What to look for in a general contractor/homebuilder?

[hoops902]

I'm putting this in YM because I think a number of answers will be money-related, and I'm asking the question primarily to protect the finances of the project (but feel free to move to Off-Topic if it doesn't feel enough about money).

In another thread I mentioned we're likely going to undertake a build/very large remodel.  Essentially, we are going to tear the first floor off of my mom's house, and rebuild it up from the existing foundation.  The foundation is likely staying, the oversized 4 car attached garage is staying, the entryway from the garage to the house is staying.  So basically we're going to build a new house where the garage is already standing, and the foundation and basement framing is already complete.  Everything beyond that is new.

I'm meeting with some contractors over the next month or so just to get general ideas on feasibility and cost (there is a rather large outbuilding on the property that may block some of the prime land for driving a truck across, a tight driveway turn, etc).  I've got a lot of the logistical questions already laid out.

Historically, I've spearheaded most projects I've undertaken, even the large ones like this.  With 2 young kids, that's not realistic this time.  I've worked with subs before, but it's always been within the context of me acting as the GC.  I'm much more comfortable managing the guy doing the work than I am managing the guy who manages the guy doing the work (being a step removed means less control).  

Those of you who have hired a GC before, what things should I be looking for beyond the "obvious" (licensed, insured, etc are all things I understand).  Most actual new-home builders in the area won't take the project, they're used to building from pre-specified plans on blank lots (I was actually kind of impressed at the honesty of some of them that I contacted with respect to the idea that their employees wouldn't know what to do if it wasn't an assembly line situation).  I'm bringing in some folks who do more renovation/addition than new construction, but certainly have SOME construction experience.

I'm planning on going to look at some of their work that more closely reflects what we're doing.

On to the questions:

-What do you focus on when talking to them?  Historically I've worried a LOT about technical expertise, because I'm employing the people doing the actual work.  Do you focus on technical expertise?  Communication?  Organization?  People skills?

-Logical payment schedule?  Again, typically I hire out small projects where they do the work and get billed after.  I've seen all the payment schedule suggestions online, but curious to hear any real-life advice from things that did/didn't work out.  The more detailed the better if you have suggestions, I already understand the idea that I need to hold back something significant enough to motivate them to complete the work, but if there are specific %s you would recommend let's hear them.  I'm not opposed to paying out a little extra up-front as these are not massive home-building companies, but more mid-sized folks.  For example, 4 payments of 25% payable when 1.  Demo is complete (there's a decent amount of demo to do here).  2.  Rough framing is complete.  3.  House is dried in (siding, roofing, windows, doors).  4.  Completion.  That's just a sample (and I'm probably overpaying in this example by draw #3, I'd probably need another after #3 for drywall and kitchen cabinets in or something to smooth out payment with work being done).

-Should I care THAT much whether someone employs the people doing the work?  Or subs it out to others?  (other than making sure the subs get paid so it doesn't get liened)  For anyone who subs out, I'm going to ask who they typically work with to research them a bit or more likely because I already have an opinion of them from previous projects.

-Anything else I should consider or ask (I've got a lengthy list already, but if there's something you think is important that isn't standard, I'd love to hear it).

[OldCoyote]

First problem is finding a good honest General Contractor.

Word of mouth, talk to people that have used them before,, Check out the Register of Contractors.

Pay attention to that "GUT" feeling!

Go thru the contract with a fine tooth comb.  make sure what is being done, what is not!

The contract should have all that laid out.

[busymom]

Also, check the internet for contractor reviews.  If someone had a bad experience, most likely they'll tell all about it.  


Of course, make sure they're licensed.  And, ask to see some projects they've done in the past.



You know this, but NEVER, ever, pay in full in advance.  

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 9:37:43 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

First problem is finding a good honest General Contractor.

Word of mouth, talk to people that have used them before,, Check out the Register of Contractors.

Pay attention to that "GUT" feeling!

Go thru the contract with a fine tooth comb.  make sure what is being done, what is not!

The contract should have all that laid out.

This is probably the part I have the least worry about.  I've done a lot of contract negotiation/document review for my real-life job, and I'm a nitpicky thorn in most people's sides I'm sure.  It also helps/hurts in that I've done a significant portion of work myself historically.  So it can't just say you're installing 1/2 OSB as the subfloor, you better indicate that you're not nailing it but instead gluing and screwing it down.  I'm trying to delay the "this guy is a micromanaging a-hole" stuff until after we've found someone though  I'm probably a lot pickier with the "how" of things than most homeowners are, and I'm a glutton for turning a 5 page document into a 20-pager in order to get it all documented.

If anything, I probably need to be a bit less picky once the work actually occurs.  I have a "tendency" to become very displeased when things aren't done the way I wanted them done and specified them to be done...even if the way they actually did it is perfectly acceptable.  

[sheilaincali]

Reviews, Reviews, Reviews.  Read the reviews.  Ask for a list of previous customers that you can contact directly for a review.

Find out in advance who they plan on purchasing their materials from. Call the suppliers to ensure that they are in good standing with them.

Get a certificate for insurance from them. Verify that it's valid.

Verify that their license is valid.

Always keep a minimum of 10% for retainage until all punch list items are completed.  

I'd consider having an attorney take a look at the contract.  When we built a house we didn't realize how many things were left off the contract that we assumed were standard. ie- installing the door knobs after the doors were hung, putting a hanging rod in the closets, etc.  There's a lot of nitpicky stuff that some contractors will try to tack on via a change order or extra fee at the end of the job when you are just desperate for it to be done.

