zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 10, 2011 11:02:45 GMT -5
I've taught in public schools and it just isn't Harlem but other than report it to authorities who do nothing anyway, the teacher's job is to TEACH not parent, nurse, counsel and everything else. That causes teacher burnout. If the system isn't willing to remove these children from these "homes" then there is nothing a teacher can do about it. Trying to change in 6 hours what happens in the other 18 and the first 5 years isn't going to work.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 10, 2011 11:20:28 GMT -5
Sorry, but schools don't operate like other industries. They don't care about your experience or higher level education. They want someone who can start on Paygrade 1 and that's it. The higher edu level is of little value to the school with a starting teacher, so no ned to pay extra for it. In fact, the 'credential based' pay matrix is flawed, teachers need to be measured on performance similar to industry. We are wasting both our university resources & our teacher resources by encouraging (forcing?) teachers to attend ever-more classes thru-out their careers. The end-game would be K or second grade teachers with expensive phd's. (expensive to society). Additionally, the added education is questionable at best - adult teachers teaching adult teachers - pretty much all A's. As a data point - look at the classic one-room school houses of 75 years ago, the teacher often had one year at a teachers college. And the US was world-class in math & science, our decline to 28th spot of the 28 industrialized nations occurred in the recent decades in the US.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 10, 2011 11:50:32 GMT -5
Plus, younger teachers can be indoctrinated into the BS that the education system and it's administrators spews out. Older/experienced teachers know what works and what doesn't and ignore the idiots that spew out nonsense. The nonsense spewers don't like the fact that older teachers know it's bs and call them out on it or ignore them altogether. Younger teachers are easier to mold into the "system."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 15:19:20 GMT -5
But, Phil . . . and this is an important but . . . society didn't try to educate everyone. Can't or won't learn? "Drop-out at 16 and get a job at the factory or filling station." Pregnant? "No more school for you, missy." Special ed? "Keep him at home or send him to an institution. Your choice."
When I graduated from college in 1974, there was no special education law. Schools didn't try to be all things to all people.
It is so frustrating when even smart people compare apples to oranges.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Apr 10, 2011 15:35:13 GMT -5
Maybe we should focus more of our teaching resources on the apples and find alternative solutions for the oranges [trade schools, other means for special education, etc].
Phil is spot on though, about the fact that teacher pay is largely determined by tenure and education; neither of which is tied to the best interests of the children.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 10, 2011 15:38:49 GMT -5
society didn't try to educate everyone. Can't or won't learn? "Drop-out at 16 and get a job at the factory or filling station." Pregnant? "No more school for you, missy." Special ed? "Keep him at home or send him to an institution. Right. But what is your point? Ie, should we keep on doing what has lead to the failed education system for the past 25 years? Or should we return to the model that worked 75 years ago? Re, the drop out rate (pg's & filling stations) - in 1957 we had 333 grads in our class, less than 10 drop outs. That same HS today has >20% drop out rate. Eg, in one special school, we have 4 'main streamed' students that are on gurneys and attended by one-on-one teachers from class to class. Unable to see, hear, speak. Is it your belief that the public school system is the best facility to provide this care?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 10, 2011 15:54:17 GMT -5
It's a free place to warehouse them at taxpayer expense until they "graduate" at age 21 and continue on taxpayer expense. Costs a fortune that could be better spent on helping those who just need some extra help to pass but instead it's spent on those who cannot benefit from it. That's the law.
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 10, 2011 18:39:21 GMT -5
Industries and jobs come and go. THere are no guarantees. You do whatever everyone else does. You adjust. You move on to another town, change careers or take whatever work you can get. That is much harder for our generation who was taught to get a degree and that a job would just be available in that field. Our grandparents just went out and did whatever job they could get. I agree Snerdley. I think the young lady in the OP should consider applying for teaching positions, but also be on the look out for other opportunities. Many people, myself included, are doing something way non-related to their degrees. I thought I wanted to be a TV reporter, so I majored in Communications. I am in financial sales.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Apr 10, 2011 19:18:09 GMT -5
That's great. A lot of boomers will need insurance. The laid off teachers can sell insurance!
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Apr 10, 2011 19:32:42 GMT -5
Compared to Colorado, property taxes in Iowa are ridiculously high. Most of it is going to the schools and there is also a surtax on the income returns for the local school district.
My sister is a paraprofessional in Pre K. One year, she was assigned to just one handicapped child. She had to be with her every where she went. The child became totally attached to my sister and it was very difficult for her when the school year ended. My sister then decided she would never do that again.
