hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 10:51:26 GMT -5
Why not just call them husband and wife was what chiver was pointing out. Why "husband" and "wife". well, no. I think it is incredibly offensive to call one member of a same sex male couple "wife". he is a husband. but I also dont misgender trans folks, so I must be a snowflake that gets offended by everything. 🤷♀️ Is it more offensive to call a gay male "wife" if that's how he and his partner refer to him (I'm assuming "him" in this case, but for all we know they both appear male but one identifies as something other than male)? Or is it more offensive to call him "husband" when he doesn't want to be called that (potentially doesn't want to be called that at least)? Isn't it the safest and least offensive thing you can do today to just call someone the name/pronoun/identification they use for themselves rather than deciding someone else should be offended by the very word they've chosen to describe themselves?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 10:54:58 GMT -5
Well, that’s what they call each other so what do I know or care? The quotes were so you’d know which one I was referring to. Good grief, way to focus on the non point. So when your husband was alive we should have been referring to you as the "wife" and him as the "husband" so people would know who we were referring to? Does that really seem normal? Putting it in quotes seems reasonable, since the word is being used in a way that is different than people would expect. If I was talking about someone who was in a long term relationship but not technically married, but they referred to their spouse as "husband", I'd probably put it in quotes too. It's not really a husband, but it's how they are referring to him. Just like this isn't really a "wife" but it's how they are referring to him.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 10, 2019 11:00:24 GMT -5
Why not just call them husband and wife was what chiver was pointing out. Why "husband" and "wife". well, no. I think it is incredibly offensive to call one member of a same sex male couple "wife". he is a husband. but I also dont misgender trans folks, so I must be a snowflake that gets offended by everything. 🤷♀️ I see what you're saying. I used to be bothered by referring to a males as she or her. The majority of the gay men I know however do refer to each other that way. I don't, but it doesn't bother me really anymore.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 10, 2019 11:02:58 GMT -5
well, no. I think it is incredibly offensive to call one member of a same sex male couple "wife". he is a husband. but I also dont misgender trans folks, so I must be a snowflake that gets offended by everything. 🤷♀️ Is it more offensive to call a gay male "wife" if that's how he and his partner refer to him (I'm assuming "him" in this case, but for all we know they both appear male but one identifies as something other than male)? Or is it more offensive to call him "husband" when he doesn't want to be called that (potentially doesn't want to be called that at least)? Isn't it the safest and least offensive thing you can do today to just call someone the name/pronoun/identification they use for themselves rather than deciding someone else should be offended by the very word they've chosen to describe themselves? she's not calling him anything, she is referring to him in an anecdote about a male same-sex couple in a forum that doesn't know him from a hole in the wall. I can see that you and I aren't likely to see eye-to-eye on this, so I'll just stop there.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 10, 2019 11:04:35 GMT -5
So when your husband was alive we should have been referring to you as the "wife" and him as the "husband" so people would know who we were referring to? Does that really seem normal? Putting it in quotes seems reasonable, since the word is being used in a way that is different than people would expect. If I was talking about someone who was in a long term relationship but not technically married, but they referred to their spouse as "husband", I'd probably put it in quotes too. It's not really a husband, but it's how they are referring to him. Just like this isn't really a "wife" but it's how they are referring to him. Why not just call them a partner or husband or wife and call it a day? I hate when people think they need to explain a situation. I had a BF that I was in a long term relationship with and he would always refer to me as his "common law wife". Um, no. We're not married and we're never getting married. I let him know that from the jump. Refer to me as your GF, partner, your girl, whatever. Not "common law wife". Or, you could even just refer to me as andi.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 11:11:16 GMT -5
Is it more offensive to call a gay male "wife" if that's how he and his partner refer to him (I'm assuming "him" in this case, but for all we know they both appear male but one identifies as something other than male)? Or is it more offensive to call him "husband" when he doesn't want to be called that (potentially doesn't want to be called that at least)? Isn't it the safest and least offensive thing you can do today to just call someone the name/pronoun/identification they use for themselves rather than deciding someone else should be offended by the very word they've chosen to describe themselves? she's not calling him anything, she is referring to him in an anecdote about a male same-sex couple in a forum that doesn't know him from a hole in the wall. I can see that you and I aren't likely to see eye-to-eye on this, so I'll just stop there. So she should refer to him as "wife" to his face (assuming she ever had a reason to refer to him as either husband or wife in person) and "husband" when talking about him in other instances? I'm unsure a bit what your position is. Or are you saying she should call him "husband" in all cases because we presume he's a male and by definition that makes him husband? I'm less clear because you talk about "I don't mis-gender trans folks" which could either be taken to mean you refer them as their biological/born sex, or you refer to them as their preferred pronoun (I think it's the latter, but given your offense at referring to someone as "wife" who identifies as a wife presumably, I'm not totally sure). OR, I'll throw this out there, because this would also explain some things...you think she referred to him as "wife" in an offensive way and is now backtracking trying to justify it by dishonestly saying that's how they refer to him themselves. My position is really "Just refer to people however the hell they want to be referred to, because who cares, it's up to them". I totally understand a lot of people won't see eye-to-eye with that.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 11:20:54 GMT -5
