happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 1, 2019 15:38:47 GMT -5
Substitute 'pedophilia' for killing in your theory.
Because there have been pedophiles throughout history, should we shrug when little kids get molested, and just tell them it's human nature, so what can you do?
Humans have all kinds of bad impulses. Most people can control them, some cannot. Civilized societies have always tried to protect innocent people from the ones who can't control their bad impulses. Every other western civilization except ours has put limits onto who can qualify to own and carry a gun, requiring all it's citizens to give up a little of their rights in order to benefit the rest of them.
Kind of like how we require people who apply for a job at a day care to complete a background check verifying they've never been arrested for molesting a child, it would be nice if someone who applied to own a gun had to do some verification that they didn't have a history of violence, weren't engaged in a bad breakup, or just suffered in some way from an unbalanced mind that might prevent them from being able to ignore the impulse to pick up a gun and start shooting random people just for fun. If day care workers can tolerate the indignity of having a background check to weed out the bad apples, surely gun owners can put up with indignity of a background check to weed out the potential mass murderers.
Or we can just throw our hands up and say that, while we want to protect kids from being molested, we don't give two shits if they get shot at a garlic festival.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 2, 2019 9:19:52 GMT -5
I see one glaring problem with your answer. You've missed out the word "random". It's bolded in the quote and I'm sure that was done for a reason. There's a difference between killing at random (as in people you don't even know) and killing because you feel the victim has wronged you in some way, or in self-defense or war. It's not about labels, or conditions appended by the ever-present "we". It's about the motivations of the killer. Random killings are, indeed, psychopathic - in my opinion and that of most professionals versed in the subject.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:27:02 GMT -5
Substitute 'pedophilia' for killing in your theory.
Because there have been pedophiles throughout history, should we shrug when little kids get molested, and just tell them it's human nature, so what can you do?
Humans have all kinds of bad impulses. Most people can control them, some cannot. Civilized societies have always tried to protect innocent people from the ones who can't control their bad impulses. Every other western civilization except ours has put limits onto who can qualify to own and carry a gun, requiring all it's citizens to give up a little of their rights in order to benefit the rest of them.
Kind of like how we require people who apply for a job at a day care to complete a background check verifying they've never been arrested for molesting a child, it would be nice if someone who applied to own a gun had to do some verification that they didn't have a history of violence, weren't engaged in a bad breakup, or just suffered in some way from an unbalanced mind that might prevent them from being able to ignore the impulse to pick up a gun and start shooting random people just for fun. If day care workers can tolerate the indignity of having a background check to weed out the bad apples, surely gun owners can put up with indignity of a background check to weed out the potential mass murderers.
Or we can just throw our hands up and say that, while we want to protect kids from being molested, we don't give two shits if they get shot at a garlic festival.
Nice, extensive, nonsense post. But it does make my pro gun argument. A gun is a tool/inanimate object. However... A pedophile is a person, using parts of his body to affect a crime A criminal is also a person, using an inanimate object to affect a crime. This time, a criminal cut through the fence and used an inanimate tool to accomplish his crime. My statement was that it's part of human nature to kill. Just requires the right motivation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:28:40 GMT -5
I see one glaring problem with your answer. You've missed out the word "random". It's bolded in the quote and I'm sure that was done for a reason. There's a difference between killing at random (as in people you don't even know) and killing because you feel the victim has wronged you in some way, or in self-defense or war. It's not about labels, or conditions appended by the ever-present "we". It's about the motivations of the killer. Random killings are, indeed, psychopathic - in my opinion and that of most professionals versed in the subject. No glaring mistake. He added the random as part of his answer to my post. I made no such claim.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 2, 2019 9:38:55 GMT -5
I see one glaring problem with your answer. You've missed out the word "random". It's bolded in the quote and I'm sure that was done for a reason. There's a difference between killing at random (as in people you don't even know) and killing because you feel the victim has wronged you in some way, or in self-defense or war. It's not about labels, or conditions appended by the ever-present "we". It's about the motivations of the killer. Random killings are, indeed, psychopathic - in my opinion and that of most professionals versed in the subject. No glaring mistake. He added the random as part of his answer to my post. I made no such claim. Ah. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:42:16 GMT -5
Maybe killing is just a part of YOUR nature. It's not mine and it's not how I raised my children. So, NO, killing isn't just part of human nature. Killing, like hatred, has to be taught. We all are capable of killing. Our behavior patterns are resultant of our environment, which includes things we are taught, but not inclusive to 'only' things we are taught. Given the right motivation, we all will kill if the situation requires it. You bringing up your children and grandkids all the time, who I bet you would definitely protect by killing a mass murderer on the run, if required to do so after he invaded your home, would be one hypothetical. Are the odds long for this ? Very much so. About as long as getting killed in any mass shooting. My point remains, even with your nasty attempt to make it about me. ( "your nature")
