billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 14:26:01 GMT -5
lol. Thirty kids and, what the hell, a competent teacher could also take care of a non-verbal, non-potty trained human being. Yeah. Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. ... One example: when I was in school in 6th grade, I walked with one other 6th grader 1/4 mile to a crosswalk where we played crossing guard and then walked back to the school. That is now a salaried position. Another: My speech issues when I was young were diagnosed by a community organization sponsored by the Elks. Today it would be done by a public school employee. Each one are "statistically irrelevant outliers". Together they are a significant factor.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 18, 2019 14:46:56 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. They'll have a couple more positions to fill, to take care of the adversity admissions. College is too expensive, we need for it to be free for all walks of life, not just rich people. In the 50s a great many people didn’t graduate high school. And we didn’t have IDEA and FAPE... And even then, increase in public school students is not the same as increase in college attending students... Not to mention, in the older days it was common to have one room school houses in some ag areas. There generally was one teacher for all grades and any people assisting, whether students or parents, did so unpaid. Now we have paid teaching assistants and multigrade classrooms are rarer except maybe at Sunday school. Education was also only required through eight grade, which is why it was more rigorous then and also targeted to math and skills needed by farmers, etc. Our economy is more diverse now.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 18, 2019 14:52:09 GMT -5
Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. Or innuendo affected by quoting partial posts. I will have to stand by my original post, and our education system has become filled with turf protecting educators, taking advantage of the situation. Schooling is the perfect opportunity to display Merican ignorant expertise. "I spent 12/13 years in the public schools from 5/6-18 so I is an expert." People in the know still know what good schools are whether here or in Europe, Asia, etc. There are many ways you can graduate from HS here - barely, with a HS diploma years after dropping out, average, going to college, going early to college because of intellect or sports prowness (sp?) This is true in other countries and they set up their systems different than ours. Generally, the below average student from other countries never make it to our colleges unless they are gifted in sports or gifted with rich parents.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 20, 2019 14:46:12 GMT -5
Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. ... One example: when I was in school in 6th grade, I walked with one other 6th grader 1/4 mile to a crosswalk where we played crossing guard and then walked back to the school. That is now a salaried position. Another: My speech issues when I was young were diagnosed by a community organization sponsored by the Elks. Today it would be done by a public school employee. Each one are "statistically irrelevant outliers". Together they are a significant factor. that was the same on the other side of the "big puddle" where I grew up. When my sons were in elementary school, it would be one child volunteer paired with one parent volunteer. I don't know what they do now but I sincerely doubt crossing guards are paid in the Netherlands today. Maybe grandparents are helping out.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 20, 2019 14:55:32 GMT -5
Schooling is the perfect opportunity to display Merican ignorant expertise. "I spent 12/13 years in the public schools from 5/6-18 so I is an expert." People in the know still know what good schools are whether here or in Europe, Asia, etc. There are many ways you can graduate from HS here - barely, with a HS diploma years after dropping out, average, going to college, going early to college because of intellect or sports prowness (sp?) This is true in other countries and they set up their systems different than ours. Generally, the below average student from other countries never make it to our colleges unless they are gifted in sports or gifted with rich parents. Sports prowess counts for very little here. You might get a tiny scholarship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 8:44:12 GMT -5
Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. ... One example: when I was in school in 6th grade, I walked with one other 6th grader 1/4 mile to a crosswalk where we played crossing guard and then walked back to the school. That is now a salaried position. Another: My speech issues when I was young were diagnosed by a community organization sponsored by the Elks. Today it would be done by a public school employee. Each one are "statistically irrelevant outliers". Together they are a significant factor. "Together they are a significant factor". Finally, an actual answer. Now that's a pearl of wisdom. Sorry if I wasn't really paying attention to the other drivel.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 21, 2019 8:57:13 GMT -5
One example: when I was in school in 6th grade, I walked with one other 6th grader 1/4 mile to a crosswalk where we played crossing guard and then walked back to the school. That is now a salaried position. Another: My speech issues when I was young were diagnosed by a community organization sponsored by the Elks. Today it would be done by a public school employee. Each one are "statistically irrelevant outliers". Together they are a significant factor. "Together they are a significant factor". Finally, an actual answer. Now that's a pearl of wisdom. My previous response relayed to the "(i)ntroduction of higher needs special education students into public schools instead of institutionalizing them and court ordered services for them" was to challenge your claim that such "could be easily covered by existing staff." That is why I singled out that one statement from your post to quote.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 9:02:31 GMT -5
