low paid and "temporary" as in once the product line is done so are all the people on the line - until the next product line comes out (but the old employees might not have the skills for it)... do you see where that's going?)  Perhaps if we had an unlimited resource that the world needed that would be the thing to base an economy on. Wait. we have people and brainpower.   A service economy needs people with money to consume the services.    If everyday people do not have money to spend on the "services" their neighbors provide... then we have a really lot of poor people working to support the upper classes that can afford the "services" the poor people provide.  And there's NO upward mobility. 

Since we're a service/consumer economy - in theory, once people start consuming again things will improve. Especially if the consuming happens to be services - like take out dinners and drinking at the bar and  live entertainment and new clothes and new stuff for their homes.  

I think the only type of economy that would weather the UNCHECKED world wide effects of something WORSE than COVID 19 would be an argrarian economy.   But then when big world wide disasters happen - my bet is on the subsistence  farmers  (really lo tech societies) coming out OK.. they live "hunkered down" and not reliant on much of anyone other then themselves and their neighbors.  This isn't an utopia - I wouldn't want to be a woman (or a child) or have a disability or have a crappy husband or crappy loser family members if I lived in such a society - and which one of us doesn't have atleast ONE of the things in my list?? 


 

He doesn't start talking about the economy until around minute 6, if I remember correctly.
I don't recall hearing anything that would be an analogy equivalent to the milk example.  He goes into fiat currency, corporation debt, and inevitable collapse. 

It wasn't an analogy - it's a type of fallacy and he did kind of use it.   The speaker in the video starts out with what sounds like the Fallacy of Equivocation.  When he uses the  the usage of coranavirus to make his point, for example.     And then he started talking about how a coronavirus couldn't be detected by tests  <-- kind of in the vein of the milk example.      I'm sorry but I wasn't gonna keep watching the video.  I've been burned enough times by people starting out with introductions to their topic that use various types of falacies.  Generally if someone has something to say that's important or wants to convey facts - they don't need to rope in an audience with a falacy (or two or three). 

[Tiny]

Apr 2, 2020 17:40:35 GMT -5 nidena said:

One thing I wonder about...

There was a lot of talk about how many jobs were open/available.  I think it was 7 million at the beginning of January.

Now that they really no longer exist...or maybe they do since many of them were IT related but, for the ones that weren't...do you think that number will be considerably less?

I feel like there will be far fewer retail clothing establishments that come back from this.  And every single one of them had openings back then.  None were fully staffed.  I wonder what that will look like.

I mean, the "retail apocalypse" had a lot to do with companies not evolving their omnichannel-ness fast enough and it has really hit its peak in the past two weeks.  I don't think any bricks and mortar clothing stores are even open.

What do you think that will look like?  Do you see malls opening up fully, completely, and 100% across the nation?

The thing about "job openings/available" is that it's hard to tell if they were really there.  I believe employers give information about what positions they have open to the government - even if they have little motivation to fill the positions.   It's a number and having open positions makes an employer LOOK like their business is making money and is successful.  

I haven't worked for many employers - but they've ALWAYS got open jobs.  They don't have any intention of filling some of them or they may take 12 months or more to find that "perfect accounting clerk".      Often times businesses will be "under staffed" with no intention of hiring more help (it's expensive to hire people and then let them go in 12 months when business drops).   I would be very skeptical of there being 7 million ACTUAL unfilled jobs in January of 2020.   

[nidena]

Apr 2, 2020 19:13:23 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 2, 2020 17:40:35 GMT -5 nidena said:

One thing I wonder about...

There was a lot of talk about how many jobs were open/available.  I think it was 7 million at the beginning of January.

Now that they really no longer exist...or maybe they do since many of them were IT related but, for the ones that weren't...do you think that number will be considerably less?

I feel like there will be far fewer retail clothing establishments that come back from this.  And every single one of them had openings back then.  None were fully staffed.  I wonder what that will look like.