My sister has a teaching degree, but was a stay at home mom. Even though she kept her license current and took classes, she was limited in the geographical area where she could teach due to her husband's farming. It's not like you can pick up a farm and move. She has applied for so many jobs around here and can't get hired. She now will only sub in her classroom because it really doesn't pay her any more than her regular salary. She is high enough in seniority than she can bump people if her position disappears, so that worry is gone.
The state of Iowa is cutting funding to the schools by 10% across the board, so the school districts are increasing the mil levy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 19:41:24 GMT -5
It is the law. You will not get Congress to authorize otherwise. Instead, courts have ruled that teachers must learn how to change catheters, etc. if necessary to accommodate the student.
If the local school isn't the best facility, then the local school district must find the best facility regardless of cost. Some special ed students require $100,000+ a year to attend special schools. See why the local school system is hiring an aide at $15,000 a year to accompany the student one-on-one?
On the other hand, you absolutely cannot blame these students' parents for demanding a "free and appropriate" education (that's the language of the law). These are their children.
The "good old days" aren't coming back. But they weren't as good as some people remember, particularly if your child had special needs
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 10, 2011 19:50:54 GMT -5
It may be the law but it isn't right to take money away from those who could put it to good use. It also isn't right to mandate a law but then expect others to pay for it. But that's the federal gov't for you. Easy to mandate what you don't pay for.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Apr 11, 2011 11:16:05 GMT -5
I may be mis-remembering but Time magazine had a special on education a couple of months ago. When the educational rankings are compiled, non-English speaking students (primarily the children of illegal immigrants are included) but when that population is removed from the equation the US actually ranks much better than expected. So, the US educational system is not too bad for native English speakers. That being said, I am seriously considering selling my house in in-town Atlanta because my local elementary is not too good, the middle school is bad and the high school is dreadful.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 11, 2011 11:47:08 GMT -5
It is the law. You will not get Congress to authorize otherwise. Instead, courts have ruled that teachers must learn how to change catheters, etc. if necessary to accommodate the student. But my question wan't about the law, it was 'do you think the public schools are the best places to provide this service?'
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 11:58:19 GMT -5
Lord, no!!! If I had a child that needed special services, I want someone qualified and that chose to do that for their profession. I have a friend who is actually pricking some kid's finger and giving her an insulin shot. That would scare the carp outa me and for 9 bucks an hour? No way!!!! Teachers and paraprofessionals do not want to do this work and they are forced to because the school is trying to save money.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2011 13:32:50 GMT -5
When I think of how these kids were warehoused and/or denied the basic right to be educated to the best of their potential only within my own teaching career . . . well, I can only say it is the "better" place to provide this service.
The "best" place too often requires too much of the school system's limited resources. Teachers are relatively cheap when you can load up 30+ students, including several special needs students, and expect them to routinely perform miracles. You can't afford to educate too many kids at schools that cost $50,000 - $100,000 per student. There would be nothing left to provide education for the others.
My point, though, about the "law" is that it isn't going to change. As another poster said, if you remove other populations (ESL, special ed, etc.) that weren't tested back then, we aren't doing that badly. We just expect so much more than we used to.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 13:42:03 GMT -5
Without the resources to pay for all the services the schools are forced to provide. Case in point, that school system my Gf serves on the board. Half a million bucks and cabs for a few kids. Another kid like that and they are belly up. How do you think the teachers feel about the resources going out the door instead of to them and the students? Lot of resentment toward those kids and their families. Not a pleasant situation. Just because it's the law doesn't make it fair or right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2011 14:01:12 GMT -5
I sometimes think its funny when people talk about paying outrageous daycare bills... and then expect their children to not only be 'babysat'... but edcated, and exercised, and fed, etc. for less...
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 11, 2011 16:08:47 GMT -5
A good point in susana's last post. Schools routinely provide special aids for children with a wide variety of special needs. In many cases, this means an aid is devoted full time to only one child.
How about we look at "special needs" from the other end of the spectrum? What would the reaction of your community be if the school district hired a staff of teachers to devote themselves to providing the education for the five most academically capable children in the school district? And that meant that funds and resources would be diverted from other programs to meet the needs of this small group of children? I'm betting that would make for some interesting school board meetings once the local media got wind of the fact that resources were being taken from the masses to be given to a small group of academically gifted students.
So in the interest of being politically correct, we give the least capable students and the most capable students the same education, in the same classroom, and expect that the teacher will be able to prepare all of the students for "Harvard". Come on. All of us are smart enough to realized that "one size fits all" really means this size doesn't fit anybody very well. When are we going to apply what we know is true of shirts and shoes to something more important, like kids educations?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 11, 2011 16:13:00 GMT -5
Which is why more parents are leaving the public school system. Soon what will be left? What cannot get out. Is that what we really want?
