OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 25, 2019 23:33:29 GMT -5
Taking out a boatload of debt for careers that don’t pay a lot would be stupid. I worked full time, went to school full time and managed to graduate with manageable debt. Responsible people shouldn’t be left to pick up the tab for people who take on boatloads of student loan debt i don't know why everyone keeps saying that.
first of all, whether a person is responsible or irresponsible is not really for us to judge. we are not impartial. i might be inclined to be more lenient than i should be, and you might be less so. it should be up to some objective third party to judge.
second, we might not be talking about very much debt. my debt, when i finally torpedoed it in 1999, was $5k.
finally, shit does happen. there should be a path for people that are in distress to get out of it for the fact of making non-malicious simple mistakes, or their own misfortune. i don't need to outline any scenarios. you are an intelligent woman. you can come up with your own.
we need to get to a place in this country where people can take chances and opportunities again. the prospect of being saddled with a lifetime of student loan debt because your job prospects dried up or were outsourced (as an example) just strikes me as morally wrong.
we have had lots of conversations like this, so i will just leave it at that. you know what i would say, anyway.
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 25, 2019 23:35:40 GMT -5
Now you reminded me of the marine science grad, with a masters,, working at a local gas station.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jul 25, 2019 23:40:22 GMT -5
Did you bail out Reagan’s S&L Crash?
Did you bail out the BushCo. Bank Crash?
Did you bail out the Great Recession Auto Companies?
But We The People needs some help, and the subsequent increase in their disposable income purchasing power and you go all Amy Winehouse...NO, NO, NO ,NO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 6:46:35 GMT -5
Are you saying you wouldn't want anyone to take out a student loan ? I am saying I resent having to borrow money to go to a public institution.
is that clear enough?
A public institution that is supported by tax dollars to reduce the cost to students vs a private college ? Which changes that it was your own decision how ?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 26, 2019 7:48:45 GMT -5
i don't know why everyone keeps saying that.
first of all, whether a person is responsible or irresponsible is not really for us to judge. we are not impartial. i might be inclined to be more lenient than i should be, and you might be less so. it should be up to some objective third party to judge.
second, we might not be talking about very much debt. my debt, when i finally torpedoed it in 1999, was $5k.
finally, shit does happen. there should be a path for people that are in distress to get out of it for the fact of making non-malicious simple mistakes, or their own misfortune. i don't need to outline any scenarios. you are an intelligent woman. you can come up with your own.
we need to get to a place in this country where people can take chances and opportunities again. the prospect of being saddled with a lifetime of student loan debt because your job prospects dried up or were outsourced (as an example) just strikes me as morally wrong.
we have had lots of conversations like this, so i will just leave it at that. you know what i would say, anyway.
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
Now maybe we limit the support to certain degrees - STEM degrees, maybe - so we don't have a nation of underwater basket weavers or early Asian Poetry graduates. But really, we should be making sure the smartest, hardest working kids succeed.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 8:32:27 GMT -5
Did you bail out Reagan’s S&L Crash? Did you bail out the BushCo. Bank Crash? Did you bail out the Great Recession Auto Companies? But We The People needs some help, and the subsequent increase in their disposable income purchasing power and you go all Amy Winehouse...NO, NO, NO ,NO. The first two if I thought it was possible to get by from bailing them out, I would have let them die! But I do think that would have taken the Country down with it, the second one more than the first. I personally if I had something to do with it,, there would have been a lot of people in jail, right down to the bank agents that were making loans they knew were no good! One person I know told me, I knew the loans I was processing were NO good, but that was not MY job to stop them.
If I had something to do with it , he would be in jail! Knowingly profiting from fraud! General Motors would be gone!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 8:56:08 GMT -5
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
Now maybe we limit the support to certain degrees - STEM degrees, maybe - so we don't have a nation of underwater basket weavers or early Asian Poetry graduates. But really, we should be making sure the smartest, hardest working kids succeed.
It is kinda strange animal, Yes some one who has the ability, the aptitude, and the intelligence to achieve a goal without needing a bunch of educational welfare. Our own Miss Tequlia, and my youngest son come to mind, Both worked full time jobs along with going to college full time,, they both achieved their goal. I can tell you right now what they would say about student loan forgiveness, with out even asking them. Let's move on to one of my grandsons, Has student loans up the ass, has a Masters degree in Psychology, works as an usher at a movie theater. will probably be going to school for the rest of his life, never with have a job in the fields of his studies,, Again all financed thru student loans, that will never be paid off!! You think that I am going to be willing as a taxpayer to let him out of his student loans?? The cream always rises to the top!!!
