nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 14:13:15 GMT -5
Came across an interesting video and my question is: If the economy requires a complete revamp, what does that look like? Especially with how things are now, when most of the country is unemployed and locked down. I don't have much opinion on this, in that my knowledge of economics and finance is based in one each course in micro- and macro- so I'm really curious.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Apr 2, 2020 14:27:52 GMT -5
First step is to get rid of that useless POS occupying the White House. Joost sayin'...
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 14:30:32 GMT -5
First step is to get rid of that useless POS occupying the White House. Joost sayin'... Well, he's been there only a few years. That doesn't fix all the shit that happened or was put in place in the years...decades...gone by. Not defending him...he's a douche...just speaking to the facts of the matter.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 14:32:48 GMT -5
First step is to get rid of that useless POS occupying the White House. Joost sayin'... Has any politician really stepped up and did a great job?? No one in NY or NJ or congress How do these comments help anyone? There’s lots of people on these boards with small businesses, good jobs etc that might have constructive ideas to help others.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Apr 2, 2020 14:37:14 GMT -5
We need leadership right now. And, confidence that the man in charge knows what he's doing. Or at least listens to the advice of those around him. We currently have neither, so, until our country has that confidence, I don't see the economy moving in a positive direction. In fact, it could be quite awhile before we even get back to "normal", whatever that is.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Apr 2, 2020 14:54:02 GMT -5
Right now we focus on flattening the curve and trying to get people back to work as soon as possible. Come up with a test that will see who has or hasn't had it so those that have can get back out there because we can't afford to print money and ride this out for too long. I'm all for a change at the top but the political issues plaguing our country go back decades while Trump is a symptom and not the cause. By all accounts the feds and states have been unprepared for something like this for years and in some ways it's understandable given the scope. That said not having basic supplies when we spend what we do on healthcare is inexcusable. Long term we need to reduce the reliance on China as they don't play by the same rules as everyone else, get government spending under control and figure out how to address healthcare. Neither side has shown the ability to address any of these issues and the current situation sure isn't making me a fan of any kind of government run healthcare until they can address costs, lobbyists and so on.
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 15:34:47 GMT -5
Right now we focus on flattening the curve and trying to get people back to work as soon as possible. Come up with a test that will see who has or hasn't had it so those that have can get back out there because we can't afford to print money and ride this out for too long. I'm all for a change at the top but the political issues plaguing our country go back decades while Trump is a symptom and not the cause. By all accounts the feds and states have been unprepared for something like this for years and in some ways it's understandable given the scope. That said not having basic supplies when we spend what we do on healthcare is inexcusable. Long term we need to reduce the reliance on China as they don't play by the same rules as everyone else, get government spending under control and figure out how to address healthcare. Neither side has shown the ability to address any of these issues and the current situation sure isn't making me a fan of any kind of government run healthcare until they can address costs, lobbyists and so on. You should watch the video.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 2, 2020 15:38:36 GMT -5
I didn't watch much of the video... I will admit it set off my "oh god, bull shit...." detector BECAUSE it seemed to making an arguement that sounded alot like "don't let your kid drink milk! 100% of criminals in prison drank milk as a child!" which implies that any kid who drinks milk is destined for prison. I had the funny feeling the 'argument' presented was based on an unsound arguent (a fallacy). And I hate being played like that - so I stopped watching.
As for "fixing the economy" - I don't think there's a "oh we should do x" solution. America use to be an argrarian economy and it transitioned (rather painfully) into an industrial economy and currently it's moved into a "service" economy (with a painful transition). I doubt we should go back to an argrarian economy (although we do need farmers/livestock) and with how fast "industry" needs change - I don't think that would be a good plan either (what good is it if industrial jobs/buildings have a life span of 5 or 10 years? I suspect the majority of jobs would be low paid and "temporary" as in once the product line is done so are all the people on the line - until the next product line comes out (but the old employees might not have the skills for it)... do you see where that's going?) Perhaps if we had an unlimited resource that the world needed that would be the thing to base an economy on. Wait. we have people and brainpower. A service economy needs people with money to consume the services. If everyday people do not have money to spend on the "services" their neighbors provide... then we have a really lot of poor people working to support the upper classes that can afford the "services" the poor people provide. And there's NO upward mobility.