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 9:55:27 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Reviews, Reviews, Reviews.  Read the reviews.  Ask for a list of previous customers that you can contact directly for a review.

Find out in advance who they plan on purchasing their materials from. Call the suppliers to ensure that they are in good standing with them. (excellent advice, I had planned to ask where they primarily source things from, mostly because I have some contacts for getting good prices on specific things, but hadn't thought about calling to find out if they are in good standing with those suppliers.  My brother works at a home improvement warehouse in building materials, so I've been sending him names of potential folks as a pre-scan just to find out if they have a terrible reputation with anyone there)

Get a certificate for insurance from them. Verify that it's valid.

Verify that their license is valid.

Always keep a minimum of 10% for retainage until all punch list items are completed.  

I'd consider having an attorney take a look at the contract.  When we built a house we didn't realize how many things were left off the contract that we assumed were standard. ie- installing the door knobs after the doors were hung, putting a hanging rod in the closets, etc.  There's a lot of nitpicky stuff that some contractors will try to tack on via a change order or extra fee at the end of the job when you are just desperate for it to be done.  (Good point, I'll probably be so OCD about the construction stuff this kind of stuff could easily slip through the cracks of my examination.  On the bright side, I'd probably be happier if I got to do some of the small stuff like that anyways  lol)

[tskeeter]

Hoops, talk to the major subs. Who do they want to work with?  If the local subs recommend and like to work with a GC, it says a lot of things.  The GC is well organized, they pay the subs promptly (a really big deal so you don’t get stuck with liens on your property), and they treat the subs well.  If the GC plans, schedules, and organizes well, and pays on time, the subs will make your job a priority, moving the work along quickly, and the subs will be able to bid the job for less money because the GC does not cause the subs to waste time or to struggle to pay their bills because the GC is stringing them along.  If the GC is a bum, subs will only do work for them as a last resort.  The means problems scheduling subs, possible quality issues, etc.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Jul 30, 2019 9:41:29 GMT -5 busymom said:

Also, check the internet for contractor reviews.  If someone had a bad experience, most likely they'll tell all about it.  


Of course, make sure they're licensed.  And, ask to see some projects they've done in the past.



You know this, but NEVER, ever, pay in full in advance.  

Not only make sure they are licensed but look them up. In Florida, you can check licenses for any kind of entity that requires licenses. The website for this also indicates if an entity has any litigation.

I work in a building related industry and amongst ourselves, we know from internal reputation we know which builders in the area we would stay away from if we wanted to build a house. It wouldn't be a bad idea to do some research by talking to local framing companies, truss manufacturers, roofers, concrete companies, electricians, plumbers, etc. just to get an idea from them which builders do good work and which ones tend to cut corners.

[bookkeeper]

Will you be using a bank for a construction loan or mortgage upon completion?  Are there many new builds going on in your area? I would think mortgage bankers in your area would have a working relationship with several general contractors as well as developers.  Often times the owner's bank is the one to pay the general contractor's bills as the work progresses.

When working on a remodel at my home, I learned a lot about prospective contractors from both the cabinet and flooring sales people. They definitely had a list of who not to work with.

I think you have made a good decision to hire a general contractor for your project.  You will still have so much to do as the property owner.  My friend is a contractor with 4 or 5 employees.  He often times has people act as their own GC on a big project, hey everybody wants to save money.  He often has customers tell him they will never take on that role again.  A good general contractor will keep your project moving along with all the trades.  Think of the interest you would pay if a large building project was somehow strung out for another 8 to 10 months because of lack of materials or labor.

Do your research and good luck!

[Ryan]

We just went through a remodel and most new home builders didn't really specialize in additions, so those were ruled out.  We did get quotes for some big "full service" remodeling companies, but the prices were way oversized.

We went with a company that our architect referred us to, they were great.  They did the carpentry, roofing, siding, and subbed everything out.  One of the big things I noticed was that the quotes can really differ depending on the allowances that each company was figuring in.  Ideally, you want to use someone that doesn't require you to buy anything from certain suppliers.  Ours ended up giving us pricing that broke out the allowances.  For instance, Siding to match existing house might be $6K ($4K allowance included in price).  That way if you go with a lower priced siding that cost $3K, you know you'll have a $1K credit coming back.  We found that we were right on budget.  

I noticed other contractors were very tricky with their pricing.  We had one company that was $30K lower than the one we went with, only because they were quoting low quality materials.  

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 12:21:28 GMT -5 bookkeeper said:

Will you be using a bank for a construction loan or mortgage upon completion?  Are there many new builds going on in your area? I would think mortgage bankers in your area would have a working relationship with several general contractors as well as developers.  Often times the owner's bank is the one to pay the general contractor's bills as the work progresses.

When working on a remodel at my home, I learned a lot about prospective contractors from both the cabinet and flooring sales people. They definitely had a list of who not to work with.

I think you have made a good decision to hire a general contractor for your project.  You will still have so much to do as the property owner.  My friend is a contractor with 4 or 5 employees.  He often times has people act as their own GC on a big project, hey everybody wants to save money.  He often has customers tell him they will never take on that role again.  A good general contractor will keep your project moving along with all the trades.  Think of the interest you would pay if a large building project was somehow strung out for another 8 to 10 months because of lack of materials or labor.

Do your research and good luck!

We're paying cash and won't have a mortgage after.  There are some new builds in the area, but none of those places want the complexity of dealing with an existing structure and essentially doing a renovation/add-on.  They want to put up new homes on blank lots with floor plans they've used before.  The bank in town (really the only bank we have) has a good relationship with one person who does most of the big remodel projects in our town.  My wife works at the bank, and the contractor in town is one of the people we're bringing in to look at the project.