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 2, 2019 9:49:55 GMT -5
Maybe killing is just a part of YOUR nature. It's not mine and it's not how I raised my children. So, NO, killing isn't just part of human nature. Killing, like hatred, has to be taught. We all are capable of killing. Our behavior patterns are resultant of our environment, which includes things we are taught, but not inclusive to 'only' things we are taught. Given the right motivation, we all will kill if the situation requires it. You bringing up your children and grandkids all the time, who I bet you would definitely protect by killing a mass murderer on the run, if required to do so after he invaded your home, would be one hypothetical. Are the odds long for this ? Very much so. About as long as getting killed in any mass shooting. My point remains, even with your attempt to make it about me. ( "your nature") If you cannot see a difference between protecting one's family from harm and randomly shooting strangers like fish in a barrell, then I have no words.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 9:57:20 GMT -5
We all are capable of killing. Our behavior patterns are resultant of our environment, which includes things we are taught, but not inclusive to 'only' things we are taught. Given the right motivation, we all will kill if the situation requires it. You bringing up your children and grandkids all the time, who I bet you would definitely protect by killing a mass murderer on the run, if required to do so after he invaded your home, would be one hypothetical. Are the odds long for this ? Very much so. About as long as getting killed in any mass shooting. My point remains, even with your attempt to make it about me. ( "your nature") If you cannot see a difference between protecting one's family from harm and randomly shooting strangers like fish in a barrell, then I have no words. I can see the difference, but thanks for making my point of we are all capable of killing, you included. My point remains. The difference is... His motivation is different than yours would be. Also, if a person won't be deterred by murder being against the law, with the ultimate penalty waiting in the wings. He isn't going to be deterred by a gun law. Case in point, this last festival killing.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 2, 2019 17:54:47 GMT -5
Apparently, cops shot & killed the shooter within a minute of the shooting starting. So would a random "good guy with a gun" have done better? And in less than a minute, he shot 15 people and killed 3 of them. IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. Coroner's report states the shooter's fatal wound was self-inflicted. link
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 2, 2019 18:44:30 GMT -5
If you cannot see a difference between protecting one's family from harm and randomly shooting strangers like fish in a barrell, then I have no words. I can see the difference, but thanks for making my point of we are all capable of killing, you included. My point remains. The difference is... His motivation is different than yours would be. Also, if a person won't be deterred by murder being against the law, with the ultimate penalty waiting in the wings. He isn't going to be deterred by a gun law. Case in point, this last festival killing. He COULD be deterred by not being able to easily obtain a gun - but people like you don’t want that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 11:08:19 GMT -5
I can see the difference, but thanks for making my point of we are all capable of killing, you included. My point remains. The difference is... His motivation is different than yours would be. Also, if a person won't be deterred by murder being against the law, with the ultimate penalty waiting in the wings. He isn't going to be deterred by a gun law. Case in point, this last festival killing. He COULD be deterred by not being able to easily obtain a gun - but people like you don’t want that. The process is in place for removing/reducing the Second Amendment. Also the Supreme Court ruling affirming the individual right. It would seem nearly impossible to go that route, although it did happen for prohibition. The reason for that is there are a 'lot' of people like me, who choose to protect themselves instead of hiring big police forces with all the resultant problems. By the way, there is a Supreme Court ruling that police are not required to protect citizens, only enforce the law. You are free to choose to not protect yourself, or restrict how you do it. I'm good with that. Until those who claim to be able to engineer this utopia, and eliminate the criminal element, I will retain my stance on this, and my self defense guns. As an aside, "easily obtain" means little for those who wish to commit murder. His motivation to obtain, or be restricted by your perceived difficulty level, won't be the same as yours.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 11:24:09 GMT -5
Apparently, cops shot & killed the shooter within a minute of the shooting starting. So would a random "good guy with a gun" have done better? And in less than a minute, he shot 15 people and killed 3 of them. IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. Coroner's report states the shooter's fatal wound was self-inflicted. linkLike a suicide bomber, how do you stop someone from killing people when they are willing to kill themselves in the process ? There is something else happening, worldwide, that we don't understand.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Aug 4, 2019 12:09:58 GMT -5
251 mass shootings in 216 days so far this year....32 dead in less than a week!