"Together they are a significant factor". Finally, an actual answer. Now that's a pearl of wisdom. ...That is why I singled out that one statement from your post to quote. But no way answers for a 4x increase in staffing as you were stating it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 21, 2019 9:12:58 GMT -5
...That is why I singled out that one statement from your post to quote. But no way answers for a 4x increase in staffing as you were stating it. Yes, exactly. Busy day so need to run for now. Back later. Have a great day.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 21, 2019 10:52:49 GMT -5
People in the know still know what good schools are whether here or in Europe, Asia, etc. There are many ways you can graduate from HS here - barely, with a HS diploma years after dropping out, average, going to college, going early to college because of intellect or sports prowness (sp?) This is true in other countries and they set up their systems different than ours. Generally, the below average student from other countries never make it to our colleges unless they are gifted in sports or gifted with rich parents. Sports prowess counts for very little here. You might get a tiny scholarship. Again coming back to my home country. You wouldn't get any scholarship for your sports prowess. You actually have to petition to keep your spot at university to take a break for a year if you are training for something like say... a world championship or the olympics. Then again, sports teams are not affiliated with schools at all, they are more regional.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 21, 2019 14:37:36 GMT -5
This is just me thinking out loud for the increase FTE.
In our school district, we have 35 students who range from emotionally disturbed, which means they cannot function in a regular classroom due to their severe behavior.
to students who are mildly intellectually disabled. Some of them are able to walk around and talk to people.
Others have high-functioning autism.
Some have an IQ in the 50 - 75 range.
to "adaptive life skills". This means they cannot function on their own. They will never be able to live on their own. Some have low-functioning autism.
Others are quadriplegic and non-verbal. Others have down syndrome. Etc.
For those 35 students, there are five full-time certified teachers twelve adult aides who work about .75FTE a secretary who spends at least .25FTE on their paperwork that goes to the state. an administrator who spends at least .25FTE on managing their programs. a behavior specialist whom I think is around a .2FTE (one day per week)
None of those job positions existed prior to IDEA. And, in number theory (but not actual education theory), 35 students should only require one adult.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 21, 2019 14:38:49 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 21, 2019 17:47:38 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not. But what causes the inequality? I used to live in a very large school district. It was a huge area all in one district. I lived in the affluent section and our kids went to one school. But just 20 minutes away was poverty. Two elementary schools had kids that were consistently below in state testing and well below the kids in our school. These kids had the same school resources, same curriculum, same quality of teachers (some good, some bad). Unfortunately what they didn’t have (not all, but a good majority) was a stable home life, parents who didn’t value school, kids with zero respect because they weren’t taught it at home, gangs in the upper levels, etc Our state has a law that if a school was failing the kids could transfer to a better school within the district (our school!). I can tell you that very few people took advantage of this. So yeah, you can give these kids bonus points to get them into college but are they really going to be prepared? Or are we now going to expect colleges to teach at high school level so everyone can succeed? Edited to add: while I lived in an affluent section, kids from blue collar areas went to our school. But these were not distressed blue collar areas.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 21, 2019 19:12:12 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not. But what causes the inequality? I used to live in a very large school district. It was a huge area all in one district. I lived in the affluent section and our kids went to one school. But just 20 minutes away was poverty. Two elementary schools had kids that were consistently below in state testing and well below the kids in our school. These kids had the same school resources, same curriculum, same quality of teachers (some good, some bad). Unfortunately what they didn’t have (not all, but a good majority) was a stable home life, parents who didn’t value school, kids with zero respect because they weren’t taught it at home, gangs in the upper levels, etc Our state has a law that if a school was failing the kids could transfer to a better school within the district (our school!). I can tell you that very few people took advantage of this. So yeah, you can give these kids bonus points to get them into college but are they really going to be prepared? Or are we now going to expect colleges to teach at high school level so everyone can succeed? Edited to add: while I lived in an affluent section, kids from blue collar areas went to our school. But these were not distressed blue collar areas. I do understand what you're saying. However, I'd ask you and the two (at this point) people who chose to "like" your post to consider that regardless of what you think causes this problem of students having access to colleges, there is an opportunity gap. Even if the opportunity could be solved by better adulting and subsequent parenting, that would still take over 30 years to take effect assuming everything just magically happened with births that occurred nine months from today.