I wouldn't really enjoy being a GC, I knew even when I was acting as one before I wouldn't enjoy it and so had my wife do the majority of that stuff (calling, scheduling, etc). I was only doing it to begin with because I was doing the vast majority of the project, but needed help with some things (like excavation and concrete work, and wanted the roofing done quickly by a crew rather than muck through it myself).  Pretty much everything else I did myself.  I would definitely do that kind of thing again, just not with no help (i had mom, dad, brother, and wife before...mom is much older, dad is gone, wife is watching our kids, brother is now a single father of 2), 2 small children, and a project large enough it would take me at least a year.  I'm saving a few projects for myself (garage remodel, treehouse, probably the deck).

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 12:26:06 GMT -5 Ryan said:

We just went through a remodel and most new home builders didn't really specialize in additions, so those were ruled out.  We did get quotes for some big "full service" remodeling companies, but the prices were way oversized.

We went with a company that our architect referred us to, they were great.  They did the carpentry, roofing, siding, and subbed everything out.  One of the big things I noticed was that the quotes can really differ depending on the allowances that each company was figuring in.  Ideally, you want to use someone that doesn't require you to buy anything from certain suppliers.  Ours ended up giving us pricing that broke out the allowances.  For instance, Siding to match existing house might be $6K ($4K allowance included in price).  That way if you go with a lower priced siding that cost $3K, you know you'll have a $1K credit coming back.  We found that we were right on budget.  

I noticed other contractors were very tricky with their pricing.  We had one company that was $30K lower than the one we went with, only because they were quoting low quality materials.  

Any advice on how soon I should be looking for DETAILED pricing with allowances (I'm probably going to insist on the allowance method, as I may have hinted at before, I'm a control freak, I want to shop around and find the precise things I want from whoever I want them from).  To this point I have avoided getting too into-the-weeds on details such as finishes until I know if we're going to move forward for sure, I'm also understanding that their time is money so if they say "I usually get all my stuff from ABC company" I'll go there to look for what I want first and if it works, then let's get as much as we can from that company.

At the moment, I've kind of been approaching it as a 2-stage thing.

Stage 1:  Call and tell folks what we're doing, have them out to the house.  Get a general "builder grade" ballpark of an estimate and let them bring up any concerns with the general thought of what the house would look like finished (for example, if someone tells me they're going to get 50-foot trusses in for the roof, they're probably not who I'm looking for, there's a 0% chance that's financially feasible and they should know that given the drive to the house).  This includes answering a bunch of questions as well, things like "do you have an in-house architect, do we need an architect, etc" (this is a very basic build with an existing structure, I honestly don't think an architect is necessary and the county almost certainly won't require one).  

Stage 2:  If the ballparks seem like the project is viable, we move forward with detailed quotes after getting some more detailed plans drawn up (likely by me or them if they have a person in-house).  Bring back any of the contractors we felt might be good fits and had bids that seemed to be within our general wheelhouse.

[sheilaincali]

Slightly OT (sorry) when we built our house the carpenter told us to go pick out of trim/doors/etc from the one place he liked to use. I have a degree in Interior Design so I had very specific ideas of what I wanted. I walk in and introduce myself to the salesman. He tells me "Ok, let's go over here and I'll show you the items Craig prefers to order"- builder-freaking-grade. No thank you. I had to point out to the nice salesman several times that I was paying for the materials, not Craig and it was my house not Craig's so we'd be ordering what I wanted.

Watch out for that kind of thing. A contractor pushing you in the direction/towards the materials and finishes they like to use versus what you actually want.

[Bonny]

Are you using an architect?

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 15:03:25 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Are you using an architect?

Not unless we go with someone who really wants/needs them to work, which I don't think is likely to happen.  There's already an existing foundation, there's already part of a first floor (which we are tearing off because that's easier than building around it).  All of the "structural" stuff exists and is fairly straightforward.  The house itself will not be fancy, the foundation which exists is a 48'x48' box and we're just building straight up from there, so the house will be a 48'x48' box also.  There are 2 walls in the basement which take the load of the current first floor.  

I've basically already got a set of plans I've "drawn up" (not nearly as detailed as what an architect would do obviously).  I've had good success historically with just researching, drawing up plans, and building from those.  I think out of everything I've done previously, this might actually be the simplest in terms of the architectural part because I'm not adding on or building from scratch (honestly, it also will probably be the least "interesting" looking building, given I'm a bit hamstrung by the existing foundation, support walls, and garage locations).

[hoops902]

Jul 30, 2019 14:56:18 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Slightly OT (sorry) when we built our house the carpenter told us to go pick out of trim/doors/etc from the one place he liked to use. I have a degree in Interior Design so I had very specific ideas of what I wanted. I walk in and introduce myself to the salesman. He tells me "Ok, let's go over here and I'll show you the items Craig prefers to order"- builder-freaking-grade. No thank you. I had to point out to the nice salesman several times that I was paying for the materials, not Craig and it was my house not Craig's so we'd be ordering what I wanted.

Watch out for that kind of thing. A contractor pushing you in the direction/towards the materials and finishes they like to use versus what you actually want.

That's a great point.  I'm not one to get pushed into something I don't want, but I do typically leave "finishes" up to my wife in many cases...and she's certainly the type who would be easily talked into something convenient for the contractor but which she would slightly regret.  Or rather, if he said "these are your choices", her mind would go to "these are my choices, I can only pick from this" where my mind would go to "these aren't my choices, I can pick anything I please when I'm paying for it".  

