thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 11, 2019 13:52:48 GMT -5
Sometimes I think people take the PC thing a little too far. A while back one of my coworkers couldn't recall the name of an engineer that was looking for me. She went on and on trying to describe him by hair color and the way he talked and what not. Finally it dawned on me. I ask her, "Do you mean "K", the guy in a wheelchair"? THE ONLY FREAKING GUY IN A WHEELCHAIR AMONG THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES?!?! She was so worried about even bringing up the fact that he was handicapped.
I had a co worker describing an IT guy to me and he whispered "black". I assured my co worker that the guy probably knew he was black, and we could just say it out loud.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Dec 11, 2019 22:49:03 GMT -5
2 of my kids are black. Its hysterical how many people tiptoe around this. Or who look at me horrified when I mention it. Like, really? I know I have black, brown and white kids.......Give us a break!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 13, 2019 14:45:09 GMT -5
2 of my kids are black. Its hysterical how many people tiptoe around this. Or who look at me horrified when I mention it. Like, really? I know I have black, brown and white kids.......Give us a break! Are you surprised? Everyone looks for something to be offended about.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 13, 2019 16:47:38 GMT -5
2 of my kids are black. Its hysterical how many people tiptoe around this. Or who look at me horrified when I mention it. Like, really? I know I have black, brown and white kids.......Give us a break! Are you surprised? Everyone looks for something to be offended about. I read a thing about Southpark, and how they have offended everyone at one point or another. We had watched Southpark for years, and I had never been offended. I felt a little left out. A little while later, we were watching and they said something and I made that tsk sound and my adrenaline started, and then I said "Hey - they finally offended me!!" And I was happy. Maybe they are so successful because we all want to be offended by something at some point.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 13, 2019 16:55:32 GMT -5
Are you surprised? Everyone looks for something to be offended about. I read a thing about Southpark, and how they have offended everyone at one point or another. We had watched Southpark for years, and I had never been offended. I felt a little left out. A little while later, we were watching and they said something and I made that tsk sound and my adrenaline started, and then I said "Hey - they finally offended me!!" And I was happy. Maybe they are so successful because we all want to be offended by something at some point. There's a certain freedom in comedy where you feel more free to laugh if the offense is either at you...or if you've also been offended (or had a right to feel offended) so that you can laugh at others being offended with the fallback of "hey they said shit about me too". For example, it's a lot more comfortable for white people to laugh at a comedian who makes fun of white people, then makes fun of black people, then makes fun of asians, and so on down the line...than it is for a white person to laugh at a comedian who only seems to make fun of black people. South Park is so offensive to everyone it's kind of freeing...even if they aren't actively making fun of you...you know they won't mind doing it at some point, so you're free to just enjoy the offensiveness of it all. The saying "if everything is offensive, then nothing is offensive" applies.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Dec 13, 2019 22:30:43 GMT -5
It depends. My black kids use the 'n' word at each other. My gay kid uses similar slurs with his friends. But it would be inappropriate for the rest of us to use them. There is a long explanation on why this is ok in the marginalized groups to one another (repossession of the phrase) but not for another group to use. What amazes me the most is how people expect me to be colorblind. Um, no. I taught my black son how to interact with police officers for his own safety. Never thought about doing that with his white older brother.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 13, 2019 23:22:17 GMT -5
Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it. Yes, and I will call myself queer but theres only 1 or 2 ways straight friends and family could call me queers that would be appropriate. I wasn't poking a jab at you being bad company- I meant the company of a group of your neighbors where I imagine the gay couple is about as diverse as it comes. I live in that kind of neighborhood too. Most of my neighbors don't even think it's ok to drink. I do expect our outliers t(including myself) to present themselves in way to not shock the others. No! Just no! You don't get to describe yourself to me as queer and then get offended when I describe you as queer. That is a set up pure and simple.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 13, 2019 23:28:50 GMT -5
So when your husband was alive we should have been referring to you as the "wife" and him as the "husband" so people would know who we were referring to? Does that really seem normal? Putting it in quotes seems reasonable, since the word is being used in a way that is different than people would expect. If I was talking about someone who was in a long term relationship but not technically married, but they referred to their spouse as "husband", I'd probably put it in quotes too. It's not really a husband, but it's how they are referring to him. Just like this isn't really a "wife" but it's how they are referring to him. If I'm going to use what I think is the person's preferred description I wouldn't put it in quotes. That's pointing a big red arrow at it saying "but not really". Which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using their preferred term in the first place.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 14, 2019 0:04:37 GMT -5
Yup, another “offended” party heard from. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, have at it.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 14, 2019 0:09:02 GMT -5
Yup, another “offended” party heard from. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. Oh shut up. I did not say I was offended, I said what I would do in that situation. Stop being such a witch when you are disagreed with. Now excuse me while I go back to ignoring you.