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 26, 2019 9:15:42 GMT -5
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
Now maybe we limit the support to certain degrees - STEM degrees, maybe - so we don't have a nation of underwater basket weavers or early Asian Poetry graduates. But really, we should be making sure the smartest, hardest working kids succeed.
It is kinda strange animal, Yes some one who has the ability, the aptitude, and the intelligence to achieve a goal without needing a bunch of educational welfare. Our own Miss Tequlia, and my youngest son come to mind, Both worked full time jobs along with going to college full time,, they both achieved their goal. I can tell you right now what they would say about student loan forgiveness, with out even asking them. Let's move on to one of my grandsons, Has student loans up the ass, has a Masters degree in Psychology, works as an usher at a movie theater. will probably be going to school for the rest of his life, never with have a job in the fields of his studies,, Again all financed thru student loans, that will never be paid off!! You think that I am going to be willing as a taxpayer to let him out of his student loans?? The cream always rises to the top!!!
So did my DH. So did I. We both graduated in the early 80's. My out of state tuition was 800 dollars a semester my senior year of college, going to a state school, graduating in 1982.
Fast forward to my 30 year old son, he was able to get a state scholarship for tuition, we paid room and board. We ended up paying about 5000 per semester - JUST for room and board. If we also had to pay tuition, it would have cost us about 10,000 per semester. For a state school.
Yes it can be done, but it's infinitely harder due to the high cost of tuition. Each kid that decides it's too hard, or they don't want to spend that much time slogging along to get a medical degree, or don't want to take the chance of going into personal debt that he might end up not being able to pay off, is one more highly educated engineer or doctor we lose.
In the long run, countries with lots of well educated STEM people do better than countries who don't. MAGA right?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 26, 2019 9:18:43 GMT -5
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
Now maybe we limit the support to certain degrees - STEM degrees, maybe - so we don't have a nation of underwater basket weavers or early Asian Poetry graduates. But really, we should be making sure the smartest, hardest working kids succeed.
Except in your scenario, only the best and the brightest would be going to college. That isn't the case now. My own niece took on $50k in student loans to get a degree in Marine Biology...with no intention of ever leaving our land-locked state! I tried to talk to her before she started and her answer was "I love dolphins"...and she got a 4 year degree in dolphins and for the last 10 years has worked in the billing office of a doctor's office making $10/hr (maybe slightly more now). And the constant whining and blaming on FB have me wanting to scream. It is the school's fault for not telling her she couldn't do anything with the degree (apparently her college educated aunt how is actually somewhat intelligent telling her not to take on that debt without a plan was not enough). It is the fault of the student loan company for not explaining in detail the concept of interest. I asked her if she knew the interest rate and she said yes, but she didn't understand how it would impact her. I just shake my head So unless we only allow the wealthy or the super smart to take out loans, I do not know how to protect people from their own stupidity.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 26, 2019 9:22:41 GMT -5
It is kinda strange animal, Yes some one who has the ability, the aptitude, and the intelligence to achieve a goal without needing a bunch of educational welfare. Our own Miss Tequlia, and my youngest son come to mind, Both worked full time jobs along with going to college full time,, they both achieved their goal. I can tell you right now what they would say about student loan forgiveness, with out even asking them. Let's move on to one of my grandsons, Has student loans up the ass, has a Masters degree in Psychology, works as an usher at a movie theater. will probably be going to school for the rest of his life, never with have a job in the fields of his studies,, Again all financed thru student loans, that will never be paid off!! You think that I am going to be willing as a taxpayer to let him out of his student loans?? The cream always rises to the top!!!
So did my DH. So did I. We both graduated in the early 80's. My out of state tuition was 800 dollars a semester my senior year of college, going to a state school, graduating in 1982.
Fast forward to my 30 year old son, he was able to get a state scholarship for tuition, we paid room and board. We ended up paying about 5000 per semester - JUST for room and board. If we also had to pay tuition, it would have cost us about 10,000 per semester. For a state school.