Since we're a service/consumer economy - in theory, once people start consuming again things will improve. Especially if the consuming happens to be services - like take out dinners and drinking at the bar and live entertainment and new clothes and new stuff for their homes.
I think the only type of economy that would weather the UNCHECKED world wide effects of something WORSE than COVID 19 would be an argrarian economy. But then when big world wide disasters happen - my bet is on the subsistence farmers (really lo tech societies) coming out OK.. they live "hunkered down" and not reliant on much of anyone other then themselves and their neighbors. This isn't an utopia - I wouldn't want to be a woman (or a child) or have a disability or have a crappy husband or crappy loser family members if I lived in such a society - and which one of us doesn't have atleast ONE of the things in my list??
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 15:41:21 GMT -5
One thing that needs to change is the reliance on China. Think what you want about Trump, he recognized that we’re far too reliant on China and started to reduce this. With 90% of our medicines (mostly generic) or the ingredients coming from either China or India we now see what a terrible mistake. Also masks, sterile clothing from China - now that’s critical result that hospitals don’t have enough. Country wide testing - our country has NEVER done this!!!! South Korea was able to do this because SK had SARS and realized a better system was needed. They had a system set up in advance to test large numbers of people AND MORE importantly- legally able to track by credit card and cell phone use people who came in contact with anyone who tested positive . Even SK was testing only symptomatic people for no cost. Anyone else who wanted to be tested had to pay equivalent of $125 England was even worse- first thought was no social distancing no isolation - until the Imperial model showed disaster, quickly decided to start same as us
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 2, 2020 15:44:00 GMT -5
I got to two minutes and twenty-six seconds before my bullshit detector was blaring so loudly that I could not hear what Mr. Avuncular was saying.
I think that I was unduly patient. I suspect that persons with any kind of medical training, or even more recent scientific training than myself would not have lasted nearly as long -- unless they are masochists.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 15:46:17 GMT -5
One thing that would help economy start is an accurate test for antibodies to Covid 19 and certificate These people could then go back to work and start leading normal lives. Many universities pharmaceutical companies worldwide are working to produce this. FDA now has experience to quickly approve, FDA is now set up to expedite approval - before this crisis wasn’t able. With the experience the US has gained in testing this can be accomplished
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 15:46:39 GMT -5
I didn't watch much of the video... I will admit it set off my "oh god, bull shit...." detector BECAUSE it seemed to making an arguement that sounded alot like "don't let your kid drink milk! 100% of criminals in prison drank milk as a child!" which implies that any kid who drinks milk is destined for prison. I had the funny feeling the 'argument' presented was based on an unsound arguent (a fallacy). And I hate being played like that - so I stopped watching. As for "fixing the economy" - I don't think there's a "oh we should do x" solution. America use to be an argrarian economy and it transitioned (rather painfully) into an industrial economy and currently it's moved into a "service" economy (with a painful transition). I doubt we should go back to an argrarian economy (although we do need farmers/livestock) and with how fast "industry" needs change - I don't think that would be a good plan either (what good is it if industrial jobs/buildings have a life span of 5 or 10 years? I suspect the majority of jobs would be low paid and "temporary" as in once the product line is done so are all the people on the line - until the next product line comes out (but the old employees might not have the skills for it)... do you see where that's going?) Perhaps if we had an unlimited resource that the world needed that would be the thing to base an economy on. Wait. we have people and brainpower. A service economy needs people with money to consume the services. If everyday people do not have money to spend on the "services" their neighbors provide... then we have a really lot of poor people working to support the upper classes that can afford the "services" the poor people provide. And there's NO upward mobility. Since we're a service/consumer