Putting it in quotes seems reasonable, since the word is being used in a way that is different than people would expect. If I was talking about someone who was in a long term relationship but not technically married, but they referred to their spouse as "husband", I'd probably put it in quotes too. It's not really a husband, but it's how they are referring to him. Just like this isn't really a "wife" but it's how they are referring to him. Why not just call them a partner or husband or wife and call it a day? I hate when people think they need to explain a situation. I had a BF that I was in a long term relationship with and he would always refer to me as his "common law wife". Um, no. We're not married and we're never getting married. I let him know that from the jump. Refer to me as your GF, partner, your girl, whatever. Not "common law wife". Or, you could even just refer to me as andi. I would just call someone by their accurate description personally if I'm choosing how to refer to someone in relation to me. But I do think quotes are fine if you're going to use words in ways other than their traditional meaning...it typically signifies in writing that you're using a word in a non-traditional way. The question of why people choose to use those words non-traditionally is something else entirely IMO.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 10, 2019 11:38:54 GMT -5
Just because they use that term between themselves (jokingly I'm guessing, especially considering the company) doesn't mean straight people should. I refer to myself as queer, but I wouldn't be okay with my mom or her friends describing me with that term. Same word but has different meanings for different people.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 16:18:56 GMT -5
So when your husband was alive we should have been referring to you as the "wife" and him as the "husband" so people would know who we were referring to? Does that really seem normal? That's not really the same though. She wasn't talking TO them, she was talking to us about them. If you were telling us about something your neighbors did, it would be perfectly normal to refer to "the husband" and "the wife". If Zib had said "the husband" to describe both in her story it would have been quite confusing. I guess to be PC should could have said, "Husband 1" and "Husband 2", but if they call themselves husband and wife, maybe that's what they prefer?
It must be because he referred to his wife being in Hawaii and he wasn’t talking about anyone else but his partner.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 16:26:45 GMT -5
That's not really the same though. She wasn't talking TO them, she was talking to us about them. If you were telling us about something your neighbors did, it would be perfectly normal to refer to "the husband" and "the wife". If Zib had said "the husband" to describe both in her story it would have been quite confusing. I guess to be PC should could have said, "Husband 1" and "Husband 2", but if they call themselves husband and wife, maybe that's what they prefer?
It must be because he referred to his wife being in Hawaii and he wasn’t talking about anyone else but his partner. Normal changes all the time. They don’t call each other partner so I’ve offended them, which is more important to me than offending you. They also don’t call each other husband. Not my circus. The story was about surrogates not labels. But feel free to trash me and miss the funny story about how we all just about fainted at the idea of impregnating his own sisters eggs.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 16:29:09 GMT -5
Posters wondered why I took a long break from this forum. Sheesh.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 16:30:47 GMT -5
Just because they use that term between themselves (jokingly I'm guessing, especially considering the company) doesn't mean straight people should. I refer to myself as queer, but I wouldn't be okay with my mom or her friends describing me with that term. Same word but has different meanings for different people. Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 16:51:52 GMT -5
Just because they use that term between themselves (jokingly I'm guessing, especially considering the company) doesn't mean straight people should. I refer to myself as queer, but I wouldn't be okay with my mom or her friends describing me with that term. Same word but has different meanings for different people. Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it. When it comes to people using all kinds of pronouns or other words to describe themselves these days...the last thing I want to do is figure out who is joking and who is serious about what they want to be called. I say you get a presumption of serious until you correct me. I'm not a mind-reader. I'm perfectly happy calling people whatever they prefer to be called, even if it goes past the "normal" stuff (man woman etc) into some more unique stuff...but you can't appear to be a man, tell me you're a woman, then be mad when I presume you are serious and also call you a woman. At that point we're talking about just making up reasons to get offended if the reason you're offended is because someone did precisely what you indicated they should be doing, but you had your mental fingers crossed when you said it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 17:05:18 GMT -5