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oped
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Post by oped on Dec 14, 2019 3:51:31 GMT -5
2 of my kids are black. Its hysterical how many people tiptoe around this. Or who look at me horrified when I mention it. Like, really? I know I have black, brown and white kids.......Give us a break! Invariably these people seem to be the same ones who won’t acknowledge systemic racism, and if you try to talk to them about it will become defensive and say that because they ‘don’t see color’ there is no systemic racism...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 14, 2019 6:19:32 GMT -5
Yup, another “offended” party heard from. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, have at it. Oh shut up. I did not say I was offended, I said what I would do in that situation. Stop being such a witch when you are disagreed with. Now excuse me while I go back to ignoring you. Good. I Wish your cronies would as well.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 14, 2019 9:39:02 GMT -5
It depends. My black kids use the 'n' word at each other. My gay kid uses similar slurs with his friends. But it would be inappropriate for the rest of us to use them. There is a long explanation on why this is ok in the marginalized groups to one another (repossession of the phrase) but not for another group to use. What amazes me the most is how people expect me to be colorblind. Um, no. I taught my black son how to interact with police officers for his own safety. Never thought about doing that with his white older brother. The fact that we should have to teach a child how to act in the presence of a police officer for their safety, especially because of the color of their skin is exactly what is wrong with the world today. I'm glad you posted this though. I don't know if my sister has had this discussion with my nephew.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Dec 14, 2019 13:17:03 GMT -5
Have it now! Its about how to act in a none threatening manner. And what simple gestures set an officer's internal alarm off. I live in a small town so I was able to go to a state sheriff office, ask questions and get thier input. They were very helpful. And somewhat embarrassed that we felt the need to teach him those skills. But admitted it was needed.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Dec 14, 2019 15:12:11 GMT -5
Have it now! Its about how to act in a none threatening manner. And what simple gestures set an officer's internal alarm off. I live in a small town so I was able to go to a state sheriff office, ask questions and get thier input. They were very helpful. And somewhat embarrassed that we felt the need to teach him those skills. But admitted it was needed. I'm sorry; I don't know your back story in reference to your family, but thank you for being an amazing and responsible mom.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 14, 2019 15:53:19 GMT -5
2 of my kids are black. Its hysterical how many people tiptoe around this. Or who look at me horrified when I mention it. Like, really? I know I have black, brown and white kids.......Give us a break! Invariably these people seem to be the same ones who won’t acknowledge systemic racism, and if you try to talk to them about it will become defensive and say that because they ‘don’t see color’ there is no systemic racism... If they don't see colour, how do they dress themselves?
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Dec 14, 2019 17:07:53 GMT -5
Have it now! Its about how to act in a none threatening manner. And what simple gestures set an officer's internal alarm off. I live in a small town so I was able to go to a state sheriff office, ask questions and get thier input. They were very helpful. And somewhat embarrassed that we felt the need to teach him those skills. But admitted it was needed. I wish this wasn't necessary, but sadly it is
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 17, 2019 13:18:33 GMT -5
Putting it in quotes seems reasonable, since the word is being used in a way that is different than people would expect. If I was talking about someone who was in a long term relationship but not technically married, but they referred to their spouse as "husband", I'd probably put it in quotes too. It's not really a husband, but it's how they are referring to him. Just like this isn't really a "wife" but it's how they are referring to him. If I'm going to use what I think is the person's preferred description I wouldn't put it in quotes. That's pointing a big red arrow at it saying "but not really". Which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using their preferred term in the first place. I agree it means "but not really" and in this case, that absolutely applies. Wife has a defined meaning...wife applies to a woman...and it doesn't sound like he actually identifies as a woman, but as a man who just might prefer being called "wife". Whereas if this person identified as a woman, you could just say she. It's the difference between saying "I identify as this" and "I'm using a word in a different way than what it actually means". No different than if I said "I consider my friends to really be my family...I was talking to my "brother" the other day and...". It's not ACTUALLY my brother, we might identify each other that way, but we're using a word in a way other than it's definition. That's very different than using she to refer to someone who identifies as a woman (assuming you believe gender is different from biological sex). They are a she. If this person identifies as a man, they will never be an actual wife. If I use the word wife, everyone should have a general understanding I'm referring to a woman, because that's the actual definition...if I'm using that word other than that way...quotation marks are a good way to denote exactly as you point out "but not really". It also provides a little more clarity than saying "My next door neighbor is gay, and his wife did this". Anyone reading that who understands English SHOULD presume this gay male is married to a woman, because it is inherent in the definition of words. Adding "" to mean "but not really" is a common shortcut to mean "not really his wife". ETA: I think it would be better if people just said what they thought. It's pretty clear. People think zib used "wife" on her own, and then when caught backtracked to saying "that's how they refer to themselves". Can't we just say "I don't believe you" rather than this charade of people either pretending that they know the dynamics of this marriage and whether those people are joking or not, or whether an attempt to clarify how they're using a word with quotation marks is ok or not. If we don't believe someone, just say you don't believe them, instead of trying to craft these crazy mind-reading explanations for why someone is wrong. Nobody gets THIS bent out of shape if they think someone used the appropriate word, but put it in quotation marks to signal it was a modified use of the word when it absolutely is a modified use of the word (I'm not saying laterbloomer is bent out of shape, just the post I'm quoting to respond, but I do think people are bent out of shape about it...and it's pretty clearly because they think zib is lying about it but won't say so). "I don't believe you" is a lot more effective than "I speak for them because we share a minor characteristic about ourselves".