economy - in theory, once people start consuming again things will improve. Especially if the consuming happens to be services - like take out dinners and drinking at the bar and live entertainment and new clothes and new stuff for their homes. I think the only type of economy that would weather the UNCHECKED world wide effects of something WORSE than COVID 19 would be an argrarian economy. But then when big world wide disasters happen - my bet is on the subsistence farmers (really lo tech societies) coming out OK.. they live "hunkered down" and not reliant on much of anyone other then themselves and their neighbors. This isn't an utopia - I wouldn't want to be a woman (or a child) or have a disability or have a crappy husband or crappy loser family members if I lived in such a society - and which one of us doesn't have atleast ONE of the things in my list?? He doesn't start talking about the economy until around minute 6, if I remember correctly. I don't recall hearing anything that would be an analogy equivalent to the milk example. He goes into fiat currency, corporation debt, and inevitable collapse.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Apr 2, 2020 15:49:42 GMT -5
Right now we focus on flattening the curve and trying to get people back to work as soon as possible. Come up with a test that will see who has or hasn't had it so those that have can get back out there because we can't afford to print money and ride this out for too long. I'm all for a change at the top but the political issues plaguing our country go back decades while Trump is a symptom and not the cause. By all accounts the feds and states have been unprepared for something like this for years and in some ways it's understandable given the scope. That said not having basic supplies when we spend what we do on healthcare is inexcusable. Long term we need to reduce the reliance on China as they don't play by the same rules as everyone else, get government spending under control and figure out how to address healthcare. Neither side has shown the ability to address any of these issues and the current situation sure isn't making me a fan of any kind of government run healthcare until they can address costs, lobbyists and so on. You should watch the video. Like others my BS meter went off way too early to make it all way the way through.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 15:50:56 GMT -5
Just started to listen to video- garbage!! The tests are for COVID 19, testing a unique section of RNA in the COVID 19 organism. Lots of foolishness out there
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 15:53:43 GMT -5
For those who didn't make it through, I understand. I was skeptical. I don't know the validity of the virus stuff but I don't think it's out of realm of possibility that there is such tremendous focus on the virus while other shit is going on.
Kind of like not getting any explanation about the disappearance of $2T back in, say, Sept 2001 because another event took place that might have taken the focus off that.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 2, 2020 16:01:27 GMT -5
One thing that would help economy start is an accurate test for antibodies to Covid 19 and certificate These people could then go back to work and start leading normal lives. Many universities pharmaceutical companies worldwide are working to produce this. FDA now has experience to quickly approve, FDA is now set up to expedite approval - before this crisis wasn’t able. With the experience the US has gained in testing this can be accomplished This has already been done, and the FDA is dragging their feet on this. Making this type of test is not difficult, I have made dozens, if not hundreds of them myself. I think that the longest it has EVER taken me was 3 weeks, and the hardest part was finding the proper negative and positive controls. Some labs had considerably more access and people than just single me. What I want to know is why it is taking so long? Considering what has gone on in the past, my gut is that it has something to do with licensing and $$ transfer.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 16:02:56 GMT -5