[bookkeeper]

Have you investigated the building permit process and zoning for the property you plan to renovate.  The government agency that issues your building permit may require detailed plans and/or an architect or engineer to sign off on your plan.


Some municipalities and counties are very strict, others really don't care what happens as long as you are paying more property tax.  A quick phone call to the office that issues building permits may be worth your time at the beginning of your process.

[hoops902]

Jul 31, 2019 8:07:23 GMT -5 bookkeeper said:

Have you investigated the building permit process and zoning for the property you plan to renovate.  The government agency that issues your building permit may require detailed plans and/or an architect or engineer to sign off on your plan.


Some municipalities and counties are very strict, others really don't care what happens as long as you are paying more property tax.  A quick phone call to the office that issues building permits may be worth your time at the beginning of your process.

Yeah, I've built in this county before (as have the contractors I've been calling).  Last time I built a major project (not a renovation, adding on 1,000 square feet to a house) they required that I draw them a hand-drawn picture that showed my current house and the outside dimensions of it, a rectangle for the addition with the outside dimensions of it, and to write how far from the property lines everything was.  

It was a combination of "wow, I'm glad that was so easy" and "wow, they really aren't doing their jobs at all".  

My town is right at the crossroads of 3 counties.  2 are primarily rural and are basically lawless when it comes to building.  The 3rd encompasses the biggest city in the state and is SUPER picky about everything.  We stick to the rural 2 for everything we do.  That's typically the first question the contractors ask us as well when we call "which county are you actually in?".  I'm pretty sure I could build a lego house and tell them I'm working off of that as a reference and they'd think I was super professional for building a model instead of drawing a square on a napkin labeled "house".

[sheilaincali]

Jul 30, 2019 15:12:58 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 30, 2019 15:03:25 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Are you using an architect?

Not unless we go with someone who really wants/needs them to work, which I don't think is likely to happen.  There's already an existing foundation, there's already part of a first floor (which we are tearing off because that's easier than building around it).  All of the "structural" stuff exists and is fairly straightforward.  The house itself will not be fancy, the foundation which exists is a 48'x48' box and we're just building straight up from there, so the house will be a 48'x48' box also.  There are 2 walls in the basement which take the load of the current first floor.  

I've basically already got a set of plans I've "drawn up" (not nearly as detailed as what an architect would do obviously).  I've had good success historically with just researching, drawing up plans, and building from those.  I think out of everything I've done previously, this might actually be the simplest in terms of the architectural part because I'm not adding on or building from scratch (honestly, it also will probably be the least "interesting" looking building, given I'm a bit hamstrung by the existing foundation, support walls, and garage locations).

I don't know your area but our local lumber yard has a staff draftsman that will put the plans on CAD and get them nice and detailed. It was a free service in exchange for getting our lumbers and trusses from them. If you ended up not ordering from them they would back bill you for the drafting fee.  That may be an option for you if it gets to the point that you need more detailed drawings. I designed my own house using CAD but I did have their guy go over mine to make sure I wasn't missing anything and he was able to use that to do all of the material take-offs

[hoops902]

Jul 31, 2019 9:00:22 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Jul 30, 2019 15:12:58 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Not unless we go with someone who really wants/needs them to work, which I don't think is likely to happen.  There's already an existing foundation, there's already part of a first floor (which we are tearing off because that's easier than building around it).  All of the "structural" stuff exists and is fairly straightforward.  The house itself will not be fancy, the foundation which exists is a 48'x48' box and we're just building straight up from there, so the house will be a 48'x48' box also.  There are 2 walls in the basement which take the load of the current first floor.  

I've basically already got a set of plans I've "drawn up" (not nearly as detailed as what an architect would do obviously).  I've had good success historically with just researching, drawing up plans, and building from those.  I think out of everything I've done previously, this might actually be the simplest in terms of the architectural part because I'm not adding on or building from scratch (honestly, it also will probably be the least "interesting" looking building, given I'm a bit hamstrung by the existing foundation, support walls, and garage locations).

I don't know your area but our local lumber yard has a staff draftsman that will put the plans on CAD and get them nice and detailed. It was a free service in exchange for getting our lumbers and trusses from them. If you ended up not ordering from them they would back bill you for the drafting fee.  That may be an option for you if it gets to the point that you need more detailed drawings. I designed my own house using CAD but I did have their guy go over mine to make sure I wasn't missing anything and he was able to use that to do all of the material take-offs

That's a good idea.  I do have a CAD drawing that I did (I'm much more comfortable doing layouts in CAD than anything else because I'm much more focused on the construction of the layout than the function...that's my wife's job).  I got pretty into it when I was doing the big addition on our previous home, every wall was laid out with all the lumber, floor, roof, etc...I was so worried about having it pass the permit process...then they told me to draw 2 rectangles labeled "house" and "addition" and it was all for naught  lol.  I've tended to avoid doing that kind of stuff in the past (going to someone else for drawings) and now that I reflect on it, it's really 3 reasons:  1.  I already have plans that I've drawn that are good enough.  2.  It seems like a waste of time to tell someone else to draw what I've already drawn.  3.  I do the work myself which means I'm constantly changing/reconfiguring things right up until I start doing the actual work.

With this project it probably makes more sense to rely on others for some of these things because:  1.  I'm sure these other plans are better than what I draw, which means better ease/less confusion for the contractor.  2.  It would probably be super easy to hand them the drawings I have and have them detail them out better compared to what they usually get from customers.  3.  I'm not doing the work myself and therefore need a much more finalized plan going into it, so far fewer changes.