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Apr 11, 2011 20:01:27 GMT -5
I was one of the gifted students when I went to school, but there were no programs for us then. My niece and nephews all have gone through a talented and gifted program, which keeps getting it's funds cut--to the point that it might as well not even exist.
I would love to see the gifted children receiving the same type of assistance as the special needs child. Just my 2 cents.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 11, 2011 20:46:19 GMT -5
It's federal law that a school district cannot ever question the cost of a needB. of an identified SpEd student. There's also MOE (Maintenance of Effort). MOE means that if a district spends $5 on the SpEd department in year A, the district must spend $5 in year B. The only time a district can spend less in a consecutive year is if a SpEd student leaves the district by transfer or graduation. Even if a student goes to a private school, the public school, by law, must still provide SpEd services The issue of special needs students is also an unspoken dilemma. Administrators don't want to spend the majority of their budget on the smallest population. The concept that those funds could be spent on the kids with the most potential is not lost on administrators; there's just simply nothing administrators can do about it because it's federal law.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 6:35:55 GMT -5
The bottom line is that your tax dollars will only stretch so far. Sure, you might like some of the money currently being spent on the food stamps program used to buy you a filet mignon every once in a while. But you aren't going to go hungry or even be significantly deprived if it isn't. This is the situation for average and above average students.
I had gifted children myself, by the way. Good parenting makes all the difference.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Apr 12, 2011 8:17:49 GMT -5
Eg, in one special school, we have 4 'main streamed' students that are on gurneys and attended by one-on-one teachers from class to class. Unable to see, hear, speak. Is it your belief that the public school system is the best facility to provide this care? what kind of jobs are we educating those children for?
besides feel good for the parents, what's the ROI for the taxpayers?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 12, 2011 8:44:14 GMT -5
Not a thing but that is what they are entitled to. Free daycare so they get a break.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 9:03:59 GMT -5
Do not confuse physical disabilities with mental disabilities. Those students on the gurneys may have at least average intelligence. Are they to be condemned to ignorance because they are physically disabled?
Sure, a different setting might be appropriate. But I imagine that the school district chose mainstreaming to reduce the cost since a private school or hospital with a credentialed full-time teacher would be horrendous.
ETA: Students like those described are rarely truly mainstreamed. I'd be surprised if they were in a regular classroom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 9:49:29 GMT -5
Wrong on so many levels. I've never noticed that in schools. They just try different ways of learning based on new studies that are out. My wife is a teacher and the kids that come through her class are way smarter than when I was in school 25 years ago. Instead of just grouping people into groups based on the skill level of one test, they do that within the classroom now and with each lesson.
Actually, I'd disagree completely. That's a myth that older teachers "know what works". Standardized tests aren't perfect, but they point out big picture weaknesses for a district, grade level, or for a teacher. A lot of older teachers like to say "Teaching used to be more of an ART". Newer teaches tend to think of it as a combination of art/science. If the numbers are showing kids aren't hitting their targets, then soemthing needs to be done to change that.
I don't know where you're hearing that from. It's probably the opposite. As private schools cost rise, more people are probably going to public schools.
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Post by fuel100 on Apr 12, 2011 12:23:24 GMT -5
Did anyone watch this? Holy carp that's funny.
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Post by commentator on Apr 12, 2011 17:32:07 GMT -5
Some people need a citation to tell if they put their pants on in the morning. I suppose if you are 12 and just started shaving, you need to be told that the educational deferment was a classic way to avoid the Vietnam meat-grinder. Others merely need to have lived through that decade and kept the drug use low enough that they still have a working memory. "Educational deferments" were available for students below the doctoral level. The draft lottery was, in my opinion, the fairest way to select draftees but it wasn't used soon enough. As for citations, I get tired of people who spout "facts" as if the words are carved in stone when those "facts" have simply been pulled off the wall. Yeah, sure, some people were in doctoral programs to keep their student deferments. But, in case you've forgotten, you had to be making reasonable progress in your degree program to keep your deferment - for undergrads that meant staying on track to finish in 4 years. I don't know (or care) what the time frame was for graduate programs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 20:38:13 GMT -5
Interesting news about special education in the newspaper today. Alabama got a waiver to spend less this year on special education. It is because the percent they are proposing cutting is significantly less than the amount that the entire education budget is being cut. But we will still be monitored to make certain that we are providing a "free and appropriate" education.
I guess this is tied to an earlier poster's comment that you can't spend less than you did the year before or something.
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