tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Dec 4, 2019 20:38:26 GMT -5
I have a gas furnace and water heater so i'd have everything except the stove and laundry. I haven't lost power for any length of time yet but it has been happening around town. We have 4 adults, 2 dogs and a cat. Relocating for a power outage would be a PITA. The all in cost to get the wiring done for a plug in generator and the generator would be $3000 Cdn. Even if i never use it the peace of mind would be worth it I think. Later, your furnace probably won’t work during a power outage. The furnace burns gas, but all the furnace controls and the fans that distribute the warm air are electric. No power to the house = no power to turn the furnace on. Your water heater may or may not work, depending on how old it is. If it’s newer, your water heater might have electric control, like your furnace.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 4, 2019 21:08:12 GMT -5
I have a gas furnace and water heater so i'd have everything except the stove and laundry. I haven't lost power for any length of time yet but it has been happening around town. We have 4 adults, 2 dogs and a cat. Relocating for a power outage would be a PITA. The all in cost to get the wiring done for a plug in generator and the generator would be $3000 Cdn. Even if i never use it the peace of mind would be worth it I think. Later, your furnace probably won’t work during a power outage. The furnace burns gas, but all the furnace controls and the fans that distribute the warm air are electric. No power to the house = no power to turn the furnace on. Your water heater may or may not work, depending on how old it is. If it’s newer, your water heater might have electric control, like your furnace. I meant that the generatir would be enough to keep a gas furnace and water heater going along with some lights and tv.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Dec 5, 2019 7:47:54 GMT -5
Just a quick note before I head off to work. Please NEVER just plug your generator into your home service without a disconnect switch. What happens is the power will also back feed into the grid, and that step down transformer on your pole will work in reverse, becoming a step up transformer sending higher voltage current down the line.
This current can kill your neighbors and also your friendly linemen (and women) out working to restore your power! That’s why you never touch a downed line even if it looks “safe” as power may be coming from another source.
My safety message for the day.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 5, 2019 9:01:02 GMT -5
Just a quick note before I head off to work. Please NEVER just plug your generator into your home service without a disconnect switch. What happens is the power will also back feed into the grid, and that step down transformer on your pole will work in reverse, becoming a step up transformer sending higher voltage current down the line. This current can kill your neighbors and also your friendly linemen (and women) out working to restore your power! That’s why you never touch a downed line even if it looks “safe” as power may be coming from another source. My safety message for the day. It's also illegal to do this. People kill the main, plug the generator in, turn the generator off, then turn the main back on again. Then next time they forget to kill the main and there's no way to tell you've forgotten this step until something really dangerous happens. "Transfer switch" for anyone looking it up. Not that expensive. This is standard code in most places. They also make less expensive more manual versions called "interlocks" that provide some safety but I don't think are up to code in many locations. Personally, I'd spring for the transfer switch over the interlock...or run things on extension cords if you don't have a big fear of frequent, long term outages.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Dec 5, 2019 9:23:49 GMT -5
My husband developed some serious health problems as time went by. He has to have electricity for his C-PAP and some other medical things. We spent one night at our house three years ago in the worst of the worst cold snap we'd had in awhile ,after the power went out. The motels were all full because the blackout was so widespread. It was terrible and it made his circulation in his legs even worse than was before. I think he just can't produce bodily heat very well anymore. After that, we found a motel room for the rest of the week, but the following year, we got a Kohler generator installed and have never regretted it. Consumer Reports had rated Kohlers over Generacs. Most people liked their Generacs, but there were some reviews that started, " We lost power, and the Generac we had just installed didn't turn on." There were fewer reports of that ilk with the Kohlers. There were some, tho. We shopped around and got 7 bids on Kohlers. The bids varied by as much as $3000+ so it pays to shop around. We are very happy we got it. Installed, it was about $ 7800 which is a good price. It may be sunk money, but it gives us (him especially ) the security that we need. No regrets ETA - In our city, the installation company had to draw up plans on the location of the generator on the perimeter of the house, including their measurements taking the setback into consideration, submit them to the appropriate city office, get a permit, install it, and then then notify the city that it was done. Then, the inspector came out and made sure everything was good, and only then, was it "legal." There is an automatic kill switch ( transfer switch) as part of the setup. That all ran a few hundred bucks as well.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Dec 5, 2019 14:31:50 GMT -5