One thing that needs to change is the reliance on China. Think what you want about Trump, he recognized that we’re far too reliant on China and started to reduce this. With 90% of our medicines (mostly generic) or the ingredients coming from either China or India we now see what a terrible mistake. Also masks, sterile clothing from China - now that’s critical result that hospitals don’t have enough. Country wide testing - our country has NEVER done this!!!! South Korea was able to do this because SK had SARS and realized a better system was needed. They had a system set up in advance to test large numbers of people AND MORE importantly- legally able to track by credit card and cell phone use people who came in contact with anyone who tested positive . Even SK was testing only symptomatic people for no cost. Anyone else who wanted to be tested had to pay equivalent of $125 England was even worse- first thought was no social distancing no isolation - until the Imperial model showed disaster, quickly decided to start same as us Um, we make sure kids have certain vacinations before they are allowed in school at the grade school, high school, and college level. And I'm pretty sure I had to have proof that I had a TB test when I started working in the 1980's... maybe I'm confusing this with stories from my older siblings who had to have proof they did not have TB to get a job. And for the past 10 years or so - getting a new job meant passing a drug test. And schools do drug tests. And in some states people on welfare have to submit to drug tests. I'm assuming there is not a 2 week or more wait for the results of these tests. So, no, I would think that mass testing for something in American is totally doable. We can't make up something and test for it on the drop of a dime... but we can and do do it. Yes we’re just starting, yes drug tests are done but only in small numbers, nothing like the amounts we’re looking st and the drug tests have been developed over years. The genetic information for Covid 19 was only determined and published about 2 months ago, and first tests relied on mailing to labs with specialized machines. Now there is a rapid test but still reliant on special machine. All this development is amazingly fast including FDA approval. Can’t just throw some chemicals together and make a test Then the difficulty of setting up mass testing with people who can set up - sterile masks, clothing that needed to be changed after each person was tested. We’re doing better at this. South Kotea went beyond this - legally able to track each person who was positive cell phone and credit card info- Really??! In the US, did the general public in the US give permission to have their credit cards and cell phones tracked?? Tracked by individuals identity, not just general gps for phones Would you agree with our government having your all of your cc and phone info ?? That’s what would be needed
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 2, 2020 16:05:14 GMT -5
I lasted exactly 1 minute.
Considering the testing is done looking for COVID 19, using that organism’s unique RNA, his very first statement was incorrect. Pass.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 2, 2020 16:09:43 GMT -5
One thing that would help economy start is an accurate test for antibodies to Covid 19 and certificate These people could then go back to work and start leading normal lives. Many universities pharmaceutical companies worldwide are working to produce this. FDA now has experience to quickly approve, FDA is now set up to expedite approval - before this crisis wasn’t able. With the experience the US has gained in testing this can be accomplished u You keep spouting this nonsense. The FDA has an expedited process and an emergency process. They didn’t see the need to do so, and why, because the people at the top didn’t see their importance. HIV changed the system so we could both approve and study at the same time for emergency health threats. The process can be sped up. God help us if they don’t do it for what we need now to get out of this. See how fast and with so little data they approved hydroxychloroquin for this? I wonder why?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 2, 2020 16:10:34 GMT -5
Um, we make sure kids have certain vacinations before they are allowed in school at the grade school, high school, and college level. And I'm pretty sure I had to have proof that I had a TB test when I started working in the 1980's... maybe I'm confusing this with stories from my older siblings who had to have proof they did not have TB to get a job. And for the past 10 years or so - getting a new job meant passing a drug test. And schools do drug tests. And in some states people on welfare have to submit to drug tests. I'm assuming there is not a 2 week or more wait for the results of these tests. So, no, I would think that mass testing for something in American is totally doable. We can't make up something and test for it on the drop of a dime... but we can and do do it. Yes we’re just starting, yes drug tests are done but only in small numbers, nothing like the amounts we’re looking st and the drug tests have been developed over years. The genetic information for Covid 19 was only determined and published about 2 months ago, and first tests relied on mailing to labs with specialized machines. Now there is a rapid test