Very unexpected major car issue - need advice

[mcsangel2]

I'm going to include some financials, please don't quote them, will delete later.

After my car was stolen in 2003 and had to buy a new one when DH's was then 6 years old, I had the idea that going forward, we would drive our cars for about 14-15 years, buying a new one every 7 years when the other newer car would be about 7 years old.

We replaced DH's 16 y.o. vehicle with a new Hyundai Elantra in 2013. I just replaced my super reliable but 16 y.o. old and crappy looking corolla in October with a new 2019 Honda HRV. I have liked buying new because I want to drive them for a very long time, know the entire maintenance history, and because we are not mechanically savvy and not comfortable shopping private party used.

Last week, DH's car died suddenly while he was driving it on the freeway. Had it towed to our regular mechanic. They idled and then drove it around for half a day and could not duplicate the problem, didn't charge us anything. We took it home, DH drove it and two days later the exact same thing happened (now on the surface streets as he's wary of getting stalled in traffic.)

It's now at Hyundai waiting to be looked at tomorrow. Google has informed us that Hyundai has had massive problems with their 2010-2014 engines failing, but mostly in their Sonatas and Santa Fes. In fact, there is a class action lawsuit that led to recalls. I can find plenty of stories of the exact same thing happening in Elantras and Accents, but the party line right now is "I'm not familiar with this problem occuring in your vehicle model."

The cars included in the class action are entitled to have the entire engine replaced. We aren't in the class action, although at 68,500 miles the engine is still covered under the 100,000 powertrain warranty.

I KNOW they are going to say they can't find a problem. If they can't find a problem, they can't suggest a fix and and we can't demand the engine be replaced.

What the heck are we going to do? We could have our mechanic replace the engine anyway and pay out of pocket. What is that, like $5000 or so? And hope we're good for another 7+ years.

We could sell it to Carmax (yes they'll buy it) and buy a new Toyota Prius for about $25k, and have two cars that are the exact same age and have a car payment when we JUST bought a new car!

Here's the thing. We could technically afford to buy a new car but I really don't want to, but I'm worried about how successful repair would be. My new Honda is the first vehicle that we have bought outright - there is no car payment. DH's car we had almost all the money to buy, in 2013, but not quite, and we paid it off in 6 months.

But since we just bought my car, the car savings account for the next car has only $3k in it. If we sell the Hyundai, I think Carmax could give us $3-4k. And I've not yet done our taxes, I would expect a refund of $3k. This gives us about $8-9k to put down on a new vehicle if we did that. Toyota is currently offering 2.9% financing which is higher than in the past but not terrible. If we financed approximately $17,000, I think it would take at least a year and a half to two years to pay off.


The house $ and inheritance was meant to be saved for a down payment when we sell this house and buy a bigger one (eventually), and this amount is still not as much as it should be. The vacation $ was meant to go to Europe on in May - we haven't vacationed together in 3.5 years due to sick pets, before that it was 6 years since our last trip together. It wouldn't be the whole $ but I'm sure it would be close to $. It's just coincidental that I haven't actually bought our airfare and booked the hotels yet, I had meant to do it by now.

I hate the idea of touching any of that money to buy a new car. My biggest question to you all is, what would you be trying to do about this car?? We can't force Hyundai to replace the engine if they say they can't find the problem. What would you do? Would you have your mechanic replace the engine for $$$ or just say screw it and get a new car? I'm so stressed about this.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I would get a new car if this is a known and unrecognized problem by Hyundai.  You are talking about putting a $5000 engine in a car that is worth only $4000.  That does not make sense, even though the car is only 7 years old.  Also, I am sensitive to this issue because TD just took my Forester to work.  His STi, which had the engine replaced is sitting in the driveway undrivable......again.  Despite the fact he loves this car to pieces, he hates the unreliability of it.  

I have a Subaru Forester where the model has known problems (head gasket).  We are reaching the point where we need to rethink as to whether or not we will replace the head gasket it if it goes.  My car is a 2007 and has just over 100K miles on it.  However, it is a work horse right now.    