My husband developed some serious health problems as time went by. He has to have electricity for his C-PAP and some other medical things. We spent one night at our house three years ago in the worst of the worst cold snap we'd had in awhile ,after the power went out. The motels were all full because the blackout was so widespread. It was terrible and it made his circulation in his legs even worse than was before. I think he just can't produce bodily heat very well anymore. After that, we found a motel room for the rest of the week, but the following year, we got a Kohler generator installed and have never regretted it. Consumer Reports had rated Kohlers over Generacs. Most people liked their Generacs, but there were some reviews that started, " We lost power, and the Generac we had just installed didn't turn on." There were fewer reports of that ilk with the Kohlers. There were some, tho. We shopped around and got 7 bids on Kohlers. The bids varied by as much as $3000+ so it pays to shop around. We are very happy we got it. Installed, it was about $ 7800 which is a good price. It may be sunk money, but it gives us (him especially ) the security that we need. No regrets ETA - In our city, the installation company had to draw up plans on the location of the generator on the perimeter of the house, including their measurements taking the setback into consideration, submit them to the appropriate city office, get a permit, install it, and then then notify the city that it was done. Then, the inspector came out and made sure everything was good, and only then, was it "legal." There is an automatic kill switch ( transfer switch) as part of the setup. That all ran a few hundred bucks as well. NG, part of the reason the city worries about where you place your generator is because all generators put out carbon monoxide as part of the exhaust emissions. Put the generator too close to a window and you could end up with a house full of carbon monoxide.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 5, 2019 14:35:22 GMT -5
My husband developed some serious health problems as time went by. He has to have electricity for his C-PAP and some other medical things. We spent one night at our house three years ago in the worst of the worst cold snap we'd had in awhile ,after the power went out. The motels were all full because the blackout was so widespread. It was terrible and it made his circulation in his legs even worse than was before. I think he just can't produce bodily heat very well anymore. After that, we found a motel room for the rest of the week, but the following year, we got a Kohler generator installed and have never regretted it. Consumer Reports had rated Kohlers over Generacs. Most people liked their Generacs, but there were some reviews that started, " We lost power, and the Generac we had just installed didn't turn on." There were fewer reports of that ilk with the Kohlers. There were some, tho. We shopped around and got 7 bids on Kohlers. The bids varied by as much as $3000+ so it pays to shop around. We are very happy we got it. Installed, it was about $ 7800 which is a good price. It may be sunk money, but it gives us (him especially ) the security that we need. No regrets ETA - In our city, the installation company had to draw up plans on the location of the generator on the perimeter of the house, including their measurements taking the setback into consideration, submit them to the appropriate city office, get a permit, install it, and then then notify the city that it was done. Then, the inspector came out and made sure everything was good, and only then, was it "legal." There is an automatic kill switch ( transfer switch) as part of the setup. That all ran a few hundred bucks as well. NG, part of the reason the city worries about where you place your generator is because all generators put out carbon monoxide as part of the exhaust emissions. Put the generator too close to a window and you could end up with a house full of carbon monoxide. That's also part of what makes generators a bit of a pain sometimes. It's often not great weather outside when you need to use one. It's not a great idea to put it in the garage (I know people do it, and some people take significant precautions while doing it). You've got to refuel it, you don't want it getting soaking wet, etc. Honestly, with how many people just have little generators to use...I'm surprised we don't hear more about frequent accidents either with people backloading the grid by plugging them into an outlet or people filling their house with CO.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 5, 2019 14:49:39 GMT -5
Later - Just curious what sized generator you're getting.
We've got 2 2200 watt generators (small just carry them around, new-ish Hondas) and a big old green Briggs & Stratton that's probably 8000-10000 watts. The B&S is "movable" but it's heavy AF and not on wheels because apparently realizing heavy things should be on wheels is a more recent idea.
If yours is big enough (which I assume it will be large if it's going to connect to your house directly) make sure you get one with wheels that can be moved. Also if you haven't already purchased it, check how much fuel it holds...you want it to run long enough you aren't getting up in the middle of the night to refill the fuel tank.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 5, 2019 14:57:31 GMT -5
Later - Just curious what sized generator you're getting. We've got 2 2200 watt generators (small just carry them around, new-ish Hondas) and a big old green Briggs & Stratton that's probably 8000-10000 watts. The B&S is "movable" but it's heavy AF and not on wheels because apparently realizing heavy things should be on wheels is a more recent idea. If yours is big enough (which I assume it will be large if it's going to connect to your house directly) make sure you get one with wheels that can be moved. Also if you haven't already purchased it, check how much fuel it holds...you want it to run long enough you aren't getting up in the middle of the night to refill the fuel tank. My electrician recommended a 5000-7500 watt generator and the ones I've been looking at all have wheels. I'm on hold at the moment because ISO "knows a guy that knows a guy", apparently an electrician that will work cheaper. But they aren't getting back to me "because he goes to school and he's busy" blah bah blah. How long does a phone call take?!?!?! He has one more day and the hell with his feelings, I'm just booking my electrician.