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 17, 2019 15:03:45 GMT -5
If I'm going to use what I think is the person's preferred description I wouldn't put it in quotes. That's pointing a big red arrow at it saying "but not really". Which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using their preferred term in the first place. No different than if I said "I consider my friends to really be my family...I was talking to my "brother" the other day and...". It's not ACTUALLY my brother, we might identify each other that way, but we're using a word in a way other than it's definition. In that case I'd just say my friend. It doesn't make sense to me to use the term brother, but then make a point of indicating he's not my brother. But that's me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 17, 2019 15:45:28 GMT -5
No different than if I said "I consider my friends to really be my family...I was talking to my "brother" the other day and...". It's not ACTUALLY my brother, we might identify each other that way, but we're using a word in a way other than it's definition. In that case I'd just say my friend. It doesn't make sense to me to use the term brother, but then make a point of indicating he's not my brother. But that's me. And if a homosexual male was referring to his marriage partner, I'd probably just say husband myself...but I'd also probably get yelled at because the person identifies as a male and a wife which isn't objectively possible given the definitions of words. You're pretty much open to getting bitched out regardless of whether you use the proper term or the term people prefer. Someone somewhere is going to have a problem with it. I would think the least-problematic way to deal with it is just to call someone what they want to be called if you know. They might be stupid or objectively wrong, but you can still be kind to stupid people. The MOST-problematic theory would seem to be to be "they want to be called this thing, but I've decided in my infinite wisdom that they actually mean the opposite of that so I'll call them something totally different than what they've indicated they want to be called" which is what some mind-readers here are claiming. It's one thing for people to be offended that you're calling someone by their preference because they think it's absurd (like many people seem to have an issue calling people by their non-biological sex pronouns) which is bad enough, but it's another thing entirely to be offended on behalf of someone you don't know because someone IS calling them their preferred name. I also think it's very different if you were writing to this person in an email and using "wife" in quotes to discuss his partner in a passive-aggressive way...it's another to try to use it in describing the person to other people who have no idea you're not referring to the actual definition of the word wife and using it in a completely different context. You COULD always substitute "wife" with...his homosexual male partner who identifies as a male but prefers to be called wife even though wife is defined as being a female...but "wife" seems fine in that instance if you're not expecting people to be stalking the internet looking for ways they can pretend to be offended by something they don't even understand. Maybe that's the issue though, we should all assume that everything we could possibly say will be offensive to someone and just stop caring who is offended.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Dec 17, 2019 15:56:23 GMT -5
In that case I'd just say my friend. It doesn't make sense to me to use the term brother, but then make a point of indicating he's not my brother. But that's me. And if a homosexual male was referring to his marriage partner, I'd probably just say husband myself...but I'd also probably get yelled at because the person identifies as a male and a wife which isn't objectively possible given the definitions of words. You're pretty much open to getting bitched out regardless of whether you use the proper term or the term people prefer. Someone somewhere is going to have a problem with it. I would think the least-problematic way to deal with it is just to call someone what they want to be called if you know. They might be stupid or objectively wrong, but you can still be kind to stupid people. The MOST-problematic theory would seem to be to be "they want to be called this thing, but I've decided in my infinite wisdom that they actually mean the opposite of that so I'll call them something totally different than what they've indicated they want to be called" which is what some mind-readers here are claiming. It's one thing for people to be offended that you're calling someone by their preference because they think it's absurd (like many people seem to have an issue calling people by their non-biological sex pronouns) which is bad enough, but it's another thing entirely to be offended on behalf of someone you don't know because someone IS calling them their preferred name. I also think it's very different if you were writing to this person in an email and using "wife" in quotes to discuss his partner in a passive-aggressive way...it's another to try to use it in describing the person to other people who have no idea you're not referring to the actual definition of the word wife and using it in a completely different context. You COULD always substitute "wife" with...his homosexual male partner who identifies as a male but prefers to be called wife even though wife is defined as being a female...but "wife" seems fine in that instance if you're not expecting people to be stalking the internet looking for ways they can pretend to be offended by something they don't even understand. Maybe that's the issue though, we should all assume that everything we could possibly say will be offensive to someone and just stop caring who is offended. Slow day at the office?
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 18, 2019 14:25:35 GMT -5
Okay, folks. This thread is interesting in that it's discussing one of today's "angsts du jour". People disagree about the polite use of personal pronouns. That's a given, as some will hold to the traditional while others will tend toward the newer connotation of a given pronoun. Let's see if we can't avoid getting into board arguments, dismissals, and other silencing attempts and just discuss this conundrum in a civil way. I don't want to have to lock the thread because we've got a playground battle going on. Thanks, to all.
mmhmm, Administrator
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 18, 2019 20:02:59 GMT -5
Yup, I’m not playing anymore. People just look to stir the pot. It’s a bore.
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