[Tiny]

If it was me, I'd do some math on 2 different scenarios to determine how much I'd be willing to spend on replacing the engine and then figuring out how much I would be willing to spend each month on a car payment (that total loan amount PLUS the 6K downpayment you have is how much car plus taxes,etc you can purchase. ) I would consider 2 to 3 year old "used" cars if possible.

Knowing the numbers will help you make the best decision. You need to figure out how this effects your long term plans.

Theoretically, you are saving X dollars each month for your next new car... that money could be part of your car payment. You will need to rework your "vehicle spending plan" expenses going forward.

If this was me, I'd be figuring out how much DownPayment I was willing to go with - combined with how much monthly payment (ie the amount I'd borrow)  I could handle that DIDN"T impact my other goals/plans and then look for a vehicle that fit into that "cost".
Vehicles aren't a status symbol for me. I have a list of things the car needs to do for me and making me look 'good' isn't one of them... so I wouldn't have too much trouble finding a good for me vehicle in the under 20K out the door price range.  My existing goals/plans and long range plans would take precedence  so I'd settle for a car that fit all the things I need it to do - even if it was hot pink and I thought the body style was ugly.  

[souldoubt]

My 13 year old car with about 108K miles on it started to go a few years back.  I loved that car and would still be driving it now but the transmission was going and the cost to replace the transmission was more than the car was worth.  I'm the type of person that hopes to drive a car until it's on it's last legs and I haven't had a payment for years which was the case with my last car.  The problem with replacing the engine on your car is that there are other things that will go on older car whether it's brakes, tires or something else.  You have to weigh the cost of replacing the engine and other upkeep vs what a new to you car would cost.  I know some people that end up putting way more than the cost of a new car into their old car just to keep it running and they still have issues with it breaking down, needing to get towed and so on.  To me having a dependable car that isn't a constant headache is more important than sticking it out with something that's dying or costing too much to keep on the road.  

[mcsangel2]

I guess I'm trying to figure out if replacing the engine is just throwing good money after bad. I'm not mechanically savvy, I don't know if this issue is an indicator that there are likely to be other major problems even if the engine were replaced. The car is 7 years old with 68,000 miles, flawlessly maintained and a new set of tires LAST MONTH ugh. I'm conservative with our money and would never buy something flashy even if I might like to. I do think $25k for a new car is reasonable these days, my Honda was just a bit less than that. 

And we are never, ever buying another Hyundai.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 3, 2020 13:23:10 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

I guess I'm trying to figure out if replacing the engine is just throwing good money after bad. I'm not mechanically savvy, I don't know if this issue is an indicator that there are likely to be other major problems even if the engine were replaced. The car is 7 years old with 68,000 miles, flawlessly maintained and a new set of tires LAST MONTH ugh. I'm conservative with our money and would never buy something flashy even if I might like to. I do think $25k for a new car is reasonable these days, my Honda was just a bit less than that. 

I may be jaded as to listening to what TD went through when he replaced the engine on his STi, but as much as I think he loves this car to bits, he hates the idea that the car is not as reliable as he'd like it to be.  If he had to do it over, I do not think that he would replace the engine (and this car was ~8 years old with 75,000 miles on it when the timing belt went) again.  Like your husband's car, it is also flawlessly maintained.   This car is his baby.  Since he paid an obscene amount to replace the engine (he got everything upgraded on the engine that he could upgrade), the car has been in the shop no less than 3 times for > 6 months.  It is now sitting in the driveway and will not go into gear. 

For what he has put into this car, he could have gotten a new car WITH the engine modifications but at this point he is too far into it.  When he gets it driving again, I'm thinking that he might be selling it.   

[souldoubt]

There's no for sure answer as to whether or not replacing the engine is just the beginning.  To me it comes down to is replacing the engine worth more than the car?  It sounds like the manufacturer screwed up and you're the one that is going to end up footing the bill.  Do you want to have to deal with them again if you replace the engine and something else comes up?  If you want to spend less than 25K look into something that's certified pre-owned.  My 3 year old honda had less than 26K miles on it and cost less 25K.  Honda's are like Toyota's where if you properly maintain them they've got a very good shot of going 200K miles or more assuming the driver isn't hard on it.