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Deleted
Joined: Apr 29, 2024 14:21:58 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 20:17:17 GMT -5
My husband developed some serious health problems as time went by. He has to have electricity for his C-PAP and some other medical things. We spent one night at our house three years ago in the worst of the worst cold snap we'd had in awhile ,after the power went out. The motels were all full because the blackout was so widespread. It was terrible and it made his circulation in his legs even worse than was before. I think he just can't produce bodily heat very well anymore. After that, we found a motel room for the rest of the week, but the following year, we got a Kohler generator installed and have never regretted it. Consumer Reports had rated Kohlers over Generacs. Most people liked their Generacs, but there were some reviews that started, " We lost power, and the Generac we had just installed didn't turn on." There were fewer reports of that ilk with the Kohlers. There were some, tho. We shopped around and got 7 bids on Kohlers. The bids varied by as much as $3000+ so it pays to shop around. We are very happy we got it. Installed, it was about $ 7800 which is a good price. It may be sunk money, but it gives us (him especially ) the security that we need. No regrets ETA - In our city, the installation company had to draw up plans on the location of the generator on the perimeter of the house, including their measurements taking the setback into consideration, submit them to the appropriate city office, get a permit, install it, and then then notify the city that it was done. Then, the inspector came out and made sure everything was good, and only then, was it "legal." There is an automatic kill switch ( transfer switch) as part of the setup. That all ran a few hundred bucks as well. Our was about $9,000 but the fact that it had to be located at the back of the property and a hand-dug trench under massive trees roots done to bring the connection to the house, bumped up the cost and restoring both the grass sod and flagstone patio added a couple of grand too. It was permitted by the city and had to be approved by our civic association as well. We invested in the generator so we can stay at home during storms and outages and it's been worth every cent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 20:34:16 GMT -5
Where I moved from, the power would go out if the wind blew. In 18 years, it only stayed out for days a couple of times that I remember. The last time was since I’ve been with DBF and neither of us had power for several days even though we lived ~20 miles apart. His power came back on before mine. Mine was out for a week or so.
He mentioned that maybe we should get a generator for my house, but I never said “yes, let’s do it”.
Now, where we live, the power lines coming to the house are buried. In the few months we’ve lived here, we’ve already had some bad storms and strong winds that caused power outages across the area, but we didn’t lose power.
It seems to me like running a generator requires close attention. Even moreso after reading tskeeter’s post. I didn’t even really understand what he was talking about except for the danger! danger! aspect.
Hopefully we won’t need or want one here. My other house lost power during some of the storms we’ve had since I moved, but for hours, not days. DBF says that even buried power lines come off a pole somewhere, but so far it’s not been as much of a gamble with losing power as it is at my other house.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 5, 2019 20:39:49 GMT -5
Our electric lines are buried. DH bought this place in 2015. Other than momentary blips, we've lost power once. It was this summer and there was a big fire somewhere on the lines.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 6, 2019 8:34:14 GMT -5
Where I moved from, the power would go out if the wind blew. In 18 years, it only stayed out for days a couple of times that I remember. The last time was since I’ve been with DBF and neither of us had power for several days even though we lived ~20 miles apart. His power came back on before mine. Mine was out for a week or so. He mentioned that maybe we should get a generator for my house, but I never said “yes, let’s do it”. Now, where we live, the power lines coming to the house are buried. In the few months we’ve lived here, we’ve already had some bad storms and strong winds that caused power outages across the area, but we didn’t lose power. It seems to me like running a generator requires close attention. Even moreso after reading tskeeter’s post. I didn’t even really understand what he was talking about except for the danger! danger! aspect. Hopefully we won’t need or want one here. My other house lost power during some of the storms we’ve had since I moved, but for hours, not days. DBF says that even buried power lines come off a pole somewhere, but so far it’s not been as much of a gamble with losing power as it is at my other house. I think it would be accurate to say that RUNNING the generator does not really require close attention. Figuring out your setup requires some understanding though. Once you've figured out your setup (how do you wire it in or use extension cords, where is a safe place to put it, etc...actually running it doesn't require much more than remembering to fill the fuel. In that way it's kind of a good situation. It requires a minor one-time investment of your time to gain the knowledge and come up with a plan...then afterwards it's pretty straightforward. It doesn't take much effort once you're at the point of needing it and running it if you've done the pre-work of understanding how you'll need to set up.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 6, 2019 15:40:09 GMT -5
Where I moved from, the power would go out if the wind blew. In 18 years, it only stayed out for days a couple of times that I remember. The last time was since I’ve been with DBF and neither of us had power for several days even though we lived ~20 miles apart. His power came back on before mine. Mine was out for a week or so. He mentioned that maybe we should get a generator for my house, but I never said “yes, let’s do it”. Now, where we live, the power lines coming to the house are buried. In the few months we’ve lived here, we’ve already had some bad storms and strong winds that caused power outages across the area, but we didn’t lose power. It seems to me like running a generator requires close attention. Even moreso after reading tskeeter’s post. I didn’t even really understand what he was talking about except for the danger! danger! aspect. Hopefully we won’t need or want one here. My other house lost power during some of the storms we’ve had since I moved, but for hours, not days. DBF says that even buried power lines come off a pole somewhere, but so far it’s not been as much of a gamble with losing power as it is at my other house. I think it would be accurate to say that RUNNING the generator does not really require close attention. Figuring out your