I'll have to check with my brother who works at a lumberyard to see what they've got for that kind of service...depending on what each contractor does (I know 2 of the 3 do their own drawings, so whatever they're comfortable with using is probably good with me).  

[Ryan]

Jul 30, 2019 13:34:36 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 30, 2019 12:26:06 GMT -5 Ryan said:

We just went through a remodel and most new home builders didn't really specialize in additions, so those were ruled out.  We did get quotes for some big "full service" remodeling companies, but the prices were way oversized.

We went with a company that our architect referred us to, they were great.  They did the carpentry, roofing, siding, and subbed everything out.  One of the big things I noticed was that the quotes can really differ depending on the allowances that each company was figuring in.  Ideally, you want to use someone that doesn't require you to buy anything from certain suppliers.  Ours ended up giving us pricing that broke out the allowances.  For instance, Siding to match existing house might be $6K ($4K allowance included in price).  That way if you go with a lower priced siding that cost $3K, you know you'll have a $1K credit coming back.  We found that we were right on budget.  

I noticed other contractors were very tricky with their pricing.  We had one company that was $30K lower than the one we went with, only because they were quoting low quality materials.  

Any advice on how soon I should be looking for DETAILED pricing with allowances (I'm probably going to insist on the allowance method, as I may have hinted at before, I'm a control freak, I want to shop around and find the precise things I want from whoever I want them from).  To this point I have avoided getting too into-the-weeds on details such as finishes until I know if we're going to move forward for sure, I'm also understanding that their time is money so if they say "I usually get all my stuff from ABC company" I'll go there to look for what I want first and if it works, then let's get as much as we can from that company.

At the moment, I've kind of been approaching it as a 2-stage thing.

Stage 1:  Call and tell folks what we're doing, have them out to the house.  Get a general "builder grade" ballpark of an estimate and let them bring up any concerns with the general thought of what the house would look like finished (for example, if someone tells me they're going to get 50-foot trusses in for the roof, they're probably not who I'm looking for, there's a 0% chance that's financially feasible and they should know that given the drive to the house).  This includes answering a bunch of questions as well, things like "do you have an in-house architect, do we need an architect, etc" (this is a very basic build with an existing structure, I honestly don't think an architect is necessary and the county almost certainly won't require one).  

Stage 2:  If the ballparks seem like the project is viable, we move forward with detailed quotes after getting some more detailed plans drawn up (likely by me or them if they have a person in-house).  Bring back any of the contractors we felt might be good fits and had bids that seemed to be within our general wheelhouse.

Some of the stuff like Drywall, plumbing, roofing, etc will not have an allowance.  Roofing might say "match existing" and then you'll just get what you already have.  Other stuff where you could spend a little or a lot (bathroom fixtures, cabinets, flooring, tile, siding, etc) will be included in the quote based off their best estimate on what you'd spend....at least that's how my guy did it.  He went and saw we were adding 4 sinks/facets, 2 toilets, 2 vanities, 1 bath, 1 shower, etc.  Then he just goes through and counts up the fixtures and multiplies it by an average price.  Ditto with SF of the shower to get the tile price, size of vanity to get cabinet/countertop price.  Since those costs can vary quite a bit, they'll usually specify that out in the contract.  

Just my 2cents, I think it's really really hard to get quotes without drawings.  I'd spend the money to get them done because the architect will think of things that you won't.  It's also way easier for the contractor to give you an accurate price because the electricians count up the outlets, switches, fixtures, etc.  I honestly can't imagine just sketching it on paper and then having the contractor quote it.  It seems like you'll end up being way off in the end.  

[hoops902]

Jul 31, 2019 11:52:16 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Jul 30, 2019 13:34:36 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Any advice on how soon I should be looking for DETAILED pricing with allowances (I'm probably going to insist on the allowance method, as I may have hinted at before, I'm a control freak, I want to shop around and find the precise things I want from whoever I want them from).  To this point I have avoided getting too into-the-weeds on details such as finishes until I know if we're going to move forward for sure, I'm also understanding that their time is money so if they say "I usually get all my stuff from ABC company" I'll go there to look for what I want first and if it works, then let's get as much as we can from that company.

At the moment, I've kind of been approaching it as a 2-stage thing.

Stage 1:  Call and tell folks what we're doing, have them out to the house.  Get a general "builder grade" ballpark of an estimate and let them bring up any concerns with the general thought of what the house would look like finished (for example, if someone tells me they're going to get 50-foot trusses in for the roof, they're probably not who I'm looking for, there's a 0% chance that's financially feasible and they should know that given the drive to the house).  This includes answering a bunch of questions as well, things like "do you have an in-house architect, do we need an architect, etc" (this is a very basic build with an existing structure, I honestly don't think an architect is necessary and the county almost certainly won't require one).  

Stage 2:  If the ballparks seem like the project is viable, we move forward with detailed quotes after getting some more detailed plans drawn up (likely by me or them if they have a person in-house).  Bring back any of the contractors we felt might be good fits and had bids that seemed to be within our general wheelhouse.

Some of the stuff like Drywall, plumbing, roofing, etc will not have an allowance.  Roofing might say "match existing" and then you'll just get what you already have.  Other stuff where you could spend a little or a lot (bathroom fixtures, cabinets, flooring, tile, siding, etc) will be included in the quote based off their best estimate on what you'd spend....at least that's how my guy did it.  He went and saw we were adding 4 sinks/facets, 2 toilets, 2 vanities, 1 bath, 1 shower, etc.  Then he just goes through and counts up the fixtures and multiplies it by an average price.  Ditto with SF of the shower to get the tile price, size of vanity to get cabinet/countertop price.  Since those costs can vary quite a bit, they'll usually specify that out in the contract.  