Keep in mind, I didn't refer to an "intelligence gap" or to a "work ethic gap". The "pick yourself up by your boot straps" and "This is America; anyone can succeed" plans aren't actually working.
I know that you overcame a destitute childhood and not just went to college but have been successful as an adult regarding your job and your income. I know that I was three months pregnant when I graduated from high school, chose to keep my baby, and I still have a bachelor's degree, master's degree, and am self-sufficient. YOU AND I ARE THE EXCEPTION. You and I have significantly above average determination and IQs. Also, and I know you mildly disagree with this being a divisor: you and I are white.
If putting an adversity score on the SATs helps any kid get into a college even just for a year's worth of it, then I think it's worth having that score. If we want to more adolescents to have opportunities, then the education system (public K-12 and college and trade schools) needs to create and promote those opportunities in ways for students to access them.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 22, 2019 2:37:23 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not. But what causes the inequality? I used to live in a very large school district. It was a huge area all in one district. I lived in the affluent section and our kids went to one school. But just 20 minutes away was poverty. Two elementary schools had kids that were consistently below in state testing and well below the kids in our school. These kids had the same school resources, same curriculum, same quality of teachers (some good, some bad). Unfortunately what they didn’t have (not all, but a good majority) was a stable home life, parents who didn’t value school, kids with zero respect because they weren’t taught it at home, gangs in the upper levels, etc Our state has a law that if a school was failing the kids could transfer to a better school within the district (our school!). I can tell you that very few people took advantage of this. So yeah, you can give these kids bonus points to get them into college but are they really going to be prepared? Or are we now going to expect colleges to teach at high school level so everyone can succeed? Edited to add: while I lived in an affluent section, kids from blue collar areas went to our school. But these were not distressed blue collar areas. so, you have stated a problem.
what is your solution?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2019 9:18:58 GMT -5
But what causes the inequality? I used to live in a very large school district. It was a huge area all in one district. I lived in the affluent section and our kids went to one school. But just 20 minutes away was poverty. Two elementary schools had kids that were consistently below in state testing and well below the kids in our school. These kids had the same school resources, same curriculum, same quality of teachers (some good, some bad). Unfortunately what they didn’t have (not all, but a good majority) was a stable home life, parents who didn’t value school, kids with zero respect because they weren’t taught it at home, gangs in the upper levels, etc Our state has a law that if a school was failing the kids could transfer to a better school within the district (our school!). I can tell you that very few people took advantage of this. So yeah, you can give these kids bonus points to get them into college but are they really going to be prepared? Or are we now going to expect colleges to teach at high school level so everyone can succeed? Edited to add: while I lived in an affluent section, kids from blue collar areas went to our school. But these were not distressed blue collar areas. I do understand what you're saying. However, I'd ask you and the two (at this point) people who chose to "like" your post to consider that regardless of what you think causes this problem of students having access to colleges, there is an opportunity gap. Even if the opportunity could be solved by better adulting and subsequent parenting, that would still take over 30 years to take effect assuming everything just magically happened with births that occurred nine months from today.