but still reliant on special machine. All this development is amazingly fast including FDA approval. Can’t just throw some chemicals together and make a test Then the difficulty of setting up mass testing with people who can set up - sterile masks, clothing that needed to be changed after each person was tested. We’re doing better at this. South Kotea went beyond this - legally able to track each person who was positive cell phone and credit card info- Really??! In the US, did the general public in the US give permission to have their credit cards and cell phones tracked?? Tracked by individuals identity, not just general gps for phones Would you agree with our government having your all of your cc and phone info ?? That’s what would be needed Actually, they do this every single time you give blood. You are tested for a myriad of diseases and are informed if you come back positive for things like Hep B and HIV, and referred to your doctor. Mass testing is not that difficult. You change out gown, mask and gloves. Not a big deal. We used to do this regularly in some of my research.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 16:12:40 GMT -5
RNA not DNA virus Would be surprised if hold up is licensing or FDA since so many are working to put together a serology test Might be paucity of antibodies? Unusual feature of antigen?? Whatever really hoping this comes quickly as do many in the medical and government
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 2, 2020 16:14:00 GMT -5
One thing that would help economy start is an accurate test for antibodies to Covid 19 and certificate These people could then go back to work and start leading normal lives. Many universities pharmaceutical companies worldwide are working to produce this. FDA now has experience to quickly approve, FDA is now set up to expedite approval - before this crisis wasn’t able. With the experience the US has gained in testing this can be accomplished u You keep spouting this nonsense. The FDA has an expedited process and an emergency process. They didn’t see the need to do so, and why, because the people at the top didn’t see their importance. HIV changed the system so we could both approve and study at the same time for emergency health threats. The process can be sped up. God help us if they don’t do it for what we need now to get out of this. See how fast and with so little data they approved hydroxychloroquin for this? I wonder why? Oh, c’mon! Which pharmaceutical company is hydrochloroquine made by? How much did their lobbies contribute to the GOP?
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 16:15:00 GMT -5
Yes we’re just starting, yes drug tests are done but only in small numbers, nothing like the amounts we’re looking st and the drug tests have been developed over years. The genetic information for Covid 19 was only determined and published about 2 months ago, and first tests relied on mailing to labs with specialized machines. Now there is a rapid test but still reliant on special machine. All this development is amazingly fast including FDA approval. Can’t just throw some chemicals together and make a test Then the difficulty of setting up mass testing with people who can set up - sterile masks, clothing that needed to be changed after each person was tested. We’re doing better at this. South Kotea went beyond this - legally able to track each person who was positive cell phone and credit card info- Really??! In the US, did the general public in the US give permission to have their credit cards and cell phones tracked?? Tracked by individuals identity, not just general gps for phones Would you agree with our government having your all of your cc and phone info ?? That’s what would be needed Actually, they do this every single time you give blood. You are tested for a myriad of diseases and are informed if you come back positive for things like Hep B and HIV, and referred to your doctor. Mass testing is not that difficult. You change out gown, mask and gloves. Not a big deal. We used to do this regularly in some of my research. Yes but did you do this for thousands in a day?? At multiple sites?? Can be done but not easily
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nidena
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Post by nidena on Apr 2, 2020 16:15:22 GMT -5
Can we go back to fixing the economy?
Pretend it wasn't a virus. Pretend it was something else that acted like a black light on the semen stains that are the cracks in our economic model. What would need to be done for it to be cleaned up?
I mean, you can't deny that we have a tremendous amount of govt and corp debt. How do we little people fix that?
And please let's not resort to party vs party crap 'cause, in all reality, I belong to neither.