[spartyparty]

If the stalling is intermittent, then I highly doubt the engine needs to be replaced.  Most likely a sensor is (going) bad or some other electrical problem.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 3, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -5 spartyparty said:

If the stalling is intermittent, then I highly doubt the engine needs to be replaced.  Most likely a sensor is (going) bad or some other electrical problem.

It's the common factor in all the problems I've read, including the ones that led to the recall. My biggest question to ask tomorrow when they check it out is whether or not there are metal shavings in the oil pan. Apparently indicates engine failure is imminent. The issue is widespread in Hyundais.

[Chocolate Lover]

Feb 3, 2020 12:09:45 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

<<snip>>


The cars included in the class action are entitled to have the entire engine replaced. We aren't in the class action, although at 68,500 miles the engine is still covered under the 100,000 powertrain warranty.


<<snip>>

This is what I'd be worried about. Are they trying to put you off over and over in hopes you'll drive it right out of warranty range? 

If it's a known issue, I'd do what I could to replace it rather than fight with the people with much more money and time than you. 

[oped]

Replaced an engine once. Took much longer than they anticipated. Has it back maybe 3 months and someone hit me... insurance would not take into account what I had just spent on a new engine.. obviously, just worth if car... so pay 5k on a 4K car... nope. You never know what will happen.

[finnime]

I'm like you: I don't have the tools or expertise to handle car crises myself, but rely on good mechanics. I would be very uncomfortable with a car like you have with a known issue but an unidentified cause. I'd prefer to go with the lower-risk purchase of a new or certified used car, with a loan. (I had a certified used Volvo for years. The warranty for the certified part got added to the remainder of the manufacturer's warranty, so I made out.) The loan is for a relatively short term and doesn't seem to present an obstacle meeting your other goals of house downpayment, vacation, etc.

[souldoubt]

Feb 3, 2020 15:01:19 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 3, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -5 spartyparty said:

If the stalling is intermittent, then I highly doubt the engine needs to be replaced.  Most likely a sensor is (going) bad or some other electrical problem.

It's the common factor in all the problems I've read, including the ones that led to the recall. My biggest question to ask tomorrow when they check it out is whether or not there are metal shavings in the oil pan. Apparently indicates engine failure is imminent. The issue is widespread in Hyundais.

No idea if it's the same type of issue but when my transmission started to go my mechanic drained the oil and said the good news was there were only shavings and not chunks of metal.  Said shavings meant it might not be a full rebuild.  Bad news was they wouldn't know for sure until they took it apart completely at which point they're into you for some labor costs.  Even on the low end on a car as old as mine the cost to rebuild was as much as the car was worth in running condition.

[Deleted]

Engine failure doesn't cause the problem you are having. 

The car has an electrical problem, vacuum problem, some sort of sensor or control unit problem, or perhaps even a clogged fuel filter.

Does the check engine light come on? If so, the code will tell the mechanical folks what's wrong.

If not, the problem is more likely vacuum line, electrical component, or fuel issue. 

[giramomma]

Feb 3, 2020 12:21:47 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I have a Subaru Forester where the model has known problems (head gasket).  We are reaching the point where we need to rethink as to whether or not we will replace the head gasket it if it goes.  My car is a 2007 and has just over 100K miles on it.  However, it is a work horse right now.    

How long do you plan on keeping the car?

My outback is 2008, but we bought it in 2007. The head gaskets were leaking and so I replaced them 4 years ago. They are leaking again. I have 87K on the car.

We also got stuck with the air bags that need to get replaced again.

I/we've decided we're just going to let the car die a slow death and then just replace the damn thing. Everything is starting to leak, but top offs at regular oil changes seem to be enough. If you add in the head gaskets to everything else that needs to get fixed, we're looking at spending 5K.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 3, 2020 16:36:03 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

Engine failure doesn't cause the problem you are having. 