Jma is correct, I would have no trouble shooting someone if they threatened me or mine...have come really close once in my life...had long gun in hand pointed down...as the person advanced on me after my telling them they were close enough...I started raising the gun until it was pointed at their mid section. That didn't scare him...but when I told him that the dog at my side with his hair up & teeth bared had been trained to K I L L on command, he stopped! So the dog was more of a threat to this individual than the loaded, cocked gun I had in my hands.
I hope everyone is able to watch Beto's interview on CNN this morning...he lays the blame exactly were it belongs...without beating around the bush!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 4, 2019 12:10:26 GMT -5
Coroner's report states the shooter's fatal wound was self-inflicted. linkLike a suicide bomber, how do you stop someone from killing people when they are willing to kill themselves in the process ? There is something else happening, worldwide, that we don't understand. Islamic suicide bombers who blow up themselves and others do so under the religious belief life after death is much better than their earthly life. The motive for the Gilroy shootings is still unknown at this time. The picture of the El Paso shooter will become more clear over the next few days. Same holds true for the Dayton shooter.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 4, 2019 13:23:20 GMT -5
The sister's boyfriend was shot and killed too. @x - this might have something to do for the shooter's reason to kill. Dayton police: The shooter's sister is among the deadDayton Police Deputy Chief Matt Carper confirmed that Connor Betts is the shooter and that his sister Megan Betts, 22, was one of those killed. Speaking at a press conference, Carper identified the nine slain victims, who ranged in age from 22 to 57. He said all families have been notified. Carper said all nine of the victims were found in the same location. Dayton police: The shooter's sister is among the dead
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 13:55:58 GMT -5
The sister's boyfriend was shot and killed too. @x - this might have something to do for the shooter's reason to kill. Dayton police: The shooter's sister is among the deadDayton Police Deputy Chief Matt Carper confirmed that Connor Betts is the shooter and that his sister Megan Betts, 22, was one of those killed. Speaking at a press conference, Carper identified the nine slain victims, who ranged in age from 22 to 57. He said all families have been notified. Carper said all nine of the victims were found in the same location. Dayton police: The shooter's sister is among the deadAgreed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 4, 2019 14:19:37 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 4, 2019 14:21:07 GMT -5
of course. but I will take my chances with a guy with a shotgun or a butterknife, if I have that alternative. wouldn't you?
False dichotomy, your oversimplifying. Not even close to being an alternative, in finding a way to kill people, as OC stated. it is if everyone is in jail.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 4, 2019 14:23:00 GMT -5
I see one glaring problem with your answer. You've missed out the word "random". It's bolded in the quote and I'm sure that was done for a reason. There's a difference between killing at random (as in people you don't even know) and killing because you feel the victim has wronged you in some way, or in self-defense or war. It's not about labels, or conditions appended by the ever-present "we". It's about the motivations of the killer. Random killings are, indeed, psychopathic - in my opinion and that of most professionals versed in the subject. No glaring mistake. He added the random as part of his answer to my post. I made no such claim. you claimed that killing is human nature. i claimed that random killing was not.
do you agree or disagree?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:20:36 GMT -5
No glaring mistake. He added the random as part of his answer to my post. I made no such claim. you claimed that killing is human nature. i claimed that random killing was not.
do you agree or disagree?
