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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 11:43:52 GMT -5
My issue with Kaiser's stance is simple, there's no proof the lupus drug actually works for COVID. There's also the little issue that Trump family is profiting from the purchase of a massive amount of the drug "just in case". "The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil. "Some associates of Mr. Trump's have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi's largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the mutual fund company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump," said the report. "Another investor in both Sanofi and Mylan, another pharmaceutical firm, is Invesco, the fund previously run by Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary. As of last year, Mr. Trump reported that his three family trusts each had investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund, whose largest holding was in Sanofi."" www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 7, 2020 11:47:37 GMT -5
My issue with Kaiser's stance is simple, there's no proof the lupus drug actually works for COVID. There's also the little issue that Trump family is profiting from the purchase of a massive amount of the drug "just in case". "The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil. "Some associates of Mr. Trump's have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi's largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the mutual fund company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump," said the report. "Another investor in both Sanofi and Mylan, another pharmaceutical firm, is Invesco, the fund previously run by Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary. As of last year, Mr. Trump reported that his three family trusts each had investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund, whose largest holding was in Sanofi."" www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/ I think this is a lot more reasonable of a stance than what the article seemed to focus on, which was a single patient thinking it was unethical for healthcare companies to "sacrifice" their treatment for other people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 11:52:23 GMT -5
My issue with Kaiser's stance is simple, there's no proof the lupus drug actually works for COVID. There's also the little issue that Trump family is profiting from the purchase of a massive amount of the drug "just in case". "The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil. "Some associates of Mr. Trump's have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi's largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the mutual fund company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump," said the report. "Another investor in both Sanofi and Mylan, another pharmaceutical firm, is Invesco, the fund previously run by Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary. As of last year, Mr. Trump reported that his three family trusts each had investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund, whose largest holding was in Sanofi."" www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/ I think this is a lot more reasonable of a stance than what the article seemed to focus on, which was a single patient thinking it was unethical for healthcare companies to "sacrifice" their treatment for other people. The actual letter from Kaiser to their patients uses the word sacrifice. It's not my term. They thanked their patients for sacrificing their own medical needs for the greater good. That's what I have a problem with.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 7, 2020 11:58:16 GMT -5
I think this is a lot more reasonable of a stance than what the article seemed to focus on, which was a single patient thinking it was unethical for healthcare companies to "sacrifice" their treatment for other people. The actual letter from Kaiser to their patients uses the word sacrifice. It's not my term. They thanked their patients for sacrificing their own medical needs for the greater good. That's what I have a problem with. You have a problem with it as it reads? Or you have a problem with it because the sacrifice is likely dumb and not actually even promoting any greater good? I think the former, there's no way around it. With limited resources, SOMEONE is going to sacrifice. With the latter...it makes sense to have a problem with "sacrificing" if the output is that the greater good isn't even benefiting. Or let me phrase it this way...if this medication WAS a valid treatment for COVID19 (or at the moment, it would be THE valid treatment if it were valid)...would you have a problem with telling lupus patients they can't get it anymore because it would save more lives if it were used for COVID19 purposes instead?
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 7, 2020 12:00:52 GMT -5
My issue with Kaiser's stance is simple, there's no proof the lupus drug actually works for COVID. There's also the little issue that Trump family is profiting from the purchase of a massive amount of the drug "just in case". "The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil. "Some associates of Mr. Trump's have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi's largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the mutual fund company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump," said the report. "Another investor in both Sanofi and Mylan, another pharmaceutical firm, is Invesco, the fund previously run by Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary. As of last year, Mr. Trump reported that his three family trusts each had investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund, whose largest holding was in Sanofi."" www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/That’s a really poor job of investigative reporting. Apparently trump has shares in a mutual fund that has shares in Sanofi. The drug is generic and is probably minuscule part of Sanofi. Much ado about nothing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 12:02:57 GMT -5
I have less of a problem with Kaiser's stance if it was proven to actually work. In studies in other countries the opposite has been the finding.
Thus, you are taking away useful medication for lupus patients and hoarding it for patients it won't work for and could be harmful for, simply so Trump and his cohorts can make an extra buck. It's actually criminal.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Apr 7, 2020 12:08:13 GMT -5
I have less of a problem with Kaiser's stance if it was proven to actually work. In studies in other countries the opposite has been the finding. Thus, you are taking away useful medication for lupus patients and hoarding it for patients it won't work for and could be harmful for, simply so Trump and his cohorts can make an extra buck. It's actually criminal. Do you really think physicians in the overwhelmed hospitals are giving their patients a drug to make money for trump? Or because trump ‘likes’ the drug? Do you really think trump and family or their friends are going to make big bucks on this? Woo wooo conspiracy theory Or is it possible that this drug has potential to help these terribly ill patients? And let’s try it because the patient is dying?