Thank you. Some people just want to bitch because they’re miserable unhappy people looking for a reason to crap on someone else. It’s very apparent to anyone looking at them. Thank god I don’t have to deal with them IRL.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 10, 2019 17:10:48 GMT -5
Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it. When it comes to people using all kinds of pronouns or other words to describe themselves these days...the last thing I want to do is figure out who is joking and who is serious about what they want to be called. I say you get a presumption of serious until you correct me. I'm not a mind-reader. I'm perfectly happy calling people whatever they prefer to be called, even if it goes past the "normal" stuff (man woman etc) into some more unique stuff...but you can't appear to be a man, tell me you're a woman, then be mad when I presume you are serious and also call you a woman. At that point we're talking about just making up reasons to get offended if the reason you're offended is because someone did precisely what you indicated they should be doing, but you had your mental fingers crossed when you said it. I don't read it this way. If I refer to dh as my boo, or babe, or lover, outside of a bar who else would refer to him with that term? No one. That isn't him saying I identify as rae's boo bear from now on. It's me making a joke or a term on endearment between us. Just like the gay neighbors saying, I better check in with the little wife. Terms that have a derogatory inference will be reclaimed. That doesn't mean the inference should be ignored or that it never mattered or that the term should be used by everyone. I think it's ridiculous to get offended that someone dared say - hey, that term is problematic and probably not how your gay friends want their straight neighbors talking about them. Everyone has said something offensive at some point. If you don't actually mean offense you should be ok hearing if it happens and changing if necessary.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 10, 2019 17:19:05 GMT -5
Just because they use that term between themselves (jokingly I'm guessing, especially considering the company) doesn't mean straight people should. I refer to myself as queer, but I wouldn't be okay with my mom or her friends describing me with that term. Same word but has different meanings for different people. Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it. Yes, and I will call myself queer but theres only 1 or 2 ways straight friends and family could call me queers that would be appropriate. I wasn't poking a jab at you being bad company- I meant the company of a group of your neighbors where I imagine the gay couple is about as diverse as it comes. I live in that kind of neighborhood too. Most of my neighbors don't even think it's ok to drink. I do expect our outliers t(including myself) to present themselves in way to not shock the others.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 17:28:26 GMT -5
When it comes to people using all kinds of pronouns or other words to describe themselves these days...the last thing I want to do is figure out who is joking and who is serious about what they want to be called. I say you get a presumption of serious until you correct me. I'm not a mind-reader. I'm perfectly happy calling people whatever they prefer to be called, even if it goes past the "normal" stuff (man woman etc) into some more unique stuff...but you can't appear to be a man, tell me you're a woman, then be mad when I presume you are serious and also call you a woman. At that point we're talking about just making up reasons to get offended if the reason you're offended is because someone did precisely what you indicated they should be doing, but you had your mental fingers crossed when you said it. I don't read it this way. If I refer to dh as my boo, or babe, or lover, outside of a bar who else would refer to him with that term? No one. That isn't him saying I identify as rae's boo bear from now on. It's me making a joke or a term on endearment between us. Just like the gay neighbors saying, I better check in with the little wife. Terms that have a derogatory inference will be reclaimed. That doesn't mean the inference should be ignored or that it never mattered or that the term should be used by everyone. I think it's ridiculous to get offended that someone dared say - hey, that term is problematic and probably not how your gay friends want their straight neighbors talking about them. Everyone has said something offensive at some point. If you don't actually mean offense you should be ok hearing if it happens and changing if necessary. None of those are gender-defined names though. Wife is. And it's fine if they come back and say "that was just our little joke, he's my husband, we prefer that term even though we were jokingly saying wife". What's not fine is someone else being offended on their behalf who has no earthly idea if it was a joke or serious, and looking so hard to be offended that they've made up in their own mind that the people they don't know and have never met are being offended. I totally agree that if you don't intend to be offensive, you should be fine hearing that someone found you offensive and changing. That's a FAR cry from someone else jumping in and telling you that you were offensive toward someone else because they are projecting their own values onto someone else, and deciding for other people when they are offended. What offends one individual member of an enormous and varied group is not going to offend many other members of the same group. Someone pretending they know and/or speak for that group in order to tell people they are offending someone else who has shown no indication of actually being offended is a problem.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 17:32:36 GMT -5