setup requires some understanding though. Once you've figured out your setup (how do you wire it in or use extension cords, where is a safe place to put it, etc...actually running it doesn't require much more than remembering to fill the fuel. In that way it's kind of a good situation. It requires a minor one-time investment of your time to gain the knowledge and come up with a plan...then afterwards it's pretty straightforward. It doesn't take much effort once you're at the point of needing it and running it if you've done the pre-work of understanding how you'll need to set up. You just need to figure out the semantics as to how to make it work best for you. For instance, we leave our's in an open garage during the day. We do not have it run during the night, there really is no need for it and it just wastes fuel. So during the day, the generator sits at the entrance of our 2 car garage and the cars are parked such that no one can 'borrow' it. We have it on a dolly on wheels, so it moves fairly easily. It did take some figuring out as to how to get everything we needed working, but that was more a matter of figuring out what item was on what circuit in the house. Once that was figured out, it takes less than 10 min to set it up and get it running (and that includes moving the cars). We also have loaned it out to others. Our neighbor's freezer was starting to thaw, so we wheeled it over to his house for several hours to get his freezer cold again. We have a fireplace with a blower motor that is hooked into the LR circuit of power. So for us, it is easier to just use the fireplace (which does work very well in keeping the upstairs fairly warm) as a heat source, but hooking up the furnace blower motor isn't that big of a deal either.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 7, 2019 17:28:13 GMT -5
So the generator is bought. Originally it was $1299, on sale for $999, plus an extra 16% off for signing up for the store CC. So $840! I'm pleased. It's a 7.5 kw with battery start Champion. I looked at the hondas but the price of those was crazy, for something i hope to only use once in 20 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 18:08:06 GMT -5
Just a little reminder for those of you using portable generators-if you are going to store the gasoline for them more than a few months consider using an anti-gel additive or, even easier, cycle the gasoline through your car, lawnmower, etc. If gas sits too long it gels up and your generator will not work. And the repair bill is not pretty because the bad gas damages the carburetor. That's part of the reason we went with the whole house; we were tired of storing and cycling 20 gallons of fuel every year.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Dec 9, 2019 1:23:59 GMT -5
Just a quick note before I head off to work. Please NEVER just plug your generator into your home service without a disconnect switch. What happens is the power will also back feed into the grid, and that step down transformer on your pole will work in reverse, becoming a step up transformer sending higher voltage current down the line. This current can kill your neighbors and also your friendly linemen (and women) out working to restore your power! That’s why you never touch a downed line even if it looks “safe” as power may be coming from another source. My safety message for the day. It's also illegal to do this. People kill the main, plug the generator in, turn the generator off, then turn the main back on again. Then next time they forget to kill the main and there's no way to tell you've forgotten this step until something really dangerous happens. "Transfer switch" for anyone looking it up. Not that expensive. This is standard code in most places. They also make less expensive more manual versions called "interlocks" that provide some safety but I don't think are up to code in many locations. Personally, I'd spring for the transfer switch over the interlock...or run things on extension cords if you don't have a big fear of frequent, long term outages. The interlock gives you more options and is less expensive. It's safe if installed correctly, which is the same for the transfer switch. In both states / locations where I have lived, interlock switches are code complient. I had one installed in both locations, with an electrical permit, of course. In many cases, interlock switches are available from the electrical panel makers. Example: www.google.com/url?q=https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/download%3FBTLV_42237&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiEqcmG-qfmAhWWqZ4KHe2EDUcQFjACegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1uyVjbH_JCgQ9MWbUVWwZ_Out of curiosity, where are interlock switches not allowed?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 9, 2019 8:58:04 GMT -5
It's also illegal to do this. People kill the main, plug the generator in, turn the generator off, then turn the main back on again. Then next time they forget to kill the main and there's no way to tell you've forgotten this step until something really dangerous happens. "Transfer switch" for anyone looking it up. Not that expensive. This is standard code in most places. They also make less expensive more manual versions called "interlocks" that provide some safety but I don't think are up to code in many locations. Personally, I'd spring for the transfer switch over the interlock...or run things on extension cords if you don't have a big fear of frequent, long term outages. The interlock gives you more options and is less expensive. It's safe if installed correctly, which is the same for the transfer switch. In both states / locations where I have lived, interlock switches are code complient. I had one installed in both locations, with an electrical permit, of course. In many cases, interlock switches are available from the electrical panel makers. Example: www.google.com/url?q=https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/download%3FBTLV_42237&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiEqcmG-qfmAhWWqZ4KHe2EDUcQFjACegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1uyVjbH_JCgQ9MWbUVWwZ_Out of curiosity, where are interlock switches not allowed?I'm honestly not sure. When I was researching options for our new house I just kept seeing disclaimers about the interlock switches talking about how many areas have not added them as being code-compliant options. Also saw quite a few forum entries in other locations about people whose inspector wouldn't allow them (which is different than "up to code" since a lot of inspectors, my area included, just kind of make up their own rules). When I asked our local inspector, it definitely sounded like a "make up your own rules" thing. Or at least a "my interpretation" thing. It essentially hinges on the idea that when doing this, it's supposed to be set up so that only someone "qualified" can mess with it. With an interlock switch though, anyone can just go and start messing with it (removing it, adding it, whatever). You can't do that with a transfer switch (i.e. it's not just