Since there is no conclusive study to say you are wrong. I would tend to agree with you that random killing of strangers is a mental aberration. For the fact that there is no reason for it, that the rest of us can see. In an acceptability by a our culture as a whole. I look at it as if a person can do this, it's a part of our nature. There is no rule that behavioral human nature is an absolute to the whole human race. Subsets of behavior exist everywhere.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 16:23:29 GMT -5
The first picture is that of a Ruger 10/22,, .22 rim fire rifle..
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 4, 2019 19:25:15 GMT -5
This is what some reports are saying the Dayton shooter had on his weapon.
How many deer does an average hunter kill at 1 time? Or is this just a people hunter magazine?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 19:40:38 GMT -5
We all are capable of killing. Our behavior patterns are resultant of our environment, which includes things we are taught, but not inclusive to 'only' things we are taught. Given the right motivation, we all will kill if the situation requires it. You bringing up your children and grandkids all the time, who I bet you would definitely protect by killing a mass murderer on the run, if required to do so after he invaded your home, would be one hypothetical. Are the odds long for this ? Very much so. About as long as getting killed in any mass shooting. My point remains, even with your attempt to make it about me. ( "your nature") If you cannot see a difference between protecting one's family from harm and randomly shooting strangers like fish in a barrell, then I have no words. Of course you you have , lots of words, The hate you spew is the same hate the shooter have toward the the target they kill. There seems only hate comes out of your mouth, towards the president, Conservatives, and Conservative posters!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 19:42:39 GMT -5
This is what some reports are saying the Dayton shooter had on his weapon.
How many deer does an average hunter kill at 1 time? Or is this just a people hunter magazine?
It probably is a benefit, because it has a tendency to jam, becoming inoperable!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 19:45:03 GMT -5
Quite ironically, this post was started for the event in Gilroy CA. Yesterday we had El Paso. And then we wake up to the news of the mass shooting- and it is Dayton Ohio. We quite literally cannot keep up any longer. They are just too frequent. OK Demi, What are you going to do,, that is effective in stopping this??
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 19:52:10 GMT -5
251 mass shootings in 216 days so far this year....32 dead in less than a week! Jma is correct, I would have no trouble shooting someone if they threatened me or mine...have come really close once in my life...had long gun in hand pointed down...as the person advanced on me after my telling them they were close enough...I started raising the gun until it was pointed at their mid section. That didn't scare him...but when I told him that the dog at my side with his hair up & teeth bared had been trained to K I L L on command, he stopped! So the dog was more of a threat to this individual than the loaded, cocked gun I had in my hands. I hope everyone is able to watch Beto's interview on CNN this morning...he lays the blame exactly were it belongs...without beating around the bush! The hate Beto is spewing is part of the problem, Let's spread the hate let's create a greater divide! Yes, blame Trump, Trump is the racist that caused this,, Show me the proof that Trump caused any of these shootings. Lets follow Beto,, Come on all you people of color lets get even with those bastard white people. Is that the message we are getting here. it sure as the hell is!!
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Aug 4, 2019 21:07:55 GMT -5
IMHO, this sums up the role the POTUS plays in some of these mass killings.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 4, 2019 21:27:25 GMT -5
IMHO, this sums up the role the POTUS plays in some of these mass killings. Here is the response from AZ House member, district 27 Diego Rodriguez.
@diego4justice Follow Follow @diego4justice More Diego Rodriguez Retweeted ABC News 45s constant racist dogwhistles to his white nationalist/racist base produced this killer. Death is the legacy of a @gop that is infected with ignorance and hate down to its marrow. We see Domestic white terrorism is a serious threat to these UNITED STATES and we will defeat it. Great response Diego,, I see you are trying real hard to keep race out of politics,and keep the hate down.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2019 21:40:56 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 5, 2019 0:44:01 GMT -5
you claimed that killing is human nature. i claimed that random killing was not.
do you agree or disagree?
Since there is no conclusive study to say you are wrong. I would tend to agree with you that random killing of strangers is a mental aberration. cool. for the record, I am not asking for a scientific study. I don't even think "human nature" is a valid concept. I was simply asking for your opinion.
thanks for offering it.
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