Maybe they were joking but they or at least one of them still uses it. Yes, and I will call myself queer but theres only 1 or 2 ways straight friends and family could call me queers that would be appropriate. I wasn't poking a jab at you being bad company- I meant the company of a group of your neighbors where I imagine the gay couple is about as diverse as it comes. I live in that kind of neighborhood too. Most of my neighbors don't even think it's ok to drink. I do expect our outliers t(including myself) to present themselves in way to not shock the others. That's you speaking for you though, which is fine. That's different than if someone else referred to you as queer and someone said "raeoflyte would be offended by that" even though I don't know her...but let me tell you how queer people think and what they want to be called. It presumes that there is something that can be defined as "how queer people think" which is problematic. Let's let individuals be individuals.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 10, 2019 18:17:12 GMT -5
I don't read it this way. If I refer to dh as my boo, or babe, or lover, outside of a bar who else would refer to him with that term? No one. That isn't him saying I identify as rae's boo bear from now on. It's me making a joke or a term on endearment between us. Just like the gay neighbors saying, I better check in with the little wife. Terms that have a derogatory inference will be reclaimed. That doesn't mean the inference should be ignored or that it never mattered or that the term should be used by everyone. I think it's ridiculous to get offended that someone dared say - hey, that term is problematic and probably not how your gay friends want their straight neighbors talking about them. Everyone has said something offensive at some point. If you don't actually mean offense you should be ok hearing if it happens and changing if necessary. None of those are gender-defined names though. Wife is. And it's fine if they come back and say "that was just our little joke, he's my husband, we prefer that term even though we were jokingly saying wife". What's not fine is someone else being offended on their behalf who has no earthly idea if it was a joke or serious, and looking so hard to be offended that they've made up in their own mind that the people they don't know and have never met are being offended. I totally agree that if you don't intend to be offensive, you should be fine hearing that someone found you offensive and changing. That's a FAR cry from someone else jumping in and telling you that you were offensive toward someone else because they are projecting their own values onto someone else, and deciding for other people when they are offended. What offends one individual member of an enormous and varied group is not going to offend many other members of the same group. Someone pretending they know and/or speak for that group in order to tell people they are offending someone else who has shown no indication of actually being offended is a problem. Assuming that gay and lesbian relationships are playing at straight ones is a common joke that isn't meant to be kind, funny or inclusive.7 It's stupid, but I also think is culturally common enough to not be a surprise that people raise their eye brows at its use from straight people. Disagreement isn't offense. Outside of the distraction factor I have no emotional investment in this thread. I choose to listen to other perspectives and view points than my own. I don't discount a person of color story because it contradicts my experience. Ask a manager ran a piece on Christmas trees in shared spaces asking if it's religious or secular in nature. As an atheist with a Christmas tree I'd have voted it's pretty secular at this point. But I really appreciated the response that it's only because I've adopted the dominant religions tradition that I get the privilege of seeing it as secular.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 10, 2019 19:11:43 GMT -5
I didn't miss the story. I chose to call you out on your poor choice of words.
maybe it's because of where I live, and other things in my life like work and hobbies, but I have spent enough time around same-sex couples to have figured out the nuance that rae has explained so well - what might be a joke between the couple isn't appropriate for others that aren't so close. it's beyond tacky, and on par IMHO with a white person referring to a black person as an N-word after hearing the black person refer to themselves that way with friends. you just don't do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 19:55:25 GMT -5
This has become the YM holiday family feud.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 20:50:14 GMT -5
I didn't miss the story. I chose to call you out on your poor choice of words. maybe it's because of where I live, and other things in my life like work and hobbies, but I have spent enough time around same-sex couples to have figured out the nuance that rae has explained so well - what might be a joke between the couple isn't appropriate for others that aren't so close. it's beyond tacky, and on par IMHO with a white person referring to a black person as an N-word after hearing the black person refer to themselves that way with friends. you just don't do it. you're comparing the word "wife" to the word "n*****". Seems totally reasonable! lol And you've also decided that this is a joke between the couple, even though you don't know the couple.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 20:57:22 GMT -5