Just my 2cents, I think it's really really hard to get quotes without drawings.  I'd spend the money to get them done because the architect will think of things that you won't.  It's also way easier for the contractor to give you an accurate price because the electricians count up the outlets, switches, fixtures, etc.  I honestly can't imagine just sketching it on paper and then having the contractor quote it.  It seems like you'll end up being way off in the end.  

And that's probably ok with what we're doing for this round.  We're mostly looking for people who think they've got an ability to do it, and if they can say "it's somewhere between 200-300k" we're fine with that. If they say "It's probably 400-500k" we'll know we're not moving forward with it and will start exploring other routes.

FWIW, my "sketch" is in CAD.  It's got all the fixtures already in it, outlets, lights, switches, cabinet sizes for uppers and lowers, etc.  It's got the outdoor lights, where there's a ceiling fan or chandelier, etc.  It doesn't have what "I" would consider detail (like which things go on which circuits, which tile is in use where, etc). 

I'm trying to hold off on paying anyone to do drawings until a contractor says "yeah, I can do that" or "holy ****, you're making that really complicated and it's going to get real expensive real fast".  Maybe it's accurate to say that I'm treating the first meeting with contractors as a mix of consultation and feeling out for the job.  Maybe I just know too many people who got plans drawn only to find out their contractor had much better ideas for efficiency of construction than their dream plans.  

Before we get to detailed quoting, there will definitely be detailed drawings, either mine or the contractors' (2 of the 3 we've called have already said they typically do their own drawings).  I had been hoping to get a wide ballpark here just to confirm the project is financially feasible before barrelling in a lot of my own time (I know I'm going to get REAL nit-picky with drawings, I obsess to the point of picking all the finishes and labeling them in the drawings, which is a lot of work for a project that may never happen).  Maybe the answer I'm taking away is that it shouldn't matter what they ballpark us during this visit, and worry more about if they seem competent and then get detailed quotes from anyone who appears to be a good fit...whether their initial ballpark is close to our budget or not (and then see if we can bring costs down from their ballpark by making smart selections).  I had been hoping to narrow it down to 1 person to at least start working with based on this first round, but maybe I should leave it more open-ended.  

[Ryan]

Jul 31, 2019 12:24:23 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jul 31, 2019 11:52:16 GMT -5 Ryan said:

Some of the stuff like Drywall, plumbing, roofing, etc will not have an allowance.  Roofing might say "match existing" and then you'll just get what you already have.  Other stuff where you could spend a little or a lot (bathroom fixtures, cabinets, flooring, tile, siding, etc) will be included in the quote based off their best estimate on what you'd spend....at least that's how my guy did it.  He went and saw we were adding 4 sinks/facets, 2 toilets, 2 vanities, 1 bath, 1 shower, etc.  Then he just goes through and counts up the fixtures and multiplies it by an average price.  Ditto with SF of the shower to get the tile price, size of vanity to get cabinet/countertop price.  Since those costs can vary quite a bit, they'll usually specify that out in the contract.  

Just my 2cents, I think it's really really hard to get quotes without drawings.  I'd spend the money to get them done because the architect will think of things that you won't.  It's also way easier for the contractor to give you an accurate price because the electricians count up the outlets, switches, fixtures, etc.  I honestly can't imagine just sketching it on paper and then having the contractor quote it.  It seems like you'll end up being way off in the end.  

And that's probably ok with what we're doing for this round.  We're mostly looking for people who think they've got an ability to do it, and if they can say "it's somewhere between 200-300k" we're fine with that. If they say "It's probably 400-500k" we'll know we're not moving forward with it and will start exploring other routes.

FWIW, my "sketch" is in CAD.  It's got all the fixtures already in it, outlets, lights, switches, cabinet sizes for uppers and lowers, etc.  It's got the outdoor lights, where there's a ceiling fan or chandelier, etc.  It doesn't have what "I" would consider detail (like which things go on which circuits, which tile is in use where, etc). 

I'm trying to hold off on paying anyone to do drawings until a contractor says "yeah, I can do that" or "holy ****, you're making that really complicated and it's going to get real expensive real fast".  Maybe it's accurate to say that I'm treating the first meeting with contractors as a mix of consultation and feeling out for the job.  Maybe I just know too many people who got plans drawn only to find out their contractor had much better ideas for efficiency of construction than their dream plans.  

Before we get to detailed quoting, there will definitely be detailed drawings, either mine or the contractors' (2 of the 3 we've called have already said they typically do their own drawings).  I had been hoping to get a wide ballpark here just to confirm the project is financially feasible before barrelling in a lot of my own time (I know I'm going to get REAL nit-picky with drawings, I obsess to the point of picking all the finishes and labeling them in the drawings, which is a lot of work for a project that may never happen).  Maybe the answer I'm taking away is that it shouldn't matter what they ballpark us during this visit, and worry more about if they seem competent and then get detailed quotes from anyone who appears to be a good fit...whether their initial ballpark is close to our budget or not (and then see if we can bring costs down from their ballpark by making smart selections).  I had been hoping to narrow it down to 1 person to at least start working with based on this first round, but maybe I should leave it more open-ended.  

I hear you, I guess my experience was that contractors really don't seem to put a lot of thought into the quote until they see something from an architect.  Maybe it's their way of making sure the homeowner is committed before putting too much effort into the job.  For us, our project cost $120K and the "ballpark" quotes that we got initially were anywhere from $100-$160K, so maybe they weren't far off.  I just never got the impression that they were thinking about it much, therefore I didn't put a lot of trust in it.