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 7, 2020 12:12:45 GMT -5
Doctors and scientists are testing many drugs. The one trump is fixated on has mixed reviews from limited studies. It’s still being tested... among other things. As it should be. Trump needs to STFU and let people do their jobs and maybe do a little of his.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Apr 7, 2020 12:16:51 GMT -5
His continuing to hype it doesn’t help. It gives people false hope, and it interferes with the difficult discussions we have to have with families regarding prognosis. This should be one of many trials going on to find the most effective treatment. When people believe his hype, they will not be willing to try other medications. This will slow down other, and in my opinion more promising treatments being found. This is a “hail Mary” treatment. So far, in my limited experience, I am unimpressed
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 7, 2020 12:20:31 GMT -5
I have less of a problem with Kaiser's stance if it was proven to actually work. In studies in other countries the opposite has been the finding. Thus, you are taking away useful medication for lupus patients and hoarding it for patients it won't work for and could be harmful for, simply so Trump and his cohorts can make an extra buck. It's actually criminal. Do you really think physicians in the overwhelmed hospitals are giving their patients a drug to make money for trump? Or because trump ‘likes’ the drug? Do you really think trump and family or their friends are going to make big bucks on this? Woo wooo conspiracy theory Or is it possible that this drug has potential to help these terribly ill patients? And let’s try it because the patient is dying? It is hard to know exactly what Trump's motivation is in pushing for this drug so far. Yesterday, I heard him push taking the drug prophylactically in order to prevent getting Covid. Why would you suggest someone take a potentially dangerous drug on the off chance that the drug will kill them? If the drug has been adequately tested, by all means - try it out on patients who are circling the drain. As it inhibits inflammation, biologically it could possibly stop the cytokine storm that happens in a subset of patients. The alternative is that by inhibiting inflammation on patients who are NOT undergoing a cytokine storm, you are also inhibiting the immune response necessary to fight the infection. So ultimately, given to the wrong patients you could kill them too. This drug is a double edged sword, and given indiscriminately the death rate could be higher than it is right now. That's really not solving the problem.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 7, 2020 13:21:32 GMT -5
I have never been a fan of insurance companies approving or not approving medical care, and Kaiser has always struck me as far too Big Brother-esque for my taste. They were an option for my postdoc; I squinted at their policies and „what? no“. That said, someone needs to manage the supply of (hydroxy)chloroquine and we‘ve seen from the PPE debacle that Trump and his administration are not competent for the job. So, mixed feelings. I just can't get behind that idea. I fight with the insurance company at least twice a year to keep the medications and dme that we need. How are they deciding who needs it most.... Triaging is one thing. Pre-emptively withholding needing medication just makes my skin crawl. Fair enough! I hadn’t read the KP press release prior to my earlier comment...I am now with you on the skin crawling
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lurkyloo
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“Time means nothing now,” said Toad. “It is just the thing that happens between snacks.”
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 7, 2020 13:27:32 GMT -5
If you go to the April 6 post on this blog, it presents a discussion of why the data collected thus far isn’t reliable (hint: because people are testing it on the fly without planning the studies with sufficient statistical power or adequate study design): blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelineBlogger is a generally levelheaded individual with several decades of experience in the pharma industry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 16:21:53 GMT -5
Do you really think physicians in the overwhelmed hospitals are giving their patients a drug to make money for trump? Or because trump ‘likes’ the drug? Do you really think trump and family or their friends are going to make big bucks on this? Woo wooo conspiracy theory Or is it possible that this drug has potential to help these terribly ill patients? And let’s try it because the patient is dying? It is hard to know exactly what Trump's motivation is in pushing for this drug so far. Yesterday, I heard him push taking the drug prophylactically in order to prevent getting Covid. Why would you suggest someone take a potentially dangerous drug on the off chance that the drug will kill them? If the drug has been adequately tested, by all means - try it out on patients who are circling the drain. As it inhibits inflammation, biologically it could possibly stop the cytokine storm that happens in a subset of patients. The alternative is that by inhibiting inflammation on patients who are NOT undergoing a cytokine storm, you are also inhibiting the immune response necessary to fight the infection. So ultimately, given to the wrong patients you could kill them too. This drug is a double edged sword, and given indiscriminately the death rate could be higher than it is right now. That's really not solving the problem. Trump repeatedly says, every single day, in his rally/presser that this drug will not kill you. In those exact words. When, in fact, it might kill you and at the same time do nothing for the COVID you are attempting to treat or prevent yourself from getting. It's dangerous for him to stand up there every.single.day and drill this into people's heads because some people are stupid and believe him but it's medically hogwash! From the transcript in his own words: "Trump: We bought a tremendous amount of … hydroxychloroquine, which I think is, you know, it’s a great malaria drug. It’s worked unbelievably, it’s a powerful drug on malaria. And there are signs that it works on [coronavirus], some very strong signs. And in the meantime, it’s been around a long time, and also works very powerfully on lupus. So there are some very strong, powerful signs, and we’ll have to see. Because again, it’s being tested now, this is a new thing that just happened to us, the invisible enemy, we call it. … It’s a very strong, powerful medicine, but it doesn’t kill people. We have some very good results and some very good tests. You’ve seen the same test that I have. In France, they had a very good test. But we don’t have time to go and say, gee, let’s take a couple of years and test it out. And let’s go and test with the test tubes and the laboratories. We don’t have time. I’d love to do that." www.statnews.com/2020/04/06/trump-hydroxychloroquine-fact-check/I also detest drug commercials. "Ask your doctor about..." If your doctor is too stupid to know what medication is available and best for you, then you need a new doctor...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 7, 2020 17:00:16 GMT -5
My issue with Kaiser's stance is simple, there's no proof the lupus drug actually works for COVID. There's also the little issue that Trump family is profiting from the purchase of a massive amount of the drug "just in case". "The president himself, according to Peter Baker, Katie Rogers, David Enrich, and Maggie Haberman has a financial interest in Sanofi, the French pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug under the brand Plaquenil. "Some associates of Mr. Trump's have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi's largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the mutual fund company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump," said the report. "Another investor in both Sanofi and Mylan, another pharmaceutical firm, is Invesco, the fund previously run by Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary. As of last year, Mr. Trump reported that his three family trusts each had investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund, whose largest holding was in Sanofi."" www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/That’s a really poor job of investigative reporting. Apparently trump has shares in a mutual fund that has shares in Sanofi. The drug is generic and is probably minuscule part of Sanofi. Much ado about nothing "Come on dear. It wasn't often and it was always quick and I never spent the night. What's the big deal?"
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