Keep in mind, I didn't refer to an "intelligence gap" or to a "work ethic gap". The "pick yourself up by your boot straps" and "This is America; anyone can succeed" plans aren't actually working.
I know that you overcame a destitute childhood and not just went to college but have been successful as an adult regarding your job and your income. I know that I was three months pregnant when I graduated from high school, chose to keep my baby, and I still have a bachelor's degree, master's degree, and am self-sufficient. YOU AND I ARE THE EXCEPTION. You and I have significantly above average determination and IQs. Also, and I know you mildly disagree with this being a divisor: you and I are white.
If putting an adversity score on the SATs helps any kid get into a college even just for a year's worth of it, then I think it's worth having that score. If we want to more adolescents to have opportunities, then the education system (public K-12 and college and trade schools) needs to create and promote those opportunities in ways for students to access them. I do agree that there is an opportunity gap. But I disagree with giving someone preferential treatment because they lost the parental lottery. I don't have the answers and I don't know how you change culture. I do know that I went to two years at a Community College and that really helped prepare me for "real" college. I was not a stupid person but I barely passed high school. I was woefully unprepared for a college course load. I had to learn how to study, learn how to write papers, learn proper grammar (still not my strong suit!). I had a lot of work to do to improve me before I was ready for college. Community college has prep classes for people who need help gaining the skill set needed for college. At least mine does. They are zero credit classes but if people take advantage of them, they will give them the fundamentals they need for college. Programs like this is where people should be put, instead of giving "adversity bonus points" to get them into a college setting for which they are not prepared. And like it or not, people need to work on the way they speak. I came from the land of double negatives, saying things like "I seen", etc. I worked very hard to try to speak like an educated person once I got to college. you can't speak like trash and expect to excel in this world. You can be the smartest person out there, but you won't make it through an interview if you can't speak correctly. As for it being worth it, even if they only make it through one year of school, I have to disagree with this. First, that means that an opportunity was taken from someone else who was more qualified. Second, there is a big cost to going to college. Should taxpayers foot the bill for this or will the already disadvantaged person now be stuck with a year's worth of college loan to pay off with no career opportunities?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2019 12:15:41 GMT -5
But what causes the inequality? I used to live in a very large school district. It was a huge area all in one district. I lived in the affluent section and our kids went to one school. But just 20 minutes away was poverty. Two elementary schools had kids that were consistently below in state testing and well below the kids in our school. These kids had the same school resources, same curriculum, same quality of teachers (some good, some bad). Unfortunately what they didn’t have (not all, but a good majority) was a stable home life, parents who didn’t value school, kids with zero respect because they weren’t taught it at home, gangs in the upper levels, etc Our state has a law that if a school was failing the kids could transfer to a better school within the district (our school!). I can tell you that very few people took advantage of this. So yeah, you can give these kids bonus points to get them into college but are they really going to be prepared? Or are we now going to expect colleges to teach at high school level so everyone can succeed? Edited to add: while I lived in an affluent section, kids from blue collar areas went to our school. But these were not distressed blue collar areas. so, you have stated a problem.
what is your solution?
I didn't see this when I replied to Chloe but I think my reply to her fits this, as well.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 22, 2019 17:02:34 GMT -5
so, you have stated a problem.
what is your solution?
I didn't see this when I replied to Chloe but I think my reply to her fits this, as well. back in the 50's, a 4 year college education was paid for.
how do you like that idea?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 22, 2019 17:08:21 GMT -5
There's been some interesting information on this coming out in the last few days.
If you check out these sources, you'll get a better sense of what data goes into the score (it's all derived from census tract data), how the black box algorithm works (the implication is that it is percentiles, percentiles, percentiles) and whether students will ever see their scores (the College Board president seemed walking back secrecy at a furious pace).