Yes it can be done, but it's infinitely harder due to the high cost of tuition. Each kid that decides it's too hard, or they don't want to spend that much time slogging along to get a medical degree, or don't want to take the chance of going into personal debt that he might end up not being able to pay off, is one more highly educated engineer or doctor we lose.
In the long run, countries with lots of well educated STEM people do better than countries who don't. MAGA right?
By the time I graduated, my tuition was $15k a year and my first job out of college only paid $20k the first year. My daughter went to the same school her freshman year and tuition was up to $34k, but the starting salary for the same job that I had is now in the mid-40s for my area. The cost of that school for that degree is no further out of alignment than when I went, the cost and the salaries have risen in-line with each other. Now, if someone wants to get some kind of BS degree in todays world that won't get them about a $20k a year job, that is on them.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 26, 2019 9:35:19 GMT -5
I do think that if a trump can get out of debt by filing bankruptcy, then someone in over their heads with SL debt ought to be able to do the same, especially at the exhorbitant rates they are paying.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jul 26, 2019 9:50:26 GMT -5
Yes, let people with student loans file bankruptcy. Student Loan forgiveness needs to be sold to me. I don't think I am on board. I am afraid I will pay for it, and in the end, the program will not be available to me or my kids due to income limits.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:11:02 GMT -5
i don't know why everyone keeps saying that.
first of all, whether a person is responsible or irresponsible is not really for us to judge. we are not impartial. i might be inclined to be more lenient than i should be, and you might be less so. it should be up to some objective third party to judge.
second, we might not be talking about very much debt. my debt, when i finally torpedoed it in 1999, was $5k.
finally, shit does happen. there should be a path for people that are in distress to get out of it for the fact of making non-malicious simple mistakes, or their own misfortune. i don't need to outline any scenarios. you are an intelligent woman. you can come up with your own.
we need to get to a place in this country where people can take chances and opportunities again. the prospect of being saddled with a lifetime of student loan debt because your job prospects dried up or were outsourced (as an example) just strikes me as morally wrong.
we have had lots of conversations like this, so i will just leave it at that. you know what i would say, anyway.
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
absolutely! it is called federal bankruptcy court. have you heard of it?
thanks for furnishing me with a PERFECT analogy, oc.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 26, 2019 11:12:47 GMT -5
Letting people discharge loans in bankruptcy would solve everything. It would be a somewhat free market solution. Once banks know that the loans are subject to regular bankruptcy laws, they will limit the who, what, when and why they loan. They will stop loaning to people going to scam schools, and favor those with great results. Maybe they will start considering majors, or how many years the student has been going to school. They will cap the loans at a rate that makes sense, giving they are willing to lose a limited amount of money. If virtually unlimited loans are the cause of the cost going up, schools will start looking for ways to bring the cost down. Balance will be restored.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:12:53 GMT -5
I am saying I resent having to borrow money to go to a public institution.
is that clear enough?
A public institution that is supported by tax dollars to reduce the cost to students vs a private college ? Which changes that it was your own decision how ? in the context of this discussion, not at all.
I am grinding a separate axe.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:16:25 GMT -5
Bad luck and really poor judgement happens all the time, So why do I as a taxpayer need to bail out someone that has made poor choices or had some unfortunate circumstance?
Or wait are all of you going to jump in bail O.C. out if I make a poor business decision??
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
we used to understand this as a nation. in fact, we tell our kids this all the time- how much better off they will be if they go to college.
but then the price of education skyrocketed, and now the lending removes most or all of the incentive.
what is the logical conclusion for young people? fuck college. and that is harmful to our long term prospects as a nation.
but clearly the right doesn't care, because they are too busy soaking up the last of our national wealth like a waterspout.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:20:16 GMT -5
It is kinda strange animal, Yes some one who has the ability, the aptitude, and the intelligence to achieve a goal without needing a bunch of educational welfare. Our own Miss Tequlia, and my youngest son come to mind, Both worked full time jobs along with going to college full time,, they both achieved their goal. I can tell you right now what they would say about student loan forgiveness, with out even asking them. Let's move on to one of my grandsons, Has student loans up the ass, has a Masters degree in Psychology, works as an usher at a movie theater. will probably be going to school for the rest of his life, never with have a job in the fields of his studies,, Again all financed thru student loans, that will never be paid off!! You think that I am going to be willing as a taxpayer to let him out of his student loans?? The cream always rises to the top!!!