How does an everyday person work towards the change needed?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Apr 2, 2020 16:16:51 GMT -5
I saw a post on Facebook about a firm that already found/created 5 antibodies that all work, and they're ready to start trials. I've never even taken a biology class so that's all I know. If I find it again, I'll link the article for you people who know how this stuff works.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 16:17:44 GMT -5
One thing that would help economy start is an accurate test for antibodies to Covid 19 and certificate These people could then go back to work and start leading normal lives. Many universities pharmaceutical companies worldwide are working to produce this. FDA now has experience to quickly approve, FDA is now set up to expedite approval - before this crisis wasn’t able. With the experience the US has gained in testing this can be accomplished u You keep spouting this nonsense. The FDA has an expedited process and an emergency process. They didn’t see the need to do so, and why, because the people at the top didn’t see their importance. HIV changed the system so we could both approve and study at the same time for emergency health threats. The process can be sped up. God help us if they don’t do it for what we need now to get out of this. See how fast and with so little data they approved hydroxychloroquin for this? I wonder why? Assume this is sarcastic. Not approved yet for Covid but certainly being used off label with Z pak in many hospitals while trial is going on
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 2, 2020 16:18:10 GMT -5
Yes we’re just starting, yes drug tests are done but only in small numbers, nothing like the amounts we’re looking st and the drug tests have been developed over years. The genetic information for Covid 19 was only determined and published about 2 months ago, and first tests relied on mailing to labs with specialized machines. Now there is a rapid test but still reliant on special machine. All this development is amazingly fast including FDA approval. Can’t just throw some chemicals together and make a test Then the difficulty of setting up mass testing with people who can set up - sterile masks, clothing that needed to be changed after each person was tested. We’re doing better at this. South Kotea went beyond this - legally able to track each person who was positive cell phone and credit card info- Really??! In the US, did the general public in the US give permission to have their credit cards and cell phones tracked?? Tracked by individuals identity, not just general gps for phones Would you agree with our government having your all of your cc and phone info ?? That’s what would be needed Actually, they do this every single time you give blood. You are tested for a myriad of diseases and are informed if you come back positive for things like Hep B and HIV, and referred to your doctor. Mass testing is not that difficult. You change out gown, mask and gloves. Not a big deal. We used to do this regularly in some of my research. The main limiting factor is automation. You are correct. There are machines that can do 20+ tests on one sample. And I agree the development of the test is not hard. Jerseygirl continues to be an apologist for the administration and the FDA. We had an effective vaccine for H1N1 with the outbreak under Obama in less than 6 months, and in sufficient quantities to do a mass immunization campaign. Think of that, development, approval, and manufacturing of sufficient quantities in less than 6 months. This whole nonsense about approval is just that. Nonsense. If we get treated this as the potential crisis it could be, we would have had an accurate diagnostic test, just one of many failures with the response
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 2, 2020 16:19:16 GMT -5
RNA not DNA virus Would be surprised if hold up is licensing or FDA since so many are working to put together a serology test Might be paucity of antibodies? Unusual feature of antigen?? Whatever really hoping this comes quickly as do many in the medical and government I knew that, mistyped and corrected it. Mt Sinai has released a pre print of a publication in a peer reviewed journal and it is very complete about antibody testing. I posted this 2 weeks ago. The article is very complete, read it yourself. The testing is not difficult, the assay itself has been done since the 1980s. Considering I could easily test 500 samples myself in a day using this method, it is NOT a problem. Someone is dragging their feet about this someplace. Considering the amount of time to write the paper, submit is and a pre print is given out, I am positive the FDA has the data.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 2, 2020 16:20:03 GMT -5
u You keep spouting this nonsense. The FDA has an expedited process and an emergency process. They didn’t see the need to do so, and why, because the people at the top didn’t see their importance. HIV changed the system so we could both approve and study at the same time for emergency health threats. The process can be sped up. God help us if they don’t do it for what we need now to get out of this. See how fast and with so little data they approved hydroxychloroquin for this? I wonder why? Oh, c’mon! Which pharmaceutical company is hydrochloroquine made by? How much did their lobbies contribute to the GOP? [br It’s generic and much is produced in India and China. Not worth enough for any pharma companies to lobby because it won’t be a brand
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 2, 2020 16:21:09 GMT -5
u You keep spouting this nonsense. The FDA has an expedited process and an emergency process. They didn’t see the need to do so, and why, because the people at the top didn’t see their importance. HIV changed the system so we could both approve and study at the same time for emergency health threats. The process can be sped up. God help us if they don’t do it for what we need now to get out of this. See how fast and with so little data they approved hydroxychloroquin for this? I wonder why? Assume this is sarcastic. Not approved yet for Covid but certainly being used off label with Z pak in many hospitals while trial is going on No it’s not, they didn’t need to do anything and we could still use it. They put out that out for political reasons. We can use any drug we want for any reason, and the fda doesn’t have to say anything. Why did they say it now? Sure as hell isnt because there is good data to support it.
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