It is still unclear to me just how fast the roll-out of these scores will be. I'm not sure that 100% of colleges will be getting the ECD next year.
I'm confident saying that students will start getting these scores and the rest of the ECD very soon. The alternative to giving students these scores is to have students and their parents and their college counselors wheedle or demand it from college admissions officials. Having this information only available to the pushiest and best connected is completely untenable. These scores will not remain hidden for long.
Once the scores start getting disclosed, or possibly while they are still leaking, we will get some pretty good insight into how they are calculated and what they are in any given year.
It will be very interesting to see whether the crime stats for a census tract continue to be part of the student neighborhood score. I look forward to what numbers nerds have to say about the inclusion of this data point.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2019 17:12:12 GMT -5
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 22, 2019 17:31:10 GMT -5
OT, but I hate the basket-weaving metaphor. We need a metaphor that reflects our 50%ish graduation rate and how one of the students sitting next to you in the required freshman class is there to warm a seat and pay tuition for a couple of years before dropping out with educational debt that they are poorly positioned to repay. Those folks are subsidizing the tuition of those who do graduate and the cost to them is absolutely devastating.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 22, 2019 21:15:24 GMT -5
we don't have to pay for everything. we can pay for skills that we need as a country.
like that idea any better?
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oped
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Post by oped on May 23, 2019 6:40:23 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not. Son called last night saying he was feeling his privileged white boy ... A classmate asked to see his apartment because he wants in that building next year. Son said sure... but realized that given he's in a 'your own room' space and the classmate would be in shared rooms it wasn't exactly comparable. And the classmate was shit man when he saw son's computer and cinteq and tech play things. (He didn't mention this to classmate, but when it came to the research project in Japan this fall, there was no question if he wanted to go and got in it was paid for...) He also benefits from having parents who have been to college. I've read recently about how difficult it is not just for both urban and rural students, low income and not, to adapt to different environments for college. My son is an ok student. Smart, but not necessarily as organized or motivated as he should be. He struggled with anxiety and depression. But I have the resources to make sure he gets the help and supports he needs, that he gets his own room and space that he needs, that he has the tools to mitigate and ease processes... not everyone is so lucky. At least he knows it... AND No one majors in fucking basketweaving. Deal with reality.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 23, 2019 7:35:17 GMT -5
Regarding the disadvantage scoring, as an educator, I do think it's important. So many (white, upper middle class/rich) people truly believe that an equal opportunity system exists in the US. It simply does not. Son called last night saying he was feeling his privileged white boy ... A classmate asked to see his apartment because he wants in that building next year. Son said sure... but realized that given he's in a 'your own room' space and the classmate would be in shared rooms it wasn't exactly comparable. And the classmate was shit man when he saw son's computer and cinteq and tech play things. (He didn't mention this to classmate, but when it came to the research project in Japan this fall, there was no question if he wanted to go and got in it was paid for...) He also benefits from having parents who have been to college. I've read recently about how difficult it is not just for both urban and rural students, low income and not, to adapt to different environments for college. My son is an ok student. Smart, but not necessarily as organized or motivated as he should be. He struggled with anxiety and depression. But I have the resources to make sure he gets the help and supports he needs, that he gets his own room and space that he needs, that he has the tools to mitigate and ease processes... not everyone is so lucky. At least he knows it... AND No one majors in fucking basketweaving. Deal with reality. sorry...I will say "useless degree" from now on since it seems to trigger you so much. Not sure why him being white has anything to do with this. Do you think there are no black kids who are just as privileged?
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oped
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Post by oped on May 23, 2019 7:44:35 GMT -5
I think it’s a numbers game and there are disproportionately more white privilege kids than nonwhite... and ultimately white privilege is a contributing factor.
Triggered. Funny.
What is a useless degree again? Since no one can ever seem to name anything but basketweaving as an example...
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