happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,878
Member is Online
|
Post by happyhoix on Dec 2, 2019 8:34:23 GMT -5
I'm listing to an Audible short about a college professor who goes on a hunt for a man who served in WWII with his father, who ended up dying on Okinawa. It takes him 18 years of research to find some of the man's remains and have them brought back to Arlington.
At one point, the professor is interviewing some college students about what they know about WWII. I'm sure he only included the very worst comments, but I was amazed at how many of them knew almost nothing about WWII - not even who our allies were! One kid, supposedly a history major!!! said he knew we were involved, France and England were involved, and he thought Germany was involved, but he wasn't sure on which side. A history major! None of them could name a WWII battle, but most of them were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII.
I thought - maybe because I'm an old broad I remember more about WWII, but then realized I also can name our allies and some battles from the Revolutionary war, the Civil war, and WWI, so the fact that I'm forty years closer to WWII than those kids shouldn't mean that they know nothing at all about it. And I'm not a history major, I just did the regular American and World history classes in high school with everyone else (although I am married to a history geek, so I probably know more than most people about the Civil war, because I get dragged to a lot of Civil war battlefields).
But even assuming they slept through history class, wouldn't they pick up who our allies were in WWII from movies and TV? Inglorious Bastards was a big hit, for instance, and Saving Private Ryan, and Fury. Those movies made it pretty clear who our enemy was in the European sector, anyway.
I'm not blaming Millennials for not knowing what they apparently weren't taught in school, I'm just wondering if they still teach history at all? Maybe they're learning computer programming and mechatronics instead? Those are good things to learn, but seriously, if you don't know the past you're condemned to repeat it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 8:48:26 GMT -5
It's not just millenials. About 12 years ago I was in Munich with coworkers; one American colleague was 10 years younger so that would have made him mid-40s. He actually asked our German coworkers how there got to be an East German and a West Germany. OK, he was an accountant but I was a Math major and knew that. I wanted to sink under the table.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Dec 2, 2019 9:48:11 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me.
I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2019 10:03:07 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me. I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there. I think this is actually a big movement forward in education honestly. Less reliance on "memorize irrelevant stuff" (like dates, etc) and focus on ideas instead (I do think we need to improve the ideas piece, but the fact that kids aren't memorizing irrelevant things seems not only fine, but preferable to the time being spent on it).
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,309
|
Post by swamp on Dec 2, 2019 10:15:03 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me. I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there. I think this is actually a big movement forward in education honestly. Less reliance on "memorize irrelevant stuff" (like dates, etc) and focus on ideas instead (I do think we need to improve the ideas piece, but the fact that kids aren't memorizing irrelevant things seems not only fine, but preferable to the time being spent on it). I was thinking that. I can look up specific details on WWII, thanks to google.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 10:30:56 GMT -5
Memorizing irrelevant things? Isn't this stuff we just learn by reading? You know, like the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. Germany invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Aren't there lessons to be learned from knowing when, why, how these things happened? Is there really no value in understanding how history has shaped us?
I'd make a piss poor STEM student.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 10:43:51 GMT -5
Memorizing irrelevant things? Isn't this stuff we just learn by reading? You know, like the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. Germany invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Aren't there lessons to be learned from knowing when, why, how these things happened? Is there really no value in understanding how history has shaped us? I'd make a piss poor STEM student. I WAS a STEM student but I read a lot (still do) and have traveled a lot. I remember the Time Magazine cover story when the Berlin Wall was erected. OTOH, I never took a History class in college and agree that a whole lot of HS history seemed to be memorizing dates and battles, which made my eyes glaze over.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2019 10:45:07 GMT -5
Memorizing irrelevant things? Isn't this stuff we just learn by reading? You know, like the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. Germany invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Aren't there lessons to be learned from knowing when, why, how these things happened? Is there really no value in understanding how history has shaped us? I'd make a piss poor STEM student. Understanding HOW history has shaped us has little to do with knowing the precise day or even year that something happened. I'd rather focus on the how and why, which traditionally has been far less important in schooling/tests than memorizing specific dates (which yes, I think is pretty much irrelevant to actual education). So honestly, in something like WWII, I think it's far more important to understand how Hitler came to power, how he was able to invade countries without any real pushback, the impact of the Holocaust, Pearl Harbor, if you're American how the country entered the war, the atomic bomb, etc...all of which I think is far more important than even knowing the dates of things I think many folks know like when D-Day happened...which honestly is pretty much irrelevant other than people still memorialize it. I don't even care if you know how many people died in the Holocaust as long as you know it's "a lot". If we presume the answer is about 11 million...then an answer of 9 million on a test is incorrect...but how does it actually change anything if you thought it was 9 and it's actually 11? You understand it's a lot. The IDEAS we pull from history are far more important than getting the specific dates/numbers memorized IMO.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 10:46:35 GMT -5