a piece that sits on top that you can easily go and remove). So in terms of the "make up your own rules" thing...in my area I can do any work I want on my own house without being licensed (electrical, plumbing, whatever). The inspector said he'd sign off on an interlock, but only if I had it installed by a licensed electrician. When I pointed out it was my house and I could do work normally reserved for a licensed electrician, his explanation was "yeah, but I'd want someone licensed since it would really hurt other people if you did it wrong" (i.e. people not on my property by backfeeding the lines). He didn't want to be the person responsible for figuring out if I'd installed it correctly to have him sign off on it, he wanted a qualified electrician. Most of what I saw hinged on the same fact. This kind of thing is supposed to be done by someone licensed, and is supposed to be designed that ONLY someone qualified can do it (which seemed to be interpreted as a wired solution). Since this is basically just something sitting on the surface anyone can access, some places won't let it happen.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Dec 9, 2019 14:13:58 GMT -5
You would have to remove the panel cover to mess with the interlock. With some panels, even the breaker would have to be taken out. If I take off the panel cover, I can also mess with any wiring, including that of a transfer switch while only needing a screw driver. And if you pass the electrical inspection by your local authorities (wether you installed it or an electrician), then any inspector would be wrong to flag it, and you have proof. In my case, the inspection and approval sticker is right inside the panel door. I like that you have more options with the interlock switch. I could run the oven or water heater if I wanted to or had to, just not much more in that case. Like the power goes out during the Thanksgiving turkey dinner prep? No problem. I don't think you can do that with a transfer switch. And the overall cost is quite a bit lower compared to a transfer switch.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 9, 2019 15:07:28 GMT -5
You would have to remove the panel cover to mess with the interlock. With some panels, even the breaker would have to be taken out. If I take off the panel cover, I can also mess with any wiring, including that of a transfer switch while only needing a screw driver.And if you pass the electrical inspection by your local authorities (wether you installed it or an electrician), then any inspector would be wrong to flag it, and you have proof. In my case, the inspection and approval sticker is right inside the panel door. I like that you have more options with the interlock switch. I could run the oven or water heater if I wanted to or had to, just not much more in that case. Like the power goes out during the Thanksgiving turkey dinner prep? No problem. I don't think you can do that with a transfer switch. And the overall cost is quite a bit lower compared to a transfer switch. You could, but it's about a billion times easier to remove a few screws and take the interlock off than it is to rewire the transfer switch in order to backfeed the grid. There's also not a lot of POINT in undoing the transfer switch. You've got it so that it provides the service it is installed to provide, if you disable it then you're no longer providing power to the house from the generator. If you take the interlock off you still get the power from the generator, and it's actually more convenient for you to do it since you no longer have to move the plate around to flip the breakers. The transfer switch is basically the ultimate in hands-off service...there's very little reason to go in and make it harder on purpose. The interlock though is harder than simply not having it there. Without it there you simply skip a step in the normal process of switching the power. There is therefore a reason for people to remove it and save themselves a little time (even though it's a safety feature, there are remarkably a lot of people out there who don't seem to care much for safety features if it means saving a few seconds). It's a mechanical, but not electrical, solution to not backfeeding the grid. It works fine as long as people don't remove it, but it's remarkably easy for anyone to remove.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 9, 2019 15:16:20 GMT -5
Ultimately, a lot of "what's best" comes down to the question of "How much do I trust people not to be total morons?". If you trust them, the interlock is fine and serves a low-cost purpose. In general, I don't trust people not to be completely stupid when being dumb gives them a very slight convenience over being smart.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Dec 9, 2019 15:50:29 GMT -5
Ultimately, a lot of "what's best" comes down to the question of "How much do I trust people not to be total morons?". If you trust them, the interlock is fine and serves a low-cost purpose. In general, I don't trust people not to be completely stupid when being dumb gives them a very slight convenience over being smart. Hoops, not sure I follow. Who do I need to trust? It's installed in my home, and I am the only one with access to it (besides my wife & kids, and I do trust them that they won't remove the generator cover). I am the only person who will operate it.
And besides the concerns that you have raised, the interlock solution provides me with more flexibility, because I can pick ANY circuit form either one of my two breaker panels, including the 240V circuits. No need to pre-select, like you have to do with the transfer switch. I find your reasoning for people removing an interlock switch unlikely as well. I don't think switching over to the generator takes any extra time using the interlock. Well, maybe one second? Who would spend half an hour to remove the switch to save a second (or less)?
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 9, 2019 16:29:08 GMT -5
Ultimately, a lot of "what's best" comes down to the question of "How much do I trust people not to be total morons?". If you trust them, the interlock is fine and serves a low-cost purpose. In general, I don't trust people not to be completely stupid when being dumb gives them a very slight convenience over being smart. Hoops, not sure I follow. Who do I need to trust? It's installed in my home, and I am the only one with access to it (besides my wife & kids, and I do trust them that they won't remove the generator cover). I am the only person who will operate it.
And besides the concerns that you have raised, the interlock solution provides me with more flexibility, because I can pick ANY circuit form either one of my two breaker panels, including the 240V circuits. No need to pre-select, like you have to do with the transfer switch. I find your reasoning for people removing an interlock switch unlikely as well. I don't think switching over to the generator takes any extra time using the interlock. Well, maybe one second? Who would spend half an hour to remove the switch to save a second (or less)?