None of those are gender-defined names though. Wife is. And it's fine if they come back and say "that was just our little joke, he's my husband, we prefer that term even though we were jokingly saying wife". What's not fine is someone else being offended on their behalf who has no earthly idea if it was a joke or serious, and looking so hard to be offended that they've made up in their own mind that the people they don't know and have never met are being offended. I totally agree that if you don't intend to be offensive, you should be fine hearing that someone found you offensive and changing. That's a FAR cry from someone else jumping in and telling you that you were offensive toward someone else because they are projecting their own values onto someone else, and deciding for other people when they are offended. What offends one individual member of an enormous and varied group is not going to offend many other members of the same group. Someone pretending they know and/or speak for that group in order to tell people they are offending someone else who has shown no indication of actually being offended is a problem. Assuming that gay and lesbian relationships are playing at straight ones is a common joke that isn't meant to be kind, funny or inclusive.7 It's stupid, but I also think is culturally common enough to not be a surprise that people raise their eye brows at its use from straight people. Disagreement isn't offense. Outside of the distraction factor I have no emotional investment in this thread. I choose to listen to other perspectives and view points than my own. I don't discount a person of color story because it contradicts my experience. Ask a manager ran a piece on Christmas trees in shared spaces asking if it's religious or secular in nature. As an atheist with a Christmas tree I'd have voted it's pretty secular at this point. But I really appreciated the response that it's only because I've adopted the dominant religions tradition that I get the privilege of seeing it as secular. Problem is, you're not telling a story about anything real. You're making up a story about people you don't know, that another poster does, and then arguing based on the premise that your fictional story is fact because you're acting as if all same-sex couples are the same and that YOU speak for them. This isn't a high-level discussion of words, this is a discussion about a specific interaction with real people, and you've decided that since they're same-sex you get to decide what they mean rather than the person who was there talking to them and who knows them. The entire basis for your argument is "they're a same sex couple, so I've decided that they didn't mean the thing they said...what they really mean is what I say they mean". I haven't seen anyone say you don't have the right to feel the way you feel about the word "queer". The problem is you're deciding how other people feel without anything other than your projected feelings of the situation onto them.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 10, 2019 21:00:40 GMT -5
I didn't miss the story. I chose to call you out on your poor choice of words. maybe it's because of where I live, and other things in my life like work and hobbies, but I have spent enough time around same-sex couples to have figured out the nuance that rae has explained so well - what might be a joke between the couple isn't appropriate for others that aren't so close. it's beyond tacky, and on par IMHO with a white person referring to a black person as an N-word after hearing the black person refer to themselves that way with friends. you just don't do it. you're comparing the word "wife" to the word "n*****". Seems totally reasonable! lol And you've also decided that this is a joke between the couple, even though you don't know the couple. I haven't decided shit about this couple and what they call each other. you're being deliberately obtuse and I don't care to entertain it anymore. have a nice night.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 21:08:02 GMT -5
you're comparing the word "wife" to the word "n*****". Seems totally reasonable! lol And you've also decided that this is a joke between the couple, even though you don't know the couple. I haven't decided shit about this couple and what they call each other. you're being deliberately obtuse and I don't care to entertain it anymore. have a nice night. You shouldn't call anyone obtuse when you just got done telling us that you consider the word "wife" to be the equivalent of calling a black person a n*****. That's so racist and disgusting I honestly don't know how to respond to something so racistly absurd.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Dec 10, 2019 22:40:06 GMT -5
This has become the YM holiday family feud. And now I'm so confused I don't know what to call anyone.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 10, 2019 22:54:48 GMT -5
This has become the YM holiday family feud. And now I'm so confused I don't know what to call anyone. No biggie, it’s the usual people causing the usual problems. Consider the source. I do. Anyway for those not looking for a problem when there isn’t one, it was a very funny story in the end.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 10, 2019 23:12:56 GMT -5
This has become the YM holiday family feud. And now I'm so confused I don't know what to call anyone. Just don't say "w***", it's horribly offensive, on part with "n*****".
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Dec 11, 2019 11:26:07 GMT -5
And now I'm so confused I don't know what to call anyone.
Ask
Had a good friend many years ago that happened to be a black lady. During the time of everyone being politically correct I asked her what she wanted to be referred to ......... She said 'Birdie' ........ Her name was Luberta.
Fine by me and everyone else ........
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 12:54:49 GMT -5
Sometimes I think people take the PC thing a little too far. A while back one of my coworkers couldn't recall the name of an engineer that was looking for me. She went on and on trying to describe him by hair color and the way he talked and what not. Finally it dawned on me. I ask her, "Do you mean "K", the guy in a wheelchair"? THE ONLY FREAKING GUY IN A WHEELCHAIR AMONG THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES?!?! She was so worried about even bringing up the fact that he was handicapped.
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