I mean, the "retail apocalypse" had a lot to do with companies not evolving their omnichannel-ness fast enough and it has really hit its peak in the past two weeks.  I don't think any bricks and mortar clothing stores are even open.

What do you think that will look like?  Do you see malls opening up fully, completely, and 100% across the nation?

The thing about "job openings/available" is that it's hard to tell if they were really there.  I believe employers give information about what positions they have open to the government - even if they have little motivation to fill the positions.   It's a number and having open positions makes an employer LOOK like their business is making money and is successful.  

I haven't worked for many employers - but they've ALWAYS got open jobs.  They don't have any intention of filling some of them or they may take 12 months or more to find that "perfect accounting clerk".      Often times businesses will be "under staffed" with no intention of hiring more help (it's expensive to hire people and then let them go in 12 months when business drops).   I would be very skeptical of there being 7 million ACTUAL unfilled jobs in January of 2020.   

I don't think 7 million is all that out of reach but, in my brain, I imagine it being fast food, retail, grocery, drug stores i.e. minimum wage which is why they're probably open.  I know the various clothing stores that I worked at in the past 14 years ALL had open positions that they were trying to fill.  That was only three different stores, each in companies with hundreds of locations across the country.  Multiply that by all the stores that exist in most malls--that's definitely a few hundred thousand.  But, again, all minimum wage or very close to it.

[giramomma]

How do we fix the economy? We don't, because we can't. We as a society have lost the ability to problem solve for the greater good.

As individuals, we're too stupid, selfish, entitled, and stubborn.

We aren't interested in listening, learning, and figuring out the why's. We're more interested making sweeping assumptions based on our very limited individual experiences.

We like our old tired tapes more than we like change.

 

We want to be prevented from feeling the consequences of our choices.

This is really regardless of our socioeconomic status. Rich, poor, middleclass. It's all the same.

[gs11rmb]

Apr 2, 2020 17:21:43 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

I think the new economy will feature universal healthcare since many high-paid folks will now lose their jobs and find out how the other half lives when it comes to healthcare and affordability/access.

I think there will be different business models that emerge.

For example, it will be normal to order your groceries online and pick them up or have them delivered. I think browsing around a pretty store squeezing all the fruit and veggies will become a thing of the past.

I think there will be fewer restaurants and coffee shops once people realize how much cheaper it is to shop and cook your own food. As people learn how to cook from being stuck at home, they will like their own food better and realize it isn't rocket science.

I also hope/believe people will see it's not necessary to have one's hair and nails done constantly at such a high price. Also, perhaps, that getting work done doesn't rely on really expensive clothing and dry cleaning.

While jobs will be lost, I think with universal healthcare more people will open up their own small businesses. 

I also think people will take stock of their relationships, both for the good and the bad, after people are stuck at home with each other for long periods of time. Also, many parents may decide someone should stay home and parent their kids rather than expecting school, daycare, and sports programs to raise them.

I do think it will be at least two years before people can move freely and do many jobs. Surviving that is the biggest hurdle after dying from the virus.

I disagree.  I can't imagine a single person who has been stuck at home with their children deciding that they would rather make this their life than return to work  .

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2020 8:24:13 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Apr 2, 2020 17:21:43 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

I think the new economy will feature universal healthcare since many high-paid folks will now lose their jobs and find out how the other half lives when it comes to healthcare and affordability/access.

I think there will be different business models that emerge.

For example, it will be normal to order your groceries online and pick them up or have them delivered. I think browsing around a pretty store squeezing all the fruit and veggies will become a thing of the past.

I think there will be fewer restaurants and coffee shops once people realize how much cheaper it is to shop and cook your own food. As people learn how to cook from being stuck at home, they will like their own food better and realize it isn't rocket science.

I also hope/believe people will see it's not necessary to have one's hair and nails done constantly at such a high price. Also, perhaps, that getting work done doesn't rely on really expensive clothing and dry cleaning.

While jobs will be lost, I think with universal healthcare more people will open up their own small businesses. 