YOU don't need to trust anyone for your own panel. But inspectors need to trust that people aren't removing interlocks, or they risk killing people working on the electrical grid during outages due to backfeeding. I would feel perfectly fine having an interlock myself, because I'm not going to screw with it and create a dangerous situation. But in terms of what is/should be code...you have to consider the average person. The interlock comes off in a couple of minutes max, not half an hour by any stretch of the imagination. In terms of likelihood...people do ALL KINDS of stupid stuff with dumb justifications in their mind for it all the time. I'm more willing to let those people make dumb decisions and hurt themselves in a greater way than I'm willing to let them make dumb decisions which might kill others though. Who would risk a robbery by not locking their doors? Who would risk a deadly crash by not signaling a lane change? You think the reason is unlikely...I think it's a BAD reason for sure. That's why it comes down to how smart/stupid you think the population at large is. You think they're smart so they wouldn't do something stupid like that. I think they're overall incredibly stupid and devoid of common sense. I don't begrudge some individuals from having them...plenty of individuals are smart enough not to backload the grid and kill someone..but it's a different view between "is this guy smart enough" vs "is the entire population smart enough". But there are also a lot of things where I think "they should probably let some of us go ahead and do that because we can handle it...but boy am I glad they don't let everyone do that". There's certainly flexibility with the interlock you don't have with a transfer switch. I'm just saying I understand inspectors who think it's a bad idea to put someone's life in the hands of the average homeowner. I also understand the idea that perhaps interlocks aren't viable code given the specific language around generator transfers of power, and the requirement that it be someone licensed handling the power exchanges (because it's tough to argue that a sliding metal panel is really required to be done by someone expert when anyone with a screwdriver can remove it). I THINK what's happened is they wrote the code with transfer switches in mind...an electrical solution to the problem...and now they're faced with figuring out how to handle a non-electrical solution to an electrical problem (in essence, someone built a low-cost smart solution which is pretty darned good). It's probably also worth calling out a downside to interlocks I don't think we've mentioned. You have to know when power comes back on, because it's not automatic like the transfer switch (probably a minor issue for most folks).
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schildi
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3718 and no text
Joined: Jan 14, 2011 1:38:58 GMT -5
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Post by schildi on Dec 9, 2019 20:10:10 GMT -5
Hoops, not sure I follow. Who do I need to trust? It's installed in my home, and I am the only one with access to it (besides my wife & kids, and I do trust them that they won't remove the generator cover). I am the only person who will operate it.
And besides the concerns that you have raised, the interlock solution provides me with more flexibility, because I can pick ANY circuit form either one of my two breaker panels, including the 240V circuits. No need to pre-select, like you have to do with the transfer switch. I find your reasoning for people removing an interlock switch unlikely as well. I don't think switching over to the generator takes any extra time using the interlock. Well, maybe one second? Who would spend half an hour to remove the switch to save a second (or less)?
YOU don't need to trust anyone for your own panel. But inspectors need to trust that people aren't removing interlocks, or they risk killing people working on the electrical grid during outages due to backfeeding. I would feel perfectly fine having an interlock myself, because I'm not going to screw with it and create a dangerous situation. But in terms of what is/should be code...you have to consider the average person. The interlock comes off in a couple of minutes max, not half an hour by any stretch of the imagination. In terms of likelihood...people do ALL KINDS of stupid stuff with dumb justifications in their mind for it all the time. I'm more willing to let those people make dumb decisions and hurt themselves in a greater way than I'm willing to let them make dumb decisions which might kill others though. Who would risk a robbery by not locking their doors? Who would risk a deadly crash by not signaling a lane change? You think the reason is unlikely...I think it's a BAD reason for sure. That's why it comes down to how smart/stupid you think the population at large is. You think they're smart so they wouldn't do something stupid like that. I think they're overall incredibly stupid and devoid of common sense. I don't begrudge some individuals from having them...plenty of individuals are smart enough not to backload the grid and kill someone..but it's a different view between "is this guy smart enough" vs "is the entire population smart enough". But there are also a lot of things where I think "they should probably let some of us go ahead and do that because we can handle it...but boy am I glad they don't let everyone do that". There's certainly flexibility with the interlock you don't have with a transfer switch. I'm just saying I understand inspectors who think it's a bad idea to put someone's life in the hands of the average homeowner. I also understand the idea that perhaps interlocks aren't viable code given the specific language around generator transfers of power, and the requirement that it be someone licensed handling the power exchanges (because it's tough to argue that a sliding metal panel is really required to be done by someone expert when anyone with a screwdriver can remove it). I THINK what's happened is they wrote the code with transfer switches in mind...an electrical solution to the problem...and now they're faced with figuring out how to handle a non-electrical solution to an electrical problem (in essence, someone built a low-cost smart solution which is pretty darned good). It's probably also worth calling out a downside to interlocks I don't think we've mentioned. You have to know when power comes back on, because it's not automatic like the transfer switch (probably a minor issue for most folks). Oh, hoops, I see now where you are coming from. We have been talking about two slightly different things: You addressed the issue of interlock switches in general, I was focused on my specific case. In my previous home, I have installed the interlock myself and got it inspected / permitted. I am an electrical engineer, I feel good about MY interlock switch, and I am sure it's 100% safe in my house. On the general usage of interlock switches - don't think we need to discuss that much more. I have no influence on that. Electricians install these everywhere around here, and I can't stop it. As for the power coming back on - you are talking about an automatic transfer switch, which is even more expensive than a manual transfer switch (which itself is significantly more than an interlock switch). An automatic transfer switch only really makes sense with permanently installed whole house generators, right?!? The more commonly used (at least with portable generators) manual transfer switch has that same drawback when the power comes back on, right? What I usually do is look outside at a bright light down the (gravel) road, on top of one of the power poles. It tracks power outages closely. Also, a look at my own meter will tell me, as we have an all digital meter, and when the power is out, the display is off. BTW, my interlock switches (one for each panel) will not come off in two minutes, and a screw driver will not do it either. They are attached with rivets / riveted bolts. In general, I am not really disagreeing with you, but I much prefer an interlock switch for MY house. And with it being legal and passing inspections, I am not sure an inspector can really flag it as needing a correction. Speaking of inspectors, OMG: when I sold my previous house, the buyer's inspector insisted that I change the septic alarm's outlet in the garage to non-GFCI. Which, of course, would be against code. So I refused. Had to get it in writing from an electric company that they will NOT perform that requested work as it would result in a code violation. Inspectors can be a big headache ....