So did my DH. So did I. We both graduated in the early 80's. My out of state tuition was 800 dollars a semester my senior year of college, going to a state school, graduating in 1982.
Fast forward to my 30 year old son, he was able to get a state scholarship for tuition, we paid room and board. We ended up paying about 5000 per semester - JUST for room and board. If we also had to pay tuition, it would have cost us about 10,000 per semester. For a state school.
Yes it can be done, but it's infinitely harder due to the high cost of tuition. Each kid that decides it's too hard, or they don't want to spend that much time slogging along to get a medical degree, or don't want to take the chance of going into personal debt that he might end up not being able to pay off, is one more highly educated engineer or doctor we lose.
In the long run, countries with lots of well educated STEM people do better than countries who don't. MAGA right?
THIS/\ is the problem.
all of these old farts are saying "I paid off my debt". well...yeah. your debt was 5% of what a student today would have, FOOL.
you could afford to take chances on a Psych degree.
you are basically criticizing people for taking opportunities that YOU HAD, and then getting angry when it ends up: they're fooked.
do you have any perspective?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:22:32 GMT -5
Think of it this way. Maybe 100 out of 1000 kids are 'college material' - they have the brains and the ability to make a good engineer, doctor, whatever. In countries like Germany and Sweden, all 100 of these capable students have the opportunity to go to college. In the US, only that percentage of those 100 kids who have parents with money, or who can get scholarships or who are willing to take on a significant amount of personal debt go through college. So there will be a certain number of students who decide the risk of taking on that debt is not worth it - what if they get injured and can't work, or what if they give birth to a disabled child and need to stay home and care for it - that debt would bankrupt them. So they skip school and we end up with 70 or 80 capable doctors or engineers, and Germany and Sweden get 100.
Isn't it worthwhile for us, as a nation, to make sure all the capable students get the best education they can? Think of it as an investment in our future as a nation.
Now maybe we limit the support to certain degrees - STEM degrees, maybe - so we don't have a nation of underwater basket weavers or early Asian Poetry graduates. But really, we should be making sure the smartest, hardest working kids succeed.
Except in your scenario, only the best and the brightest would be going to college. forgive me for saying so, but everyone should go to college, if for nothing more than one semester and the opportunity to take Logic And Critical Thinking.
college is for the betterment of the mind, and improving your life opportunities. if you are not cut out for Engineering, fine- go to a JC and take some trade classes. but GO.
so, no, not only the best and brightest should go. we should become a better and brighter nation by sending everyone.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:25:33 GMT -5
So did my DH. So did I. We both graduated in the early 80's. My out of state tuition was 800 dollars a semester my senior year of college, going to a state school, graduating in 1982.
Fast forward to my 30 year old son, he was able to get a state scholarship for tuition, we paid room and board. We ended up paying about 5000 per semester - JUST for room and board. If we also had to pay tuition, it would have cost us about 10,000 per semester. For a state school.
Yes it can be done, but it's infinitely harder due to the high cost of tuition. Each kid that decides it's too hard, or they don't want to spend that much time slogging along to get a medical degree, or don't want to take the chance of going into personal debt that he might end up not being able to pay off, is one more highly educated engineer or doctor we lose.
In the long run, countries with lots of well educated STEM people do better than countries who don't. MAGA right?
By the time I graduated, my tuition was $15k a year and my first job out of college only paid $20k the first year. My daughter went to the same school her freshman year and tuition was up to $34k, but the starting salary for the same job that I had is now in the mid-40s for my area. The cost of that school for that degree is no further out of alignment than when I went, the cost and the salaries have risen in-line with each other. Now, if someone wants to get some kind of BS degree in todays world that won't get them about a $20k a year job, that is on them. I am not sure how relevant it is to SOME employers which field you graduate in, so long as you graduate. getting through college looks good on the resume to most employers, and should improve their chances.
so, I agree, if they fail to get a decent job, it is on them, NO MATTER WHAT THE DEGREE.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 26, 2019 11:25:44 GMT -5
If everyone goes to college, wont an associates degree basically end up being the same as a high school diploma?