The car has an electrical problem, vacuum problem, some sort of sensor or control unit problem, or perhaps even a clogged fuel filter.

Does the check engine light come on? If so, the code will tell the mechanical folks what's wrong.

If not, the problem is more likely vacuum line, electrical component, or fuel issue. 

All the lights came on, and then it died. Both times, there was knocking some period before the engine shut off.

Regular mechanic hooked it up to the computer for awhile, no code given, no diagnosis. I'm expecting the same thing to happen tomorrow at Hyundai.

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2020 16:53:03 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 3, 2020 16:36:03 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

Engine failure doesn't cause the problem you are having. 

The car has an electrical problem, vacuum problem, some sort of sensor or control unit problem, or perhaps even a clogged fuel filter.

Does the check engine light come on? If so, the code will tell the mechanical folks what's wrong.

If not, the problem is more likely vacuum line, electrical component, or fuel issue. 

All the lights came on, and then it died. Both times, there was knocking some period before the engine shut off.

Regular mechanic hooked it up to the computer for awhile, no code given, no diagnosis. I'm expecting the same thing to happen tomorrow at Hyundai.

Sounds like the fuel filter is clogged or it has a vacuum leak. Engine failure is a very different animal than what you describe. 

[busymom]

I've only replaced an engine twice.  Once, to try & keep the car going, but the replacement engine died two years later.



I had decided to never replace an engine again, when it died in a newer car.  I did replace the engine, but only because the car was worth more as a trade-in, rather than just sending it to the junk yard.  (Yes, even with the cost of a replacement engine, I was money ahead to replace it, then trade it in before anything else happened.)



Based on what you've told us about Hyundai, most likely this will happen again, even if you replace the engine.  So sorry you're dealing with this.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 3, 2020 16:46:05 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Feb 3, 2020 12:21:47 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I have a Subaru Forester where the model has known problems (head gasket).  We are reaching the point where we need to rethink as to whether or not we will replace the head gasket it if it goes.  My car is a 2007 and has just over 100K miles on it.  However, it is a work horse right now.    

How long do you plan on keeping the car?

My outback is 2008, but we bought it in 2007. The head gaskets were leaking and so I replaced them 4 years ago. They are leaking again. I have 87K on the car.

We also got stuck with the air bags that need to get replaced again.

I/we've decided we're just going to let the car die a slow death and then just replace the damn thing. Everything is starting to leak, but top offs at regular oil changes seem to be enough. If you add in the head gaskets to everything else that needs to get fixed, we're looking at spending 5K.

Right now, mechanically it is in excellent shape.  The mechanics I use see no sign of the gasket going, but that is no guarantee it will not.  I get it detailed each spring, and the car looks very good.  Timing belt, tires and brakes are all fairly new.  So we will drive it until it croaks.  

[CCL]

I wouldn't assume it's the entire motor gone bad, either. Did you talk to your regular mechanic about this recall thing? If it's that common, he would surely know something about it.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 3, 2020 19:01:35 GMT -5 CCL said:

I wouldn't assume it's the entire motor gone bad, either. Did you talk to your regular mechanic about this recall thing? If it's that common, he would surely know something about it.

The recall covers Sonatas and Santa Fes; but there are lots of stories of the same thing happening to Accents and Elantras (what we have).

We did talk to our mechanic, but he said we really needed to let the dealership look at the car before deciding our next move.

[CCL]

Since the car is still under warranty, take it to the dealer and see what they say. I know it's difficult dealing with an unreliable car, but we've never had problems getting warranty work done. The toughest part is getting it to fail when the mechanic has the car.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 3, 2020 19:46:14 GMT -5 CCL said:

Since the car is still under warranty, take it to the dealer and see what they say. I know it's difficult dealing with an unreliable car, but we've never had problems getting warranty work done. The toughest part is getting it to fail when the mechanic has the car.