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 8:46:16 GMT -5
YOU don't need to trust anyone for your own panel. But inspectors need to trust that people aren't removing interlocks, or they risk killing people working on the electrical grid during outages due to backfeeding. I would feel perfectly fine having an interlock myself, because I'm not going to screw with it and create a dangerous situation. But in terms of what is/should be code...you have to consider the average person. The interlock comes off in a couple of minutes max, not half an hour by any stretch of the imagination. In terms of likelihood...people do ALL KINDS of stupid stuff with dumb justifications in their mind for it all the time. I'm more willing to let those people make dumb decisions and hurt themselves in a greater way than I'm willing to let them make dumb decisions which might kill others though. Who would risk a robbery by not locking their doors? Who would risk a deadly crash by not signaling a lane change? You think the reason is unlikely...I think it's a BAD reason for sure. That's why it comes down to how smart/stupid you think the population at large is. You think they're smart so they wouldn't do something stupid like that. I think they're overall incredibly stupid and devoid of common sense. I don't begrudge some individuals from having them...plenty of individuals are smart enough not to backload the grid and kill someone..but it's a different view between "is this guy smart enough" vs "is the entire population smart enough". But there are also a lot of things where I think "they should probably let some of us go ahead and do that because we can handle it...but boy am I glad they don't let everyone do that". There's certainly flexibility with the interlock you don't have with a transfer switch. I'm just saying I understand inspectors who think it's a bad idea to put someone's life in the hands of the average homeowner. I also understand the idea that perhaps interlocks aren't viable code given the specific language around generator transfers of power, and the requirement that it be someone licensed handling the power exchanges (because it's tough to argue that a sliding metal panel is really required to be done by someone expert when anyone with a screwdriver can remove it). I THINK what's happened is they wrote the code with transfer switches in mind...an electrical solution to the problem...and now they're faced with figuring out how to handle a non-electrical solution to an electrical problem (in essence, someone built a low-cost smart solution which is pretty darned good). It's probably also worth calling out a downside to interlocks I don't think we've mentioned. You have to know when power comes back on, because it's not automatic like the transfer switch (probably a minor issue for most folks). Oh, hoops, I see now where you are coming from. We have been talking about two slightly different things: You addressed the issue of interlock switches in general, I was focused on my specific case. In my previous home, I have installed the interlock myself and got it inspected / permitted. I am an electrical engineer, I feel good about MY interlock switch, and I am sure it's 100% safe in my house. On the general usage of interlock switches - don't think we need to discuss that much more. I have no influence on that. Electricians install these everywhere around here, and I can't stop it. As for the power coming back on - you are talking about an automatic transfer switch, which is even more expensive than a manual transfer switch (which itself is significantly more than an interlock switch). An automatic transfer switch only really makes sense with permanently installed whole house generators, right?!? The more commonly used (at least with portable generators) manual transfer switch has that same drawback when the power comes back on, right? What I usually do is look outside at a bright light down the (gravel) road, on top of one of the power poles. It tracks power outages closely. Also, a look at my own meter will tell me, as we have an all digital meter, and when the power is out, the display is off. BTW, my interlock switches (one for each panel) will not come off in two minutes, and a screw driver will not do it either. They are attached with rivets / riveted bolts. In general, I am not really disagreeing with you, but I much prefer an interlock switch for MY house. And with it being legal and passing inspections, I am not sure an inspector can really flag it as needing a correction. Speaking of inspectors, OMG: when I sold my previous house, the buyer's inspector insisted that I change the septic alarm's outlet in the garage to non-GFCI. Which, of course, would be against code. So I refused. Had to get it in writing from an electric company that they will NOT perform that requested work as it would result in a code violation. Inspectors can be a big headache .... We've only ever had manual transfer switches...my understanding though (and I might be wrong) is that there's still advantage in having an automatic transfer switch even with a portable generator. Your power goes off (which you'll know about assuming you are home), the transfer switch has no grid power and switches over finding no power. You go hook up your portable generator, the generator powers things, and when power comes back on you have grid power again and all your circuits work...at which point you go remove the portable generator. You still have to manually set up the conversion over TO the generator by getting it out and hooked up, but the movement back away from it to grid power is still automatic (per my understanding of it). I wouldn't expect anyone to flag your interlock now that it has passed...the issue was in getting it passed initially (honestly, I've had a pretty old house that I've renovated and never had anyone go back in and look at previous work to flag it...around here once you get that first "pass" you're pretty much home free going forward on that item). I expect that pretty much everyone will prefer an interlock over a manual transfer switch for their own home. It's less expensive and provides a greater amount of control by the homeowner.