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 26, 2019 11:27:19 GMT -5
And do we really want a degree required to be a receptionist? Because that is what is starting to happen....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:31:20 GMT -5
Yes, let people with student loans file bankruptcy. Student Loan forgiveness needs to be sold to me. I don't think I am on board. I am afraid I will pay for it, and in the end, the program will not be available to me or my kids due to income limits. bankruptcy courts have tightened up on this issue. in order to discharge student loan debt, you can't simply list your assets (as you can with most bankruptcies). rather, you have to demonstrate that your loans will create an "undue hardship" IN THE FUTURE. it is such a high standard that many won't meet it.
but they will bail out oc for making a bad business decision, because the government is there for businesses, just not regular folks.
if you are not feeling left out yet, you should.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:32:17 GMT -5
If everyone goes to college, wont an associates degree basically end up being the same as a high school diploma? I didn't say graduate.
taking your next question before you ask it: YES. and we will all be much better high school graduates.
what's the problem with that, exactly?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:33:35 GMT -5
And do we really want a degree required to be a receptionist? Because that is what is starting to happen.... you're looking at it backwards, imo.
if the receptionist has the same education as the corporate CEO, what is to stop her from being a corporate CEO?
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 26, 2019 11:36:54 GMT -5
Except if nearly every job requires a degree, what are the approximately 70% of the population without a degree going to do for work?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:43:06 GMT -5
Except if nearly every job requires a degree, what are the approximately 70% of the population without a degree going to do for work? you are chewing on both sides of the sandwich, hurley1980
first you ask me "what if everyone has a degree", now you are complaining about the unfair advantage of not everyone having a degree.
please make up your mind which situation you want to discuss. to be clear: I am happy to discuss EITHER.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 26, 2019 11:49:27 GMT -5
I'm saying I don't think everyone needs or should get a degree for certain jobs. I think pushing school on kids that won't succeed is a bad idea. I don't think everyone should have a degree. That is where I stand. I didn't need a degree to get my job 15 years ago, today I would. I didn't go to school because I wasn't cut out for it....I couldn't figure out what I wanted to study, and didn't want to spend years trying to find out. I went to work, worked my way up, and got some certifications along the way.
If there are kids out there with masters degrees working as ushers, then I am absolutely fucked if I ever lose my job. And the majority of the population would be in the same situation if all jobs required a degree. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, but I think its pretty clear where I stand on all of this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 11:57:04 GMT -5
I'm saying I don't think everyone needs or should get a degree for certain jobs. I think pushing school on kids that won't succeed is a bad idea. I don't think everyone should have a degree. That is where I stand. I didn't need a degree to get my job 15 years ago, today I would. I didn't go to school because I wasn't cut out for it....I couldn't figure out what I wanted to study, and didn't want to spend years trying to find out. I went to work, worked my way up, and got some certifications along the way.
If there are kids out there with masters degrees working as ushers, then I am absolutely fucked if I ever lose my job. And the majority of the population would be in the same situation if all jobs required a degree. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, but I think its pretty clear where I stand on all of this. me neither. I think everyone should go to college for the betterment of their mind.
if they drop out, that's fine. it is worth it to go, just like it is worth it to go to Portugal, if you have the chance.
and I am not saying that "everyone should have a degree", "should be required to have a degree", or "needs a degree". those are separate arguments.
someone asked "what if everyone had a degree", and I replied "that would be great". do I think it is necessary or realistic? no.
so, although I appreciate your final paragraph, and think it should have it's own discussion, it really is not what I am suggesting.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2019 12:02:37 GMT -5
hurley, may I share something with you as an employer?
because of what I pay, I can hire anyone I please. I rarely hire college grads, because there is a quality I am looking for that I see in all races, genders, age groups, and educational backgrounds: a good attitude and a willingness to learn. you get a 6 month probation, during which I can fire you for bad attitude and bad work habits, and if you make it through that, you are hired.
what paper you bring is really not that relevant to me. I am an EOE.
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 26, 2019 13:04:43 GMT -5
Except in your scenario, only the best and the brightest would be going to college. forgive me for saying so, but everyone should go to college, if for nothing more than one semester and the opportunity to take Logic And Critical Thinking.
college is for the betterment of the mind, and improving your life opportunities. if you are not cut out for Engineering, fine- go to a JC and take some trade classes. but GO.
so, no, not only the best and brightest should go. we should become a better and brighter nation by sending everyone.
If EVERYONE needs to have a semester of logic and critical thinking, maybe we should include it in the high school curriculum. Why make people pay ten thousand dollars for a single semester of a class/skill that EVERYONE needs?
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