[jerseygirl]

Ask if builder has names and addresses of work done do you can look at them. Some people might also let you in house to look.

Our contractor gave us an ‘allowsnce’ For faucets tile etc .

[hoops902]

Quick update (will it be quick?  I don't know, I'm leading with that without knowing how much I'm actually going to type):

We met with 2 folks on Saturday, and the 3rd we plan to meet with tonight.

I'll start with the 2nd guy we met.  He is a contractor here in town, we know him, he's a very nice guy.  We've had him quote some previous stuff I didn't want to work on myself, and his quotes were always much higher than I wanted to pay so primarily have decided to do those projects myself after all (his prices seem high, he acknowledges they are high but he is always busy even at higher prices).  He seemed...overwhelmed at the scope of the project.  He just built his own house, and even though this is significantly less work and my wife told him when she ran into him that it was "basically new construction", he definitely seemed like a deer in headlights.  He took very few notes, and I had to explain things multiple times.  I was really hoping he'd be a good fit (he's local, he has a vested interest in doing a good job given we need a contractor for rental houses now that dad is gone, it's a small town where word spreads fast, etc), but he definitely is not.  He seemed very thankful that we'd considered him and had him look at the project, but I think it was more about the relationship with the family that we'd considered him, he'll probably be relieved when we don't go with him (also a real "fly by the seat of his pants" type, said we'd talk next week initially, then texted if we could meet Saturday, then texted he was there before he told us a time and I don't live in that house, etc...just not a good fit with my OCD style).

First guy seemed like a great option (pending price, which won't be for another month or so given his impending vacation). He seemed super impressed that we had a 2-page list of what was being done, plus drawings.  He buys his materials at the place my brother works, his HVAC sub is a guy we've used before for a massive remodel and is owned by my mom's best friend's son, and he seems to specialize in these "bigger than remodel but not quite new construction" type projects).  He seems a bit OCD in the same way I am, talking about detailing EVERYTHING in his quote and how he's open to adding more detail that I might want.  He wants it all written, no assumptions.  He was pretty clear up front about all the things he'd prefer not to get involved in but will if we insist (landscaping, door hardware, kitchen hardware, appliances, closet systems, etc)...which is great because I don't want to pay a contractor to shop that stuff to begin with, and I'm pretty handy and jonesing for things I can do to contribute.  Seemed very interested in thinking about the project (who is going to live here, what's your lifestyle, how old are you kids) and had some good alternative suggestions based on the information.  If he comes back reasonably priced (which I do think he will) then it will be between him and the guy we see tonight (he was VERY into "you should get lien-waivers from me at every stage, you should absolutely get an insurance certificate from me even though nobody does, I'm going to email you my license number and you should definitely go look it up, here are some houses I've done recently and ones I did years ago that you can talk to").  He gave the vibe of "I do things the right way, please research me as much as possible because I'm going to come out of it shining a lot better than others will if you research them to the same extent".  My wife can get along with everyone, but I don't (which I suppose is why she's in customer service and I set in an office doing analysis/finance).  The fact that I thought he seemed tolerable is a good sign (i.e. he was not very sales-y, he seemed to rely on "I might be blunt and an introvert, but I do really good work", which is my style).

The best news was that both folks looked at the current house, which is over 40 years old and basically said "holy **** whoever built this really over-engineered everything, it's all very bulky/strong, we can use a lot that's here already".  On the financial side that means buying less new materials, and my mom was super proud to hear them talking that way about a house she built.  

[hoops902]

Update:  Could probably be titled "this is why I don't hire contractors and just do all of my projects myself".

We met with everyone almost 2 months ago, 3 contractors in total.  1 guy was local, 2 were not (the 2 who were not were going on vacation so told us quotes would take a month, which was fine).

So 1 month goes by.  Nothing, nada.  My wife calls up everyone and they say they're still working on it.  Eventually, everyone gets a deadline of today (9/27) because we can't wait any longer.

Here's a quick breakdown of the time with each contractor.

Local guy:  Seems kind of overwhelmed when he visits us, but says he is interested.  I know he's done a few big projects before, and he's really expanding his business.  I'm ok being a bit of a guinea pig for him because he does quality work.  After hearing nothing for a month we call him and ask if he is planning on bidding, but that if he doesn't want to that's fine too since it's a bigger job for him.  He assures us he is bidding, he's excited, it's just big and slightly overwhelming.  We call again 2 weeks later after receiving nothing.  He says he is finishing up the quote.  We call last week and give him the deadline, he shows up at my wife's job a few days later (at a bank, he goes there a lot) and tells her he thinks it's too big of a job for him and he probably won't bid on it.  Part of me says "no shit, I knew you weren't doing it when we first met you" and part of me says "why didn't you just tell me back then?".  Either way, no real hard feelings.  I just wish he'd told me earlier, I couldn't decide if he seemed overwhelmed because he was actually overwhelmed, or just because there are rarely renovation-type projects of this size in our small town, and he pretty much only works in our small town.