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schildi
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Joined: Jan 14, 2011 1:38:58 GMT -5
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Post by schildi on Dec 10, 2019 9:38:34 GMT -5
Oh, hoops, I see now where you are coming from. We have been talking about two slightly different things: You addressed the issue of interlock switches in general, I was focused on my specific case. In my previous home, I have installed the interlock myself and got it inspected / permitted. I am an electrical engineer, I feel good about MY interlock switch, and I am sure it's 100% safe in my house. On the general usage of interlock switches - don't think we need to discuss that much more. I have no influence on that. Electricians install these everywhere around here, and I can't stop it. As for the power coming back on - you are talking about an automatic transfer switch, which is even more expensive than a manual transfer switch (which itself is significantly more than an interlock switch). An automatic transfer switch only really makes sense with permanently installed whole house generators, right?!? The more commonly used (at least with portable generators) manual transfer switch has that same drawback when the power comes back on, right? What I usually do is look outside at a bright light down the (gravel) road, on top of one of the power poles. It tracks power outages closely. Also, a look at my own meter will tell me, as we have an all digital meter, and when the power is out, the display is off. BTW, my interlock switches (one for each panel) will not come off in two minutes, and a screw driver will not do it either. They are attached with rivets / riveted bolts. In general, I am not really disagreeing with you, but I much prefer an interlock switch for MY house. And with it being legal and passing inspections, I am not sure an inspector can really flag it as needing a correction. Speaking of inspectors, OMG: when I sold my previous house, the buyer's inspector insisted that I change the septic alarm's outlet in the garage to non-GFCI. Which, of course, would be against code. So I refused. Had to get it in writing from an electric company that they will NOT perform that requested work as it would result in a code violation. Inspectors can be a big headache .... We've only ever had manual transfer switches...my understanding though (and I might be wrong) is that there's still advantage in having an automatic transfer switch even with a portable generator. Your power goes off (which you'll know about assuming you are home), the transfer switch has no grid power and switches over finding no power. You go hook up your portable generator, the generator powers things, and when power comes back on you have grid power again and all your circuits work...at which point you go remove the portable generator. You still have to manually set up the conversion over TO the generator by getting it out and hooked up, but the movement back away from it to grid power is still automatic (per my understanding of it). I wouldn't expect anyone to flag your interlock now that it has passed...the issue was in getting it passed initially (honestly, I've had a pretty old house that I've renovated and never had anyone go back in and look at previous work to flag it...around here once you get that first "pass" you're pretty much home free going forward on that item). I expect that pretty much everyone will prefer an interlock over a manual transfer switch for their own home. It's less expensive and provides a greater amount of control by the homeowner. Yeah, I agree. We are on the same page.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Dec 10, 2019 12:05:36 GMT -5
Damn you all 🙂. After reading through this thread, I started researching whole house generators and I can have a 20 kW unit installed for @ $6k, now I’ve got something else to add to my 2020 “to do” list
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laterbloomer
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Generators
Dec 10, 2019 13:56:58 GMT -5
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 10, 2019 13:56:58 GMT -5
Damn you all 🙂. After reading through this thread, I started researching whole house generators and I can have a 20 kW unit installed for @ $6k, now I’ve got something else to add to my 2020 “to do” list Lol😁
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 16:57:46 GMT -5
Damn you all 🙂. After reading through this thread, I started researching whole house generators and I can have a 20 kW unit installed for @ $6k, now I’ve got something else to add to my 2020 “to do” list You won't regret it. Our "little" 3 hour outage Saturday was, as I suspected, "animal involved incident" according to the power company. AKA fried squirrel. Nine houses were affected; other than having to reset the microwave and range clock, no disruption of life for me. Heater, breakfast, lights, coffee, shower as usual.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Dec 10, 2019 20:14:15 GMT -5
Damn you all 🙂. After reading through this thread, I started researching whole house generators and I can have a 20 kW unit installed for @ $6k, now I’ve got something else to add to my 2020 “to do” list Unless you live in a power outage ridden area, a $1,200 - $1,500 portable generator should do (including installation). $6K for a whole house generator does sound like a good price though. Does that include installation? I doubt it. What I don't like about the whole house generators is the maintenance involved. It's a combustion engine, and as such, needs regular maintenance. With a $500 - $600 portable generator, it's not all quite as critical, your potential loss is very limited (as in - worst case, buy a new one).
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