I also think people will take stock of their relationships, both for the good and the bad, after people are stuck at home with each other for long periods of time. Also, many parents may decide someone should stay home and parent their kids rather than expecting school, daycare, and sports programs to raise them.

I do think it will be at least two years before people can move freely and do many jobs. Surviving that is the biggest hurdle after dying from the virus.

I disagree.  I can't imagine a single person who has been stuck at home with their children deciding that they would rather make this their life than return to work  .

AMEN!!!

[hoops902]

"Fixing" the economy is likely rather simple.  Tell people they can go back out into the world and do things.  The economy isn't really "broken"...at least not as far as this specific event exists.  If we have any event that tells people not to go out and do things or buy things...that's going to impact the economy.  The "fix" is to tell people they can go out and do that stuff again.  

[movingforward]

Yeah, I think opening the world back up again will be a good start...

[movingforward]

Apr 2, 2020 17:21:43 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

I think the new economy will feature universal healthcare since many high-paid folks will now lose their jobs and find out how the other half lives when it comes to healthcare and affordability/access.

I think there will be different business models that emerge.

For example, it will be normal to order your groceries online and pick them up or have them delivered. I think browsing around a pretty store squeezing all the fruit and veggies will become a thing of the past.

I think there will be fewer restaurants and coffee shops once people realize how much cheaper it is to shop and cook your own food. As people learn how to cook from being stuck at home, they will like their own food better and realize it isn't rocket science.

I also hope/believe people will see it's not necessary to have one's hair and nails done constantly at such a high price. Also, perhaps, that getting work done doesn't rely on really expensive clothing and dry cleaning.

While jobs will be lost, I think with universal healthcare more people will open up their own small businesses. 

I also think people will take stock of their relationships, both for the good and the bad, after people are stuck at home with each other for long periods of time. Also, many parents may decide someone should stay home and parent their kids rather than expecting school, daycare, and sports programs to raise them.

I do think it will be at least two years before people can move freely and do many jobs. Surviving that is the biggest hurdle after dying from the virus.

Or they realize how much they REALLY hate cooking . I don't think people that don't like cooking learn to love it. You either like it or you don't. Those that don't like it may HAVE to do it due to the expense of eating out but I think once they have money again they will continue to eat out.

[hoops902]

Apr 3, 2020 12:16:00 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Apr 2, 2020 17:21:43 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

I think the new economy will feature universal healthcare since many high-paid folks will now lose their jobs and find out how the other half lives when it comes to healthcare and affordability/access.

I think there will be different business models that emerge.

For example, it will be normal to order your groceries online and pick them up or have them delivered. I think browsing around a pretty store squeezing all the fruit and veggies will become a thing of the past.

I think there will be fewer restaurants and coffee shops once people realize how much cheaper it is to shop and cook your own food. As people learn how to cook from being stuck at home, they will like their own food better and realize it isn't rocket science.

I also hope/believe people will see it's not necessary to have one's hair and nails done constantly at such a high price. Also, perhaps, that getting work done doesn't rely on really expensive clothing and dry cleaning.

While jobs will be lost, I think with universal healthcare more people will open up their own small businesses. 

I also think people will take stock of their relationships, both for the good and the bad, after people are stuck at home with each other for long periods of time. Also, many parents may decide someone should stay home and parent their kids rather than expecting school, daycare, and sports programs to raise them.

I do think it will be at least two years before people can move freely and do many jobs. Surviving that is the biggest hurdle after dying from the virus.

Or they realize how much they REALLY hate cooking . I don't think people that don't like cooking learn to love it. You either like it or you don't. Those that don't like it may HAVE to do it due to the expense of eating out but I think once they have money again they will continue to eat out.

Agreed...though I do think there will be fewer restaurants.  Food delivery has been a massively growing segment of the food industry...and the current situation may help them grab hold as they gain customers who may have otherwise been slower to go with food delivery.  But it won't likely be because people just decide to cook.  It's not as if people weren't aware that cooking is cheaper than eating out before this.