Non-Local Guy 1:  After a month finally gives us a number, but it's a new guy at the company.  His boss came out initially, for 15 minutes, and left.  This guy comes with an "on average it costs this much per square foot" quote that says he thinks it will be somewhere between $450k-650k.  Thanks, super helpful...not at all...did you really just Google "cost per square foot to build a house" and then use that as your quote?  Why didn't you just say somewhere between $0-$1 billion?  That would have been just as meaningful to me.  He talks to me for 2 HOURS about details, because I tell him I need a much more detailed quote than that.  He assures me he'll hammer down some more meaningful numbers for me, line items, allowances, all of that, and he'll have them for me by the deadline.  A week before the deadline he wants to present his numbers in person, but he's busy, so can we wait a month?  Or if not he can just send his proposal via email (I get he's busy, he's working 2 jobs, one at his current company and one at this new company because he is taking it over, so he's basically working a billion hours a week).  We tell him to email it...his proposal is 2-3 pages of "About the company" info...and then a little line that says he thinks it will cost somewhere between $475k-$625k with literally NO detail anywhere else.  Oh but wait, he can GET me better numbers after we go through a more detailed design plan...and that'll only cost me "$10k-20k" for their "design services".  The guy who owns the company is retiring, and being taken over by this guy unrelated to the company buying it, not exactly my dream scenario for hiring a company.

Non-Local Guy 2:  This was the guy I liked immediately because he's a terrible salesperson.  He is a construction guy through and through.  His initial meeting was peppered with him saying "you should do X (get a copy of his license, get lien waivers, get an insurance certificate, etc) from him, but we probably won't because nobody ever does...but we should"...which I appreciated.  He says at the time he's going to give us a practically booksized breakdown of line by line items so there is no confusion.  Every time we call him to ask where the heck his bid is, he sounds super excited to bid on it, but isn't done yet.  I know he's serious about it because he drove 1.5 hours round trip the other day to take a 2nd look at some specifics on the house to get a more accurate bid, which he wouldn't do if he weren't serious, and then he comes back and spends the same amount of time looking at the back deck/porch area because we're not sure what we want to do with it going forward.  And now it's nearly noon on the day of the deadline, and I haven't heard a word from him yet.  He's the guy I'd prefer to work with, I'm 95% certain his bid will be the lowest (because he's not design-obsessed like non local guy 1, and he doesn't do tons of small jobs that are high margin like local guy)...AND he wants to start soon because winter is his slow time and this is one of the few projects he can do in the middle of winter and keep his guys busy in one location for months at a time...it's all perfect...except that small matter of GETTING ME AN ACTUAL QUOTE!  lol.

Maybe he'll still pull through, he's got another 12 hours.  I had this discussion with my wife last night that THIS is exactly why I just work myself into the ground on most projects no matter their size...because even running myself ragged is better than the unreliability of most contractors (especially when it comes to speculative things like bidding on jobs they only have a chance to receive).  

If no quote today, that means we either:

1.  Start from scratch with more contractors.
2.  I build it myself over the next 2 years and probably end up divorced.
3.  Act as GC myself, hire a framer to get it dried in, and then split the rest of it between hiring it out and doing it myself (I'd prefer not to, because that will be only slightly less stressful than option 2, and probably also leads to divorce and possibly a homicide in there somewhere...just not sure which of us is the killer/victim).

[wvugurl26]

Sounds about how it goes when we try to hire people. Getting them to bid, show up on time and do the work is incredibly difficult. Our work is much smaller than what you are trying to do.

The excavation guy last year was a nightmare. If he had put down the cellphone when he did show up, it would have gone much faster.

Tried to hire out the deck rebuild this spring and no luck. They claimed to be willing to do it in the fall during their slow season. I'm doubtful.

BIL had a guy to do the steps inside. Yanking the carpet up and finishing them. $125/tread, great let's do this. Oh they are booked up.

I hope to have better luck replacing the front door and storm door. The frame is busted up top and it leaks when it rains. And the house has settled in the last 18 years since it was built. Needs replaced before winter.

I hope the final guy gets a quote to you.

My DH is capable of doing a lot. He spent years working for a talented general contractor before deciding a desk job might not be so bad. Time is a huge issue. With his 3 hour round trip commute, there aren't enough weekends or vacation days.

[hoops902]

Final guy called my wife at lunch to tell her that he's still working on it and will have something tonight.  We told everyone there was a "family meeting" tomorrow to go over all the bids with my mom and brother and figure out which one we'd move forward with.  Totally fictional, especially since only 1 guy MIGHT get us numbers really...but he wanted to ask us to please check our emails late tonight so that we didn't miss his bid.  I'm pretty confident he's going to send something.

I've had pretty good luck getting bids on smaller jobs, my problem with those is that the margins tend to be so high on the small jobs, and when the job is small the labor takes up such a big piece of the price that I can't justify to myself hiring it out when I could just do it myself on my own time and also save money shopping for good material prices.  

The issue with getting people to bid, show up, and work is exactly why we're trying to hire a GC for this project.  I work 45 minutes away so I can visit the site every day but not really during work hours.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Locally, it is difficult to find anyone willing to do a fairly big, individual job.  It seems most contractors are interested in doing the big apartment developments and the ilk.

Winter before last, we were looking for someone to replace the siding on our house.  House needs to be painted, a good portion of the siding is rotten, enough that probably the whole house should be redone.  We got several bids, and wound up accepting the highest bid.  The difference was only about 10%, but this guy had good reviews/references from multiple sources.  He was also highly recommended by the guy who bid on painting the house once the siding was done.  Painter painted our interior the previous year, also not inexpensive but he did a very good job.  So we were willing to go with him again.  Signed off on the acceptance in March, and was informed that the sider would be in in early September.  At the end of Aug., I asked TD to contact the sider to find out an estimated start date so I could work with this.  After about 2 weeks, the sider got back to us and told us that he decided he didn't want to do the job, thanks anyway.  At this point, it was impossible to get anyone because rainy season had started.  

This past summer, we just let things ride, but the house needs to be painted and it makes absolutely no sense to paint rotten boards.  So we are going to need to start this all over and try to get this done next summer.  I am not looking forward to this.