January 27, 2019 article. Ignorance about the Holocaust is growingIgnorance about the Holocaust is growing, particularly among young people. In the United States, a 2018 survey showed that 66% of millennials could not identify what the Auschwitz concentration and death camp was. A recent CNN poll in Europe revealed that about a third of the 7,000 European respondents across seven countries knew "just a little or nothing at all" about the Holocaust. In France, nearly 20% of young adults between the ages of 18 and 34 said they had never heard of the Holocaust. These studies paint a disquieting picture of widening gaps in the knowledge and understanding of the Holocaust with the passing years. The concern isn't only that the Holocaust is fading from memory, it's that the lessons that can be applied to the ongoing human rights abuses and threats to democracy are also being lost. Today, January 27, is International Holocaust Remembrance Day, and there is no better time to call for a renewed effort to educate young people about the Nazi genocide of 6 million Jews. As awareness of the Holocaust declines, we have witnessed, perhaps not coincidentally, a surge in anti-Semitic attacks. The FBI reported a 37% spike in anti-Jewish hate crimes in 2017 compared to the previous year. In October, a gunman shouting anti-Semitic slurs opened fire at a Pittsburgh synagogue, killing 11 worshipers in what was the deadliest attack against Jews in US history. Complete article here: Ignorance about the Holocaust is growing
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 10:49:10 GMT -5
I meant that the dates just stick while we're learning about the events. Or maybe they don't stick with other people; they just did with me. I remember my phone number in Milwaukee in 1960. Guess I'm not exactly a fountain of knowledge
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 10:52:11 GMT -5
I meant that the dates just stick while we're learning about the events. Or maybe they don't stick with other people; they just did with me. I remember my phone number in Milwaukee in 1960. Guess I'm not exactly a fountain of knowledge 1960 phone number Republic-60281.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 21,299
|
Post by giramomma on Dec 2, 2019 10:57:49 GMT -5
I meant that the dates just stick while we're learning about the events. Or maybe they don't stick with other people; they just did with me. I remember my phone number in Milwaukee in 1960. Guess I'm not exactly a fountain of knowledge There's a lot of evidence in education that passive learning doesn't work. Passive meaning the student gets information pushed in their direction.
Active learning is a better way to teach, actually. If you are interested, this is one of the better resources on Active learning that I use: I don't teach in the public schools, but I do teach kids private music lessons. Absolutely, hands down..I teach them, processes, problem-solving and efficiency over exact dates of when composers lived and when composers wrote specific pieces. I've been out of survey of music history for 25 years and no job of mine has ever required me to produce when, exactly, a piece was written. But, I had to memorize all that to get in A in college.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 11:05:16 GMT -5
There is a concept known as "cultural literacy." It is not the random memorization of facts, but a body of knowledge that we as a culture share. "Everyone" knows that George Washington was the "father" of our country, was our first president, crossed the Delaware, etc. Someone not knowing the exact number of Jewish people killed in the Holocaust doesn't bother me. Someone not knowing that WWII was Germany against the world (with some help from Japan, Italy, etc.) bothers me a lot. That's like knowing that George Washington had "something" to do with the founding of our country. WWII is an important aspect of our culture because it changed us as a culture. It helped create the middle class. Cultural literacy goes far beyond history, of course. But it does include it. link
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,217
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2019 11:28:34 GMT -5
I don't remember specific dates at all but I can talk at length about the holocaust and why WWII happened which IMO I think is more important. It's great if you can spew off dates and names but if you cannot understand WHY the holocaust happened that is when we are doomed to repeat it. If remembering dates was all it took then we shouldn't see a current rise in nationalism across the world and an increase in anti-semitism.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2019 11:33:12 GMT -5
There is a concept known as "cultural literacy." It is not the random memorization of facts, but a body of knowledge that we as a culture share. "Everyone" knows that George Washington was the "father" of our country, was our first president, crossed the Delaware, etc. Someone not knowing the exact number of Jewish people killed in the Holocaust doesn't bother me. Someone not knowing that WWII was Germany against the world (with some help from Japan, Italy, etc.) bothers me a lot. That's like knowing that George Washington had "something" to do with the founding of our country. WWII is an important aspect of our culture because it changed us as a culture. It helped create the middle class. Cultural literacy goes far beyond history, of course. But it does include it. linkAs you point out, there are a LOT of aspects to cultural literacy that don't include history...or more specifically, don't include any traditional core curriculum. So the question is, does it really need to be taught in schools (as opposed to being a happy byproduct of other things taught in schools), and if so aren't there an awful lot of aspects of it that aren't? It also generally doesn't mean much more than "getting a reference" without any real understanding. Everyone knows about Washington, father of the country, first President, crossed the Delaware...none of that is all that significant by itself other than purely for the cultural piece of it. Same for knowing WWII was Germany + others against the world. It doesn't require any real understanding of WWII. It also seems (to me) that people seem a lot more bothered by the history aspects of it than other aspects of it. If a 30-something looks lost when talking about Germany in WWII it's "a failure of the education system". If a 60-something looks lost when talking about technology which is also cultural literacy, people just figure it's fine. All of this is to say that a lack of cultural literacy isn't necessarily a failure of an educational system (IMO). It also TENDS to kind of work itself out if an individual cares to. If an individual hears "Luke, I am your father" and doesn't get it...they can figure it out if they want either by looking it up (so easy today to look up things online) or by asking the person who said it or a friend. Everyone knows that piece of pop culture. And I use that piece specifically because it's something that has become a part of culture that isn't even something "true".