It's out of regular warranty but the powertrain is still covered until 100,000 miles. Not sure how to deal with the service department on that if there's a problem.

[obelisk]

It's a sensor issue or electrical. Changing the engine will not solve this unless its the cam sensor since a new engine will contain this sensor. Keep taking it back to the dealer so it's all documented. If they cannot fix this safety issue after 3 tries, then have a lemon law attorney take your case depending on your state's lemon law.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 4, 2020 10:58:06 GMT -5 obelisk said:

It's a sensor issue or electrical. Changing the engine will not solve this unless its the cam sensor since a new engine will contain this sensor. Keep taking it back to the dealer so it's all documented. If they cannot fix this safety issue after 3 tries, then have a lemon law attorney take your case depending on your state's lemon law.

I don't think it would qualify for a lemon law case as the car is 7 years old?

[obelisk]

Feb 4, 2020 11:26:51 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 4, 2020 10:58:06 GMT -5 obelisk said:

It's a sensor issue or electrical. Changing the engine will not solve this unless its the cam sensor since a new engine will contain this sensor. Keep taking it back to the dealer so it's all documented. If they cannot fix this safety issue after 3 tries, then have a lemon law attorney take your case depending on your state's lemon law.

I don't think it would qualify for a lemon law case as the car is 7 years old?

I am in Ca and I won a lemon law case against Ford.  The car was 5 years old and under warranty.  The key is under warranty over a safety issue that could not be fixed after 3 tries by the dealership.

[mcsangel2]

Feb 4, 2020 11:51:07 GMT -5 obelisk said:

Feb 4, 2020 11:26:51 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

I don't think it would qualify for a lemon law case as the car is 7 years old?

I am in Ca and I won a lemon law case against Ford.  The car was 5 years old and under warranty.  The key is under warranty over a safety issue that could not be fixed after 3 tries by the dealership.

Oh. Well, it's out of warranty except for the powertrain.

[obelisk]

Feb 4, 2020 12:02:13 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 4, 2020 11:51:07 GMT -5 obelisk said:

I am in Ca and I won a lemon law case against Ford.  The car was 5 years old and under warranty.  The key is under warranty over a safety issue that could not be fixed after 3 tries by the dealership.

Oh. Well, it's out of warranty except for the powertrain.

The only warranty I had on the car was the power train and the problem had to do with the car's engine overheating and the dealership was unable to fix the car from overheating on hot days. The car was 5 years old with 50K miles.

[tskeeter]

Feb 3, 2020 15:01:19 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Feb 3, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -5 spartyparty said:

If the stalling is intermittent, then I highly doubt the engine needs to be replaced.  Most likely a sensor is (going) bad or some other electrical problem.

It's the common factor in all the problems I've read, including the ones that led to the recall. My biggest question to ask tomorrow when they check it out is whether or not there are metal shavings in the oil pan. Apparently indicates engine failure is imminent. The issue is widespread in Hyundais.

Metal in the oil pan will not cause the stalling issue you are experiencing.  

Mcsangel2, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Yes, I get that a car that won’t reliably get you from A to B is a big deal.  But, a failing sensor or small component doesn’t call for an engine replacement.  Heck, whatever is failing may not even be on the engine. So, a new engine may not fix your problem.


This is one of those times when patience is a virtue.  Over a few months, whatever is the source of the problem will fail to the point where it can be identified.


If you’re unwilling to deal with working your way through the failure cycle, get rid of the car and get a new one with no wear and tear on any of the components. 

[mcsangel2]

I mean, I didn't think I was making a mountain out of a molehill. What happened to my DH happened to thousands of other Hyundai drivers. So many, that a class action lawsuit was formed, which led to a recall. And the fix for the recall was having the engine replaced. We (now) personally know two people who were affected by this. 

I have plenty of past experience with dealing with complicated car repairs, but it's been a good 20 years. I have no interest in throwing money after money chasing a nonexistent fix to make our car totally reliable again. I also have no interest in spending $$ on a new car....unless that's the best option.