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Dec 2, 2019 11:46:00 GMT -5
.. Someone not knowing that WWII was Germany against the world (with some help from Japan, Italy, etc.) bothers me a lot. ... Someone thinking this is true bothers me. Granted, not "a lot", but "knowing" things that aren't true is not better than not knowing things that are true.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,217
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2019 11:51:10 GMT -5
I'm more bothered by Holocaust denial than I am about people not knowing the Axis were Germany, Japan and Italy. Holocaust denial is yet another "alternative fact" and I am far more concerned with the ever growing popularity and legitimizing of those across all areas of life than I am about anything else. There are history buffs/professors who support holocaust denial.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2019 11:55:03 GMT -5
.. Someone not knowing that WWII was Germany against the world (with some help from Japan, Italy, etc.) bothers me a lot. ... Someone thinking this is true bothers me. Granted, not "a lot", but "knowing" things that aren't true is not better than not knowing things that are true. Depends a bit. If your concern is "cultural literacy" then it only matters what other people in the culture think is true. That to me is dangerous. Similar to me when I hear people talking about how the Civil War happened because Lincoln freed the slaves and the South revolted...not exactly. Or even the idea that "cultural literacy" is on par with actual knowledge. It's important to understand something well enough so you aren't culturally lost (i.e. even if I know there is no line of "Luke, I'm your father"...I understand what people are referencing...but we shouldn't let inaccurate but widely believed thoughts to become a substitute for actual knowledge). That's part of the problem with cultural literacy, it doesn't have to be true...and in the cases of things like propaganda can be dangerous.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,878
Member is Online
|
Post by happyhoix on Dec 2, 2019 12:01:15 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me. I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there. I don't think it's important to know the exact dates. But I do think it's important to understand why the Treaty of Versailles set up Germany for financial failure and inflation, which created the ripe breeding grounds for the nationalistic brown shirts to rise to power. It's also important to understand how, throughout history, groups tend to set up scapegoats - 'different' people they can blame for everything wrong in their society, and what can happen if that prejudice isn't snuffed out. It's also important to understand how a jingoistic, charismatic leader can gradually steer a whole country into becoming a fascist state, especially since so many western countries are currently seeing a rise in populist, nationalistic parties.
I also think there would be a lot fewer people who are currently wanting to be friendly with Russia if more people knew about the Russian revolution, Lenin, Stalin, and the cold war.
But to not even know we fought against the Germans in WWII? Crazy.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 12:02:48 GMT -5
I don't think I would have been able to rattle off the US allies or the names of any specific battles in WWII.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Dec 2, 2019 12:08:49 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me. I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there. I don't think it's important to know the exact dates. But I do think it's important to understand why the Treaty of Versailles set up Germany for financial failure and inflation, which created the ripe breeding grounds for the nationalistic brown shirts to rise to power. It's also important to understand how, throughout history, groups tend to set up scapegoats - 'different' people they can blame for everything wrong in their society, and what can happen if that prejudice isn't snuffed out. It's also important to understand how a jingoistic, charismatic leader can gradually steer a whole country into becoming a fascist state, especially since so many western countries are currently seeing a rise in populist, nationalistic parties.
I also think there would be a lot fewer people who are currently wanting to be friendly with Russia if more people knew about the Russian revolution, Lenin, Stalin, and the cold war.
But to not even know we fought against the Germans in WWII? Crazy.
I dunno, I think there would be a lot fewer people who would want to be friendly with any country if you really knew their history and focused on it. Would any country want to be friends with the US if you were highlighting to them what we did to Native Americans? How we treated American citizens of Japanese ancestry in WWII? Any large world-power is going to have some pretty terrible things you could highlight to be like "whoa, we should want no part of them".
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Dec 2, 2019 12:18:48 GMT -5
There is a portion of the human race who do not have an awareness of the world around them that is beyond their fingertips. If it does not impact them personally, they are not concerned about it. This extends to time as well as the physical world. I became much more aware of these people when I was working with students with learning disabilities. I think it is part of a psychologically profile for some people. It is how they are wired.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,157
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 2, 2019 12:25:36 GMT -5
Why is it important to know details about WWII? What is still important? The fact that "most were able to associate the Holocaust and the atomic bomb with WWII" seems good enough to me. I remember my junior/senior high school history classes as mainly the study of wars with little attention to the periods of not war that fell in-between. I was raised in an area that worshipped football and all my history teachers were football coaches. I think there is correlation there. I don't think it's important to know the exact dates. But I do think it's important to understand why the Treaty of Versailles set up Germany for financial failure and inflation, which created the ripe breeding grounds for the nationalistic brown shirts to rise to power. It's also important to understand how, throughout history, groups tend to set up scapegoats - 'different' people they can blame for everything wrong in their society, and what can happen if that prejudice isn't snuffed out. It's also important to understand how a jingoistic, charismatic leader can gradually steer a whole country into becoming a fascist state, especially since so many western countries are currently seeing a rise in populist, nationalistic parties.
I also think there would be a lot fewer people who are currently wanting to be friendly with Russia if more people knew about the Russian revolution, Lenin, Stalin, and the cold war.
But to not even know we fought against the Germans in WWII? Crazy.
Agreed. I don't the the exact dates, etc, but I do know what WWII and other wars were supposedly about.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 12:37:18 GMT -5
I don't think I would have been able to rattle off the US allies or the names of any specific battles in WWII. I was fortunate in that my parents, my dad a dentist with the U.S. army, and my mom, working for the U.S. government met on the (then) U.S. controlled Japanese island of Okinawa at the end of WWII. They took a few pictures of the dead Japanese citizens, women and children, who committed suicide who believed their leaders who told them they would be raped by American soldiers. WWII history and some of its battles were of interest to me. But then I was born only six years after the end of WWII and the world was still recovering from the war by the time I began grammar school. I also had a Catholic grammar school school mate who would get all excited when discussions came around to the atrocities committed against Jews in Europe. Pretty disgusting.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Dec 2, 2019 12:37:56 GMT -5
January 27, 2019 article. Ignorance about the Holocaust is growingIgnorance about the Holocaust is growing, particularly among young people. In the United States, a 2018 survey showed that 66% of millennials could not identify what the Auschwitz concentration and death camp was. ... Complete article here: Ignorance about the Holocaust is growingThis factoid in isolation proves nothing. You need two points to show growth. Also, how was the question asked? What was an acceptable level of "identify"?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 12:40:48 GMT -5
January 27, 2019 article. Ignorance about the Holocaust is growingIgnorance about the Holocaust is growing, particularly among young people. In the United States, a 2018 survey showed that 66% of millennials could not identify what the Auschwitz concentration and death camp was. ... Complete article here: Ignorance about the Holocaust is growingThis factoid in isolation proves nothing. You need two points to show growth. Also, how was the question asked? What was an acceptable level of "identify"? A link to the poll is provided in the article. Feel free to click on it.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Dec 2, 2019 12:49:31 GMT -5
This factoid in isolation proves nothing. You need two points to show growth. Also, how was the question asked? What was an acceptable level of "identify"? A link to the poll is provided in the article. Feel free to click on it. Clicked. Executive Summary, not of the poll itself. Hard to gain a true understanding from that.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 12:49:57 GMT -5
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,217
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 2, 2019 12:51:05 GMT -5
Of all the dirty ways to make a buck.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,422
|
Post by Tennesseer on Dec 2, 2019 12:55:33 GMT -5
A link to the poll is provided in the article. Feel free to click on it. Clicked. Executive Summary, not of the poll itself. Hard to gain a true understanding from that. Scroll down to the last paragraph of the link within the link and click on ComRes. There are then links to the survey there. You have to work at it to get to the questions.
|
|